Accuracy International Vs Custom for 6.5 Creedmoor

[LRJammer]

Again, with a custom rifle you have a LCD - That's the Smith.

If a bad smith makes your rifle, regardless of what it is, AI or GAP or SAC, it's going to be bad.

So if I get a good custom and you get a bad AI, it is what it is.

That being said, as a hobby shooter, why in the hell do you need a rifle with 3 barrel swaps? -- And just because it's convenient, doesn't answer the question.

What the hell does need have to do with anything? You sound like a politician! Lovem or hatem, that is one of the good aspects about a Savage, the barrel and/or caliber can be changed out quickly and easily. One could also have different barrels for different applications. If in a shoot and move match where most of your targets are under 800 yards, a 20" barrel would be hard to beat, but if banging steel at significant range from primarily prone positions, a 26-28" barrel would give more velocity and better rifle stability.

 

[LRJammer]

Forgetting the OP original question. From my perspective, I wish I had just bit the bullet and purchased an AI when I got started. I have been through three different custom rifles. I would have saved one hell of a lot of money and had a better, more reliable rifle from the start.

 

[InkedIan]

Forgetting the OP original question. From my perspective, I wish I had just bit the bullet and purchased an AI when I got started. I have been through three different custom rifles. I would have saved one hell of a lot of money and had a better, more reliable rifle from the start.

Just curious, who built your unreliable and inaccurate custom rifles? So we know who to avoid....

 

[LRJammer]

Just curious, who built your unreliable and inaccurate custom rifles? So we know who to avoid....

Sigh. It is obvious that some cannot read or comprehend. Done.

 

[InkedIan]

Sigh. It is obvious that some cannot read or comprehend. Done.

It's a legitimate question.... You said after 3 customs you said you would have had a better more reliable rifle if you bought an AI... I'm just wondering who built your rifles.

 

[GUNENTHUSIAST]

After owning, shooting for fun, and competing with both customs and a an AIAW in my experience there is no caparison. I will admit that all the customs I have owned and shot were worked over Rem 700 actions and not high end actions like Surgeon or Templer ect...

Another point I would make is the AI AE and AI AW are entirely different rifles. I have been seeing nice used AWs popping up for sale in the mid 4k range and would say this is the best way to go hands down!

I would recommend to anyone with a 4-5k budget to get an AIAW and get the best there is from the get go. You will save all the money on customs I wish I would have many times over. I have owned so many guns and the AIAW is the gun that I am the most impressed with and passionate about because it always works perfect! No exceptions! I am most of the way through the life of my second barrel on my AW and have not had one feeding issue EVER! The action runs like a manual shifter in a Porsche! Solid, smooth, flawless. I have watched countless competitors jam up their rifles in matches and I just think to myself how in love I am with my AI every time!

Another point to consider is AIs are very highly regarded and in high demand so expect them to hold their value better.

Good Luck!

 

[Kubitza123]

Personally I never cared for AI's tanks . It aint like half the people on this site are going to fight in a war . Not like most need a rifle that can be frozen and work etc. Custom , atleast you can get stock, trigger etc you want. Fit and feel if a rifle means alot to me. If AI fits you great it's prob a great choice .

 

[10fp]

The bolt lift on a AI is no stiffer than a 90 degree action. Don't make up crap.

yes it is sugarcakes.

 

[280nosler]

I think your custom gun can be had for less than you think. My build was as follows:
Bighorn AW Action $1375
Bartlein heavy Palma Barrel $365
Accuracy International AICS - $725
Viperskins Stock Sides - $75
2x AI AW mags - $144
AICS Atlas Spigot - $68
Timney Trigger (SS 1.5#) $125
Smith Work - $374

Total $3,251

BTW - the wait on a JEA stock (fully loaded presage's) are 9-10 months, and this was just quoted to my on the 18th of December.

Now my 6.5x47 is a pretty good shooter, and I don't own a AI, but I have only had 1 issue with the mag release on my Bighorn, and that was because there was a mag out of spec.

BTW - Dave Tooley is local to me and does fine work, which is one of the reasons I originally considered an AI. If I could have gotten an AI at the $3200 price range, I probably would have gone that route, but I was on a waiting list for my action since April (received in August), so I will live with it.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

yes it is sugarcakes.

Sorry but that's bullshit. I have both and the AI is not heavier.

 

[10fp]

Sorry but that's bullshit. I have both and the AI is not heavier.

do you think your the only one with AI? I have "only" 6 and another 8 or so worked over 700/clones. Thats the nature of the beast, 60" needs more force. I am not saying its bad i MUCH prefer AI action to 700 but some people like the lighter/longer bolt throw on worked over 700's.

 

[USMC_03XX]

There is a high likelihood that a good smith can tune a 700/clone so that it can produce greater accuracy than an AI, but there is no way to tune an 700/clone to give it the same bombproof, trust my life to it reliability in adverse conditions as an AI.

In short;
Accuracy - 700>=AI
Reilability AI>700 (by about a billion fucking miles)

 

[kthomas]

So you have a custom R700 with a soldered on bolt handle, a weak extractor, and a weak bolt release? And you're telling me it's as reliable as a rifle with a solid handle, a M16 type extractor, and a side bolt release.... RIGHT.

There's a lot of smiths that build R700's with benchrest accuracy, but that doesn't mean it's tough nor reliable.

You should let those 600+ alphabet agencies that use TacOps rifles know that they are using unreliable rifles, I'm sure they would appreciate the heads up!

No doubt that AI's are built like a tank, but I don't think you can make an argument that TacOps rifles aren't reliable. TacOps rifles are built for agencies, and the use and abuse that goes along with it. To my knowledge, the majority of Mike's rifles go to agencies, and a handful go to us civilians.

Is one more reliable than the other (TacOps vs AI)? I've never seen any empirical evidence to suggest one way or the other.

 

[Brasscow]

I've yet to see you make an intelligent statement so, I guess we're even.

It doesn't matter if you've seen one or not. Saying they don't exist is a fabrication of reality. It's a lie. There are always anomalies, always.

The most important factor with any gun is the smith.

If AI employs a bad smith, you get a bad rifle.

If I employ a bad smith, I get a bad rifle.

If I choose a smith from Tacticalrifles.net, there's a 99% chance that rifle will be a piece of shit.

If I get a GAP from George, there's a 100% chance my rifle will shoot THE EXACT SAME AS YOUR AI.

Does that make one or the other better? Absolutely not. What it does is it changed the onus from the manufacturer to the smith.

Will AI have less chance of failure? Absolutely.

I'm moving on, you clearly don't have a grasp on reality...I will be buying an AT but, I will still grab my 300wm 99% of the time because my custom rifle has proven itself well beyond that AT.

My GAP crusader was not as accurate as any of my AIs and I broke an extractor on it in the first 200rds doing nothing out of the ordinary. The difference was large and indisputable. Those are facts, absolutely not open for discussion.

 

[USMC_03XX]

600+ 'Alphabet Agencies'??? - I can only think of a handful of non LEO real 'Alphabet Agencies' but maybe things have changed since I left AD 6 months ago...

I would bet my life savings we could grab a off the shelf AW and a random selected TACOPS SA rifle and the TACOPS will be rendered shot out/worn out/flat broke before the AI. We could even do this in the blowing moon dust of a beautiful middle eastern country to add a similiar environment that '600 + alphabet agencies' operate in.

This really isnt even a debate...

 

[BoilerUP]

I don't think anybody questions the ruggedness and reliability of an Accuracy International, designed with the battlefield in mind.

But how many civilian AI owners (or domestic LE agencies) will be using their rifles in the blowing moon dust of a beautiful middle eastern country? Who not in the shit (or even those in it) runs their weapons for years on end without any maintenance whatsoever?

The weak points of a 700 action compared to an AI have been identified, and they are real. But it seems like the 700 is being portrayed as an unreliable rifle that breaks all the time, and reality is that simply isn't the case (especially if its been worked by a quality, competent shop).

Sometimes there's a need for a one ton dually when a half ton will do; other times somebody will want the dually when all they need is a half ton and hey, more power to them. But its not like the half ton is a piece of shit because it can't carry the weight and is prone to failure if it tries - IT WASNT DESIGNED TO.

 

[kthomas]

600+ 'Alphabet Agencies'??? - I can only think of a handful of non LEO real 'Alphabet Agencies' but maybe things have changed since I left AD 6 months ago...

I would bet my life savings we could grab a off the shelf AW and a random selected TACOPS SA rifle and the TACOPS will be rendered shot out/worn out/flat broke before the AI. We could even do this in the blowing moon dust of a beautiful middle eastern country to add a similiar environment that '600 + alphabet agencies' operate in.

This really isnt even a debate...

I read it was 600+ somewhere on this site, it may have been from Aries64...

But until someone grabs a TacOps and an AI and performs that test, all it is is conjecture.

This is all besides the point. For 99.5% of users on this site, a rifle built by a reputable smith on this site will be reliable enough for their needs. Is the AI a tank and a has a proven track record? Hell yeah it does. Do they make quality firearms? You bet your ass they do. But an AI may or may not be the best platform for them - this argument is downright silly. I'm not going to argue over conjecture - that's stupid.

I personally have a stiffy over the new AI AX308MC, if I had a lot more money then I currently have now I would pick one up in a heartbeat.

 

[Eagle1899]

Without a doubt AI. I have custom rifles from big name builders. They are all extremely accurate. But they just don't compare to my AX. I have tried to get mine to choke, it doesn't. Cheap ammo, crap reloads, highend factory, and tuned reloads they all shoot at least good. Many of them shoot great to exceptional.

The adaptabilty of an AI is a huge plus. I try to share it with everyone I can. Everyone that shoots it from novice to fudd to seasoned shooters love it. What really seals the deal is they all shoot great groups with it the first time behind it. They just plain work.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

I read it was 600+ somewhere on this site, it may have been from Aries64...

But until someone grabs a TacOps and an AI and performs that test, all it is is conjecture.

Another person that took BS and ran with it. 600 alphabet agencies because you read it on here... Lol.


Nobody has to run the rifles head to head, a little bit of common sense is all you need to realize which one is more reliable. The Remington 700 action has 3 major weak points. 1. The shitty extractor, 2. The bolt handle that's soldered on (not even welded) and full of voids, and 3. The bolt release. These weak points are weak, not just a little sub par.

Now please, show me one weak point on the AI action. You can't.

It doesn't make a difference what some government agencies use, a lot of them also use factory R700's. Does that make them uber reliable too because some agency uses them? Fuck no.

 

[TorF]

The quick barrel change feature is a gamechanger in competition shooting. This feature means that a lot more shooters can up their roundcount to 15 - 20000 rounds every year without sending the rifle to a gunsmith for a new barrel 3 or 4 times. This happened 20 years ago in Scandinavia when the Sauer SSG3000/STR became the new DCM-matchrifle. The average Joe, without any technical knowlege, can now support his own rifle and shoot 15000 rounds and only think about shooting. Every average Joe shooter now have a .4moa factory rifle with factory ammo. The winners of competitions will be found among the group of shooters who shoot more than 15000 rounds every year. With a commonly available quality QC barrel rifle, like AI or SSG3000, this group will be larger and you will see fewer and fewer winners with other equipment. Why SIG Sauer didn't push this concept 15 years ago in the US by sponsoring some top shooters is beond me. They could have owned the market.

Fixed barreled matchrifles are now as old fashioned as fixed barreled MG's were when Germany introduced the MG34 and 42 in WW2. A Sako TRG might be a "better" rifle than the SSG3000 but the Sako is not competitive against the Sauer in a large group of average Joe shooters willing to have a lot of triggertime.

 

[rrflyer]

You've been able to switch barrel savages and Remington's for a long time.

Doesn't really change anything..... Especially when you could have two or three barreled actions built or 4 or more barrels chambered and waiting for your 700.

 

[rrflyer]

Now please, show me one weak point on the AI action. You can't.

The system weighs a ton and is married to a chassis that many people find uncomfortable and cumbersome.

I do like the 3 pos safety, 2 stage trigger, and 60 bolt throw.

 

[Guy Montag]

Nobody has to run the rifles head to head, a little bit of common sense is all you need to realize which one is more reliable.

"common sense" would dictate possession of the actual facts and data before attempting to pass conjecture off as fact.

Please check your data, and let me know when my TacOps will start going tits up.

Thousands of rounds through it, and somehow it still outperforms my AX, but then again I don't hunt zombie vampires in moon dust conditions.

 

[rrflyer]

............. but then again I don't hunt zombie vampires in moon dust conditions.

Poser

 

[InkedIan]

For people who don't shoot in the most extreme conditions most anything can be made to shoot reliably and accurately....

This is from the PRS 2013. I believe most of these guys can afford to shoot what they want, but on the flip side probably sell the stuff they shoot.... I find it kinda funny there was as many savages used in 2012 as AI in 2013, but then savage dropped off in '13...

 

[brianf]

Is this even debatable? There's some good customs and quality smiths but AI's just get it done. Bottom line, if the lights go out, aliens invade, or zombies attack; I'm grabbing the AI over any custom or worked over factory action.

the funny part about that is if the SHTF i would want a rem 700 clone. if something goes wrong with an AI good luck finding a bolt, pin or trigger, with a 700 clone 1 in 5 houses along with every gun store will have something you can swap out.

that being said, AI's sure are nice and as accurate as i can shoot. comes down to what you really want out of it, if you feel more comfortable with picking out every little part or you want the factory to have already figured it out. use a real gunsmith not some guy with a wobbly lathe, get ready to pay a few bucks more and don't look back. most guys (not putting anybody down at all, and not propping myself up) use their high price rifles like fine china, does one bad ejection in 1000 (if it happens) really matter at a bench at some range when you are loading one at a time anyway?

 

[Mirnyx]

the funny part about that is if the SHTF i would want a rem 700 clone. if something goes wrong with an AI good luck finding a bolt, pin or trigger, with a 700 clone 1 in 5 houses along with every gun store will have something you can swap out.

If your rig goes down in a SHTF scenario you're probably SOL as scavenging parts is unrealistic especially if you need a bolt as mentioned above. If my only option was a 700 or a 700 clone in a SHTF scenario I'd be happy as hell but if I can pick between those and any AI, the AI gets the nod.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

I wish I could live in fairytale land. Do you guys have unicorns there?

 

[brianf]

just having some fun, i am not really planning on a uprising or aliens...unlike some people i have met over the years. is fairytale land in response to my belief that inside the US border spare parts for rem 700 are more common than spares for a AI, or is it in response to that most people who use their rifles for a range day once a month in a non life threatening situation can be slightly less worried about a partial ejection in a bolt gun. if that becomes the deciding factor in a purchase.

 

[jashmore1234]

As long as the umpa lumpa's are swim suit models who reload, make whiskey and bring sandwiches, I'm down with fairytale land.

 

[Mirnyx]

It sure appears this thread has experienced a shift from customs are equally reliable to saying AI is more reliable but only under the most extreme conditions.

On another note; I'd love to see a documented showdown between any AI model and the various customs. If someone in the Twin Cities area wants to contribute a custom, I'll bring an AI to the party. Hide members can advise on testing procedures and we'll see which one gives up the ghost. Right now would be perfect for testing arctic like conditions.

 

[USMC_03XX]

Man we should hook up some sponsors (specifically ammo...) and do just that.

 

[Chiller]

Understand that AI is designed and primarily marketed to the Mil/LEO world. Their interest is “real world” two way range accuracy and my understanding is they promise 1MOA or better. I did own AI, SAKO, GAP, Surgeon, etc (before they were tragically lost in a boating accident). They are all built for their own specific needs.

That being said…..when the zombie apocalypse happens…..my AI (once I pull it from the bottom of Lake Mead)

 

[MikeInUtah]

I guess I am just a barbarian for enjoying my factory remys when I should be figuring how to get me an AI so my weekend recreational shooting can include barrel changes in the field, improved extraction resiliency, mounts for my inexistent night sight and quick change mags.

 

[brianf]

funny

 

[Mirnyx]

I guess I am just a barbarian for enjoying my factory remys when I should be figuring how to get me an AI so my weekend recreational shooting can include barrel changes in the field, improved extraction resiliency, mounts for my inexistent night sight and quick change mags.

I don't understand your comment. The OP specifically asked about AI vs. custom which sparked the reliability debate. If you happen to shoot factory rifles and don't require advanced features, good on you but that's not what the conversation is about.

 

[Masked]

Understand that AI is designed and primarily marketed to the Mil/LEO world. Their interest is “real world” two way range accuracy and my understanding is they promise 1MOA or better. I did own AI, SAKO, GAP, Surgeon, etc (before they were tragically lost in a boating accident). They are all built for their own specific needs.

That being said…..when the zombie apocalypse happens…..my AI (once I pull it from the bottom of Lake Mead)

Hey now, I think it's pretty obvious that the M24A1/2/3 just aren't as good as the AI...You know, considering a decorated history on the Rem 700 action...They're just total shit compared to that AI AT.

 

[brianf]

sorry Sgposin, you asked a question and i might have had a hand in turning it into a AI vs other gun thread, didn't mean to if i was the catalyst. make sure you keep us informed of your decision.

 

[strike33]

The M24 is not as good as the AI. The Remington was not designed for the extremes of Military service. It was a sporting rifle that was "outfitted" to better suit the need for a precision rifle. I love the M24 along with its history, but the AI was purpose built for the role.
To lump all the "clones" in with the factory 700 action is not a fair comparison. The fact that they they share a foot print and trigger assembly doesn't make them the same. These custom actions are designed for different purposes some with tighter tolerance and less clearance for accuracy while others are a little looser for increased reliability.
The action that YOU chose depends are what YOUR intended purpose is.
Although I will agree that the caliber switching with the latest generation of high end factory guns is a huge plus. Would I love an AI, yes sir but I do find some joy in piecing together a build for exactly what I want and what I feel I need

 

[Jhnmdahl]

It sure appears this thread has experienced a shift from customs are equally reliable to saying AI is more reliable but only under the most extreme conditions.

On another note; I'd love to see a documented showdown between any AI model and the various customs. If someone in the Twin Cities area wants to contribute a custom, I'll bring an AI to the party. Hide members can advise on testing procedures and we'll see which one gives up the ghost. Right now would be perfect for testing arctic like conditions.

I think that's the real question - neither one would likely fail, and you'd be sitting there for years shooting under normal range conditions. If you need that last .1% reliability, or ability to shoot under sandy/frozen/whatever conditions, the AI makes sense. For others (line me), it's more fun to construct a rifle that ends up being more "mine" than an off-the-shelf AI.

John

 

[Rthur]

I'll just add this. AI makes great rifles as well as many gunsmiths. I'm willing to bet either one isn't what is holding back at least 95% of the shooters.


R

 

[Asperly Aimless]

Pick your poison, man. Both rifles will give you pride of ownership and accuracy. Whichever fits you better would be what would get the nod from me. You're not taking either to a combat environment, and both will be just fine on the range, in the prairie dog fields, on a hunt etc.

If the AI didn't have the sweet barrel system, then it really wouldn't even be in the running for me. The barrel system is what makes it get the nod from me. When a custom manufacturer can build a rifle with that swap system, then I'm in (depending on price). People say it's not a big deal, but it is to some. When I go to the the dog towns I can smoke a .243 barrel in a week...easily. That's why I have several precut and chambered .243 winchester barrels at my house. This way there is no down time waiting for a new barrel to be spun up. However; I still need my vice and wrench to change barrels, so if one goes tits up in the Pdog town then I have to swap to my other .243 and rebarrel the burnt .243 at the cabin. I have to have 2 rifles with me at a minimum. With the AI all I need is one rifle. Swap barrels in minute, and continue to crush pdogs. So easy barrel swaps, plus only need one rifle=a win over a custom.

As for reliability, I have never had any of my Winchester pre64 or FN SPR actions go down yet, nor do I expect them to.

 

[Sgposin]

sorry Sgposin, you asked a question and i might have had a hand in turning it into a AI vs other gun thread, didn't mean to if i was the catalyst. make sure you keep us informed of your decision.

It's been entertaining to say the least! I really wasn't looking for what's better AI or Custom. And of course there are so many variables that you could never really get a valid answer. People are comparing one specific firearm to 1,000,000 possible configurations of a custom rife (and that’s leaving out the human element (Smith). The bottom line is I was comparing the specific action, barrel, stock, trigger of the custom to the AI AT. I wasn’t really looking to hear which is better; I know they are both amazing. I was really looking for which way everyone would go if it were their build/buy. I do have a great custom as stated, so I figure why not try something different. So that’s what I will do be ordering an AT. Not because it’s better, more accurate, or more reliable. But because it’s something different than what I have and it’s very cool. Again I feel very lucky to have this issue, as both options in my opinion are amazing. Thanks for all the input!

Steve

 

[Sgposin]

I'll just add this. AI makes great rifles as well as many gunsmiths. I'm willing to bet either one isn't what is holding back at least 95% of the shooters.


R

This will most certainly be what holds me back...

EDIT:My shooting that is.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

I would like to be enlightened... As far as worked R700's, how does trying the action, threading a custom barrel on, and bedding it in a aftermarket stock make it more reliable. I really would like to know how this improves the system as far as reliability is concerned.

 

[DepthAfield]

Hey guys getting ready to start my next build. I've always loved Accuracy International, but never owned one. I was looking at the AE Folder in 6.5 Creedmoor. Euro Optics has it for 4030.00. That got me thinking... How much would it cost to do a full custom. Here is what I came up with:

Defiance Deviant SA- 1300
J. Allen Stock loaded- 1680
Krieger Barrel- 400
Timney- 130
Smith work (Cerakote, threaded, barrel work etc.)- 750

Total 4260.00

That being said I will have a 7 month wait for the Action vs getting the AE right now. That seems to be the only real negative for the custom build. What do you guys think? What would you do?

Aren't the JEA-700s still virtually unobtanium? The action will be gathering dust on your bench long before your JAE is even a twinkle in the eye of the creator.

 

[Sgposin]

Aren't the JEA-700s still virtually unobtanium? The action will be gathering dust on your bench long before your JAE is even a twinkle in the eye of the creator.

They do take some time. Another reason I am doing the AT. Hate the wait!

 

[DepthAfield]

Just browsed the rest of the thread. Holy grabass and dickwaving.

 

[DepthAfield]

Last time I contacted Lisa, they had 12+ month lead times. Pretty happy with my settled-for AICS.

 

[brianf]

as for chassis, i just received a ashbury saber-forsst trg-42 mod 1 (all the goodies) and let me tell you it is fantastic. not sure if it is worth 2x a AICS but tames recoil on my 338 lapua to half what the green factory stock was. so comfortable i can fall asleep on it. still love my AICS's but, my next build or sale might be another forsst