Acceptable Accuracy?

[Tim_WNC]

For PRS style matches, what is acceptable accuracy for a gas gun? Figure a middle of the pack, social shooter, nobody's buying him a jersey type...

Is a 1 MOA gun - 6.5 Grendel - acceptable to compete without being woefully undergunned? Or would MOA be considered a true hindrance, sorta the pump shotgun and single stack pistol of the 3Gun world?

 

[hlee]

Targets are usually pretty generous, however, you will see 1 MOA targets not infrequently. My son and I both shoot 6.5 grendels and for me the biggest issue is the wind. And, while it is a 1000 yard cartridge on paper, my experience is that is a bridge too far. That said, it's not the cartridge holding me back- that honor goes to my wind reading skills.

If you are in it to have fun, the Grendel is super fun to shoot. If you're in it to climb up the leader board, more speed and/or higher BC can be had elsewhere.

 

[SD Carpenter]

People are competitive with 223 and 308. It's a definitely a cartridge you can have fun with.

 

[Tim_WNC]

People are competitive with 223 and 308. It's a definitely a cartridge you can have fun with.

I'm referring to the rifle itself, not the cartridge. The best I'm getting out of this rifle is right at 1MOA, which is a far cry from the 0.5 I'm getting out of the bolt gun. So, I'm trying to determine if that's acceptable for a gasser, or I feel I need to do something else.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

You’re gonna be undergunned taking a gas gun to a bolt gun match any way you slice it. There may be a gas gun class but you still shoot the same course of fire, and you still finish the same overall.

 

[SD Carpenter]

You'll be fine. Most matches are 2-3 moa for props and prone are 1-2ish moa depending on distance... And how messed up the match director is that day lol

 

[anotherwannabe]

If your gas gun -really- shoots 200 rounds without a single feeding or ejecting issue, you’ll be ahead of the game vs everyone else shooting a gas gun. I don’t think I’ve ever had a gas gun in my squad that made it through a match without a headache.

made up but broadly true stats - 75% of shots will be inside 700 yards. as long as you don’t kick yourself on the further stages, a grendel is fine for most shots.

guys win with straight brs

 

[Lawless]

A true sub minute AR, all the time barring driver error, is a good rifle.

 

[hitman]

I think people and me included here get too wrapped up in shooting 1/2 moa groups. Trust me I chase it down the rabbit hole a lot as well! I have guns that do it and better and I have guns that do not. I find myself wanting to re-barrel my 1 moa guns but then I ask myself why? I had a good buddy who was an amazing competition shooter and said as long as a rifle shot 1 moa he did not care because like someone else said the wind is the real enemy at distance. So if a gun shoots 1/2 moa it does not mean you are shooting a 3" group at 600 yds. Some may with luck etc and once in a blue moon but not likely with a .223 or 6.5 Grendel on any regular basis. Even a 1 moa gun should bang a steel silloute at 600-800 yds pretty easily. So, yes shooting little bitty groups at 100 and 200 is amazing fun but is it needed to do well in comps and bang steel- no.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

I think people and me included here get too wrapped up in shooting 1/2 moa groups. Trust me I chase it down the rabbit hole a lot as well! I have guns that do it and better and I have guns that do not. I find myself wanting to re-barrel my 1 moa guns but then I ask myself why? I had a good buddy who was an amazing competition shooter and said as long as a rifle shot 1 moa he did not care because like someone else said the wind is the real enemy at distance. So if a gun shoots 1/2 moa it does not mean you are shooting a 3" group at 600 yds. Some may with luck etc and once in a blue moon but not likely with a .223 or 6.5 Grendel on any regular basis. Even a 1 moa gun should bang a steel silloute at 600-800 yds pretty easily. So, yes shooting little bitty groups at 100 and 200 is amazing fun but is it needed to do well in comps and bang steel- no.

Accuracy is a variable just like wind is a variable. Stacking one variable on another won't give an equal result as just one of the variables alone. Give a shooter two identical rifles one shooting 1/2moa and one shooting 1moa and his result at distance is still going to be a tighter group with the more accurate rifle. Whether it's enough for a hit or miss is going to depend on how small the target is.

No competitive shooter is going to go into a PRS match with a 1moa gun, and they're not going to win if they do either. Guys winning PRS matches are shooting sub 1/4moa guns. If 1MOA got it done everybody would be running stock barreled actions and factory ammo. Not building positional benchrest rifles and loading ammo meticulously with lab grade scales and shit.

 

[hitman]

I missed the prs match part. Too early and not enough coffee when I glanced at the post. I thought he meant is 1 moa acceptable to compete etc.. in general. But a 1/4 moa gun at 100 yds is not a 2" gun at 800 at least on any regular basis- group after group. If they can then right on! I would love to see someone shot 5 groups of 5 rds at 800 yds that measured 2"! I would agree 100% that it does make a difference shooting a 1/2" gun vs a 1 moa gun out to 600 but after that with a .223 or even 6.5 Grendel a 1-2 mph wrong wind call or wind shift will open a group up. And you are talking about top guys here and he is just starting so I think chasing 1/2 moa or less may not be the best endeavor when it is better to compete, learn, learn wind and all the other stuff then upgrade to a more accurate set up later. I know you want to have the most accurate rifle possible to mitigate variables but all I am saying is people sometimes chase these things when time and money is spent more else where and there is a point of diminishing returns. For a beginner compt. especially. Give a top shooter a 1/4 moa gun and a 1 moa an yes I agree 100% the results are going to be different. Give a new competitor a 1/4 moa gun and a 1 moa gun and shoot groups at 800 and I will bet money the results will not be noticeable at all and even if so it will be marginal.

 

[RyanScott]

If your gas gun -really- shoots 200 rounds without a single feeding or ejecting issue, you’ll be ahead of the game vs everyone else shooting a gas gun. I don’t think I’ve ever had a gas gun in my squad that made it through a match without a headache.

made up but broadly true stats - 75% of shots will be inside 700 yards. as long as you don’t kick yourself on the further stages, a grendel is fine for most shots.

guys win with straight brs

I don’t have a lot of large frame experience but I would expect a 5.56 to go 3-4,000 rounds between malfunctions.

 

[Docsherm]

I'm referring to the rifle itself, not the cartridge. The best I'm getting out of this rifle is right at 1MOA, which is a far cry from the 0.5 I'm getting out of the bolt gun. So, I'm trying to determine if that's acceptable for a gasser, or I feel I need to do something else.

I have a Noveske barreled 308 AR. It is a true .5 MOA gun and better at times if I do my part.

As for reliability, i have about 2k through it and the only malfunction i have had was when i had a blown primer stuck in my trugger from crap ammo......... that i ever should have shot. That was on me.... not the rifle.

 

[Docsherm]

If your gas gun -really- shoots 200 rounds without a single feeding or ejecting issue, you’ll be ahead of the game vs everyone else shooting a gas gun. I don’t think I’ve ever had a gas gun in my squad that made it through a match without a headache.

made up but broadly true stats - 75% of shots will be inside 700 yards. as long as you don’t kick yourself on the further stages, a grendel is fine for most shots.

guys win with straight brs

If people are having malfunctions every 200 or so rounds they need a new rifle. If i had any weapon that did that it would be fixed immediately or broken down for parts. ........ or sold on BARFCOM......

 

[anotherwannabe]

I hear you on the reliability, but I kid you not. In addition to guys shooting their personal builds, I can think of at least three well known manufacturer reps shooting their guns that had issues. When you see them stripping mags out like a gorilla or stock banging to get the bolt back, not exactly good advertising.

Helluva nice guys shooting them though ?

 

[redneckbmxer24]

If people are having malfunctions every 200 or so rounds they need a new rifle. If i had any weapon that did that it would be fixed immediately or broken down for parts. ........ or sold on BARFCOM......

There were numerous factors, but I saw plenty of it in the few DMR matches I shot. IMO the biggest factor is the dust at maand port door covers being open for chamber flags. Rifles get pretty dirty at a precision rifle match. They’re sitting on the ground all day for two days in different areas with an entire squads gear, and said squad walking all around the gear kicking up dust. These facilities that hold matches seem to either be really dusty or really muddy, and AR15’s have a cover for a reason.

Add to that a bunch of parted together rifles that most are just barely tuned to function under ideal conditions and be super soft shooting, some with less than ideal quality of parts and you’re gonna see issues. One particularly dusty match I even watched a factory DD rifle and a JP have problems on the second day.

My rifle never gave me issues but it was all top tier parts except the barrel (a very good shooting BA SPR), I ran the gas block a little more open, I never ran a can, and I started with a very well greased BCG.

 

[Docsherm]

There were numerous factors, but I saw plenty of it in the few DMR matches I shot. IMO the biggest factor is the dust at maand port door covers being open for chamber flags. Rifles get pretty dirty at a precision rifle match. They’re sitting on the ground all day for two days in different areas with an entire squads gear, and said squad walking all around the gear kicking up dust. These facilities that hold matches seem to either be really dusty or really muddy, and AR15’s have a cover for a reason.

Add to that a bunch of parted together rifles that most are just barely tuned to function under ideal conditions and be super soft shooting, some with less than ideal quality of parts and you’re gonna see issues. One particularly dusty match I even watched a factory DD rifle and a JP have problems on the second day.

My rifle never gave me issues but it was all top tier parts except the barrel (a very good shooting BA SPR), I ran the gas block a little more open, I never ran a can, and I started with a very well greased BCG.

Those BA barrels are nice. I am glad that you have a solid 308. Do you hsve an adjustable gas block because you were having issues with it? Or just because you wanted one?


I sounds like a lot of people who don't understand what proper gas porting is..... even the company's that were out there.

I can't tell you the last rime i cleaned my rifles. I build them to run. 90% of the time i have a can on my 308 so it get really dirty. I also shoot rapid fire, multiple targe, moving from one area to another drills with it. Still runs.

My point if that if a semi auto can fun a slow fire PRS course without a a failure every 200 rounds or so...... there is an issue with it.

 

[RobertTheTexan]

If people are having malfunctions every 200 or so rounds they need a new rifle. If i had any weapon that did that it would be fixed immediately or broken down for parts. ........ or sold on BARFCOM......

I agree with Doc. 200 rds without a failure is setting the bar extremely low for a malfunction-free AR, especially if they are running decent ammo. If that’s the case they should invest in a quality rifle.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

Those BA barrels are nice. I am glad that you have a solid 308. Do you hsve an adjustable gas block because you were having issues with it? Or just because you wanted one?


I sounds like a lot of people who don't understand what proper gas porting is..... even the company's that were out there.

I can't tell you the last rime i cleaned my rifles. I build them to run. 90% of the time i have a can on my 308 so it get really dirty. I also shoot rapid fire, multiple targe, moving from one area to another drills with it. Still runs.

My point if that if a semi auto can fun a slow fire PRS course without a a failure every 200 rounds or so...... there is an issue with it.

That rifle was a 223 Wylde. BA’s premium barrels are great for the money when you get a good one. Their quality has definitely slipped from what they were a few years ago

I used a Seekins adjustable gas block on that one. That rifle was all Seekins except the barrel, trigger, CH, brake and buffer. Adjustable gas block was to tune it since it had a low mass carrier, and JP silent captured buffer. I also shot it suppressed some so I’d turn the gas back a little for that too. It was 100% reliable suppressed or unsuppressed but I never ran it more than a few hundred rounds suppressed without wiping it down and lubing.

 

[Docsherm]

That rifle was a 223 Wylde. BA’s premium barrels are great for the money when you get a good one. Their quality has definitely slipped from what they were a few years ago

I used a Seekins adjustable gas block on that one. That rifle was all Seekins except the barrel, trigger, CH, brake and buffer. Adjustable gas block was to tune it since it had a low mass carrier, and JP silent captured buffer. I also shot it suppressed some so I’d turn the gas back a little for that too. It was 100% reliable suppressed or unsuppressed but I never ran it more than a few hundred rounds suppressed without wiping it down and lubing.

Have you had a bad barrel recently? I just got a few and see no difference. Do you have any specifics? I would be interested in knowing what issues you have seen.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

Have you had a bad barrel recently? I just got a few and see no difference. Do you have any specifics? I would be interested in knowing what issues you have seen.

I’ve personally only had a few of their barrels, but put quite few together for people. A friend of mine bought the same SPR barrel earlier this year off my recommendation for a budget barrel and it shoots right right at MOA with premium match ammo. I know it’s not him or his building skills either because he’s got a Craddock 224V that’s a one hole gun.

I put together a large frame rifle for a buddy of mine from parts he had accumulated (mostly Aero) with an Aero SS 308 barrel that I didn’t know at the time was the same as BA. It was shooting 1.5MOA+ with everything. Double checked everything on the rifle and optic, same result. He ordered a Douglas barrel from compass lake and we swapped that and all of a sudden he had a one hole gun with FGMM.

I saw a thread a few days ago where a guy got the same barrel and got a bad one, BA sent him a second that’s a dud too. BA definitely seems to roll out some duds. Can’t expect perfection for that price though.

 

[FisherT&C]

For PRS style matches, what is acceptable accuracy for a gas gun? Figure a middle of the pack, social shooter, nobody's buying him a jersey type...

Is a 1 MOA gun - 6.5 Grendel - acceptable to compete without being woefully undergunned? Or would MOA be considered a true hindrance, sorta the pump shotgun and single stack pistol of the 3Gun world?

I would prefer a 3/4 MOA with SD around 10 and a ES in the low 20's to be competitive and have a good time.

 

[Jsp556]

If your gas gun -really- shoots 200 rounds without a single feeding or ejecting issue, you’ll be ahead of the game vs everyone else shooting a gas gun. I don’t think I’ve ever had a gas gun in my squad that made it through a match without a headache.

And this is why gamer gizmos and other nonsensical crap has no place on a rifle that may be called upon for an offensive or defensive purpose.

 

[hlee]

Stuck bolts, stuck cases, mag malfunctions, trigger issues, I've seen them all at our local match. I swear the biggest culprit seems to be bad mags. Oh wait, we're talking about GAS guns? That's the shit I usually see with bolt guns. I swear it's rare to get through a stage without someone having a mag issue on a bolt gun.

I had the bolt shroud on my RPR break during a match, requiring me to remove the stock and receiver extension to remedy. The cocking piece rotated in the receiver extension, preventing me from closing the bolt, preventing me from folding the stock to remove the broken piece. I noticed it between stages. Thankfully, I had the tools to do it and got it torn down and back up before my turn in the rotation on the next stage.

I've had mags barf their rounds up into the action upon seating. Magpul AICS

I've had followers tilt during chambering such that the next cartridge nose dives into the mag, then pushes ass end back into the action, preventing chambering. Magpul AICS

I'm sure if you search your memory banks, everyone remembers multiple people (per match?) finger fucking their action to get a mag issue resolved, on the clock, using a bolt gun.

That said, we had a guy that was running a 6.5 creedmoor gas gun with Calvin Elite trigger. He doubled that trigger so much in that match he went to single loading. Haven't seen him since. I had one stage with a balky mag (Alexander Arms 17 rnd 6.5 Grendel mag) and had to clear the rifle twice to finish. Still finished under time and clean. I think that was the only stage I cleaned at that match. Stress is a wonderful thing. Went to another mag and no more issues. That's the only ar15 issue I've had at a match. The next one will probably be a dumpster fire now that I put that in writing.

Not many gas guns show up- usually 5 or 6 in a 80+ shooter field- so there's not much data I can draw from. However, gas guns get a bad rap for being unreliable, but no one seems to bat an eye when a bolt gun gets temperamental. It's way more common that most will admit. Hell, peruse the bolt gun section and you'll see it is pretty common.

Maintain it and an AR15 is plenty reliable for PRS. The 6.5 Grendel is a great round, but you have less margin for error on your wind call using the relatively slow and BC challenged bullets. Targets are sufficiently large that 1 MOA won't be a hinderance for a casual shooter. Some cannot fathom going to a match to have fun. If you're there to hang out with like minded shooters, shoot the shit, shoot some steel, and get away from the house for the day, a 1moa Grendel AR15 won't disappoint. If, however, you think that if you ain't firstest, you're the worstest, you'll be disappointed...

 

[Tim_WNC]

Maintain it and an AR15 is plenty reliable for PRS. The 6.5 Grendel is a great round, but you have less margin for error on your wind call using the relatively slow and BC challenged bullets. Targets are sufficiently large that 1 MOA won't be a hinderance for a casual shooter. Some cannot fathom going to a match to have fun. If you're there to hang out with like minded shooters, shoot the shit, shoot some steel, and get away from the house for the day, a 1moa Grendel AR15 won't disappoint. If, however, you think that if you ain't firstest, you're the worstest, you'll be disappointed...

thank you,. that's what I was after.

 

[Bowhntr6pt]

I saw a thread a few days ago where a guy got the same barrel and got a bad one, BA sent him a second that’s a dud too. BA definitely seems to roll out some duds. Can’t expect perfection for that price though.

That was my rifle... the upper is at Allen Engineering at the moment getting my AEM5 suppressor fixed due to the baffle/end cap strike.

I have two BA barrels in 6.5 Grendel and they shoot good... I have five Aero M5 builds all with BA barrels in .308 and they too shoot good.

I have no idea what's up with the build and two barrels that are giving me a fit. I swear I've checked everything I can think of... scope tracks, everything is tight, tried another new upper receiver when I assembled the replacement barrel, tried a different bolt to address possible headspace issues, various ammo shoots well in other AR rifles, I just can't pin anything down as to why I'm getting bad groups and the wild ass flyers.

I've pretty much decided to let Compass Lake spin me a Douglas and then go from there.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

That was my rifle... the upper is at Allen Engineering at the moment getting my AEM5 suppressor fixed due to the baffle/end cap strike.

I have two BA barrels in 6.5 Grendel and they shoot good... I have five Aero M5 builds all with BA barrels in .308 and they too shoot good.

I have no idea what's up with the build and two barrels that are giving me a fit. I swear I've checked everything I can think of... scope tracks, everything is tight, tried another new upper receiver when I assembled the replacement barrel, tried a different bolt to address possible headspace issues, various ammo shoots well in other AR rifles, I just can't pin anything down as to why I'm getting bad groups and the wild ass flyers.

I've pretty much decided to let Compass Lake spin me a Douglas and then go from there.

I'd say you got unlucky twice, I doubt that will be the same experience with the CLE though. They are top notch barrels.

 

[chrome]

Thanks for the info on BA. I recently picked up an upper in the exchange last month with one of their 13.7 as barrels. First time I've owned one of their products. First range session yielded barely sub-MOA groups with 75gr match ammo, and a 8x S&B on it. 55 fmj plinking ammo opened up to 3-4 MOA.

Time will tell on reliability and sustained groups. Will report back.

 

[Billiam1211]

I have a 308 gas gun that I ran at a few matches last year. It typically shoots 3/4 MOA but for some reason groups opened way up recently. What I found running it at matches is that I did just fine. Most matches are won 600 yards and in. Super small targets like the last 2 plates on a KYL were really hard. I took my 2 or 3 and moved on. Also, a couple stages messed me up where my ejection port was right up against a wall. I don't think I timed out on a single stage though

 

[Belisarius]

I've had great luck with my ar