Accuracy needed for 22 LR Matches

[MarkCZ]

My back ground is in long range centerfire benchrest. 600yds and 1000yds. You need every bit of accuracy you can get for benchrest. You can't put enough money into your equipment. I have been shooting long range rimfire steel matches for a few years. I know a lot of guys shooting rimfire benchrest, their gun is on par with my centerfire equipment. I have a Kidd Supergrade, and a CZ 455 Varmint, both will run 0.5 MOA at 100yds. How much money will it take to do better? Can I see an improvement in match conditions. I don't think anyone can take benchrest accuracy to a match. Is it worth the money to see a 0.1" or 0.2"

Mark

 

[Mile High Shooting]

If your rifle(s) will shoot consistant .5 MOA, and you can hold that in field conditions, You'll win every match you enter.

Last match we were at had 1 MOA Wind chimes, steel 1" wide, 12" approx long, at 211 yds +/-. Center one was 2 pts, one on each side of it was 1 pt. 0 points Left and right of that.

KYL was down to 1/4" @ 45 yds +/-

Movers, positional, standing, kneeling, sitting, tripod type stages

No one cleaned the course.

It's not the hardware, it's the software behind the buttstock....

You don't need 1/4 MOA to win a match. Most matches we have seen, if you can hold 1 MOA and read the wind, and be steady and consistent in positional, You'll finish in the top spots.

With a Vudoo, we were hitting 18" steel at 520 in the wind. And had great big smiles on our faces.

Doubt a .1 or .2 stick would do any better

Dave

 

[Tom Bal4]

I have a friend who is just getting into lr rimfire matches with his new vudoo rifle and says it is much harder with a 22 than centerfire and may sadly give up on the lr rim fire shoots and go back to center fire only, I hope I can maybe get a good deal on his vudoo rifle.

 

[Mile High Shooting]

.22 matches are a ton of fun. Cheap, short range, and when you practice, you don't have to hump steel near as far.

The wind is the great equalizer.

Vudoo's are incredible.

The large format magazine is a huge advantage in stages that require reloading

The Vudoo's kill it in the accuacy dept also.

Hope he stays in, or at the very least, you get a good deal

 

[steve123]

IMO, no.

It's the wind that gets you, or dope being slightly off, or not building a steady enough position, as well as those standing, kneeling, sitting, prone, and support side stuff. There is the time factor too. Not including making any mental mistakes!

It was funny last weekend. One 22 stage was running back and forth to a barrel 20 feet back where 7 rounds were staged in a dogfood dish. You could only put one shot in the mag at a time with the first round in the mag with bolt open at start. I thought I was fast and got 6/6 with 10 seconds left. A friend as old as I am went so fast he cleaned the stage, all 8 shots, he beat all the young guys. Guess how many points I needed to tie him for first out of all 10 stages, yes just two more points. I won the tie breaker stage so I just needed those two points.

This isn't BR, that .1" better accuracy is "way" lost in the dynamics of tactical 22!!!

 

[MarkCZ]

If your rifle(s) will shoot consistant .5 MOA, and you can hold that in field conditions, You'll win every match you enter.

Dave,
No I can't hold that in field condition. That is what I was asking, how much would a Vudoo or other custom add in field conditions? I think it would be up to the shooter skills, not the gun.

Mark

 

[Hoser]

If your rifle(s) will shoot consistant .5 MOA, and you can hold that in field conditions, You'll win every match you enter.

Last match we were at had 1 MOA Wind chimes, steel 1" wide, 12" approx long, at 211 yds +/-. Center one was 2 pts, one on each side of it was 1 pt. 0 points Left and right of that.

KYL was down to 1/4" @ 45 yds +/-

Movers, positional, standing, kneeling, sitting, tripod type stages

No one cleaned the course.

It's not the hardware, it's the software behind the buttstock....

You don't need 1/4 MOA to win a match. Most matches we have seen, if you can hold 1 MOA and read the wind, and be steady and consistent in positional, You'll finish in the top spots.

With a Vudoo, we were hitting 18" steel at 520 in the wind. And had great big smiles on our faces.

Doubt a .1 or .2 stick would do any better

Dave

I shot this match with my Vudoo which will hold 1/2 - 3/4 MOA accuracy at 100 yards. Wind reading was the key to this match. A 200 yard rimfire match is like taking a 308 to a 800-900 yard match.

The guy that took second place was shooting a Lilja barreled 40X Elrod repeater with lot tested ammo that will shoot documented 60 round groups around 1/4 - 3/8 at 50 meters on electronic targets at the US Olympic Training Center.

Your 455 or 10-22 will be fine, for now. Soon you will want a Vudoo.

 

[Mile High Shooting]

Vudoo has the large mags. Try stuffing in a mag change with a CZ and see how fast you can screw it up under pressure and time constraints. Don't ask how I know.

The Vudoo's just plain shoot. Once the youngest is out of college, I'll have one at the match's.

We've sold a bunch, tested a bunch, and they are reliable and shoot well.

But again, its the nut behind the rifle.

Get out their and try a match with your rifle. Get decent glass that focuses down to 25. Repeatable turrets. You don't need a S&B or 7-35 to win, but they sure don't hold you back.... Good glass can be transferred from rifle to rifle. Buy once, cry once. That way you'll have good glass when you go for that Vudoo!

Find ammo that groups well at 100, 150, 200 etc

Some ammo that runs at 100 opens up alot at 200 and above. Get out early in the am to run your practice. Especially when ammo testing. Thermals, wind, etc make it tough to compare loads.

Last match was 45-211 yds

Some matches are well over 300

Hits are hits.

Wind plays games, especially with 22's

 

[MarkCZ]

IMO, no.

This isn't BR, that .1" better accuracy is "way" lost in the dynamics of tactical 22!!!

That is what I am asking. Is it worth $3000+ for a Vudoo, when it is up to the shooter to make the hits.
Mark

 

[Mile High Shooting]

Dont forget the Cranial Infarctions!

Last match I didn't practice enough with the scope on the rifle. Didn't have a zero stop. So when we got to the KYL, I had the CI and missed turning the elev turret by 5 mils. Shot right over the top on the first target and I was done. Missed winning or tying the match by zeroing the KYL stage. And yes, if I would have been thinking, could have beat Hoser.

Hoser didn't have a brain fart...

I did

 

[Mile High Shooting]

Alot of folks with Vudoo make a clone of their PRL/PRS rifle

So, yes it COULD be.

If your used to training with 1 "system", you may not have the CI that I did...

 

[MarkCZ]

I shot this match with my Vudoo which will hold 1/2 - 3/4 MOA accuracy at 100 yards. Wind reading was the key to this match. A 200 yard rimfire match is like taking a 308 to a 800-900 yard match.

The guy that took second place was shooting a Lilja barreled 40X Elrod repeater with lot tested ammo that will shoot documented 60 round groups around 1/4 - 3/8 at 50 meters on electronic targets at the US Olympic Training Center.

Your 455 or 10-22 will be fine, for now. Soon you will want a Vudoo.

Yes, I want one now. Just can't cough up that much money. I have win 200yds matches with the Kidd and CZ. I will keep then for now.
Mark

 

[quickdraw]

That is what I am asking. Is it worth $3000+ for a Vudoo, when it is up to the shooter to make the hits.
Mark

Like the old saying about building on a foundation of sand. This is similar and even a bit more important. During your path to learning and getting better at accomplishing your goal of becoming an accomplished match competitor how are you going to judge your success when you don't know if a miss was you or your shooting platform (gun/ammo)? How much time, effort and money is wasted on trying to improve on a weak foundation (rifle/ammo)?

For me after more than 18 months of trying to build a platform with consistency I finally moved up to a very consistent rifle. In the world of competitive 22lr it is truly about consistency. When 1 or 2 rounds per mag have a mind of their own that was unacceptable to me. After $100 mod here and $200 mod there, then a brick of this ammo and a brick of that I finally decided that enough was enough. I also was shooting a Kidd Rifle, bought and sold an RPRr, modded another 10/22. What you currently own will probably serve you well to get started and get an education in the sport. After that it is a matter of what your expectations are and if your current tools will get you there.

 

[Tx_Aggie]

That is what I am asking. Is it worth $3000+ for a Vudoo, when it is up to the shooter to make the hits.
Mark

IMO as a beginner you would probably be better served with a nicely set up CZ455, good quality optic, and then spending the remaining cash finding a lot of quality ammo that shoots well in your rifle and buying that specific lot by the case (5000 rds, typically $600-1500 worth).

In my (admittedly limited compared to some here) experience, as long as you're shooting a match grade rifle, proper ammo selection makes more of a difference than what rifle you choose.

And as everyone above as said, time spent learning to dope the wind and build stable shooting positions is hugely important. That requires a supply of ammo that you know is consistently accurate.

 

[steve123]

That is what I am asking. Is it worth $3000+ for a Vudoo, when it is up to the shooter to make the hits.
Mark

Every match is different.

The match I referred to earlier was a Vudoo sponsored match. In this match some of the time constraints were tight and half of the points were made inside 100Y on 2-ish moa steel. The guy that won was shooting a fixed up 10-22. I was shooting a 1827 Fortner Biathlon. His dope wasn't right and the mount on my rifle isn't strong enough to hold my heavy scope to the same place all the time so I have annoying POI shifts. This time it was so stupid(the shifts) that I couldn't hold center of steel, barring windage, the entire match. But look where we ended up in the standings.

Darndest thing that mount, sometimes there's no POI shifts, then the next match getting consistent POI is like herding cats. I've had enough, time to have a custom mount made. Or get a 1727 which is designed to hold a scope normally.

I have a mostly factory Ruger 10-22 race rifle with JARD trigger. I haven't shot a 22 match with it yet but I'll try it next month. It doesn't shoot but 1.3-4 MOA so that will be a interesting experiment.

 

[quickdraw]

. I have a Kidd Supergrade, and a CZ 455 Varmint, both will run 0.5 MOA at 100yds.
Mark

If you can do this consistently then I'd say you are set. Go have fun

 

[Victor Co Heather]

A Kidd tuned with a Titan 1022 stock in the right hands will win it every time.

 

[300ATT]

... "in the right hands" ... that is the operative statement ...

Any .22 that is capable holding 1/2 MOA out at distance (beyond 100 yards) has more than enough precision to win any tactical .22LR match. Any .22 that can hold 1 MOA at distance will be competitive and can win.

The Vudoo isn’t anymore accurate than my Kimber. It doesn’t shoot higher bc bullets faster. The Kimber might have an advantage in standing offhand stages (light weight, less fatigue) but the Vudoo has a huge advantage in the type of glass that is on top, stability off a bipod and the Vudoo also has an advantage in ergonomics (e.g. 10- round mags, mag changes, bolt manipulation and training for centerfire steel matches).

While it doesn’t hurt to have a .22 that can shoot 0.1” groups at 100 yards; what hurts is getting beat by a guy with an off-the-shelf CZ that shoots 3/4”-1" at 100 yards who can read the wind, build stable shooting positions on the fly off of barrels, boxes, shooting sticks while engaging targets at various distances in 60-120 seconds.

 

[300ATT]

I will also say the a heavier .22 will be more forgiving of lapses in shooting fundamentals over a lighter rifle in a tactical style match.

Bottom line These .22 steel matches are challenging and a lot of fun.

 

[300ATT]

Not to go too post crazy but the following is true story from my early days of long-range shooting that highlights what MileHigh Dave had to say in post #2.

I started shooting NRA Palma matches about 25 years ago: .308, iron sights, no bi-pod, just a shooting jacket and a sling - 15 shots each at 800, 900 and 1,000 yards. One of the local Palma shooters who is a NRA High Master was out at Colorado Rifle club practicing the 1,000 yard stage. He was told that the range was scheduled for a 1,000 yard benchrest match that day so he would have to pack up and leave. He figured: "I drove two hours to get here so what the hell..." and asked if he could shoot the match. They looked at him incredulously said, "Sure we'll take your $50.00." He mounted a 16x Leupold MK 4 on top of his .308 palma rifle, laid down prone and with his shooting jacket and sling won the match against guys that had spent $5,000+ on 40-50 lbs. .338-378 1,000-yard bench guns.

They were pissed.

They told him if he ever came back he would have to lay down on top of a bench because it was a "benchrest" match.

Moral of the story: "Marksmanship and wind are the great equalizers ... "

 

[accurate obsession]

"Marksmanship and wind are the great equalizers ... "

Amen to that, see it all the time, firing lines with custom this, special that, big shot gunsmith job here and there all the gear is basically equal. The great shooters rise from their focus and expertise at reading conditions.