accuracy over velocity??

[pelago]

shoot a 1903A4 and a 1903 usmc 1941, along with some other 1903 actions with a variety of barrels,

looking at the 178g a max, the 168 grain a max (up to 600 yard only) and the 175 berger bc and 175 berger vld and smk 175

got some good velocities on the 175 berger, but is there a point where accuracy falls off when vel increases? in other words indirectly proportional?

 

[Joop]

Re: accuracy over velocity??

There are so many variables in rifles, barrels, bullets, powders(not to mention the shooter), etc., etc. that you probably won't know for sure until you try it. I don't think there's any golden rule with this. Others can give you their experiences and you're likely to have similar results, but until you go out and shoot the distances you're concerned about, with the rifles and loads that you're working with, it's really anybody's guess.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: accuracy over velocity??

I'll take accuracy over velocity every day of the week.

Velocity is just a math problem, your dope is your dope, who cares if you can push a bullet to 2900fps if the accuracy is not great. A more accurate load 100fps less at 2800fps is much more desirable to me. <span style="font-style: italic">(numbers just an example)</span>

 

[VKC]

Re: accuracy over velocity??

It depends on barrel harmonics, and different rifles have different velocity nodes where accuracy or more correctly precision improves. In other words you get more consistency and repeatability.

 

[TOP PREDATOR]

Re: accuracy over velocity??

most of my most accurate loads (either in a vintage or modern arm) are of a lower velocity.

doesn't matter if you miss something quickly.

but back on topic, some rifle of the same make and model shoot differently than others, particularly if of a vintage variety. some of the results may be dramitic, some not barely noticeable. like above, you have to give it a whirl with your set up to find out the truth on what it'll do.

 

[pelago]

Re: accuracy over velocity??

i hear (and agree somewhat) to all, however some flies in the ointment.
no place to practice at 600 yards, no place to "experiment" at 600 yards (or longer) some matches at Camp Butner, Camp Perry

what i have is one fire lane at 200 yards that requires me to be there at the opening bell of the range, and i can do some prone work until the blast away guys show up

and only have one 100 yard three position location at same range and usually same rules apply, there is a new range about 30 miles away that advertises 500 yard, i went and looked at it and it is a cut thru woods unbelievable shadows, like being in a cave, but might try it, not sure if i could see the holes in the target with my scope, but might be able to see if i use one of the targets that enhance the hit

getting there first is not a issue and i do it all the time and shoot four times a week (never on sat and sunday)

so i need probably best way to put it is a starting point, got some respectable velocities with H4350 and H 4831 ordered some imr 4831 and am (i think leaning towards 175 grain ) but need a place to start, once again velocity has to overcome accuracy, but and i know probably different, but i dont want to have shot five hundred rounds before i am close, but if i have to would do so and the 03A4 i built deserves the best ammo i can feed it, amazing how good those old barrels were, first time out of the box with hornady ammo shot 6 X's in a row at 600, that was fun

waiting for 178 grain hornady a max, what was the velocity of the 3006 175 grain bullet

 

[TOP PREDATOR]

Re: accuracy over velocity??

if you are pleased with the hornady ammo, take the hornady ammo, run it through a chrony, get an avg. FPS

take some unfired rounds, tear them apart and measure EVERYTHING.
take some unfired rounds, leave them intact and measure EVERYTHING.

then start your powder charge on the low side, using the measurements off the hornady ammo until you match that velocity.

or just use hornady ammo.

never give up accuraccy for more FPS, it doesn't make sense. accuraccy is job #1. flatter isn't better, flatter is for lazy folks that don't want to do the math, practice, or adjust the elevation turret.

 

[kentactic]

Re: accuracy over velocity??

Like stated above... aslong as its still accurate who gives a shit what the velocity is... im already turning the turret so who cares if its 8 mills or 10... velocity is just a means to achieve the accuracy at the range you desire. so long as it remains accurate then the velocity is sufficient.

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: accuracy over velocity??

I reload for accuracy.

HOWEVER if while running the workup I find an accuracy node at a higher velocity, then I will take the faster, accurate charge. If there is a very, very slight difference, then I will go for the faster node. If it's more than a slight difference, then I go for the more accurate.

 

[gvanhyning]

Re: accuracy over velocity??

I develop all my loads for accuracy and take whatever velocity I get and make that work.

 

[Joop]

Re: accuracy over velocity??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I reload for accuracy.

HOWEVER if while running the workup I find an accuracy node at a higher velocity, then I will take the faster, accurate charge. If there is a very, very slight difference, then I will go for the faster node. If it's more than a slight difference, then I go for the more accurate. </div></div>
I think LoneWolf nails it, here. This is exactly how I would approach it. If your normal practice range is limited, take the fastest rounds that are still performing within your accuracy expectations and try them at longer ranges, when you get the chance. If accuracy drops off with a slightly higher velocity, there's no point in chasing it any further up the scale. Go with the slower, more accurate load.

 

[pelago]

Re: accuracy over velocity??

well that is the process i am in now, initial loads to me were just way too hot. think they can be toned down and still be accurate

next batch shoot this week, five dif loads all run thu meter and grouped

 

[jeep505090]

Re: accuracy over velocity??

I would be careful with such old rifles personally, velocity and pressure are very closley related. Although these older rifles were built fairly solid, the powders being used then are worlds apart from the powder being used today, depending what you use. Point is I would not push any bullet "hard" in an older/vintage rifle. Yes I have an 03.

 

[Wannashootit]

Re: accuracy over velocity??

Your question seems to imply that velocity is proportional to accuracy... meaning that maximum velocity translates to maximum accuracy.

Actually, I've found only one circumstance where maximum load, for a given bullet, resulted in maximum accuracy for that pill.

I load for our four different centerfire calibers, and the most accurate load is almost always somewhat less then max...

This surprised me, as everyone always seems to be pushing hot loads to the max just waiting for a primer to pop or be unable to extract a case.

 

[200 20x]

Re: accuracy over velocity??

My M1 Garand would not shoot well over 2450 fps with 168 smk's. My 03 shoots great at 2700 fps with 168 smk's. I would choose accuracy every time. Know the part that is going to drive someone nuts. In my book 168 grain match bullets are good for 900 yds. The 175 grain you want to use are good for 1000 yds. Bench rest stats will support this, not NRA high power stats. Anyways, if you shoot 168 grain time of flight will be shorter than the 175 grain (good). I agree with Tubb, the more time you spend shooting, the more variables you will have to deal with. The slower your bullet travels the more the wind will affect it and change before your next shot. Even if your heavy bullet helps more to offset the wind you will still need to dope. Basically, If you want to shoot higher velocity switch to a lighter bullet, and every rifle has a velocity sweat spot. OK let me have it.

 

[z71rat]

Re: accuracy over velocity??

I don't have a stinkin clue how fast my stuff is running. Honestly, I don't care. What I do care about, is the fact that I just began loading for my Predator, and I am already seeing some very impressive numbers from my groupings with different bullet types, weights, and powders.

I always start my loads out kinda on the light side, but I can't complain. Some of my results are speaking volumes. Let the rifle dictate to "YOU" what "IT" likes, not the other way around.

DK

 

[longguntoter]

Re: accuracy over velocity??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Joop</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There are so many variables in rifles, barrels, bullets, powders(not to mention the shooter), etc., etc. that you probably won't know for sure until you try it. I don't think there's any golden rule with this. Others can give you their experiences and you're likely to have similar results, but until you go out and shoot the distances you're concerned about, with the rifles and loads that you're working with, it's really anybody's guess. </div></div>This is very true. Some loads will do better in some rifles than others, but it is tough to come to a definitive answer.

 

[HPLLC]

Re: accuracy over velocity??

Sometimes you can't really compromise velocity- I just picked up a LMT MWS 16" gun- and the previous owner was getting serious velocity drops with 43 grain loads compared to 45grain loads.

2480FPS with 45 grains of Varget and 2350 with 43 grains.

I think 2480 is great- and totally manageable for a long range rifle. But 2350 to me sounds like I'm blurring the lines between downgrading to something like 7.62x39. I know that's a bit of an exaggeration but sometimes it's hard to want to sacrifice any more velocity.

 

[oneshot onekill]

Re: accuracy over velocity??

I guess I'm a simpleton. I don't even consider velocity when I'm working up a load. I don't even own a Chrony. I just read up on the range of powder charges for my round, work within that range and use the one that yields the best accuracy. I have to admit I lean toward the lower charges because recoil is not your friend... Or badge of honor. It just fucks up your follow up shot. FWIW...

 

[Frank Green]

Re: accuracy over velocity??

Also load for accuracy first and then go for velocity. Every gun is different as to what it can like.

Every load (type of powder and amount of powder) has what they call an accuracy window.

Lets say you are using x for powder and it might have a accuracy window of 40 grains to 42.5 grains of powder for your .308 win.

You have to play with your powder and loads etc....

Alot of what your loading (cartridge type and the powders burning rate) can effect the accuracy and velocity also. What I'm saying here is want the case to be fuller more than empty. A fuller case usually leads to a more uniform burn of the powder. To much powder or compressing the load even though it might be safe and you get more velocity the accuracy can go sour.

Hope this made sense.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

 

[Country]

Re: accuracy over velocity??

A load can be accurate at short range but it is possible that it can have not enough retained velocity at a longer range to be accurate during the transonic zone . If you need accuarcy at a particular range then you need to make sure it's velocity stays above the speed of sound at that range . So that one hole load at 100 yards could spray all over at 900 because it went subsonic right at 900.
For example the 178 A max mentioned , even if it started out at 2500 fps it would still be super sonic past 600 yards so you would be ok going for the lesser recoiling accurate load at standard atmosphere and altitude as long as you can get accuracy at the lower velocity due to other loading factors as stated in post above .

 

[MAT4-82]

Re: accuracy over velocity??

In my book 168 grain match bullets are good for 900 yds.
Depends on what you shoot them out of. USMC used them with great success at 1000yds in their magnums for quite a while.Also
remember that Garands and 03s were designed to shoot 147 and 150 grain bullets so with issue barrels longer projos might not perform as well.

 

[Lefty06]

Re: accuracy over velocity??

I take accuracy over velocity any day. My 30-06 rounds aren't as fast as they could be but the accuracy is there so I'm happy with it.

 

[Frank Green]

Re: accuracy over velocity??

The longer bullets should shoot just fine. Standard '03 barrels and M1 Garand barrels are all 1-10 twist. This twist will handle up to most of the 210/220gr. bullets.

The problem with the Garand is the op rod etc...you have to watch what type of powder you are using. To slow of a powder and you can build to much port pressure. This can lead to bent op rods.

My Garand and '03's even with 175 and 180gr. bullets shoot extremely well.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

 

[Killer Spade 13]

Re: accuracy over velocity??

A basic question . . .

You're shooting at him at 3440 FPS and can't hit him.
He's shooting at you at 1890 FPS but CAN hit you.

Which do YOU want?

 

[Unknown]

Re: accuracy over velocity??

I vote for accuracy over velocity. You have to dial in dope anyhow, so you might as well have a rifle that is accurate enough once the bullet arrives at it's destination. A 2.5 moa rifle at 450 yards equals 11.25 inches while a 1.25 moa rifle at the same is only half that... If shooting at a head sized target, the 2.5 moa rifle might hit the target, while the 1.25 moa rifle probably will hit the target. Hits are all that counts.. It doesn't matter how hard the bullet strikes if it is a miss.

 

[gprippers]

Re: accuracy over velocity??

You gotta hit what you are aiming at or everything else doesnt matter! Accuracy over velocity is just plain common sense. 3000 fps that goes winging by the target without impact has no value at all and a bullet traveling at 1800 fps that impacts center mass (or anywhere on target for that matter) does the damage we are looking to afflict. A miss is NOTHING but a MISS regardless of how fast that miss is going! LOL!

 

[Loner]

Re: accuracy over velocity??

I have been asked this question by the guys I shoot and hunt with.Only becuse I have reloaded longer than they have not becuse I'm a expert.
I allways give the same answer I use 58.7gr.of IMR4831 with a Sierra 165 gr. spitzer in one of my 30-06's and it will shot under a MOA at 200 yards. But so will 55 grains of the same powder with the same bullet.
I have also learned that the 55 grain load will make a cleaner kill on Mule deer than the 58.7 grain load will. It makes a bigger wound cannel and losses it's energy in the animal where the 58.7 grain load has a tendency to just drill a hole through the animal and not mushroom,unless it hits bone.
So it's 55 grains for me. That also means more rounds per pound of powder cleaner kills and maybe a bit longer barrel life.
But if I'm smacking silhouettes out at 500 yards or further the 58.7 grain rounds get loaded in the chamber for reasons answered in above posts.


Also look at how slow 22 match ammo is compared to what is out there to be had.

 

[95LTZ]

Re: accuracy over velocity??

I personally don't care how fast I miss my intended target.

 

[jenng]

Re: accuracy over velocity??

Accuracy every time.