accuracy woes... please help (Rem 700)

[Drifter™]

Having some issues regarding accuracy with a Rem 700 6.8 SPC. I'm somewhat inexperienced with tweaking bolt rifles, so could use some help.

Rifle is new-to-me, supposedly had only ~60 rounds through it by previous owner. I suppose it's some version of Rem's LTR, as it has a 22" fluted barrel with contour seemingly being heavy sporter (not as thick as a varmint barrel). I restocked it with a B&C BCS1000, but it hasn't been bedded. The rifle wears a new Leupold Mark 4 3.5-10x scope in NF rings on a Ken Farrell base. Stock screws torqued to ~60 inch-lbs.

With a variety of handloads and factory ammo shooting 3-shot groups at various distances (up to 550 yards), it usually puts two shots ~0.5moa apart, with a flyer at least 2moa away (usually horizontal for the most part). Clean or dirty barrel doesn't seem to matter. The chrono indicates that muzzle velocities are very close (ES= 25 fps or less with handloads).

Scope mounts are secure, and let's assume that the shooter did his part.

I'm thinking the issue could be one (or more) of three things: barrel, bedding, and / or scope.

I plan to try the scope on another rifle just to be sure that it's not the culprit. But it will be a few days before that can happen.

Reading this forum, I know that bedding is usually recommended. But before I go to that trouble, will bedding correct 2moa flyers? Or is my barrel (or crown) more likely the issue?

I shoot an AR 6.8 alongside this rifle, with most groups being ~1moa or less. I want this bolt rifle to shoot with it (accuracy-wise), but so far, no dice...

Any feedback to point me in the right direction would be appreciated.

Thanks

 

[diggler1833]

Re: accuracy woes... please help (Rem 700)

It could be a number of things. Bedding a rifle isn't too difficult, you just need to take your time when doing so (for prep, not once you've laid the compound in the stock). I personally bed all of my rifles into their stocks before I shoot them, doesn't mean that you have to though.

One thing that gave me fits until I figured it out was my forward screw in my Nightforce mount. It was coming in contact with my barrel shroud, and giving me inconsistant accuracy until I found out what the problem was and fixed it.

That is just one idea though. I'm sure that there are many others on here with experience with this that can help.

 

[oneshot onekill]

Re: accuracy woes... please help (Rem 700)

Too many variables. Try shooting 5 shot groups at 100yds with each of the different types of ammo. You really need to put a bunch of rounds down range like that to be sure it's not operator error. Also, let someone else try it. You need to be sure to completely eliminate the human factor before blaming the equipment. Hope it dials in for ya.

John

 

[Drifter™]

Re: accuracy woes... please help (Rem 700)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: diggler1833</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

One thing that gave me fits until I figured it out was my forward screw in my Nightforce mount. It was coming in contact with my barrel shroud, and giving me inconsistant accuracy until I found out what the problem was and fixed it.

That is just one idea though. I'm sure that there are many others on here with experience with this that can help. </div></div>

If I remember correctly, I had to grind down the front screw of the KF base, as it was too long initially. It might still be contacting the bottom (shroud?), so that's something I'll take another look at. Thanks for the suggestion.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: oneshot onekill</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Too many variables. Try shooting 5 shot groups at 100yds with each of the different types of ammo. You really need to put a bunch of rounds down range like that to be sure it's not operator error. Also, let someone else try it. You need to be sure to completely eliminate the human factor before blaming the equipment. Hope it dials in for ya.

John </div></div>

Three different shooters with three different rifles on hand for one shoot. This bolt rifle was the only one that gave us trouble. Just me on a couple of additional shoots trying to figure it out, but something's amiss besides shooter error.

 

[oneshot onekill]

Re: accuracy woes... please help (Rem 700)

40+MPH Gusting Crosswinds...

Just kiddin'. Seriously, 2 shots being sub-MOA and the 3rd wandering off every time (or even "almost" every time) just doesn't make sense.

Maybe check and see if your barrel is touching the stock anywhere after it heats up a little. That could mess up the harmonics and throw the shot off.

 

[Drifter™]

Re: accuracy woes... please help (Rem 700)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: oneshot onekill</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Maybe check and see if your barrel is touching the stock anywhere after it heats up a little. That could mess up the harmonics and throw the shot off. </div></div>

It's a heavy sporter barrel in a varmint stock, so you could slide a piece of cardboard from the forend to the receiver. In other words, the barrel channel is oversized considerably, so the barrel is <span style="font-style: italic">very</span> free-floated.

 

[carbinero]

Re: accuracy woes... please help (Rem 700)

yeah, something's amiss. I would mic each round at the neck. I got some factory ammo which was really out of spec. Then, I found that some ammo hit 6 MOA left/right of other loads. I got 1 MOA at 100 with my AR-15 once I figured out what was going on, and a better shooter than I would do better, obviously.

 

[Hasgun Willtravel]

Re: accuracy woes... please help (Rem 700)

I had similar issues with a BC stock on a 22.250. The problem was the bolt handle was touching the stock. I trimmed that up, skim bedded it, and re-crowned it. It whent from shooting two very tight 10 shot groups about 1.5" away from each other to one nice tidy little cluster.

 

[Drifter™]

Re: accuracy woes... please help (Rem 700)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HasgunWilltravel</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I had similar issues with a BC stock on a 22.250. The problem was the bolt handle was touching the stock. I trimmed that up, skim bedded it, and re-crowned it. It whent from shooting two very tight 10 shot groups about 1.5" away from each other to one nice tidy little cluster. </div></div>

I just checked that after reading your post, but the bolt doesn't appear to contact the stock at all.

Thanks for the suggestion. It was worth a try...

 

[Apache]

Re: accuracy woes... please help (Rem 700)

Just curious, I've always heard of the bolt touching the stock, but I've never seen what this actually meant. Can someone post a picture? I've got a B&C stock and theres an area around the recess where the bolt handle is that some of the paint has rubbed off from the bolt handle, so this could be a problem I never knew was there.

 

[oneshot onekill]

Re: accuracy woes... please help (Rem 700)

Is it a "factory" rifle? Or did someone build it? I noticed after reading the OP that you called it "some version of Rem's LTR". There really aren't "versions" of the LTR. It would have a 20" barrel, Wide shallow flutes and would have originally had an HS Precision Stock that has a thinner fore-end than a PSS. Everything would be Flat-Black (including the Bolt-body). If this doesn't match the rifle then it's not an LTR. Not that it makes much difference but knowing whether or not it's a "factory" rifle can have a bearing.

Any pics?

 

[Drifter™]

Re: accuracy woes... please help (Rem 700)

I'm guilty of not knowing all the models in Remington's lineup, especially discontinued models, and I can't say for sure which model I have. This particular one is indeed a factory model, with matte black metal, a 22" fluted barrel, and gray synthetic stock. It's at least as old as 2006, as I think that was the last year that Rem put out rifles in 6.8 SPC. The flimsy factory stock has been replaced with the B&C model mentioned in the first post. I have pics of it before the stock change, but I'm not currently on my home computer. I can post a pic in a couple of days.

Of course, any additional feedback would be appreciated.

 

[tommy240]

Re: accuracy woes... please help (Rem 700)

Remember test the gun at 100 and 200 yards work out all problems then test shooter at longer ranges.

Have you confirmed that the barrel is full floated. If action is cocked side ways any and barrel touches in stock past the recoil lug could cause accuracy problem. If action is moving any, recoil lug not on flat surface just to name a few things to look at.

 

[banshee sws]

Re: accuracy woes... please help (Rem 700)

if you plan on owning it and can justify spending some money on it

i would get it bedded or do it yourself

shoot it , see if that helped

if not, then i would replace the trigger with a shilen or a rifle basix,


shoot it , see if that helped

*these are things that are pretty standard mods, upgrades, etc., to bolt guns,
so it's not money wasted *

finally since its an unknown factor (you were told round count was 60 ) but you don't know that to be fact, you might consider, TUBB's fire lapping stuff, FINAL FINISH ,


shoot it , see if that helped

what power is your scope ?
how are you shooting ? bench, OR prone on the ground w/ bipod?

have you shot groups at 100 yds with it ? results ?

 

[Drifter™]

Re: accuracy woes... please help (Rem 700)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tommy240</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Remember test the gun at 100 and 200 yards work out all problems then test shooter at longer ranges.

Have you confirmed that the barrel is full floated. If action is cocked side ways any and barrel touches in stock past the recoil lug could cause accuracy problem. If action is moving any, recoil lug not on flat surface just to name a few things to look at. </div></div>

I've tested it a 100, 200, and 400 yards on paper, and 500 and 550 on steel.

Barrel is definitely free floated. Due to my inexperience tweaking bolt rifles, not sure if lug is properly situated...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: banshee sws</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

if you plan on owning it and can justify spending some money on it <span style="color: blue">definitely plan to keep it, even if it has to be rebarreled</span>

i would get it bedded or do it yourself <span style="color: blue">how much difference does bedding usually make?</span>

shoot it , see if that helped

if not, then i would replace the trigger with a shilen or a rifle basix, <span style="color: blue">already installed a Timney</span>


shoot it , see if that helped

*these are things that are pretty standard mods, upgrades, etc., to bolt guns,
so it's not money wasted *

finally since its an unknown factor (you were told round count was 60 ) but you don't know that to be fact, you might consider, TUBB's fire lapping stuff, FINAL FINISH , <span style="color: blue">already done</span>


shoot it , see if that helped

what power is your scope ? <span style="color: blue">10x</span>
how are you shooting ? bench, OR prone on the ground w/ bipod? <span style="color: blue">bench using sand bags</span>

have you shot groups at 100 yds with it ? results ? <span style="color: blue">Two shots are usually within 0.5", with a third shot 2" or more out.</span>

</div></div>

See replies in <span style="color: blue">blue</span> above.

Thanks

 

[7stw]

Re: accuracy woes... please help (Rem 700)

Hello, I am a Remington fan from way back, but unfortionately, the NEW generation of remys are not as good as they used to be. I recently had a fairly new rifle that drove me nuts, until I checked the crown with a magnifing glass and found it to be not concentric, OR even square with the bore. I had a 11 degree TARGET crown "installed" and the rifle now shoots 1/4 groups. The QC at remington now is not the best these days. That is a sad thing for me to even say, as I have always loved their products in the past. Another thing to check is bolt lug contact. It should be uniform on BOTH lugs and cover most if not all of the lug surface. If not, you could have to lap the bolt, but care must be used, because if too much material is removed the headspace will get longer. Also, some of the barrels recently are like a rollercoaster inside. I have noticed this while cleaning with a tight patched jag. You can feel tight or loose SPOTS in the bore using an even push from breach to muzzle. Just a few thoughts to check. Aim Small, Miss Small!

 

[oneshot onekill]

Re: accuracy woes... please help (Rem 700)

Back in WWII there was a model of British Enfield called the "Jungle Carbine". It was a shortened version of their battle rifle with a cut-down stock and flash hider that looked like a funnel. These rifles were notorious for what was deemed "Wandering-Zero". They would shoot fine and then for no discernable reason send a flyer that could be off by feet at 100yds! It's the only rifle I've ever heard of doing such a thing on it's own. Maybe you just need to go ahead and replace the barrel and call it a day.

Hell, if you've actually purposely run something abrasive down the bore in an effort to "lap" it without having it professionally "hand-lapped" you may have ruined the bore anyway.

 

[Drifter™]

Re: accuracy woes... please help (Rem 700)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bob Culver</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hello, I am a Remington fan from way back, but unfortionately, the NEW generation of remys are not as good as they used to be. I recently had a fairly new rifle that drove me nuts, until I checked the crown with a magnifing glass and found it to be not concentric, OR even square with the bore. I had a 11 degree TARGET crown "installed" and the rifle now shoots 1/4 groups. The QC at remington now is not the best these days. That is a sad thing for me to even say, as I have always loved their products in the past. Another thing to check is bolt lug contact. It should be uniform on BOTH lugs and cover most if not all of the lug surface. If not, you could have to lap the bolt, but care must be used, because if too much material is removed the headspace will get longer. Also, some of the barrels recently are like a rollercoaster inside. I have noticed this while cleaning with a tight patched jag. You can feel tight or loose SPOTS in the bore using an even push from breach to muzzle. Just a few thoughts to check. Aim Small, Miss Small! </div></div>

I'll take a close look at the crown. Might need assistance to properly check lug contact. Thanks for the suggestions.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: oneshot onekill</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Maybe you just need to go ahead and replace the barrel and call it a day.

Hell, if you've actually purposely run something abrasive down the bore in an effort to "lap" it without having it professionally "hand-lapped" you may have ruined the bore anyway. </div></div>

I'm willing to replace the barrel, but prefer to avoid the expense (and delay) unless I can convince myself that the barrel is the problem.

As for the Tubbs, I've used it successfully so many times on factory barrels that I no longer even bother to check accuracy before using it. But I do <span style="text-decoration: underline">not</span> use it with my hand-lapped AR barrels.

On Monday, I plan to verify that the scope is okay (or not) by trying it on a different rifle, and / or trying another scope on this rifle. I've also shortened the front screw of the scope mount base to make sure that it's not bottoming out against the barrel shroud.

I'm out of town at the moment and unable to test everyone's suggestions, but thought it was a good time to post this thread in hopes of getting direction during my downtime. Whatever the eventual outcome is, I'll be sure to post it in this thread.

Please keep the thoughts and suggestions coming...

Thanks

 

[Aaron Thurber]

Re: accuracy woes... please help (Rem 700)

If it "consistently" shoots first two in and third out, then it has to relate to heating of the barrel/movement of action caused by heating. That would seem to indicate a bedding problem (which can be solved) or a bad barrel problem (solvable by a new barrel or maybe cyro?).

Bedding would sure be an easy try.

 

[Drifter™]

Re: accuracy woes... please help (Rem 700)

Don't <span style="font-style: italic">think</span> it's barrel heat since there doesn't seem to be a predictable sequence to the flyers. But heat could still be a factor...

Might have to try bedding. I certainly believe that it will help, but not sure that it will reel in 2+moa flyers.

My gut keeps telling me that it's the scope, but not what I would expect from a brand new Leupold Mark 4...

 

[donovan]

Re: accuracy woes... please help (Rem 700)

sounds like it is 2 grouping if you relaod play with the seating depth.

 

[Drifter™]

Re: accuracy woes... please help (Rem 700)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: donovan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">sounds like it is 2 grouping if you relaod play with the seating depth. </div></div>

Easy enough to try. -Thanks

 

[dareposte]

Re: accuracy woes... please help (Rem 700)

Check your crown, and also examine the bore for copper. I've had barrels that copper fouled so bad that they would start doing that after just a few shots, throwing bad horizontal flyers.

If you see evidence of heavy copper in the lands, you might try using some RemClean on it, and shooting a group of 5 cleaning between each shot to see if that pulls it together.

 

[Drifter™]

Re: accuracy woes... please help (Rem 700)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: oneshot onekill</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

knowing whether or not it's a "factory" rifle can have a bearing.

Any pics? </div></div>

As previously mentioned, it was a factory rifle as far as I can tell.

First pic is of an identical factory model that I found on the 'net.

Second pic shows my rifle, along with the factory stock that was removed. Obviously, I converted an ADL to a BDL.

 

[Drifter™]

Re: accuracy woes... please help (Rem 700)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Drifter_1</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: donovan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">sounds like it is 2 grouping if you relaod play with the seating depth. </div></div>

Easy enough to try. -Thanks </div></div>

Pondering your suggestion a bit more, I might try seating a few bullets to an extra long COL, then single-feed 'em and see what happens.

With the factory ADL stock and mag box, and also with the conversion to a BDL stock and .223 box, the COL is somewhat limited. No doubt the bullet has quite a jump to the lands.

If accuracy improved with an extended COL, I suppose that I might could use a .308 box, follower, & spring instead of .223.

Thoughts...?

 

[ARsR4ME]

Re: accuracy woes... please help (Rem 700)

Do you know anyone with a leadsled or any other sort of rest. I use a leadsled for reloads to take me out of the equation. I've heard of a firing pin causeing problems, something about it not hitting hard enough or hanging.... never dealt with that. I have seen the exact same thing you described with improper parllax of the scope.

 

[Drifter™]

Re: accuracy woes... please help (Rem 700)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Drifter_1</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Drifter_1</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: donovan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">sounds like it is 2 grouping if you relaod play with the seating depth. </div></div>

Easy enough to try. -Thanks </div></div>

Pondering your suggestion a bit more, I might try seating a few bullets to an extra long COL, then single-feed 'em and see what happens.

With the factory ADL stock and mag box, and also with the conversion to a BDL stock and .223 box, the COL is somewhat limited. No doubt the bullet has quite a jump to the lands.

If accuracy improved with an extended COL, I suppose that I might could use a .308 box, follower, & spring instead of .223.

Thoughts...? </div></div>

update...

I think the COL / bullet seating depth was the issue. Instead of loading rounds too long for the mag and single-feeding as a test, I used a bullet (115gr SMK) that had an ogive further forward, thus allowing me to seat the bullet within ~.004" of the lands and still fit in the mag (COL ~2.348" in ~2.350" mag box). Accuracy improved to ~1.25moa (@ 100 & 200 yards), which was okay considering I was firing untailored handloads in new brass during breezy conditions. With bedding and tailored loads, I'm thinking I can get the average down to ~0.75moa. Thanks to donovan for suggesting this route.

But this discovery brings on a new issue...

Most bullets suitable for the 6.8 cartridge will need to be seated so far out (due to the ogive in relation to the lands) that COL will exceed what will fit in the mag box. The cartridge was designed to fit in .223 actions and mags, but this particular Rem 700 seemingly has a long throat, creating a mismatch between optimal COL and mag fit.

"If" a .308 follower will work okay with the 6.8, the .308 mag box would certainly solve the COL issue. But the mag box will be ~.5" longer than the cartridges. Would this work okay, or would it be problematic...?

Any additional feedback would be appreciated.

Thanks again for everyone's effort to help.

 

[donovan]

Re: accuracy woes... please help (Rem 700)

cut the spacer out your 223 box move it back and reweld, or drill holes[ for a mechanical lock] around the spacer end, tape that end to dept needed fill with devcon let set and clean up with a file.