I have tasted the AIAE MKII Kool-aid folks........and I am not sure if I like it. Got my new rifle last week from the awesome folks of MileHigh Shooting. I got the AIAE with 24 in Bartlein and folding stock. Beautiful rifle. So i mounted up the trusty Ole S&B and set off to break in the barrel. The ergonomics of the stock are just fine, I have had many chassis on Rem 700 so I was comfortable. The trigger came from AI set very nice and crisp, I have dry fired this trigger for a few days prior to my range session and it light and crisp. it seems however that once you are firing a live round, the takeup increases. this is my first two-stage trigger and i am not sure if i really care for it at all. my three shot groups were not very impressive so i did not extend them to 5 shot groups. the 3 shots hovered around 1" and were triangular shaped. i know this is probably just me trying to get used to this new trigger and rifle. Any suggestions or pointers would be greatly appreciated. i also know i wasnt having an off day as i was driving my KMW pretty effing good.
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Accuracy International Kool-aid
- Thread starter sniper307
- Start date
Re: Accuracy International Kool-aid
Hi sorry are dissapointed but just a bit of info the trigger does not change when dry or live firing.
The trigger mech. when cocked is the same in both conditions.
Hi sorry are dissapointed but just a bit of info the trigger does not change when dry or live firing.
The trigger mech. when cocked is the same in both conditions.
Re: Accuracy International Kool-aid
Make sure it's lightly lubed but remember new barrels take a few ( 50?) rounds until they settle down...
Make sure it's lightly lubed but remember new barrels take a few ( 50?) rounds until they settle down...
Re: Accuracy International Kool-aid
I've never had a AI trigger increase takeup after firing, it's always consistent. I would have somebody else shoot the gun to verify.
How are you pulling the trigger? The most accurate method I've find to shooting them is to pull the takeup, then break it. Either way I would have somebody else shoot the gun, or somebody who knows what they're doing watch you. Once you get used to the trigger most people prefer them over a single stage, I know I do. Furthermore that rifle should not be shooting MOA, once again I think your doing something wrong or using bad ammo, I've yet to see a AI that won't shoot 1/2MOA. AI guarantees the rifle to shoot 1MOA with anything, and mine does it even with ball ammo.
I've never had a AI trigger increase takeup after firing, it's always consistent. I would have somebody else shoot the gun to verify.
How are you pulling the trigger? The most accurate method I've find to shooting them is to pull the takeup, then break it. Either way I would have somebody else shoot the gun, or somebody who knows what they're doing watch you. Once you get used to the trigger most people prefer them over a single stage, I know I do. Furthermore that rifle should not be shooting MOA, once again I think your doing something wrong or using bad ammo, I've yet to see a AI that won't shoot 1/2MOA. AI guarantees the rifle to shoot 1MOA with anything, and mine does it even with ball ammo.
Re: Accuracy International Kool-aid
Usually indicates a Trigger Crush issue with the shooter.
During dry practice you are stopping at the point of the break, during live fire you are crushing down and traveling past the break as the trigger will do. And now you feel it because you are driving the rifle different dry to live.
You want to follow through and hold the trigger to the rear, but there is travel with this trigger, so you have to learn to execute it in one smooth motion then hold the trigger back.
Usually indicates a Trigger Crush issue with the shooter.
During dry practice you are stopping at the point of the break, during live fire you are crushing down and traveling past the break as the trigger will do. And now you feel it because you are driving the rifle different dry to live.
You want to follow through and hold the trigger to the rear, but there is travel with this trigger, so you have to learn to execute it in one smooth motion then hold the trigger back.
Re: Accuracy International Kool-aid
The two stage takes a little getting used to IMHO.
However the trigger is an excellent trigger. I kept mine at the factory settings, but I have felt an AE dialed to the extremely light end and it was amazing.
As far as accuracy goes, the factory 20" continues to amaze me. I cleaned a KYL stage yesterday at our local match with it. I tuned in quite a few tiny groups during a load verification Saturday. I would only expect the Bartlein to be better.
Spend some time on the floor dry-firing and I think you will see that it's an amazingly accurate system.
Additionally on the trigger pull, it does have quite a bit of over travel. When I "pull through" on follow through I don't go all the way to the stop. It's just not needed like on a semi-auto. I hold past the point of the break, but not at the rear most travel of the trigger.
The two stage takes a little getting used to IMHO.
However the trigger is an excellent trigger. I kept mine at the factory settings, but I have felt an AE dialed to the extremely light end and it was amazing.
As far as accuracy goes, the factory 20" continues to amaze me. I cleaned a KYL stage yesterday at our local match with it. I tuned in quite a few tiny groups during a load verification Saturday. I would only expect the Bartlein to be better.
Spend some time on the floor dry-firing and I think you will see that it's an amazingly accurate system.
Additionally on the trigger pull, it does have quite a bit of over travel. When I "pull through" on follow through I don't go all the way to the stop. It's just not needed like on a semi-auto. I hold past the point of the break, but not at the rear most travel of the trigger.
Re: Accuracy International Kool-aid
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sniper307</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't think the travel is actually increasing, I think it's just a mental thing. I'm sure it's just me </div></div>
More trigger time! Buy a couple portugese or german 200 round battle packs and run them through it. It's accurate enough for 600 yard and under shooting and by time you put 400 rounds through the gun it will be good and broken in and you will also be very used to the gun. IMO the AI's are one of the easiest guns to shoot. I've had several times now where people who have never shot a gun at all much less a precision rifle has gotten behind my AI and banged long range steel like it was their job with a dry fire or two to get used to the trigger and me reading the wind and telling them what to hold. Just this weekend it happened again with a two new shooters, one who has some experience with pistols, and a little bit with shotgun, and another who had never shot a gun in his life. Both were very successful behind the trigger and both commented on how easy the gun was to shoot.
I've also never had anybody even experienced shooters complain about the stock ergonomics, everybody who shoots it that hasn't a AI or AI stocked rifle before says "wow, thats the nicest rifle I've ever used". I hear a lot of people saying they don't like the ergonomics of the stock or can't get comfortable behind it but yet I've never had ANYBODY even those who typically shoots MCM's and HS's have anything but praise. I believe it's shooter error, not spending enough time to get comfortable, or just being a fan boy of something else that has never even tried one.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sniper307</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't think the travel is actually increasing, I think it's just a mental thing. I'm sure it's just me </div></div>
More trigger time! Buy a couple portugese or german 200 round battle packs and run them through it. It's accurate enough for 600 yard and under shooting and by time you put 400 rounds through the gun it will be good and broken in and you will also be very used to the gun. IMO the AI's are one of the easiest guns to shoot. I've had several times now where people who have never shot a gun at all much less a precision rifle has gotten behind my AI and banged long range steel like it was their job with a dry fire or two to get used to the trigger and me reading the wind and telling them what to hold. Just this weekend it happened again with a two new shooters, one who has some experience with pistols, and a little bit with shotgun, and another who had never shot a gun in his life. Both were very successful behind the trigger and both commented on how easy the gun was to shoot.
I've also never had anybody even experienced shooters complain about the stock ergonomics, everybody who shoots it that hasn't a AI or AI stocked rifle before says "wow, thats the nicest rifle I've ever used". I hear a lot of people saying they don't like the ergonomics of the stock or can't get comfortable behind it but yet I've never had ANYBODY even those who typically shoots MCM's and HS's have anything but praise. I believe it's shooter error, not spending enough time to get comfortable, or just being a fan boy of something else that has never even tried one.
Re: Accuracy International Kool-aid
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: redneckbmxer24</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Buy a couple portugese or german 200 round battle packs and run them through it. It's accurate enough for 600 yard and under shooting and by time you put 400 rounds through the gun it will be good and broken in and you will also be very used to the gun.</div></div>
I would respectfully disagree that banging away with inaccurate ammo is akin to burning money and in no way will help in the OP's issue.
There isn't anything you are "breaking in" on an AE.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: redneckbmxer24</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Buy a couple portugese or german 200 round battle packs and run them through it. It's accurate enough for 600 yard and under shooting and by time you put 400 rounds through the gun it will be good and broken in and you will also be very used to the gun.</div></div>
I would respectfully disagree that banging away with inaccurate ammo is akin to burning money and in no way will help in the OP's issue.
There isn't anything you are "breaking in" on an AE.
Re: Accuracy International Kool-aid
My limited time behind anything AI has only done one thing. Made me want one.
But, that said, I guess not enough to cause me to buy one. And I have bought a few very nice rifles since and still no AI.
I will say that, after years of single stage bolt guns, the AI two stage is different. I got the chance to shoot a friend's AIAW 308. I took a few dry fire pulls, got comfortable and then ripped off a sub 1/2 inch group at 100 form the bipod.
I also fell in love with the feel of the AICS and now most anything else feels strange to me. The bulk of my rifles are now in AICS chassis.
My limited time behind anything AI has only done one thing. Made me want one.
But, that said, I guess not enough to cause me to buy one. And I have bought a few very nice rifles since and still no AI.
I will say that, after years of single stage bolt guns, the AI two stage is different. I got the chance to shoot a friend's AIAW 308. I took a few dry fire pulls, got comfortable and then ripped off a sub 1/2 inch group at 100 form the bipod.
I also fell in love with the feel of the AICS and now most anything else feels strange to me. The bulk of my rifles are now in AICS chassis.
Re: Accuracy International Kool-aid
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: redneckbmxer24</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Buy a couple portugese or german 200 round battle packs and run them through it. It's accurate enough for 600 yard and under shooting and by time you put 400 rounds through the gun it will be good and broken in and you will also be very used to the gun.</div></div>
I would respectfully disagree that banging away with inaccurate ammo is akin to burning money and in no way will help in the OP's issue.
There isn't anything you are "breaking in" on an AE. </div></div>
Have you actually shot any of this ammo through your AI? This ammo will hold 1MOA in mine which is more than acceptable with SD around 25FPS and holds MOA all the way to 600 yards where accuracy starts falling off due to the bullet.
There is break in on any gun regardless of make. Freshly machined metal is not smooth and the best way to make things smooth is shooting it. I don't believe in the barrel break in procedures where you shoot one clean one for so many rounds or any of that BS, I'm one that believe pushing a brush down the barrel that many times is hurting things. I also know that ANY barrel even the hand lapped ones will smooth out (in other words "break in") with some rounds down it, hand lapped ones typically take much less than the non hand lapped, but it still applies to them. Not to mention while your doing this the action will also be smoothing out aswell as the trigger mechanism. Both of mine made a noticeable difference in accuracy, bolt smoothness and trigger smoothness after a couple hundred rounds. After a couple thousand now it's like butter.
The cheaper the ammo costs, the more trigger time you can get, and the more familiar you get with the gun. As I said there is nothing wrong with ammo only capable of 1MOA to get used to the gun, there have been plenty of competitions won by good shooters with 1MOA guns. Not everybody is set up to reload, or has the time to load enough ammo to get sufficient range time. If you've got the time to load a lot of ammo, or the funds to buy a lot of match ammo then by all means go ahead, but don't discourage somebody from using ammo that's plenty accurate so they can get more trigger time.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: redneckbmxer24</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Buy a couple portugese or german 200 round battle packs and run them through it. It's accurate enough for 600 yard and under shooting and by time you put 400 rounds through the gun it will be good and broken in and you will also be very used to the gun.</div></div>
I would respectfully disagree that banging away with inaccurate ammo is akin to burning money and in no way will help in the OP's issue.
There isn't anything you are "breaking in" on an AE. </div></div>
Have you actually shot any of this ammo through your AI? This ammo will hold 1MOA in mine which is more than acceptable with SD around 25FPS and holds MOA all the way to 600 yards where accuracy starts falling off due to the bullet.
There is break in on any gun regardless of make. Freshly machined metal is not smooth and the best way to make things smooth is shooting it. I don't believe in the barrel break in procedures where you shoot one clean one for so many rounds or any of that BS, I'm one that believe pushing a brush down the barrel that many times is hurting things. I also know that ANY barrel even the hand lapped ones will smooth out (in other words "break in") with some rounds down it, hand lapped ones typically take much less than the non hand lapped, but it still applies to them. Not to mention while your doing this the action will also be smoothing out aswell as the trigger mechanism. Both of mine made a noticeable difference in accuracy, bolt smoothness and trigger smoothness after a couple hundred rounds. After a couple thousand now it's like butter.
The cheaper the ammo costs, the more trigger time you can get, and the more familiar you get with the gun. As I said there is nothing wrong with ammo only capable of 1MOA to get used to the gun, there have been plenty of competitions won by good shooters with 1MOA guns. Not everybody is set up to reload, or has the time to load enough ammo to get sufficient range time. If you've got the time to load a lot of ammo, or the funds to buy a lot of match ammo then by all means go ahead, but don't discourage somebody from using ammo that's plenty accurate so they can get more trigger time.
Re: Accuracy International Kool-aid
seems strange i purchased a mk II last year first three shoots clover leaf at 100 yrds. for me a two stage trigger works great take up then short squeeze.
answer quality ammo & range time you will get to where you do not want to shoot anything else.
seems strange i purchased a mk II last year first three shoots clover leaf at 100 yrds. for me a two stage trigger works great take up then short squeeze.
answer quality ammo & range time you will get to where you do not want to shoot anything else.
Re: Accuracy International Kool-aid
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bama110</div><div class="ubbcode-body">seems strange i purchased a mk II last year first three shoots clover leaf at 100 yrds. for me a two stage trigger works great take up then short squeeze.
answer quality ammo & range time you will get to where you do not want to shoot anything else. </div></div>
+1,
I shoot a TRG 22 with a 2 stage set to 1 lb 14oz. If you aren't used to a two stage it might take a little getting used to. Like was already stated it is important to get on target, bring up the first stage, then just hold......then, make your shot when everything is right.
Also do some load developement to find what the rifle really likes.
Enjoy.
SScott
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bama110</div><div class="ubbcode-body">seems strange i purchased a mk II last year first three shoots clover leaf at 100 yrds. for me a two stage trigger works great take up then short squeeze.
answer quality ammo & range time you will get to where you do not want to shoot anything else. </div></div>
+1,
I shoot a TRG 22 with a 2 stage set to 1 lb 14oz. If you aren't used to a two stage it might take a little getting used to. Like was already stated it is important to get on target, bring up the first stage, then just hold......then, make your shot when everything is right.
Also do some load developement to find what the rifle really likes.
Enjoy.
SScott
Re: Accuracy International Kool-aid
Not to get off topic from the OP but is a two-stage trigger similar to a good double action trigger, like on a S&W Revolver without the heavy takeup? Meaning there is a long pull then you can feel right before it breaks, then you pull through? I'm in the market for an AE MKII at the moment.
Not to get off topic from the OP but is a two-stage trigger similar to a good double action trigger, like on a S&W Revolver without the heavy takeup? Meaning there is a long pull then you can feel right before it breaks, then you pull through? I'm in the market for an AE MKII at the moment.
Re: Accuracy International Kool-aid
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hawk45</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not to get off topic from the OP but is a two-stage trigger similar to a good double action trigger, like on a S&W Revolver without the heavy takeup? Meaning there is a long pull then you can feel right before it breaks, then you pull through? I'm in the market for an AE MKII at the moment. </div></div>
No, not at all. With a DA pistol you are cocking the gun and dropping the firing pin or hammer in the same trigger pull. With a two stage trigger the gun is already cocked ready to fire, but instead of a single stage trigger that just breaks when you pull it with little to no movement, the two stage has a takeup where you pull it back to to the first stage, and then break the first stage. For instance if you have the first stage set at 4lbs where it actually breaks and drops the firing pin, and you have your second stage set to 2lbs, you'll pull that stage and hold it, then the next stage will only require another 2lbs of pressure to break.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hawk45</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not to get off topic from the OP but is a two-stage trigger similar to a good double action trigger, like on a S&W Revolver without the heavy takeup? Meaning there is a long pull then you can feel right before it breaks, then you pull through? I'm in the market for an AE MKII at the moment. </div></div>
No, not at all. With a DA pistol you are cocking the gun and dropping the firing pin or hammer in the same trigger pull. With a two stage trigger the gun is already cocked ready to fire, but instead of a single stage trigger that just breaks when you pull it with little to no movement, the two stage has a takeup where you pull it back to to the first stage, and then break the first stage. For instance if you have the first stage set at 4lbs where it actually breaks and drops the firing pin, and you have your second stage set to 2lbs, you'll pull that stage and hold it, then the next stage will only require another 2lbs of pressure to break.
Re: Accuracy International Kool-aid
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hawk45</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not to get off topic from the OP but is a two-stage trigger similar to a good double action trigger, like on a S&W Revolver without the heavy takeup? Meaning there is a long pull then you can feel right before it breaks, then you pull through? I'm in the market for an AE MKII at the moment. </div></div>Not really.
You have a short takeup of say 2 pounds, with a positive stop. The trigger will break at 4 pounds, but it will feel like 2 pounds because your finger was already holding 2 pounds at the step between 1st and 2nd stage. If that makes sense to you.
-Bob
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hawk45</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not to get off topic from the OP but is a two-stage trigger similar to a good double action trigger, like on a S&W Revolver without the heavy takeup? Meaning there is a long pull then you can feel right before it breaks, then you pull through? I'm in the market for an AE MKII at the moment. </div></div>Not really.
You have a short takeup of say 2 pounds, with a positive stop. The trigger will break at 4 pounds, but it will feel like 2 pounds because your finger was already holding 2 pounds at the step between 1st and 2nd stage. If that makes sense to you.
-Bob
Re: Accuracy International Kool-aid
Guys I shot again this afternoon from the prone position and got completely better results. I was shooting from the bench this morning and I am not a bench shooter. This afternoon, I was able to shoot several, 5 shot one hole groups. I never thought there was a problem with the barrel nor the rifle, I was just commenting on my new exposure to the two stage trigger. I was asking for tips and tricks from you more familiar with this trigger than myself . I know it will require lots of practice to get used to.
Oh and by the way Redneck, I get plenty of trigger time and with quality ammo. I can " drive "
Just as good as any, and better than most. I am definately not
A " FANBOY"
Guys I shot again this afternoon from the prone position and got completely better results. I was shooting from the bench this morning and I am not a bench shooter. This afternoon, I was able to shoot several, 5 shot one hole groups. I never thought there was a problem with the barrel nor the rifle, I was just commenting on my new exposure to the two stage trigger. I was asking for tips and tricks from you more familiar with this trigger than myself . I know it will require lots of practice to get used to.
Oh and by the way Redneck, I get plenty of trigger time and with quality ammo. I can " drive "
Just as good as any, and better than most. I am definately not
A " FANBOY"
Re: Accuracy International Kool-aid
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: redneckbmxer24</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There is break in on any gun regardless of make. Freshly machined metal is not smooth and the best way to make things smooth is shooting it. I don't believe in the barrel break in procedures where you shoot one clean one for so many rounds or any of that BS, I'm one that believe pushing a brush down the barrel that many times is hurting things. I also know that ANY barrel even the hand lapped ones will smooth out (in other words "break in") with some rounds down it, hand lapped ones typically take much less than the non hand lapped, but it still applies to them. Not to mention while your doing this the action will also be smoothing out aswell as the trigger mechanism. Both of mine made a noticeable difference in accuracy, bolt smoothness and trigger smoothness after a couple hundred rounds. After a couple thousand now it's like butter.</div></div>
To a point I agree that there is some wearing in of the trigger and action. There was no noticeable "wear in" the barrel of our AE. It's at 700+ rounds now. It shoots the same as when it was fresh out of the box. I know. I put it on a rest and shot test groups with different ammo.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: redneckbmxer24</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The cheaper the ammo costs, the more trigger time you can get, and the more familiar you get with the gun.</div></div>
There is nothing cheaper than dry fire. I guarantee that it improves your familiarity with the trigger and action MUCH, MUCH more than live fire.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: redneckbmxer24</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As I said there is nothing wrong with ammo only capable of 1MOA to get used to the gun, there have been plenty of competitions won by good shooters with 1MOA guns.</div></div>
Depends on the competition the players and the level involved. The local competition I shot this weekend would not have been won by a 1MOA rifle or a 1MOA shooter. You could have placed well, but not won it.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: redneckbmxer24</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not everybody is set up to reload, or has the time to load enough ammo to get sufficient range time. </div></div>
That is why most instructors will tell you to DRY FIRE. Then spend your money on quality ammo so when you live fire you can VERIFY what you practiced and not have to wonder if it's you or the ammo.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: redneckbmxer24</div><div class="ubbcode-body">don't discourage somebody from using ammo that's plenty accurate so they can get more trigger time.</div></div>
You and I have a different view of "plenty accurate". Thus I will continue to discourage people from practices I don't feel are beneficial.
I really don't care if you enjoy burning barrels out with cheap ammo, or just want to brag about how many rounds you can bang away with. Lately I have been lucky to get to the range once a week. However I practice almost every day. THAT is how you excel at shooting.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: redneckbmxer24</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There is break in on any gun regardless of make. Freshly machined metal is not smooth and the best way to make things smooth is shooting it. I don't believe in the barrel break in procedures where you shoot one clean one for so many rounds or any of that BS, I'm one that believe pushing a brush down the barrel that many times is hurting things. I also know that ANY barrel even the hand lapped ones will smooth out (in other words "break in") with some rounds down it, hand lapped ones typically take much less than the non hand lapped, but it still applies to them. Not to mention while your doing this the action will also be smoothing out aswell as the trigger mechanism. Both of mine made a noticeable difference in accuracy, bolt smoothness and trigger smoothness after a couple hundred rounds. After a couple thousand now it's like butter.</div></div>
To a point I agree that there is some wearing in of the trigger and action. There was no noticeable "wear in" the barrel of our AE. It's at 700+ rounds now. It shoots the same as when it was fresh out of the box. I know. I put it on a rest and shot test groups with different ammo.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: redneckbmxer24</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The cheaper the ammo costs, the more trigger time you can get, and the more familiar you get with the gun.</div></div>
There is nothing cheaper than dry fire. I guarantee that it improves your familiarity with the trigger and action MUCH, MUCH more than live fire.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: redneckbmxer24</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As I said there is nothing wrong with ammo only capable of 1MOA to get used to the gun, there have been plenty of competitions won by good shooters with 1MOA guns.</div></div>
Depends on the competition the players and the level involved. The local competition I shot this weekend would not have been won by a 1MOA rifle or a 1MOA shooter. You could have placed well, but not won it.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: redneckbmxer24</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not everybody is set up to reload, or has the time to load enough ammo to get sufficient range time. </div></div>
That is why most instructors will tell you to DRY FIRE. Then spend your money on quality ammo so when you live fire you can VERIFY what you practiced and not have to wonder if it's you or the ammo.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: redneckbmxer24</div><div class="ubbcode-body">don't discourage somebody from using ammo that's plenty accurate so they can get more trigger time.</div></div>
You and I have a different view of "plenty accurate". Thus I will continue to discourage people from practices I don't feel are beneficial.
I really don't care if you enjoy burning barrels out with cheap ammo, or just want to brag about how many rounds you can bang away with. Lately I have been lucky to get to the range once a week. However I practice almost every day. THAT is how you excel at shooting.
Re: Accuracy International Kool-aid
Yup sounds like you just need some more practice with the trigger via dry firing. Personally, I really dig a 2 stage. My only 2 stage right now is my TRG, but is by far my favorite. The positive engagement during the first stage pull lessens my anticipation and "surprise" of the hammer dropping.
Yup sounds like you just need some more practice with the trigger via dry firing. Personally, I really dig a 2 stage. My only 2 stage right now is my TRG, but is by far my favorite. The positive engagement during the first stage pull lessens my anticipation and "surprise" of the hammer dropping.
Re: Accuracy International Kool-aid
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
To a point I agree that there is some wearing in of the trigger and action. There was no noticeable "wear in" the barrel of our AE. It's at 700+ rounds now. It shoots the same as when it was fresh out of the box. I know. I put it on a rest and shot test groups with different ammo.
There is nothing cheaper than dry fire. I guarantee that it improves your familiarity with the trigger and action MUCH, MUCH more than live fire.
Depends on the competition the players and the level involved. The local competition I shot this weekend would not have been won by a 1MOA rifle or a 1MOA shooter. You could have placed well, but not won it.
That is why most instructors will tell you to DRY FIRE. Then spend your money on quality ammo so when you live fire you can VERIFY what you practiced and not have to wonder if it's you or the ammo.
You and I have a different view of "plenty accurate". Thus I will continue to discourage people from practices I don't feel are beneficial.
I really don't care if you enjoy burning barrels out with cheap ammo, or just want to brag about how many rounds you can bang away with. Lately I have been lucky to get to the range once a week. However I practice almost every day. THAT is how you excel at shooting. </div></div>
Like I said ANY barrel regardless of make or being hand lapped will completely break in with some rounds down the tube. If you didn't notice this it's because you weren't looking for it and was probably because you were testing different ammuntion as you said. I've broken in atleast 30 new barrels on precision rifles from stock remingtons and a couple savages to customs from Rock Creek, Krieger, Broughton, Shilen, and the LW on my AE MKI and every last one of them have hit a accuracy node once they have hit that round count. Most of the quality barrels only take 20-50 rounds most of which is done by the builder, and factory barrels tend to take 100-200 rounds for this to occur.
You can dry fire all day but it is still no replacement for sending rounds down range. You don't get the practice with dry fire that you do by physically putting rounds on target. I'm all for shooting quality ammo, the barrel on my AE is over 2K rounds now with probably only 300 being M80 ball, and the rest FGMM and 155 Scenar handloads and 200 or so subsonics. I'm sitting on about 500 rounds of FGMM that I'm saving for if I need ammo and can't reload and 300 rounds of 155's loaded up and enough components components to load about 1500 more. I still have 4 or 5 battlepacks for a rainy day, if I'm in a pinch I can use it and be minute of head to 600 yards and it will not hurt the rifle in any way.
As for burning the barrel out. 1000 rounds of handloads cost me just under $600 to load with Lapua bullets reusing Lapua brass with varget and winchester primers. I spend $100 a weekend in fuel driving to shoot, and spend a few hundred a month atleast on gear to feed my passion. When you add all this up what is $500 for a new barrel or $300 for used ones that pop up here quite often and last 10000 rounds and 3-5 years. LR shooting is not cheap, if you have a problem putting a $300-500 barrel on a gun every few years then it's not for you.
You act as if I told the OP "don't buy that expensive match ammo, you don't need that junk" when I merely suggest putting a couple hundred rounds of cheap ammo down range to get a feel for the gun and break things in. Please explain to me so that as long as you are holding MOA, and hitting what your aiming at that how it would not be beneficial to put a couple hundred rounds down range. The few hundred I shot out of my AI none of my targets went on strike because they weren't being shot with match grade ammo nor did any of them get up and run away. If anything its only better practice because the margin of error is half of what it would be with match ammo to stay on target when wind is a factor, you HAVE to judge and hold correctly for wind every shot so your that much better with premium ammo. Once again please explain how this is so bad?
Yes there are matches that couldn't be won with a 1MOA rifle but as you pointed out a 1MOA shooter and rifle would have done well, there are many matches that have been won by a shooter that knows his 1MOA rifle like the back of his hand. Your jumping to conclusions acting like I suggested the OP should shoot matchs with this ammo, I was only using it as a example and either way you slice it 1MOA is acceptable accuracy. If you have ammo capable of consistent MOA you're still going to notice any error just like if you were shooting ammo capable of consistent 1/2MOA.
I would never suggest anybody try to shoot a match with ball ammo especially when it drops off after 600 yards but if you want to put rounds down range and don't reload its NOTHING but beneficial to be able to shoot 2X the ammo. You gain the most experience by sending lead down range, not sitting in your house pulling the trigger. Dry firing is always good additional practice for trigger technique and breathing control but it doesn't beat rounds down range. You don't get to "know your rifle" by dry firing other than the trigger aspect.
Any way you look at it to put 200 rounds of M80 down range it will only cost you $75 or so and will hurt nothing.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
To a point I agree that there is some wearing in of the trigger and action. There was no noticeable "wear in" the barrel of our AE. It's at 700+ rounds now. It shoots the same as when it was fresh out of the box. I know. I put it on a rest and shot test groups with different ammo.
There is nothing cheaper than dry fire. I guarantee that it improves your familiarity with the trigger and action MUCH, MUCH more than live fire.
Depends on the competition the players and the level involved. The local competition I shot this weekend would not have been won by a 1MOA rifle or a 1MOA shooter. You could have placed well, but not won it.
That is why most instructors will tell you to DRY FIRE. Then spend your money on quality ammo so when you live fire you can VERIFY what you practiced and not have to wonder if it's you or the ammo.
You and I have a different view of "plenty accurate". Thus I will continue to discourage people from practices I don't feel are beneficial.
I really don't care if you enjoy burning barrels out with cheap ammo, or just want to brag about how many rounds you can bang away with. Lately I have been lucky to get to the range once a week. However I practice almost every day. THAT is how you excel at shooting. </div></div>
Like I said ANY barrel regardless of make or being hand lapped will completely break in with some rounds down the tube. If you didn't notice this it's because you weren't looking for it and was probably because you were testing different ammuntion as you said. I've broken in atleast 30 new barrels on precision rifles from stock remingtons and a couple savages to customs from Rock Creek, Krieger, Broughton, Shilen, and the LW on my AE MKI and every last one of them have hit a accuracy node once they have hit that round count. Most of the quality barrels only take 20-50 rounds most of which is done by the builder, and factory barrels tend to take 100-200 rounds for this to occur.
You can dry fire all day but it is still no replacement for sending rounds down range. You don't get the practice with dry fire that you do by physically putting rounds on target. I'm all for shooting quality ammo, the barrel on my AE is over 2K rounds now with probably only 300 being M80 ball, and the rest FGMM and 155 Scenar handloads and 200 or so subsonics. I'm sitting on about 500 rounds of FGMM that I'm saving for if I need ammo and can't reload and 300 rounds of 155's loaded up and enough components components to load about 1500 more. I still have 4 or 5 battlepacks for a rainy day, if I'm in a pinch I can use it and be minute of head to 600 yards and it will not hurt the rifle in any way.
As for burning the barrel out. 1000 rounds of handloads cost me just under $600 to load with Lapua bullets reusing Lapua brass with varget and winchester primers. I spend $100 a weekend in fuel driving to shoot, and spend a few hundred a month atleast on gear to feed my passion. When you add all this up what is $500 for a new barrel or $300 for used ones that pop up here quite often and last 10000 rounds and 3-5 years. LR shooting is not cheap, if you have a problem putting a $300-500 barrel on a gun every few years then it's not for you.
You act as if I told the OP "don't buy that expensive match ammo, you don't need that junk" when I merely suggest putting a couple hundred rounds of cheap ammo down range to get a feel for the gun and break things in. Please explain to me so that as long as you are holding MOA, and hitting what your aiming at that how it would not be beneficial to put a couple hundred rounds down range. The few hundred I shot out of my AI none of my targets went on strike because they weren't being shot with match grade ammo nor did any of them get up and run away. If anything its only better practice because the margin of error is half of what it would be with match ammo to stay on target when wind is a factor, you HAVE to judge and hold correctly for wind every shot so your that much better with premium ammo. Once again please explain how this is so bad?
Yes there are matches that couldn't be won with a 1MOA rifle but as you pointed out a 1MOA shooter and rifle would have done well, there are many matches that have been won by a shooter that knows his 1MOA rifle like the back of his hand. Your jumping to conclusions acting like I suggested the OP should shoot matchs with this ammo, I was only using it as a example and either way you slice it 1MOA is acceptable accuracy. If you have ammo capable of consistent MOA you're still going to notice any error just like if you were shooting ammo capable of consistent 1/2MOA.
I would never suggest anybody try to shoot a match with ball ammo especially when it drops off after 600 yards but if you want to put rounds down range and don't reload its NOTHING but beneficial to be able to shoot 2X the ammo. You gain the most experience by sending lead down range, not sitting in your house pulling the trigger. Dry firing is always good additional practice for trigger technique and breathing control but it doesn't beat rounds down range. You don't get to "know your rifle" by dry firing other than the trigger aspect.
Any way you look at it to put 200 rounds of M80 down range it will only cost you $75 or so and will hurt nothing.
Re: Accuracy International Kool-aid
I shot 2 stage triggers for many years..my TRG-22 had one, and all my custom AR-15's also. My Armalite AR-10T had an excellent 2 stage.
I should also say that I shoot at least 100 rounds per week thru my rifles, and 200 thru my 1911. There is no substitute for trigger time firing live rounds.
I also will mention that I installed a Rifle Basix trigger in my newest build, set to 28 oz., and am shooting "lights out" with it. I can predict moving away from 2 stage triggers from now on.
I shot 2 stage triggers for many years..my TRG-22 had one, and all my custom AR-15's also. My Armalite AR-10T had an excellent 2 stage.
I should also say that I shoot at least 100 rounds per week thru my rifles, and 200 thru my 1911. There is no substitute for trigger time firing live rounds.
I also will mention that I installed a Rifle Basix trigger in my newest build, set to 28 oz., and am shooting "lights out" with it. I can predict moving away from 2 stage triggers from now on.
Re: Accuracy International Kool-aid
Off topic, but sure would like to see some pics of your AI beauty
Off topic, but sure would like to see some pics of your AI beauty
Re: Accuracy International Kool-aid
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: redneckbmxer24</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There is break in on any gun regardless of make. Freshly machined metal is not smooth and the best way to make things smooth is shooting it. I don't believe in the barrel break in procedures where you shoot one clean one for so many rounds or any of that BS, I'm one that believe pushing a brush down the barrel that many times is hurting things. I also know that ANY barrel even the hand lapped ones will smooth out (in other words "break in") with some rounds down it, hand lapped ones typically take much less than the non hand lapped, but it still applies to them. Not to mention while your doing this the action will also be smoothing out aswell as the trigger mechanism. Both of mine made a noticeable difference in accuracy, bolt smoothness and trigger smoothness after a couple hundred rounds. After a couple thousand now it's like butter.</div></div>
To a point I agree that there is some wearing in of the trigger and action. There was no noticeable "wear in" the barrel of our AE. It's at 700+ rounds now. It shoots the same as when it was fresh out of the box. I know. I put it on a rest and shot test groups with different ammo.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: redneckbmxer24</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The cheaper the ammo costs, the more trigger time you can get, and the more familiar you get with the gun.</div></div>
There is nothing cheaper than dry fire. I guarantee that it improves your familiarity with the trigger and action MUCH, MUCH more than live fire.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: redneckbmxer24</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As I said there is nothing wrong with ammo only capable of 1MOA to get used to the gun, there have been plenty of competitions won by good shooters with 1MOA guns.</div></div>
Depends on the competition the players and the level involved. The local competition I shot this weekend would not have been won by a 1MOA rifle or a 1MOA shooter. You could have placed well, but not won it.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: redneckbmxer24</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not everybody is set up to reload, or has the time to load enough ammo to get sufficient range time. </div></div>
That is why most instructors will tell you to DRY FIRE. Then spend your money on quality ammo so when you live fire you can VERIFY what you practiced and not have to wonder if it's you or the ammo.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: redneckbmxer24</div><div class="ubbcode-body">don't discourage somebody from using ammo that's plenty accurate so they can get more trigger time.</div></div>
You and I have a different view of "plenty accurate". Thus I will continue to discourage people from practices I don't feel are beneficial.
I really don't care if you enjoy burning barrels out with cheap ammo, or just want to brag about how many rounds you can bang away with. Lately I have been lucky to get to the range once a week. However I practice almost every day. THAT is how you excel at shooting.</div></div>
I think this philosophy cuts both ways. Dry fire is good and important, I agree. But dry fire does not teach recoil management, which is one of my toughest areas. From that standpoint, live fire is far more useful.
On the flip side, shooting inaccurate ammo can erode one's confidence in one's abilities, or worse, cause a shooter to start wrongly compensating for something that isn't wrong to begin with.
The more accurate the rifle, IMO, the better a training tool it is during live fire. For that reason, I think it doesn't make sense to cheap out on the ammo unless the shooter is just going to shoot it into a berm, and I haven't seen anyone do that. People want the feedback that live fire gives them, be it holes in paper or rings from a gong.
Bottom line... dry fire is great. Live fire is better. And good practice requires both.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: redneckbmxer24</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There is break in on any gun regardless of make. Freshly machined metal is not smooth and the best way to make things smooth is shooting it. I don't believe in the barrel break in procedures where you shoot one clean one for so many rounds or any of that BS, I'm one that believe pushing a brush down the barrel that many times is hurting things. I also know that ANY barrel even the hand lapped ones will smooth out (in other words "break in") with some rounds down it, hand lapped ones typically take much less than the non hand lapped, but it still applies to them. Not to mention while your doing this the action will also be smoothing out aswell as the trigger mechanism. Both of mine made a noticeable difference in accuracy, bolt smoothness and trigger smoothness after a couple hundred rounds. After a couple thousand now it's like butter.</div></div>
To a point I agree that there is some wearing in of the trigger and action. There was no noticeable "wear in" the barrel of our AE. It's at 700+ rounds now. It shoots the same as when it was fresh out of the box. I know. I put it on a rest and shot test groups with different ammo.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: redneckbmxer24</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The cheaper the ammo costs, the more trigger time you can get, and the more familiar you get with the gun.</div></div>
There is nothing cheaper than dry fire. I guarantee that it improves your familiarity with the trigger and action MUCH, MUCH more than live fire.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: redneckbmxer24</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As I said there is nothing wrong with ammo only capable of 1MOA to get used to the gun, there have been plenty of competitions won by good shooters with 1MOA guns.</div></div>
Depends on the competition the players and the level involved. The local competition I shot this weekend would not have been won by a 1MOA rifle or a 1MOA shooter. You could have placed well, but not won it.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: redneckbmxer24</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not everybody is set up to reload, or has the time to load enough ammo to get sufficient range time. </div></div>
That is why most instructors will tell you to DRY FIRE. Then spend your money on quality ammo so when you live fire you can VERIFY what you practiced and not have to wonder if it's you or the ammo.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: redneckbmxer24</div><div class="ubbcode-body">don't discourage somebody from using ammo that's plenty accurate so they can get more trigger time.</div></div>
You and I have a different view of "plenty accurate". Thus I will continue to discourage people from practices I don't feel are beneficial.
I really don't care if you enjoy burning barrels out with cheap ammo, or just want to brag about how many rounds you can bang away with. Lately I have been lucky to get to the range once a week. However I practice almost every day. THAT is how you excel at shooting.</div></div>
I think this philosophy cuts both ways. Dry fire is good and important, I agree. But dry fire does not teach recoil management, which is one of my toughest areas. From that standpoint, live fire is far more useful.
On the flip side, shooting inaccurate ammo can erode one's confidence in one's abilities, or worse, cause a shooter to start wrongly compensating for something that isn't wrong to begin with.
The more accurate the rifle, IMO, the better a training tool it is during live fire. For that reason, I think it doesn't make sense to cheap out on the ammo unless the shooter is just going to shoot it into a berm, and I haven't seen anyone do that. People want the feedback that live fire gives them, be it holes in paper or rings from a gong.
Bottom line... dry fire is great. Live fire is better. And good practice requires both.
Re: Accuracy International Kool-aid
I read through and see several good points made. Trigger and weapon ergo's are most important to get "comfortable" with before you can really drive the system, a little time and it will all come together.
As for the trigger, no change occurs obviously, just a totally new system and feel which will be completely unfamiliar therefore, more trigger time required to get the "muscle memory". Now whether its dry firing or live fire, that is all your decision but both are excellent training methods and would recommend both worked to improve muscle memory.
Barrel break in is not so important on the AI IMHO! Can I recommend it, sure. Do I do it, sometimes. Have I seen a difference between the two methods, sometimes. I shot lots of rounds and AI systems and have for many years. If I get a barrel I don't like, I pull it and replace it. That barrel will go on the shelf and will get another chance with another weapon another day. If it fails again to impress me, then it becomes my ball/tracer/ap/junk barrel to shoot as hard as I can and don't worry about wear!
Ammo discussion, I am not going there LOL.
I read through and see several good points made. Trigger and weapon ergo's are most important to get "comfortable" with before you can really drive the system, a little time and it will all come together.
As for the trigger, no change occurs obviously, just a totally new system and feel which will be completely unfamiliar therefore, more trigger time required to get the "muscle memory". Now whether its dry firing or live fire, that is all your decision but both are excellent training methods and would recommend both worked to improve muscle memory.
Barrel break in is not so important on the AI IMHO! Can I recommend it, sure. Do I do it, sometimes. Have I seen a difference between the two methods, sometimes. I shot lots of rounds and AI systems and have for many years. If I get a barrel I don't like, I pull it and replace it. That barrel will go on the shelf and will get another chance with another weapon another day. If it fails again to impress me, then it becomes my ball/tracer/ap/junk barrel to shoot as hard as I can and don't worry about wear!
Ammo discussion, I am not going there LOL.
Re: Accuracy International Kool-aid
I just got an AE Mk II a few weeks ago and have spent alot of time trying to get use to a 2 stage trigger. I've only had a chance to take it to the range once but must agree that shooting live rounds is best for telling if you are driving the rifle right. You may be developing a bad habit dry firing and not know it until you get on the range.
I just got an AE Mk II a few weeks ago and have spent alot of time trying to get use to a 2 stage trigger. I've only had a chance to take it to the range once but must agree that shooting live rounds is best for telling if you are driving the rifle right. You may be developing a bad habit dry firing and not know it until you get on the range.
Re: Accuracy International Kool-aid
As far as the break in on the barrel- the barrel in question was a Bartlein, yes? If so- I have talked to the smith that is fitting these barrels, and he hand laps them in the finishing process, so no break in should be required (if you believe in that sort of thing.)
As for 1 moa ammo- I can see that being useful for me for positional practice, but that's about it. Positional, I am like 6moa at this point, so the ammo wouldn't be a limiting factor there.
As far as the break in on the barrel- the barrel in question was a Bartlein, yes? If so- I have talked to the smith that is fitting these barrels, and he hand laps them in the finishing process, so no break in should be required (if you believe in that sort of thing.)
As for 1 moa ammo- I can see that being useful for me for positional practice, but that's about it. Positional, I am like 6moa at this point, so the ammo wouldn't be a limiting factor there.
Re: Accuracy International Kool-aid
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bm11</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As for 1 moa ammo- I can see that being useful for me for positional practice, but that's about it. Positional, I am like 6moa at this point, so the ammo wouldn't be a limiting factor there. </div></div>
I will concede that for offhand practice ammo less than 1 MOA is a waste for most of us.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bm11</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As for 1 moa ammo- I can see that being useful for me for positional practice, but that's about it. Positional, I am like 6moa at this point, so the ammo wouldn't be a limiting factor there. </div></div>
I will concede that for offhand practice ammo less than 1 MOA is a waste for most of us.
Re: Accuracy International Kool-aid
Here's my $.02 fwiw.
Some of the best shots in the country spend huge amounts of their trigger pulling time by dry firing. It's been recommended that there should be about 60 rounds of dry fire for every live round sent down range. I admit I fall way below what I should be doing lately.
Ashland, I respectfully totally disagree with your comment about developing bad habits dry firing. If you're doing that then you're dry fire routine is not what it should be. It's not the number of times you dry fire, it's the number of times you dry fire exactly right that matters. you can iron out practically every problem with dry firing. If your point of aim is small enough and you're using the fundamentals of marksmanship correctly you can tell when the cross hair moves any at all and be able to diagnose problems that you have trouble seeing when live firing.
Here's my $.02 fwiw.
Some of the best shots in the country spend huge amounts of their trigger pulling time by dry firing. It's been recommended that there should be about 60 rounds of dry fire for every live round sent down range. I admit I fall way below what I should be doing lately.
Ashland, I respectfully totally disagree with your comment about developing bad habits dry firing. If you're doing that then you're dry fire routine is not what it should be. It's not the number of times you dry fire, it's the number of times you dry fire exactly right that matters. you can iron out practically every problem with dry firing. If your point of aim is small enough and you're using the fundamentals of marksmanship correctly you can tell when the cross hair moves any at all and be able to diagnose problems that you have trouble seeing when live firing.
Re: Accuracy International Kool-aid
Tony, I try and dry fire during my lunch brake every day and had a good routine. Worked hard on getting the fundamentals down pat. However, when I went to the range what I practiced wasn't working for me on the dot drill. I'm not saying that dry firing is a waste of time at all and didn't mean to imply that. For me it takes seeing what works on the dot drill and trying to do that over and over.
Don't want to get off topic, I chimed in because I'm trying to get used to my AI too. I'll agree with an earlier post that its a new gun and will take time to get used to it.
Tony, I try and dry fire during my lunch brake every day and had a good routine. Worked hard on getting the fundamentals down pat. However, when I went to the range what I practiced wasn't working for me on the dot drill. I'm not saying that dry firing is a waste of time at all and didn't mean to imply that. For me it takes seeing what works on the dot drill and trying to do that over and over.
Don't want to get off topic, I chimed in because I'm trying to get used to my AI too. I'll agree with an earlier post that its a new gun and will take time to get used to it.
Re: Accuracy International Kool-aid
ashland the key is "Perfect Practice".
I was out of my dry fire routine for some time. I could tell on paper when I went to the range. Now that I have gotten back onto it I am cleaning drills that I was tossing shots on before.
When you live fire, recoil will slightly disrupt your sight picture no matter how good you are. If you are not very experienced at calling your shots then you loose out on one of the most beneficial parts of live fire. Even a novice can see where his reticle was sitting when the firing pin drops during live fire.
Additionally, with dry fire on a high magnification scope and a precision target, you can detect VERY, VERY small movements in the system. I can actually tell when I didn't get a perfect rearward pressure on the trigger because the reticle will shift about a knats ass to one side or the other. This movement would be imperceptible with live rounds and if you are shooting 1 MOA ammo you would never see it on the target. Shooting 1/4 MOA capable ammo will demonstrate it, but few of us have the budget to burn 200 rounds of FGMM every day.
To come full circle. When my AI arrived I took some pics, mounted up a scope and spent days dry firing it. I probably had a thousand repetitions on it before I fired the first shot through the barrel. It really does make you feel at home on the system.
ashland the key is "Perfect Practice".
I was out of my dry fire routine for some time. I could tell on paper when I went to the range. Now that I have gotten back onto it I am cleaning drills that I was tossing shots on before.
When you live fire, recoil will slightly disrupt your sight picture no matter how good you are. If you are not very experienced at calling your shots then you loose out on one of the most beneficial parts of live fire. Even a novice can see where his reticle was sitting when the firing pin drops during live fire.
Additionally, with dry fire on a high magnification scope and a precision target, you can detect VERY, VERY small movements in the system. I can actually tell when I didn't get a perfect rearward pressure on the trigger because the reticle will shift about a knats ass to one side or the other. This movement would be imperceptible with live rounds and if you are shooting 1 MOA ammo you would never see it on the target. Shooting 1/4 MOA capable ammo will demonstrate it, but few of us have the budget to burn 200 rounds of FGMM every day.
To come full circle. When my AI arrived I took some pics, mounted up a scope and spent days dry firing it. I probably had a thousand repetitions on it before I fired the first shot through the barrel. It really does make you feel at home on the system.
Re: Accuracy International Kool-aid
Wolf, as soon as I got my AI I put a scope on it and took off to the range. It takes some getting use to but I bought the AI for the long haul. I'm going through a barrel a year now(.260) and bought the AI so I could change the barrel myself. I'm tired of sending rifles off for work. I'm going to learn to run this system. May take some time but I'll do it. My AE was shooting .348 with my hand loads and .5 with BH ammo. I'm happy with that. It will get better with time.
Sorry OP for hijacking your thread.
Wolf, as soon as I got my AI I put a scope on it and took off to the range. It takes some getting use to but I bought the AI for the long haul. I'm going through a barrel a year now(.260) and bought the AI so I could change the barrel myself. I'm tired of sending rifles off for work. I'm going to learn to run this system. May take some time but I'll do it. My AE was shooting .348 with my hand loads and .5 with BH ammo. I'm happy with that. It will get better with time.
Sorry OP for hijacking your thread.
Re: Accuracy International Kool-aid
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I think this philosophy cuts both ways. Dry fire is good and important, I agree. But dry fire does not teach recoil management, which is one of my toughest areas. From that standpoint, live fire is far more useful.
On the flip side, shooting inaccurate ammo can erode one's confidence in one's abilities, or worse, cause a shooter to start wrongly compensating for something that isn't wrong to begin with.
The more accurate the rifle, IMO, the better a training tool it is during live fire. For that reason, I think it doesn't make sense to cheap out on the ammo unless the shooter is just going to shoot it into a berm, and I haven't seen anyone do that. People want the feedback that live fire gives them, be it holes in paper or rings from a gong.
Bottom line... dry fire is great. Live fire is better. And good practice requires both. </div></div>
Everybody is still reffering to cheap inaccurate ammo when its NOT. What about 1MOA is not accurate? Sure it's not 1/4 or 1/2MOA but fact is most on this forum aren't 1/2 or 1/4MOA shooters, so long as the accuracy is CONSISTENT you can still see if your doing something wrong. There are plenty of Factory Remington's and Savages that will only shoot 1MOA with the best match ammo or handloads. Consistency is key. And by the price theory my handloads that cost me under $.60 a round are "cheap" when they're loaded with some of the best components available. Once again I'm not advocating buying a crap ton of ball ammo and blasting away but some of you guys act like it's some sort of sin to shoot it, or the steel is going to notice the difference.
If your rifle doesn't shoot ball well or consistently then don't it, but if it shoots it well there is absolutely nothing wrong with it.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I think this philosophy cuts both ways. Dry fire is good and important, I agree. But dry fire does not teach recoil management, which is one of my toughest areas. From that standpoint, live fire is far more useful.
On the flip side, shooting inaccurate ammo can erode one's confidence in one's abilities, or worse, cause a shooter to start wrongly compensating for something that isn't wrong to begin with.
The more accurate the rifle, IMO, the better a training tool it is during live fire. For that reason, I think it doesn't make sense to cheap out on the ammo unless the shooter is just going to shoot it into a berm, and I haven't seen anyone do that. People want the feedback that live fire gives them, be it holes in paper or rings from a gong.
Bottom line... dry fire is great. Live fire is better. And good practice requires both. </div></div>
Everybody is still reffering to cheap inaccurate ammo when its NOT. What about 1MOA is not accurate? Sure it's not 1/4 or 1/2MOA but fact is most on this forum aren't 1/2 or 1/4MOA shooters, so long as the accuracy is CONSISTENT you can still see if your doing something wrong. There are plenty of Factory Remington's and Savages that will only shoot 1MOA with the best match ammo or handloads. Consistency is key. And by the price theory my handloads that cost me under $.60 a round are "cheap" when they're loaded with some of the best components available. Once again I'm not advocating buying a crap ton of ball ammo and blasting away but some of you guys act like it's some sort of sin to shoot it, or the steel is going to notice the difference.
If your rifle doesn't shoot ball well or consistently then don't it, but if it shoots it well there is absolutely nothing wrong with it.
Re: Accuracy International Kool-aid
I don't feel I'm an exceptional shooter, but I am pretty capable of turning out a .5 moa group at will, and even shooting large dots on the dot drill, I can tell the difference between 1 moa ammo and .5 moa ammo.
I'm not saying I can hit a 1 moa target, first round, at any distance by any means, but at 100 yards, prone, and under no time constraints, .5 moa isn't hard to do.
But I guess if you were a 2 moa shooter trying to get to 1 moa, 1 moa ammo would do. I just am of the opinion that I want the accuracy variable to be ME, so that when I miss, I don't question the equipment, and can more objectively analyze what I did wrong.
This is one of the biggest reasons that I spent the money to buy an Accuracy International as opposed to keeping my SPS Tactical.
But, to each their own!
I don't feel I'm an exceptional shooter, but I am pretty capable of turning out a .5 moa group at will, and even shooting large dots on the dot drill, I can tell the difference between 1 moa ammo and .5 moa ammo.
I'm not saying I can hit a 1 moa target, first round, at any distance by any means, but at 100 yards, prone, and under no time constraints, .5 moa isn't hard to do.
But I guess if you were a 2 moa shooter trying to get to 1 moa, 1 moa ammo would do. I just am of the opinion that I want the accuracy variable to be ME, so that when I miss, I don't question the equipment, and can more objectively analyze what I did wrong.
This is one of the biggest reasons that I spent the money to buy an Accuracy International as opposed to keeping my SPS Tactical.
But, to each their own!
Re: Accuracy International Kool-aid
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: redneckbmxer24</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Everybody is still reffering to cheap inaccurate ammo when its NOT. What about 1MOA is not accurate?</div></div>
Why are you having a hard time understanding that on a forum dedicated to precision rifles, that 1 MOA ammo is not acceptable?
If you hand a 1 MOA shooter a rifle with 1 MOA ammo it doesn't mean you are going to see a 1 MOA group on the target. 1 + 1 don't equal 1.
If I am going to teach someone to be precise I don't hand them tools that are not capable of the level of precision I expect.
Sure there are piles of Rifles that are only capable of 1 MOA or more. I don't call them "precision" rifles. They are just rifles. My SPS-V came out of the box at better than 1 MOA. It now shoots somewhere near half that.
If you are shooting 1 MOA ammo and you have a rip-roaring day at the range and clean a dot drill I am sure you will jump up and down and say you are shit hot. Then the next day when you blow it out your ass and miss half of them.....do you blame it on the ammo? It's within the tolerance range of it. So who is to blame for the misses?
Well, I guess it doesn't matter because the ammo assisted you in familiarizing yourself with the noise and recoil impulse of the weapon. So it was a productive day at the range.
Brother I have no problem with you going to the range and burning up your rifles with Port or Dag. I just really don't care. It's bordering on a Shakespearean tragedy when you attempt to convince others that it will improve their marksmanship skills over a proper dry-fire routine and live fire verification with match ammo.
<span style="font-weight: bold">Finally, you don't buy an AI because you are satisfied with 1 MOA accuracy.</span>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: redneckbmxer24</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Everybody is still reffering to cheap inaccurate ammo when its NOT. What about 1MOA is not accurate?</div></div>
Why are you having a hard time understanding that on a forum dedicated to precision rifles, that 1 MOA ammo is not acceptable?
If you hand a 1 MOA shooter a rifle with 1 MOA ammo it doesn't mean you are going to see a 1 MOA group on the target. 1 + 1 don't equal 1.
If I am going to teach someone to be precise I don't hand them tools that are not capable of the level of precision I expect.
Sure there are piles of Rifles that are only capable of 1 MOA or more. I don't call them "precision" rifles. They are just rifles. My SPS-V came out of the box at better than 1 MOA. It now shoots somewhere near half that.
If you are shooting 1 MOA ammo and you have a rip-roaring day at the range and clean a dot drill I am sure you will jump up and down and say you are shit hot. Then the next day when you blow it out your ass and miss half of them.....do you blame it on the ammo? It's within the tolerance range of it. So who is to blame for the misses?
Well, I guess it doesn't matter because the ammo assisted you in familiarizing yourself with the noise and recoil impulse of the weapon. So it was a productive day at the range.
Brother I have no problem with you going to the range and burning up your rifles with Port or Dag. I just really don't care. It's bordering on a Shakespearean tragedy when you attempt to convince others that it will improve their marksmanship skills over a proper dry-fire routine and live fire verification with match ammo.
<span style="font-weight: bold">Finally, you don't buy an AI because you are satisfied with 1 MOA accuracy.</span>
Re: Accuracy International Kool-aid
Okay great, we're all .5 moa shooters here. What he's trying to say is that if you can shoot .5 moa with your match ammo and then find some ammo that will shoot "only" 1 moa consistently in your rifle then you know you're still within your capabilities if you're shooting one inch groups. If you're shooting 1.5 moa then you'd have been shooting 1 moa with your match loads. You're still getting the same performance from you and your rifle if you're within the performance window of the cheaper, although consistent, ammo.
Is that what you're saying Redneck?
People are also talking about two different animals here. One group is laying prone, no time constraints and shooting groups. The other group is talking about match conditions.
I only wish I could hold 1 moa during match conditions cause I'd be winning matches. I have yet to see a single ".5 moa all day" shooter at a single match I've shot over the last several years. Not singling you out bm11 cause you included what you're parameters are. Some people act like they can do that all the time under any conditions, and it's not happening.
Okay great, we're all .5 moa shooters here. What he's trying to say is that if you can shoot .5 moa with your match ammo and then find some ammo that will shoot "only" 1 moa consistently in your rifle then you know you're still within your capabilities if you're shooting one inch groups. If you're shooting 1.5 moa then you'd have been shooting 1 moa with your match loads. You're still getting the same performance from you and your rifle if you're within the performance window of the cheaper, although consistent, ammo.
Is that what you're saying Redneck?
People are also talking about two different animals here. One group is laying prone, no time constraints and shooting groups. The other group is talking about match conditions.
I only wish I could hold 1 moa during match conditions cause I'd be winning matches. I have yet to see a single ".5 moa all day" shooter at a single match I've shot over the last several years. Not singling you out bm11 cause you included what you're parameters are. Some people act like they can do that all the time under any conditions, and it's not happening.
Re: Accuracy International Kool-aid
Tburkes- I was talking about shooting prone with no time constraints to clarify that I don't unrealistically think of myself as a .5 moa shooter at all distances and conditions.
I guess I'd want to know how "cheap" this 1 moa ammo is. You can get Gold Medal Match for 90 cents apiece right now, and you can sell the empties for about 20 cents apiece. So you can shoot Gold Medal for about 70 cents a round.
Tburkes- I was talking about shooting prone with no time constraints to clarify that I don't unrealistically think of myself as a .5 moa shooter at all distances and conditions.
I guess I'd want to know how "cheap" this 1 moa ammo is. You can get Gold Medal Match for 90 cents apiece right now, and you can sell the empties for about 20 cents apiece. So you can shoot Gold Medal for about 70 cents a round.
Re: Accuracy International Kool-aid
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tburkes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I only wish I could hold 1 moa during match conditions cause I'd be winning matches. I have yet to see a single ".5 moa all day" shooter at a single match I've shot over the last several years. Not singling you out bm11 cause you included what you're parameters are. Some people act like they can do that all the time under any conditions, and it's not happening. </div></div>
Tony, I agree to an extent. However you and I both know that during a match at any one point there may be stages where you better be able to deliver 1/2 MOA accuracy or you are out of the running. That doesn't mean you have to hold that across the board. Several of the large matches I have shot run offhand stages. You are not going to shoot 1 MOA offhand after cranking out pushups or a run. When you get to the KYL stage you better be able to do sub-MOA or you just "donated" your entry fee.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tburkes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I only wish I could hold 1 moa during match conditions cause I'd be winning matches. I have yet to see a single ".5 moa all day" shooter at a single match I've shot over the last several years. Not singling you out bm11 cause you included what you're parameters are. Some people act like they can do that all the time under any conditions, and it's not happening. </div></div>
Tony, I agree to an extent. However you and I both know that during a match at any one point there may be stages where you better be able to deliver 1/2 MOA accuracy or you are out of the running. That doesn't mean you have to hold that across the board. Several of the large matches I have shot run offhand stages. You are not going to shoot 1 MOA offhand after cranking out pushups or a run. When you get to the KYL stage you better be able to do sub-MOA or you just "donated" your entry fee.
Re: Accuracy International Kool-aid
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Why are you having a hard time understanding that on a forum dedicated to precision rifles, that 1 MOA ammo is not acceptable?
If you hand a 1 MOA shooter a rifle with 1 MOA ammo it doesn't mean you are going to see a 1 MOA group on the target. 1 + 1 don't equal 1.
<span style="font-weight: bold">Finally, you don't buy an AI because you are satisfied with 1 MOA accuracy.</span> </div></div>
We're just going to have to agree to disagree because you keep twisting my words, you did it in this post again. When did I EVER say I was satisfied with 1MOA? I said 1MOA is acceptable accuracy which it is, and that's what I've said all along. If you get trigger time and master the weapon system you will know you have it when you can hold the maximum accuracy that ammo is capable of whether it is 1/2 MOA or 1MOA. What part of this don't you understand? Now your playing math teacher saying 1+1 isn't 1, well no shit sherlock. If you hand a shooter a rifle and a bunch of ammo regardless of whether that ammo is 1/2MOA or 1MOA rifle so long as its consistent IF HE TRAINS TO THE POINT HE CAN HOLD THE MAXIMUM ACCURACY THAT AMMUNITION IS CAPABLE OF HE HAS MASTERED THE WEAPON. Once again, what part of this do you not understand?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tburkes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Okay great, we're all .5 moa shooters here. What he's trying to say is that if you can shoot .5 moa with your match ammo and then find some ammo that will shoot "only" 1 moa consistently in your rifle then you know you're still within your capabilities if you're shooting one inch groups. If you're shooting 1.5 moa then you'd have been shooting 1 moa with your match loads. You're still getting the same performance from you and your rifle if you're within the performance window of the cheaper, although consistent, ammo.
Is that what you're saying Redneck?
People are also talking about two different animals here. One group is laying prone, no time constraints and shooting groups. The other group is talking about match conditions.
I only wish I could hold 1 moa during match conditions cause I'd be winning matches. I have yet to see a single ".5 moa all day" shooter at a single match I've shot over the last several years. Not singling you out bm11 cause you included what you're parameters are. Some people act like they can do that all the time under any conditions, and it's not happening. </div></div>
This is exactly what I'm trying to say Tony! I'm glad theres somebody else out there that understands.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Tony, I agree to an extent. However you and I both know that during a match at any one point there may be stages where you better be able to deliver 1/2 MOA accuracy or you are out of the running. That doesn't mean you have to hold that across the board. Several of the large matches I have shot run offhand stages. You are not going to shoot 1 MOA offhand after cranking out pushups or a run. When you get to the KYL stage you better be able to do sub-MOA or you just "donated" your entry fee. </div></div>
Once again, your acting like I suggest people shoot go shoot a match with this ammo. Are you dense? If you can shoot a weapon to the max of the ammo's capabilities you can shoot a weapons the the max of the ammo's capabilities. There's no arguing with that it's simple common sense.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Why are you having a hard time understanding that on a forum dedicated to precision rifles, that 1 MOA ammo is not acceptable?
If you hand a 1 MOA shooter a rifle with 1 MOA ammo it doesn't mean you are going to see a 1 MOA group on the target. 1 + 1 don't equal 1.
<span style="font-weight: bold">Finally, you don't buy an AI because you are satisfied with 1 MOA accuracy.</span> </div></div>
We're just going to have to agree to disagree because you keep twisting my words, you did it in this post again. When did I EVER say I was satisfied with 1MOA? I said 1MOA is acceptable accuracy which it is, and that's what I've said all along. If you get trigger time and master the weapon system you will know you have it when you can hold the maximum accuracy that ammo is capable of whether it is 1/2 MOA or 1MOA. What part of this don't you understand? Now your playing math teacher saying 1+1 isn't 1, well no shit sherlock. If you hand a shooter a rifle and a bunch of ammo regardless of whether that ammo is 1/2MOA or 1MOA rifle so long as its consistent IF HE TRAINS TO THE POINT HE CAN HOLD THE MAXIMUM ACCURACY THAT AMMUNITION IS CAPABLE OF HE HAS MASTERED THE WEAPON. Once again, what part of this do you not understand?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tburkes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Okay great, we're all .5 moa shooters here. What he's trying to say is that if you can shoot .5 moa with your match ammo and then find some ammo that will shoot "only" 1 moa consistently in your rifle then you know you're still within your capabilities if you're shooting one inch groups. If you're shooting 1.5 moa then you'd have been shooting 1 moa with your match loads. You're still getting the same performance from you and your rifle if you're within the performance window of the cheaper, although consistent, ammo.
Is that what you're saying Redneck?
People are also talking about two different animals here. One group is laying prone, no time constraints and shooting groups. The other group is talking about match conditions.
I only wish I could hold 1 moa during match conditions cause I'd be winning matches. I have yet to see a single ".5 moa all day" shooter at a single match I've shot over the last several years. Not singling you out bm11 cause you included what you're parameters are. Some people act like they can do that all the time under any conditions, and it's not happening. </div></div>
This is exactly what I'm trying to say Tony! I'm glad theres somebody else out there that understands.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Tony, I agree to an extent. However you and I both know that during a match at any one point there may be stages where you better be able to deliver 1/2 MOA accuracy or you are out of the running. That doesn't mean you have to hold that across the board. Several of the large matches I have shot run offhand stages. You are not going to shoot 1 MOA offhand after cranking out pushups or a run. When you get to the KYL stage you better be able to do sub-MOA or you just "donated" your entry fee. </div></div>
Once again, your acting like I suggest people shoot go shoot a match with this ammo. Are you dense? If you can shoot a weapon to the max of the ammo's capabilities you can shoot a weapons the the max of the ammo's capabilities. There's no arguing with that it's simple common sense.
Re: Accuracy International Kool-aid
Well I guess I better stop shooting BALL and Tracer at Steel for shits and giggles then huh? I believe, see and understand both sides here on this. The fact still stands, if you are shooting live fire, you are having fun, getting trigger time, enjoying the weapon, becoming more comfortable with the trigger/recoil/ergo's and all the features. So does it need to be match ammo to shoot 2-4moa steel plates out to say 600m, I don't think so. If you are operating at the limits of your ammo as "redneckbmxer24" states, in this case 1 - 1.5moa, you know your absolute limits and respect what you will get from this practice. As many others have stated in the past, groups I don't agree with, but 1 target 1 bullet and sending it builds the confidence and muscle memory throughout the ranges. There are many great exercises out there which will improve your shooting skills much better and consistently as compared to groups of 3 or 5. IMHO
Well I guess I better stop shooting BALL and Tracer at Steel for shits and giggles then huh? I believe, see and understand both sides here on this. The fact still stands, if you are shooting live fire, you are having fun, getting trigger time, enjoying the weapon, becoming more comfortable with the trigger/recoil/ergo's and all the features. So does it need to be match ammo to shoot 2-4moa steel plates out to say 600m, I don't think so. If you are operating at the limits of your ammo as "redneckbmxer24" states, in this case 1 - 1.5moa, you know your absolute limits and respect what you will get from this practice. As many others have stated in the past, groups I don't agree with, but 1 target 1 bullet and sending it builds the confidence and muscle memory throughout the ranges. There are many great exercises out there which will improve your shooting skills much better and consistently as compared to groups of 3 or 5. IMHO
Re: Accuracy International Kool-aid
AMEN Stacey
As the saying goes Shoot more, Shoot more often.
It's good for business.
AMEN Stacey
As the saying goes Shoot more, Shoot more often.
It's good for business.
Re: Accuracy International Kool-aid
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: redneckbmxer24</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Once again, your acting like I suggest people shoot go shoot a match with this ammo. Are you dense? If you can shoot a weapon to the max of the ammo's capabilities you can shoot a weapons the the max of the ammo's capabilities. There's no arguing with that it's simple common sense. </div></div>
This exact quote demonstrates that you are not understanding what I am attempting to explain.
If you are shooting 1 MOA with 1 MOA capable ammo that does not necessarily mean you can shoot 1/4 MOA with 1/4 MOA capable ammo.
Thus going out and banging away with 1 MOA ammo will not demonstrate where you need to focus your efforts.
Now I would be lying if I said that I never go out and just bang the steel as hard and fast as I can. This is not precision shooting it's just making noise and feeling how fast and smooth the system can be. It is training of it's own sort.
However when I have spent a week dry firing and want a verification of what I have been practicing, then 1 MOA ammo is not going to tell me anything.
This is why I take a different opinion when you suggest to a guy that to get familiar with a system he needs to bang away with 1 MOA ammo (which is what started all of this).
If you want to become a better shooter, you need to shoot ammo that will challenge your skill. If you are a 5 MOA shooter, then 1 MOA is going to seem like match ammo. If you are better than a 1 MOA shooter, then 1 MOA ammo ain't going to cut it.
Now why EVERYONE on this forum isn't a 1 MOA shooter......that doesn't mean no one is. I have seen several of the guys here shoot a hell of a lot better than they let on in public.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: redneckbmxer24</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Once again, your acting like I suggest people shoot go shoot a match with this ammo. Are you dense? If you can shoot a weapon to the max of the ammo's capabilities you can shoot a weapons the the max of the ammo's capabilities. There's no arguing with that it's simple common sense. </div></div>
This exact quote demonstrates that you are not understanding what I am attempting to explain.
If you are shooting 1 MOA with 1 MOA capable ammo that does not necessarily mean you can shoot 1/4 MOA with 1/4 MOA capable ammo.
Thus going out and banging away with 1 MOA ammo will not demonstrate where you need to focus your efforts.
Now I would be lying if I said that I never go out and just bang the steel as hard and fast as I can. This is not precision shooting it's just making noise and feeling how fast and smooth the system can be. It is training of it's own sort.
However when I have spent a week dry firing and want a verification of what I have been practicing, then 1 MOA ammo is not going to tell me anything.
This is why I take a different opinion when you suggest to a guy that to get familiar with a system he needs to bang away with 1 MOA ammo (which is what started all of this).
If you want to become a better shooter, you need to shoot ammo that will challenge your skill. If you are a 5 MOA shooter, then 1 MOA is going to seem like match ammo. If you are better than a 1 MOA shooter, then 1 MOA ammo ain't going to cut it.
Now why EVERYONE on this forum isn't a 1 MOA shooter......that doesn't mean no one is. I have seen several of the guys here shoot a hell of a lot better than they let on in public.
Re: Accuracy International Kool-aid
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: redneckbmxer24</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Once again, your acting like I suggest people shoot go shoot a match with this ammo. Are you dense? If you can shoot a weapon to the max of the ammo's capabilities you can shoot a weapons the the max of the ammo's capabilities. There's no arguing with that it's simple common sense. </div></div>
This exact quote demonstrates that you are not understanding what I am attempting to explain.
If you are shooting 1 MOA with 1 MOA capable ammo that does not necessarily mean you can shoot 1/4 MOA with 1/4 MOA capable ammo.
Thus going out and banging away with 1 MOA ammo will not demonstrate where you need to focus your efforts.
Now I would be lying if I said that I never go out and just bang the steel as hard and fast as I can. This is not precision shooting it's just making noise and feeling how fast and smooth the system can be. It is training of it's own sort.
However when I have spent a week dry firing and want a verification of what I have been practicing, then 1 MOA ammo is not going to tell me anything.
This is why I take a different opinion when you suggest to a guy that to get familiar with a system he needs to bang away with 1 MOA ammo (which is what started all of this).
If you want to become a better shooter, you need to shoot ammo that will challenge your skill. If you are a 5 MOA shooter, then 1 MOA is going to seem like match ammo. If you are better than a 1 MOA shooter, then 1 MOA ammo ain't going to cut it.
Now why EVERYONE on this forum isn't a 1 MOA shooter......that doesn't mean no one is. I have seen several of the guys here shoot a hell of a lot better than they let on in public. </div></div>
You still don;t get it now matter how many different ways its said.
IF YOU CAN SHOOT A RIFLE TO ITS FULL POTENTIAL WITH 1MOA AMMO YOU CAN SHOOT THE SAME RIFLE TO ITS FULL POTENTIAL WITH 1/2MOA AMMO!!! What part of that is so damn hard for you to understand? If you have ammo that produces consistant 1MOA accuracy and you shoot and don't hold that 1MOA your obviously doing something wrong and should be able to see it just as if you were doing the same with 1/2MOA ammo. Turn your thinker on, this isn't that hard to understand.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you are shooting 1 MOA with 1 MOA capable ammo that does not necessarily mean you can shoot 1/4 MOA with 1/4 MOA capable ammo.</div></div>
BULLSHIT. If your shooting a rifle to it's maximum potential your shooting a rifle to its maximum potential regardless of the ammo so long as it's consistent.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: redneckbmxer24</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Once again, your acting like I suggest people shoot go shoot a match with this ammo. Are you dense? If you can shoot a weapon to the max of the ammo's capabilities you can shoot a weapons the the max of the ammo's capabilities. There's no arguing with that it's simple common sense. </div></div>
This exact quote demonstrates that you are not understanding what I am attempting to explain.
If you are shooting 1 MOA with 1 MOA capable ammo that does not necessarily mean you can shoot 1/4 MOA with 1/4 MOA capable ammo.
Thus going out and banging away with 1 MOA ammo will not demonstrate where you need to focus your efforts.
Now I would be lying if I said that I never go out and just bang the steel as hard and fast as I can. This is not precision shooting it's just making noise and feeling how fast and smooth the system can be. It is training of it's own sort.
However when I have spent a week dry firing and want a verification of what I have been practicing, then 1 MOA ammo is not going to tell me anything.
This is why I take a different opinion when you suggest to a guy that to get familiar with a system he needs to bang away with 1 MOA ammo (which is what started all of this).
If you want to become a better shooter, you need to shoot ammo that will challenge your skill. If you are a 5 MOA shooter, then 1 MOA is going to seem like match ammo. If you are better than a 1 MOA shooter, then 1 MOA ammo ain't going to cut it.
Now why EVERYONE on this forum isn't a 1 MOA shooter......that doesn't mean no one is. I have seen several of the guys here shoot a hell of a lot better than they let on in public. </div></div>
You still don;t get it now matter how many different ways its said.
IF YOU CAN SHOOT A RIFLE TO ITS FULL POTENTIAL WITH 1MOA AMMO YOU CAN SHOOT THE SAME RIFLE TO ITS FULL POTENTIAL WITH 1/2MOA AMMO!!! What part of that is so damn hard for you to understand? If you have ammo that produces consistant 1MOA accuracy and you shoot and don't hold that 1MOA your obviously doing something wrong and should be able to see it just as if you were doing the same with 1/2MOA ammo. Turn your thinker on, this isn't that hard to understand.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you are shooting 1 MOA with 1 MOA capable ammo that does not necessarily mean you can shoot 1/4 MOA with 1/4 MOA capable ammo.</div></div>
BULLSHIT. If your shooting a rifle to it's maximum potential your shooting a rifle to its maximum potential regardless of the ammo so long as it's consistent.
Re: Accuracy International Kool-aid
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: redneckbmxer24</div><div class="ubbcode-body">IF YOU CAN SHOOT A RIFLE TO ITS FULL POTENTIAL WITH 1MOA AMMO YOU CAN SHOOT THE SAME RIFLE TO ITS FULL POTENTIAL WITH 1/2MOA AMMO!!!</div></div>
Negative Ghostrider and if you want to come on over and bring your Port I will be more than happy to supply some Gold Metal Match and demonstrate to you what I am talking about.
Otherwise....LoneWolf, OUT.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: redneckbmxer24</div><div class="ubbcode-body">IF YOU CAN SHOOT A RIFLE TO ITS FULL POTENTIAL WITH 1MOA AMMO YOU CAN SHOOT THE SAME RIFLE TO ITS FULL POTENTIAL WITH 1/2MOA AMMO!!!</div></div>
Negative Ghostrider and if you want to come on over and bring your Port I will be more than happy to supply some Gold Metal Match and demonstrate to you what I am talking about.
Otherwise....LoneWolf, OUT.
Re: Accuracy International Kool-aid
This is a bit off topic. Apologies in advance if this is a stupid question, but I'm a newbie. I just bought an AE 308 and was wondering why the manual recommends that you pull and hold the trigger shoe while closing the bolt on an empty chamber. How does this prevent stress on the firing pin and bolt assembly? Will failing to hold the trigger while closing the bolt cause damage.
Thanks,
Rick
This is a bit off topic. Apologies in advance if this is a stupid question, but I'm a newbie. I just bought an AE 308 and was wondering why the manual recommends that you pull and hold the trigger shoe while closing the bolt on an empty chamber. How does this prevent stress on the firing pin and bolt assembly? Will failing to hold the trigger while closing the bolt cause damage.
Thanks,
Rick
Re: Accuracy International Kool-aid
Holding the trigger while lowering the bold handle lowers the striker gently.
Holding the trigger while lowering the bold handle lowers the striker gently.
Re: Accuracy International Kool-aid
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: redneckbmxer24</div><div class="ubbcode-body">IF YOU CAN SHOOT A RIFLE TO ITS FULL POTENTIAL WITH 1MOA AMMO YOU CAN SHOOT THE SAME RIFLE TO ITS FULL POTENTIAL WITH 1/2MOA AMMO!!!</div></div>
Negative Ghostrider and if you want to come on over and bring your Port I will be more than happy to supply some Gold Metal Match and demonstrate to you what I am talking about.
Otherwise....LoneWolf, OUT. </div></div>
I have plenty of FGMM myself and have shot enough of both to know that your talking out of your ass, but you can believe what you wish. You're dead wrong though and it only take a little bit of common sense to figure it out.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: redneckbmxer24</div><div class="ubbcode-body">IF YOU CAN SHOOT A RIFLE TO ITS FULL POTENTIAL WITH 1MOA AMMO YOU CAN SHOOT THE SAME RIFLE TO ITS FULL POTENTIAL WITH 1/2MOA AMMO!!!</div></div>
Negative Ghostrider and if you want to come on over and bring your Port I will be more than happy to supply some Gold Metal Match and demonstrate to you what I am talking about.
Otherwise....LoneWolf, OUT. </div></div>
I have plenty of FGMM myself and have shot enough of both to know that your talking out of your ass, but you can believe what you wish. You're dead wrong though and it only take a little bit of common sense to figure it out.
Re: Accuracy International Kool-aid
As an interesting side note, somewhat germane to this discussion, I'm going to PR1/2 at RO in April and this shows up on the kit list:
<span style="font-style: italic">308 rifle or other short action caliber capable of one minute of angle</span>
I guess if the system + ammo you're using consistently holds 1MOA, then that is the training parameter you work within. It'd be great if it could be less but that isn't realistic for everyone, budget constraints being what they are. Also, people who use 'precision' gas guns are used to working with a lesser degree of accuracy - again, just so long as the parameters are known, the training can still be effective.
As an interesting side note, somewhat germane to this discussion, I'm going to PR1/2 at RO in April and this shows up on the kit list:
<span style="font-style: italic">308 rifle or other short action caliber capable of one minute of angle</span>
I guess if the system + ammo you're using consistently holds 1MOA, then that is the training parameter you work within. It'd be great if it could be less but that isn't realistic for everyone, budget constraints being what they are. Also, people who use 'precision' gas guns are used to working with a lesser degree of accuracy - again, just so long as the parameters are known, the training can still be effective.
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