Accuracy Question, 700 Tactical .223 with M223

[Nishgriff]

Hey, I've got a .223 700 in a B&C Light Tactical Stock with a Nikon M223 BDC600 Scope. The range I've been shooting at only goes to 300. I've been shooting consistent .6MOA to .74MOA groups with it at 300 with Black Hills 69 grain. I have shot as good as .3MOA groups with it, but it averages about .65 MOA.

My question is what else can I do to this rifle to improve accuracy? I am pretty sure that I can squeeze it down a little bit to eliminate shooter error and tighten up... But if I trued the action and got a custom barrel would that allow me to shoot better, at least hypothetically? If I had a complete custom rifle built by GAP or someone, hypothetically could I shoot tighter groups?

At 300 the M223 reticle almost subtends the 1MOA target dot. I almost like it that way, because I have to bisect the larger target circle... If I had a better (Nightforce NXS 4.5-22) scope would that allow me to shoot better?

I ask because I'm looking to do some sort of match... That's the second part of my question... What sort of competition should I look at to start with so I have something to train for? I have read the NRA HP and F-TR rules. Seems F-TR 600 Mid Range might be a good place to start... Suggestions are welcomed. I am currently in CO, but will be moving to SoCal (Encinitas) in a month or two. Would love to meet and shoot with people who know their way around matches and could make some enlightened suggestions...

The image attached show three 5 shot groups at 300 (the other dots are from another rifle). I'd really like to get better...

 

[abogue77]

I have the same gun in a HS Precision stock, I get very good .5 MOA and better groups with Varget behind 55 gn Sierra's. The problem is that that rifle has a 1:9 twist and doesn't like my heavier hand loads, which would be required I think for F/TR. Now, would I spend GAP money to redo a .223, probably not, I personally would go with a larger caliber. I've never shot past 300 with mine so I'm not an expert. That is a sweet little rifle for the money though. I slapped a 3-9x Leupold Mark AR Mod 1 and love it.

 

[abogue77]

I've kinda been in the same boat you are, I want more outta the gun, but I'm hesitant to drop and more money in it, it all adds up over time and then you look back and think "damn I could've built a nice rifle for that kind of money".

 

[Nishgriff]

OK, I have been shooting this gun a lot. I have probably 1000 rounds through it by now. I had an issue with dinging the crown, so my groups have opened up significantly. I have it up at Mile High Shooting to get it recrowned/threaded, Timney Trigger (the stupid xmark pro won't adjust down lower than lbs!)

But with careful shooting I can still get sub MOA. My question is about changing point of impact. I have a common problem where I'll shoot pretty tight groups, let's say one is .75MOA. But there's a half inch between a three shot cluster, and a separate two shot cluster. I can't correlate it with changing/rebuilding position, but it certainly could be changing my NPA and my position shifting. I also wonder if parallax has anything to do with it. I do my best to adjust parallax well, but no matter how much I try I seem to be able to adjust it differently each time.

I guess it could be factory ammo (blackhills 69 SMK and FGMM 69 SMK), or just the fact that this is a factory rifle. But because the groups are so tight apart from the gap I question this. Any insight or thoughts would be welcomed. I assume it's some issue with parallax or my position. To reiterate, I don't always get this group pattern, but it's common for me. It's frustrating because this would be a sub 1/2MOA group if I could get them all together.

I'll attach a few images that illustrate this. Both shot with Black Hills 69 from Prone with Bipod and rear bag.

The first is at 100 yards.

The second is at 300. Same pattern. (this one is rotated wrong) three shots clustered, and two more 1/2 moa down to the left.

 

[usmc02xx]

the rifle should absolutely be capable of sub half moa with your listed specs. two things i can think of to help out. Make your own round so you can tune it and get rid of the dispersion and higher magnification on your glass. I use pretty much the same rig, with 62gn i average .6moa, with 69gn smk i average under .5 moa with my ammo. But I also use a 6-24 vortex viper hs and shoot at .25 inch dots for targets. OH one more thing, are you cleaning it a lot? I'll see groups like that right after i clean until i get my barrel good and fouled again and it settles in. AH and a last thing, are you tightening your action screws to the proper inch lbs?

 

[Rattler56]

The Timney trigger will really help, are you reloading or box ammo?
Make sure that the base is tight,rings,action and I have had problems in the past with cheaper bases, I use a 20 moa Nightforce on my 700's
and it has helped out, well worth the price.
Also the proper OAL makes a big difference and if you are reloading, its hard to hit the lands with a 700 in the smaller calibers, so I
load long as I feel safe with my 22-250 about 2.400 and bullet in bullet at a 100 yards with 39.7 of Varget.

 

[Deltagunner00]

I would say to start rolling your own ammo and find a local F T/R match and either go watch the first one or jump right in. I almost guarantee you that they will make you feel comfortable and let you ask as many questions as needed. You will have a blast and fit right in. Good luck!

 

[RugerSlinger]

Is the rifle bedded? I didn't see it any where in the posts if it is or isn't. Also check the parallax on your scope. My SPS Tac loves 69gn Nosler CC over 24.5gn Varget if you get into reloading.

 

[Nishgriff]

OH one more thing, are you cleaning it a lot? I'll see groups like that right after i clean until i get my barrel good and fouled again and it settles in. AH and a last thing, are you tightening your action screws to the proper inch lbs?

Yes, action screws tightened to spec. As for cleaning, it depends on what 'a lot' is. I have found that after I clean it it groups pretty well, but after 40-50 rounds I get groups like this:

and this:

I notice it gets powder fouled very quickly, like after 10 rounds, and shows a lot of carbon residue visible in the barrel. Sometimes just a patch or two with CLP to get rid of that makes it tighten down to this:

That was shot directly after the previous image, after just the quick CLP cleaning. (shot under variable winds and I suck at reading wind, so that's horizontal dispersion, not vertical, again, the program rotates the images wrong).

If I don't clean for say 150-200 rounds I get 2MOA groups. I see people posting about not cleaning, but this rifle does not like that. It doesn't settle in with fouling or anything. It shoots best after cleaning, and it fouls quickly.

Yes, base, rings, action screws torqued correctly. No, rifle is not bedded, but is in a B&C stock with the aluminum bedding block. I shoot FGMM or Black HIlls match in 69 SMK.

Thanks so much for your thoughts guys, any other input is welcomed. And yes, I think I need to head to a comp and ask questions and have a good time!

 

[Rattler56]

The target above would tell me that theres a seating issue with my reloads, changing pressure and velocity.
But thats just me and I would check the OAL/Ogive on each bullet for the next group.

 

[usmc02xx]

Yes, action screws tightened to spec. As for cleaning, it depends on what 'a lot' is. I have found that after I clean it it groups pretty well, but after 40-50 rounds I get groups like this: I notice it gets powder fouled very quickly, like after 10 rounds, and shows a lot of carbon residue visible in the barrel. Sometimes just a patch or two with CLP to get rid of that makes it tighten down to this:

That was shot directly after the previous image, after just the quick CLP cleaning. (shot under variable winds and I suck at reading wind, so that's horizontal dispersion, not vertical, again, the program rotates the images wrong).

If I don't clean for say 150-200 rounds I get 2MOA groups. I see people posting about not cleaning, but this rifle does not like that. It doesn't settle in with fouling or anything. It shoots best after cleaning, and it fouls quickly.

Yes, base, rings, action screws torqued correctly. No, rifle is not bedded, but is in a B&C stock with the aluminum bedding block. I shoot FGMM or Black HIlls match in 69 SMK.

Thanks so much for your thoughts guys, any other input is welcomed. And yes, I think I need to head to a comp and ask questions and have a good time!

mine likes to run dirty for about 400-500 rounds. then back to clean bore. after a bore scrub i put about 30 downrange and settle in until accuracy starts falling off again. but every rifle is a little different. My 308 can usually got 700-800 rounds between. but my 243 was closer to 400 rounds also.

 

[10micmic]

Swap barrels bartlien (if i spelled that right )is one of my favorites go with 5 R rifling.glass bed the stock.are you can have a smith set the barrel back and rechamber it.and check the weight of each pieces of brass.and only use the ones that are within one grain of each other.hand weigh your powder.and use a good constent primer benchrest are match primer (i like cci br2) and check your concitricity (i know i miss spelled that )make sure its under 3 thousandth.if its over 3 thousandth it hits the lanes at a mild angle and leaves at a mild angle and it will open up your groups

 

[10micmic]

Oh and double check your cant

 

[leadbullet]

Install a match barrel, top of the line trigger an aftermarket stock like a McMillan or Manners then replace the action with a BAT or Stiller give all the parts to a great gunsmith
and finally buy a better scope and you are done.
Simple isn't it!!

 

[10micmic]

U dont have to buy a differ reciever just get yours blueprinted

 

[tylerw02]

I'd imagine you're shooting prone or from a bench. If you can group under MOA from those positions, you should try positional shooting and start becoming a better shooter. If your rifle consistently shoots sub-MOA you're good. Go start on barricades, standing, kneeling, off-hand, etc. Learn to use your sling. When you burn out your current barrel, you'll be a good shooter and it will be time to send it to GAP for truing and a new barrel.

 

[hahco]

I'd imagine you're shooting prone or from a bench. If you can group under MOA from those positions, you should try positional shooting and start becoming a better shooter. If your rifle consistently shoots sub-MOA you're good. Go start on barricades, standing, kneeling, off-hand, etc. Learn to use your sling. When you burn out your current barrel, you'll be a good shooter and it will be time to send it to GAP for truing and a new barrel.

That's what I'd do too. If you and the rifle are shooting the consistent MOA that you're showing, it's time to do some work. have some fun with the thing.

Nothing wrong with benchrest shooting and chasing those groups, if that's what you want to do. You're just gonna have to dump some money into that SPS to make it do better than what it's doing currently.

 

[BERTMAN77MK2]

Keep the action and sell the rest, a great stock or chassis and a great barrel and trigger built
by one of the accredited smiths here will get the consistency you desire

 

[10micmic]

Aman to that ...............

 

[Nishgriff]

I'd imagine you're shooting prone or from a bench. If you can group under MOA from those positions, you should try positional shooting and start becoming a better shooter. If your rifle consistently shoots sub-MOA you're good. Go start on barricades, standing, kneeling, off-hand, etc. Learn to use your sling. When you burn out your current barrel, you'll be a good shooter and it will be time to send it to GAP for truing and a new barrel.

Yeah, I was thinking of just going til this barrel burns out, then getting it trued when I get a new barrel. Not really gonna have the money for a full custom for a while...

I HAVE been shooting from the prone and bench... I learned to shoot in the Marines with a sling, I think I'll try to remember how it's done. It FEELS heavier than an M-16A2, I think offhand is gonna be tough. I'd rather do that than benchrest. I also think reading wind is a big weak point for me too.

I don't always shoot sub-MOA, but I can correlate groups bigger than 1MOA to NOT cleaning. I know that everyone talks about not cleaning, but when I let it go for 35-40 rounds like I show above the groups open up. Just running a patch with CLP down the barrel then a dry one tightens them back up...

And to answer questions, it's in a Bell and Carlson Light Tactical with Karsten Cheek rest. Not glass bedded, but fully floated with the aluminum bedding block. I may sell the scope and another rifle and get an SWFA fixed power.

Thanks for the responses guys!