PRS Talk Accuracy International AT vs Custom rifle for PRS

[Slate264]

Looking for some advise and input regarding AI AT rifles vs custom rigs.
I was about to purchase AI rifle when I spoke to few good shooters who advised me that their zero was shifting with an AI AT rifles. All of them had barrels from 3rd party manufacturers. I wanted to see if this has been an issue for anyone else? The main strength of an AI rifle is its reliability and a shifting zero would be a no go for me

Second question I had regarding AI AT is how heavy can you get these with let’s say mtu contour barrel. Since AI is not really customizable I was wondering if you can bring the weight up to like 20lb with a really heavy contour?

Thank you all!

 

[W54/XM-388]

You can get an AI rifle such as the AW or AX & probably the AT to the 20 pound mark without even trying hard.
Add in scope, mount, bipod, rear spike stuff on the rails and you are pushing 20 pounds already.

Where the AI rifle is a problem would be if you want to shoot a bunch of gamed positional stuff, it's not as ergonomic as others.

If you have 3rd party barrels and are taking them on and off, then that's really about the barrels and your repeatability in putting them on the exact same way.

If you want all your bullets going through the same hole, get a good barrel and don't mess with it once on.
Jason from EuroOptic did a test taking off the barrel & putting it back on repeatedly for each shot, and I think it was 1/2 MOA or something close.

 

[Hollywood 6mm]

I can't speak to the shifting issues, as I don't run an AI. The argument against AI for PRS, to me, is one of ergos. I've just never really been comfortable behind an AI chassis, so I've stuck with 700 footprint rifles. If the AI fits and works for you, then run the hell out of it, but they definitely don't work for everyone.

 

[Slate264]

You can get an AI rifle such as the AW or AX & probably the AT to the 20 pound mark without even trying hard.
Add in scope, mount, bipod, rear spike stuff on the rails and you are pushing 20 pounds already.

Where the AI rifle is a problem would be if you want to shoot a bunch of gamed positional stuff, it's not as ergonomic as others.

If you have 3rd party barrels and are taking them on and off, then that's really about the barrels and your repeatability in putting them on the exact same way.

If you want all your bullets going through the same hole, get a good barrel and don't mess with it once on.
Jason from EuroOptic did a test taking off the barrel & putting it back on repeatedly for each shot, and I think it was 1/2 MOA or something close.

Thanks for reply, the shifting I was referring to was without taking the barrel off. The zero they told me used to change slightly from one shooting session to another

 

[GIXXER2000]

I have an AI-AT and PSR (amxc long action) and had no issue with zero reputability. When you change caliber there is a shift but when i go back to the barrel that was zeroed no issue . As W54/XM-338 said there are rifles that may fit you better. I have 4 AI's and love them all they just fit me. With a Spuhr mount , S&B 5x25 and Accutac SR5 bipod it weighs in 16.5 pound but I have a Palma contour barrel. If you go MTU OR M 24/40 it would about 18 ish
I have Dave Tooley make all my barrels for mi AI's. I have 12 of them all are Bartlein's

 

[leftyk82]

Thanks for reply, the shifting I was referring to was without taking the barrel off. The zero they told me used to change slightly from one shooting session to another

The problem 'they' are describing is likely of 'their' own doing.

If they are not applying correct recoil management, the zero could appear to shift. But that's on the shooter, not the AI.

That, or....something is really jacked up with those barrels.

 

[Basher]

Thanks for reply, the shifting I was referring to was without taking the barrel off. The zero they told me used to change slightly from one shooting session to another

This sounds like a setup issue to me. Without knowing the shooter, seeing their gear, or watching them shoot, this is all armchair QB’ing, but it sounds to me like their rifles aren’t set up correctly for them (probably an LOP or eye relief/eye placement issue). Or an equipment issue (parallax, not installing/torquing the barrel correctly, scope mount loose, etc.). Again, completely shooting from the hip here, but that’s what it sounds like.

The AI Quick Lock system is amazingly repeatable and accurate. People love them for a reason.

Or, maybe those guys have a grudge against AI, who knows. But this sounds like an EXTREMELY isolated incident. It would be all over the Hide if it were an actual problem with the AI system itself.

Me? I don’t compete to win, so I run my AT and love it. Last rifle I’ll ever sell.

 

[BLKWLFK9]

I have an AT. With my 26" MTU, razor gen2, empty mag, and atlas bipod I came in at 21ish pounds. I think it was close to 22lbs. I had a cold bore shift on my AT until I figured out it was the torque value on the quick change screw. Went up to 60lbs and the shift went away completely. I have an AT and a custom. I like both for shooting matches.

 

[W54/XM-388]

Thanks for reply, the shifting I was referring to was without taking the barrel off. The zero they told me used to change slightly from one shooting session to another

I'm going to say they are doing something wrong.

I set the zero on my AI AW about 6+ years ago.
Still dead nuts on target every range outing.

 

[Slate264]

I'm going to say they are doing something wrong.

I set the zero on my AI AW about 6+ years ago.
Still dead nuts on target every range outing.

The guys i was referring to are all accomplished shooters who have been shooting and competing for years. The fit and the technique was not an issue at all. I was more curious to know regarding 3rd party barrels for AI, thread tolerances and so on.. that might cause the zero to move
Thanks

 

[Mormegil87]

I've never had a problem with shifting zeros and prefer my AXMC over any custom built gun I've shot up to this point, whether its for matches or otherwise.

In fact it's not even close as far as which I prefer.

 

[kthomas]

The reputation for AI's having much better reliability than customs comes from a time when custom rifles and components weren't now as reliable as they are now. With the current generation of custom rifles and components, a properly built custom rifle with quality components is arguably just as reliable as any AI rifle.

AI's are great rifles, but they are a "one size fits most" kind of solution. The ergos work for some people, not so much for others. If you know what you want/like in a rifle, you can build a reliable custom rifle that fits you like a glove.

I've seen a few AI's go down in PRS matches - they're not immune to issues. Don't be afraid to get a custom rifle due to potential reliability concerns.

 

[slowlearner]

No zero shift on my AI AT either.

If you want a chassis that has every doo-dad and latest greatest game trick to hold on one specific barricade, something like the MPA chassis might work better for you. Then again, MPA makes that chassis for the AI AT, so thats an option.

I have a RRS plate on my AI, and it has worked OK, the new design provides more of a consistent surface, and see that as an upgrade.

Granted, I am not a top ten shooter or even close to that. But I know every miss I have had was because of me.

The ability to swap barrels on your own saves a good bit of down time if you have to send your gun out for a new barrel each time as well.

 

[Mormegil87]

Sorry @kthomas I have to disagree. I've seen too many problems with customs in the last two years. Doesn't matter who the manufacturer is. Ive owned most of the custom actions out there at one point or another and wouldn't switch AI from the AI if they paid me.

 

[slowlearner]

Sorry @kthomas I have to disagree. I've seen too many problems with customs in the last two years. Doesn't matter who the manufacturer is. Ive owned most of the custom actions out there at one point or another and wouldn't switch AI from the AI if they paid me.

I love my AI, and I’m a fanboy by far. But I think there is an issue of proportionality too. How many custom guns are at a match versus AI’s? I would say on a good day, 20:1. Add in the variety of issues like different manufactures, builders, and people running BR and Dasher’s, it would be hard to equally compare without deliberate analysis.

 

[Mormegil87]

I love my AI, and I’m a fanboy by far. But I think there is an issue of proportionality too. How many custom guns are at a match versus AI’s? I would say on a good day, 20:1. Add in the variety of issues like different manufactures, builders, and people running BR and Dasher’s, it would be hard to equally compare without deliberate analysis.

Oh I totally agree. That being said, I don't have feeding issues. I've had one stuck case, I pulled the barrel, removed the case, replaced the barrel and kept shooting. Forgot to put the action bolts back in after a cerakote job, used the gun for a whole local match and half a PRS match. Took 4th at the local match. I don't have to worry about sand or dust in my action.

On top of that I have yet to find a custom even close to as smooth as my AI, including Impacts.

Not to say they aren't quality, but to me there's nothing even close to being in the same ball park as an AI.

YMMV

 

[Slate264]

Where do you guys get barrels for your AIs?

 

[Mormegil87]

@Slate264 EuroOptic and Mile High.

I have an AXMC and hopefully be replacing my last custom rig with an AT or AX this fall or winter.

 

[mercracing]

The reputation for AI's having much better reliability than customs comes from a time when custom rifles and components weren't now as reliable as they are now. With the current generation of custom rifles and components, a properly built custom rifle with quality components is arguably just as reliable as any AI rifle.

AI's are great rifles, but they are a "one size fits most" kind of solution. The ergos work for some people, not so much for others. If you know what you want/like in a rifle, you can build a reliable custom rifle that fits you like a glove.

I've seen a few AI's go down in PRS matches - they're not immune to issues. Don't be afraid to get a custom rifle due to potential reliability concerns.

???????
This guys funny

 

[Dthomas3523]

???????
This guys funny

If the custom is put together properly and such, he’s not wrong. Most customs that go down are just slapped together.

Own AI’s and customs. AI’s come already as a system that works great. Customs take time on the gunsmith or user end to make work.

 

[mercracing]

So high end rifles that go down only do so because they are not put together properly? Seems unlikely. The AIs do well because they are designed not to fail. Custom rifles aren’t put together with that as the main goal.

 

[Timo Turl]

There is no such thing as a wandering zero with an AI. I’m not the best shot but the pic below also talks to repeatability. I few 11-hours across the Atlantic with the barrel separated from the action. Torqued to 49lbs at the range and no adjustments were needed.

When I spend $$$ flying to the US to shoot i take my AI. Has it been 100% reliable - no but it was back in the match before the end of the stage and exactly because AI built in a redundancy feature. I’ll take that.

Is it the best tool for PRS - no. I prefer my custom all day long but this weekend I will take both rifles because the weather is foul and I will have my AI as backup.

 

[Dthomas3523]

So high end rifles that go down only do so because they are not put together properly? Seems unlikely. The AIs do well because they are designed not to fail. Custom rifles aren’t put together with that as the main goal.

Why do AI’s go down? Cause, here’s a secret, they do. Seen plenty go down.

Love my AI. But I’ve seen them go down.

Designed not to fail.......yet they do fail. Failed in the recent soccom contract testing. Everything fails.

And yes, most customs that have issues are with feeding. This is usually from a failure to tweek the mags and height for the rifle.

 

[Timo Turl]

Why do AI’s go down? Cause, here’s a secret, they do. Seen plenty go down.

Love my AI. But I’ve seen them go down.

Designed not to fail.......yet they do fail. Failed in the recent soccom contract testing. Everything fails.

And yes, most customs that have issues are with feeding. This is usually from a failure to tweek the mags and height for the rifle.

True but wasn’t the Soccom failure due to them using the competition trigger, which isn’t actually made by AI ??

 

[slowlearner]

True but wasn’t the Soccom failure due to them using the competition trigger, which isn’t actually made by AI ??

I can’t comment on the SOCOM failure. But I have seen an AI trigger fail out here in the Mojave because of the dust issues. Not impossible to fix, but it stopped his shooting for the day until he could fix it.

Interesting to hear about the possibility of the trigger being the competition version for the submission.

 

[Dthomas3523]

I can’t comment on the SOCOM failure. But I have seen an AI trigger fail out here in the Mojave because of the dust issues. Not impossible to fix, but it stopped his shooting for the day until he could fix it.

Interesting to hear about the possibility of the trigger being the competition version for the submission.

If it was, I can fully understand the failure. I had 3 comp triggers and every one failed. One went down when I was at a Rifles Only Class. I had the factory trigger with me and easily replaced it.

I have met zero people in person that own a comp trigger that haven’t had some sort of issues and most everyone has returned to the factory trigger. I’ve read reviews online where people have no problems. I just haven’t met anyone that shoots around here with one. Somewhere around 10 comp triggers or more that encompasses.

I sent two of them back to the manufacturer and the owner of said company even tuned them. They showed back up to my door and failed immediately while still in gun room function testing. Two different rifles and two different bolts. Both triggers failed miserably upon return.

I got tired of dealing with the company/owner and went back to factory. At the time I knew three people who had been in contact with said owner for failures and when I contacted him he played stupid and said I was the first person to contact them with any issues.

I’m not a fan of the comp trigger or the manufacturer after that. But that’s not a knock on AI.

 

[Dthomas3523]

True but wasn’t the Soccom failure due to them using the competition trigger, which isn’t actually made by AI ??

That’s speculation. Hasn’t been confirmed.

Regardless, AI should have tested the shit out of it if they were putting them into a rifle for that extreme testing.

So, are they stupid or is their not designed not to fail process also capable of having flaws (just making a point, not directing the sarcasm at you personally)? Cause it’s one or the other. They either sent an unproven trigger into the process (stupid), or it got past their testing (proving it’s not a perfect process, as nothing is).

 

[Pete B]

Go figure.... Place a light pull weight trigger in an AI and they have issues. Perhaps a 2lb Jewel would be as reliable as a factory AI trigger?
Great respect for the AI system, but perhaps part of the success is not pushing certain limmits, not some magical engineering feat that only one company has the secret sauce to.
Just a thought....

 

[Mormegil87]

I haven't had any issues with mine as of yet in the year or so I've been running one. I've lost count on how many rounds and dry fires. I haven't cleaned it yet. That being said, I've heard of the issues with them and do take my factory one with me to matches.

Isn't the AI comp trigger made by the same company that makes the Mk13?

I guess I'm in the minority but I really don't like custom rifles. I've had most of the custom actions out there, built by some of the more well know and respected smiths. They just weren't my thing and for $4k, I'd buy an AT all day everyday and twice on Sunday before buying another custom gun.

 

[mercracing]

Why do AI’s go down? Cause, here’s a secret, they do. Seen plenty go down.

Love my AI. But I’ve seen them go down.

Designed not to fail.......yet they do fail. Failed in the recent soccom contract testing. Everything fails.

And yes, most customs that have issues are with feeding. This is usually from a failure to tweek the mags and height for the rifle.

Indeed everything fails. I guess if my statement came across as saying an AI will never fail that’s not what I was trying to say. I would say the odds of an AI failing are far smaller then a custom. Squib round? Take the barrel off and remove the bullet. Gunk in the firing pin? Take it apart and clean it. Triggers gritty? Two bolts to remove and clean the trigger. Everything is made to work well but if it doesn’t it’s also made to be simple to fix/clean.

I’m sure SOCOM beats the snot out of their stuff to make sure it works. I haven’t looked at anything they test so I can’t comment on that.

I would think feeding and trigger issues are the two biggest failures with customs. I know 6-10 AI owners and maybe 3 of us have comp triggers, no problems that I know of.

The reason I have an AI is because it’s going to work. Period. If I manage to F it up and it doesn’t work I can easily fix it and I know I would have really F’d something up bad if it wasn’t an AI.

 

[blbennett1288]

Thanks for reply, the shifting I was referring to was without taking the barrel off. The zero they told me used to change slightly from one shooting session to another

I have never had a wondering zero with either the AT or AX. Something else is going on; set screw isn’t torqued properly or barrel isn’t shouldered 100%.

I stopped re-zeroing after swapping barrels because the shift between 6.5CM and .308 has been the exact same every single time. 0.9E/0.2W.

I suspect there are two reasons they are not more popular. First is price. Second is ergonomics.

 

[blbennett1288]

I have an AT. With my 26" MTU, razor gen2, empty mag, and atlas bipod I came in at 21ish pounds. I think it was close to 22lbs. I had a cold bore shift on my AT until I figured out it was the torque value on the quick change screw. Went up to 60lbs and the shift went away completely. I have an AT and a custom. I like both for shooting matches. View attachment 7098129

Where was your cold bore shift? Low and right?

I am running the recommended 49 in-lbs and have a cold bore shift

 

[BLKWLFK9]

Where was your cold bore shift? Low and right?

I am running the recommended 49 in-lbs and have a cold bore shift

.3 high

tightened it to 60lbs and it went away completely.

 

[blbennett1288]

.3 high

tightened it to 60lbs and it went away completely.

Weird mine is low and right, but only with the 6.5CM.

 

[The Durk]

Only zero shift I see is cold bore shot, which is typically .1 mils low, after 2-3 shots, it comes right back in. It's well within what I would consider acceptable cold bore shift. It's a 6.5 Win Tac barrel, fyi.

Big issue is ergonomics. You either fit with an AI, or you don't. Other things are 100% subjective. When PRS started, it was too heavy of a gun, now guys are running 30+ lbs rigs. Trigger is too heavy, chassis is too thick and tall, etc. It's all subjective.

I can agree on the trigger problem. Competition ultra light triggers seem to be a big issue, AI branded or not. Every match seems to have guns go down due to triggers.

And yes an AI can fail, because it was made by humans. By far, I've seen custom guns go down at a greater rate.

The only issue I've had is on cattle gate stages, the chassis can barely fit, add an optic and it becomes too tall. So I normally stuff a brick rear bag in between the gate and the rifle, and load into the gate. It works pretty darn well.

I like shooting PRS, because it's a thinking persons game. My last competition, people kept getting caught in a window stage. I figured out if you put the rifle sideways through the window, and twist it, you can get the bipod on the outside of the window without collapsing it and do a negative load, which worked out very well.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Only zero shift I see is cold bore shot, which is typically .1 mils low, after 2-3 shots, it comes right back in. It's well within what I would consider acceptable cold bore shift. It's a 6.5 Win Tac barrel, fyi.

Big issue is ergonomics. You either fit with an AI, or you don't. Other things are 100% subjective. When PRS started, it was too heavy of a gun, now guys are running 30+ lbs rigs. Trigger is too heavy, chassis is too thick and tall, etc. It's all subjective.

I can agree on the trigger problem. Competition ultra light triggers seem to be a big issue, AI branded or not. Every match seems to have guns go down due to triggers.

And yes an AI can fail, because it was made by humans. By far, I've seen custom guns go down at a greater rate.

The only issue I've had is on cattle gate stages, the chassis can barely fit, add an optic and it becomes too tall. So I normally stuff a brick rear bag in between the gate and the rifle, and load into the gate. It works pretty darn well.

I like shooting PRS, because it's a thinking persons game. My last competition, people kept getting caught in a window stage. I figured out if you put the rifle sideways through the window, and twist it, you can get the bipod on the outside of the window without collapsing it and do a negative load, which worked out very well.

Have you really seen customs go down at a greater rate or have you seen the same rate and just more customs overall? Serious question.

I don’t hear about a lot of AI going down, but I also don’t hear about a lot of people running AI.

I see a lot of vortex gen 2 have issues. But I also see so many of them at matches, I don’t think they go down at any greater rate that other optics.

 

[The Durk]

I’ve only seen one AI have an issue, and it was the match trigger he was using. I’ve seen 12 custom guns go down, due to seized up bolts, and triggers being set too low. I could name brands but I’m not a basher.

I will say, like AI’s larger than needed bolt face firing pin hole, all guns have design flaws. My Remington 700 style actions had issues freezing in the snow, and if you got course dust in it, say good bye for shooting that day.

 

[The Durk]

I’ve also seen way more Kahles than Vortex scopes at matches locally. We had two guys with major wandering zeroes on the vortex razors. One guys rifle was 2+ mils to the left, out of nowhere. At 100 yards.

 

[blbennett1288]

I’ve also seen way more Kahles than Vortex scopes at matches locally. We had two guys with major wandering zeroes on the vortex razors. One guys rifle was 2+ mils to the left, out of nowhere. At 100 yards.

infinite zero in L-Tec turrets

 

[The Durk]

The being said, I wanted to test how well my zero returned from my last match. Dirty rifle, and I moved my scope forward 2 spots on the rail, to give my neck more room on the rifle. The things you learn while shooting high round counts, am I right? Well, it’s still within 1moa but it was low and to the left. I shouldn’t have touched the scope until I confirmed zero retention. Next time I’ll try it and see where it goes. The rifle definitely needed cleaned. 1moa out of a rifle that usually shoots .3 moa groups. I’m using a K624I scope on a spuhr mount.

 

[Aaron47pb]

I've been shooting an AI for 5 years and never had POI/repeatability issues.

Where do you guys get barrels for your AIs?

Lots of reputable options. @Robert Gradous used to chamber all OTM’s AI prefits and then he just started selling them himself. I’ve owned a number of his barrels over the years and just ordered two more. He had a turn around in under a week.

 

[trophyhunter]

The rifles I’ve seen that have wandering zero either had a flawed Spuhr mount or broken scope. Many of the guys I know including me use our AI to test other scopes. But I have seen an increased amount of out of spec rails wether it be the AI part or faulty spuhr rails. One of the common things that I’ve seen from many top level shooters (won a few national level matches) is grease the rails when installing a scope mount. Torque on the barrels has been increased (against AI’s wishes) to 50-60in/lbs.
Other then that there is virtually no other place the rifle can shift. Take your non-bedded rifle and tap the end of barrel and test your zero. Do that with an AI, you’ll notice no shift.

The reason for the socom failure was that shit comp trigger. Sotex had roughly 16 comp triggers between everyone....they all went back to modded factory. Sear wears out or adjustment walks out, they all failed.

Getting any AI either AT or AX to 20lbs is really easy, I run a ZCO, Spuhr AX in 223 with 26” marksman barrel...21lbs.

 

[GeKados]

.3 high

tightened it to 60lbs and it went away completely.

I have almost the same problem.... around 0.2mil high with the barrel torqued at 5.5Nm. Can I ask you how you had arrived at this value of 60lbs (6.78 Nm) wich work good and fix the problem?
Thanks

PS: I had already retorque the barrel at 60 lbs for testing

 

[mojavejim]

Trophyhunter ? "Getting any AI either AT or AX to 20lbs is really easy, I run a ZCO, Spuhr AX in 223 with 26” marksman barrel...21lbs. "
What bolt or who did your bolt for 223?
Any feeding issues?

 

[BLKWLFK9]

I have almost the same problem.... around 0.2mil high with the barrel torqued at 5.5Nm. Can I ask you how you had arrived at this value of 60lbs (6.78 Nm) wich work good and fix the problem?
Thanks

PS: I had already retorque the barrel at 60 lbs for testing

Well. 49lbs wasnt working so I just tried 60 and it worked.

 

[blbennett1288]

Trophyhunter ? "Getting any AI either AT or AX to 20lbs is really easy, I run a ZCO, Spuhr AX in 223 with 26” marksman barrel...21lbs. "
What bolt or who did your bolt for 223?
Any feeding issues?

@trophyhunter is making a .223 conversion

Link to thread about the conversion on the Hide

 

[trophyhunter]

Trophyhunter ? "Getting any AI either AT or AX to 20lbs is really easy, I run a ZCO, Spuhr AX in 223 with 26” marksman barrel...21lbs. "
What bolt or who did your bolt for 223?
Any feeding issues?

One that I’ve been working on for a while, have a little over 1300rds on it now, running great.

 

[Dthomas3523]

I’ve only seen one AI have an issue, and it was the match trigger he was using. I’ve seen 12 custom guns go down, due to seized up bolts, and triggers being set too low. I could name brands but I’m not a basher.

I will say, like AI’s larger than needed bolt face firing pin hole, all guns have design flaws. My Remington 700 style actions had issues freezing in the snow, and if you got course dust in it, say good bye for shooting that day.

And how many AI to custom rifles are you seeing? If it’s anywhere close 10 to 1 custom to AI, then your observations don’t validate the claim that customs go down more than AI.

I’d say most places it’s easily around 10 to 1 guys running customs vs guys running AI.

 

[The Durk]

And how many AI to custom rifles are you seeing? If it’s anywhere close 10 to 1 custom to AI, then your observations don’t validate the claim that customs go down more than AI.

I’d say most places it’s easily around 10 to 1 guys running customs vs guys running AI.

Depends on the match. The last club match, we had about 1:15 ratio. That day we only had 1 rifle go down, from my knowledge, and he was in my squad, and yes it was a 700 action. Other times like last months PRS Pro series, there was 3 of us in a single squad that had AI's. You're right, that the numbers are skewed due to the massive amount of custom actions out there, vs AI.

All you can use is your personal experience, and judge if the price of a custom vs features vs a factory AI is worth it. I personally think it's a wash.

My only problem it seems is inserting the magazine on my first stage.

 

[BLKWLFK9]

Youre always always going to see more customs than AI's. Customs are cheaper, and obviously, there are more custom actions collectively than 1 AI manufacturer. But i agree that customs are more purpose built for competition