Achieving Accurate Long Range Bullet Flight

[SPAK]

Re: Achieving Accurate Long Range Bullet Flight

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: memilanuk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Tom,

Just curious... I have various Wilson dies, Redding dies, Forster, etc. No Juenke machine though (yet). With sorted, neck-turned brass, etc. that comes out of the gun reading <0.001" runout... I'm still getting loaded round runout between 0.001-0.002" on some rounds, up to 0.004" on others. Even with the magic inline seating dies.

Any ideas?

Monte </div></div>

+1 I was just going to write the same thing... thanks for posting that monte...

also, any thoughts on compressed loads and their effect on run out Tom?

 

[Country]

Re: Achieving Accurate Long Range Bullet Flight

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tom Sarver</div><div class="ubbcode-body">KP,

Ok, now after looking at the press your talking about I can just about ensure you the inline bullet seater is a better method. I will attemp to show a video of the loading process I use. Forster makes a GREAT press and yes their press would be an accuracy improvement when it comes to FL sizing brass. But then again there is even a better way. I use a full length body die and an arbor press combo and that is as straight as you can get.
I also use a single stage RCBS rock chucker, which the Forster my be better I dont know. But I have minimum run out when the cases are loaded. Some day when I get time I want to build a custom press precision reloading. Have to get some irons out of the fire first. Reloading for 20 years has made me realize there is a better way. Even the advanced hand loading technics I learned shooting 1000 yard BR have room for improvement, especially the tools used for doing so. I actually learned/stumbled on a few more things after breaking two world records that I'm currently working on in the relentless pursuit of precision accuracy. </div></div>
Interesting , because I do the same thing , use a threaded body die under a heavy duty Arbour press at times.
There is no way on Gods earth that a Foster coax is more intrinsicly accurate than an arbour press inline system on average .

 

[Country]

Re: Achieving Accurate Long Range Bullet Flight

It could be neck hardness variations that are upsetting seating . It could be your seating technique or the dies or the press alighnment.
You got to start tracking the .004 runout down by changing one thing at a time . Start with neck annealing . When you seat your bullets in a 7/8 x 14 press go gently a bit at a time moving the case around 180 degrees before you finnish to final depth . It kinda gives the brass elasticity some time to accept the reshape . When using a Wilson die keep the neck tension down as mine don't do as well with high neck tensions. Then measure run out.
It could be where you are measuring . Don't measure right on the ogive toward the meplat come back to a parallel section of the bullet shank or closer to the case mouth . Bullets get slight distorsions of the ogive from ejection pin pressures and sections of the ogive that are hollow and unsupported . Work you way through each process and replace dies and press or systems until the runout is a better average .
I have a mate that was getting horrible runout with exactly the same setup as me . I could not work out what could be wrong until I actually saw him seating bullets. He was using such force and hap hazzard techniques that bullets had no chance of being straight most of the time.
It is very hard to measure run out of the bullet center axis with the case center axis when the case axis may not be inline with the outside of the case body or the primer pocket anyway . Especially in factory chambers that bulge a case sidways. I use the unexpanded part of the case base as the rear guide. It's still not perfect in a factory chamber but very close in a tight match chamber .

 

[van]

Re: Achieving Accurate Long Range Bullet Flight

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: chooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Excellent thread. The proof is in your record group. I will bet that 99.9% of us "tactical shooters" myself included do not go through this reloading process. No excuse for that either when you consider the cost of custom dies versus the cost of a custom rifle.

A little off the subject but does the "Intimidator" record holder use your reloading setup? </div></div>


chooter-

I'm not even close. My reloading is like Bugs Bunny at the munitions plant testing the shells with a hammer writing DUD on the side of it. No joke. But if I did use the techniques Tom has mentioned here I would probably be spending $5000.00 on something. This thread has me thinking to do a side by side comparison of my reloading. My main issue is time. I wish I had more of it. I look at how much time I have before I need to be at the match. If the time was spent prior to match day things would/may be better.

I know the rifle is capable. My loads are capable too. But the loads can be much better. I think it can explain my near misses on the plates. I made myself understand the situation I'm working with. I know the current capabilities of myself and my rifle. I will further work on my loading and order an inline seating seating die for my .300 Hulk. I think this is the right way to go.


van

 

[Tom Sarver]

Re: Achieving Accurate Long Range Bullet Flight

Reasons for run out..IMHO..
The main reason is not all of your brass is the same..as in the componants that makes it brass. Ever notice after a few firings on SOME brass you either get a TON of neck tension or non at all as in you can pull the bullet out of the case mouth with your fingers after you seat the bullet? This is more typical for those who turn necks for TIGHT NECK chambers..as used on MOST BR rifles. Brass reacts differently from piece to piece. It's as simple as that, they all have been fired and treated the same up to this point if you load in 50 or 100 lot sets etc. So what makes one have the proper neck tension and the other have none. One has HARDEN QUICKER than the other. Why? The mixture of what the brass is made up by is not consistant (in that spot). That's why Remington brass SUCKS..but works and Norma and Lapua and Winchester are better because they are a better quality and mixture of componants..I guess..makes sense to me. When I turn my necks for my BR light gun chambered in the Hulk (.338 neck)I turn them to a thickness of 14 thousandths. Perfect after trying different thicknesses and neck bushing I settled on 334. Now sometimmes I get one (brass) that doesnt want to retain it's memory as in I can pull the bullet out if I try hard enough or I can spin it in the case mouth.
One of the MAIN REASONS I use a INLINE bullets seater..(that is custom made) and a ARBOR press is I sort each one of my cartridges by NECK TENSION. As I apply pressure to the to the Inline dies bullet seating stem by lowering the handle of my arbor press it takes X-AMOUNT of pressure to seat each bullet. SOMETHING YOU WILL NEVER FEEL WITH A HUGE HANDLE OF A FORSTER PRESS or a Rock Chucker..most of my bullets seat like a hot knife through butter yet you can't pull the bullet out with your fingers. Others are slightly harder and some have very little neck tension. I set these to the side for foulers or sighters..not my RECORD shots because in TRUED 1000 yard BR rifle they (cases with inconsistant neck tension) will not strike the paper in the same spot. So again I believe brass when sized reacts differntly than others when you pull or extract it out of the die..it springs back. So then you must ANNEAL it. Which if you anneal you brass every 3-5 firings you wont have that issue and you can get a lot more as in 20 more firings on average than the loader who doesn't. So there is so much more involved than just what PRESS you use. Which I tried to explain before. Guys I dont have all the answers to WHY, but I do know what works and why..if that makes sense. Some day I will put it all on paper. After forming HULK brass for years I figured out how to do it..a better why. Which I shared with Karl. Did it work..and was it better Karl?
I do not check for run out once I know the attitude of what componants I'm working with. It's a waste of time for me. If I get a stubborn case I know it and set it to the side, ialready know what it issue is and there is not much I can do wiht it. It will no longer react to my life saving technics. But normally this is after about 20-30 firings so I accept it. It was good to me while it was alive. If you use good componants and TRUELY machined tools/dies then your relaoding is much easier and quicker even though your adding more steps than the averager loader, that's why your shooting TIGHTER groups than he is. You get what you put into it. I'm sure I missed something so ask me again if I didn't anwser your question. I'm at a little over 100 hours of work this week!

 

[Tom Sarver]

Re: Achieving Accurate Long Range Bullet Flight

Monte,
Are your inline dies custom made or machined by Wilson?
In no way am I bashing Wilson..I use their stuff..lol..but we buy their blanks and machine to our own tolerances with the reamers we use to chamber our rifles and FL or neck dies. so it's MUCH more accurate. It's a good idea IF you want to shoot tiny groups to have this done. But, sorting runout for some people is a waste of time. Why? Because most rifles aren't trued or custom so it makes no difference...the bullets not goin to come out straight anyway. Now, if you have a bench rifle or a tack driving CUSTOM made tactical rifle then yes by all means check it..till you stumble upon a METHOD you trust.
Because again if your loading compoants are true, you brass is alive and well and it is quailty (even a few pieces of quailty brass will dies much sooenr than others) and your rifle is true then run out or lack of it I should say it will prove it's self on paper at LONGRANGE. And by all means get a Juenke machine for the best LONGRANGE flight of your bullets. It will find the bullet that cause you to shoot 4 shots within 3" and the one 2-3 inches form that cluster making it a 5 or 6 inch group.
Hope this helps!

Sorry I missed spelled your name.

 

[memilanuk]

Re: Achieving Accurate Long Range Bullet Flight

Tom,

Store-bought. Given that outside competitive BR (or serious varmint nuts) custom-machined dies to match chambers are somewhat uncommon... just thought I'd ask for some clarification.

Also curious... whats your view on that stray shot being something the Juenke could prevent, vs. just a stray breeze out there somewhere? Obviously I'm somewhat interested in the tool, but I've seen more than a few up for sale and when queried the owner's usual response is something along the lines that they couldn't find any rhyme or reason to what components the Juenke passed and what it rejected, nor any real difference on target.

Monte

 

[Tom Sarver]

Re: Achieving Accurate Long Range Bullet Flight

No disrespect to anyone when I say this but..If someone is selling a Juenke unit for the reason they can't see a difference when using it or not using it then I would say they are not using it right or they don't know what to look for. Using the Juenke takes a lot of practice and skill.
Im sure this isn't the reason for EVERYONE. I know of a few guys who sold theirs cause they needed cash or felt it was not of use anymore to them.

From my experience it works and there is absolutely so doubt in my mind. When I have 3-4 bullets within 2" and 2 or 3 of them almost touching and ONE bullet hole 4 inches right and 8 inhes low or high or whatever it's not a condition. How do I no it's not a condition, because I shot all them in 5-8 seconds flat and I can tell by the constellation.

Also to prove that MOST..not ALL of the people who say it makes no difference are not capable at this or that moment in time to get the accuracy out of their rifle, load and their shooting skill to show or know the difference. I seen LOTS of folks get into 1000 yard BR and try and buy their wins by purchasing the absolute best money can buy including rifle, scope, rests front and rear everthing else you can imagine to be in the winners circle. After a few mathces or a season they realize that money isn't enough and you can't buy your win..you have to earn it. So, some get frustrated and blame every thing under the sun why they didn't win including their "JUNK" equipment which is top of the line.

Also, the most important reason I know the Juenke machine works is this....

In some certain LOTS of bullets they will vary from box to box and LOT to LOT. And in those lots I will occasionally
find a bullet that will spin COMPLETELY of the machines ball bearing. I mean flip off the sensor and out from under the rotating arm like you shot it out of a rubber band. Now..what do you think would happen if you had four perfect match VLD's or just very good ones and then you shoot this bullet? You guessed it..it would be about 10 inches away or in MOST cases CLEAR off the paper. That's when you hear "oh, a condition got me'..nope..that darned crappy unconcentric bullet got you.
In the several years I've used a Juenke I've seen this at least 100 times or more out of the few thousand bullets I've shot to a 1000 yard target. To shoot consistant TINY groups CONSISTANLY you need a Juenke. Normal hand/finger powered units don't come close. Yes, they work I've used them but your talking about two total different measuring devices. Internal mass can't be measured with a Sinclair or other concentricity gauge. This make all the difference.
I once did and experiment..I took 10 of those crappy bullets that flew off the sensor bearing/steel balls and spun them on a two normal concentricity gauges..the actually spun 5-8.
Then I loaded ten of them up and shot two targets/groups at 1000 yards. Then I shot one group of my gems..which make the needle just slightly twitch.
The first two groups measured 30 inches....average..with the crappy bullets. The group with the gems was just under 4 inches and centered. How these not so good bullets get mixed up in a 500 count or even 100 count box of VLD match bullets or SMK's I haven't a clue. I had a 500 count box of 240 gr. SMK's and over 100 of them were WAAAYYYY of the charts. They shot like I was throwing rocks. The next box of 500 I shot several 4" 3" 2" and a 1.397"...then the following year with the same lot I shot five sub 3" groups and several under 5".
That was a good box of bullets.

To sum it up, I have shot some great groups without spinning my bullets period. Actually a few 3" and a couple of 2".
But, I know for certain with all the test I've done that it makes a difference MOST of the time.

I also know that the men who load the bullets for the CIA, and Presidential Protection Agency use a Juenke and I would say for a good reason.

I would be willing to spin a few if a couple of you guys want to send me a batch just so you can see if it works for you.
Or make an appointment with me and take a reloading class or simply schedule a loading/testing day and I will help you see what works. Just bring all you reloading gear and we will go to work! Half way through the day we will see what works and what doesn't. Then you can go home and mass produce and shoot with a lot more confidence. This offer is for those who need the help or want it or just want to simply experiment at extreme long range.

Hope this helps!

 

[steve123]

Re: Achieving Accurate Long Range Bullet Flight

Tom,

It helps a lot.Great info!It also confirms some of the suspicions I've had over the years about consistency in bullets,brass and the rifle system.Way too many 3-4 shots touching or close and 1-2 opening up the group.I know it's me many times but still...

Once I bought a "full custom" 6mmPPC benchrest rifle with custom Wilson type dies,segregated fully prepped brass,boutique match bullets...the whole works including the load the guy used.I was shocked how accurate the gun was!!!If I shot a 1/2" group I was disappointed,LOL.So I know now first hand how accurate a rifle can be.With a few of my full custom tactical rifles I feel like I'm chasing my tail most of the time when it comes to ultimate accuracy.I find it really hard to accomplish consistent 1/2" groups.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steve123</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tom Sarver</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When I'm serious, yes prep like I'm shooting a 1000 yard match.
Most of the time though I just size and do an accurate powder charge..as in exactly 87.00 grains.
I have shot 2" groups at 1000 yards waking up the morning of the match after a hard night before and simply size my brass, add a primer, add powder, reach in the box of bullets and seat them. No weighing or sorting nothing fancy. Then go out and shoot 2"-3" five shot groups. It helps have straight dies and truely trued rifle..and good hand eye coordination. You get what you put into it to some degree.
</div></div>

Thanks Tom.

How do you prioritize which steps of brass prep are most important and what do you consider a waist if time or of little benefit.

Lets see if I can think of them all??? Also,to what tolerance is acceptable to you.

Outside neck turning,inside neck reaming,polishing insides of the neck,trimming to length,deburing flash holes,reaming flash holes,uniforming primer pockets,checking brass for runout,weight sorting brass or measuring case volume,annealing ,using clean brass every time vs dirty ???</div></div>

I've gleaned the answers to some of my questions about your brass prep from reading your previous posts but can you go into some detail of how you treat brass prep on your tactical rifle vs 1000Y benchrest rifle and do you use the Juenke machine
for just the 1000Y rifle or both rifles.How accurate are your tactical rifles ?

Thanks

 

[steve123]

Re: Achieving Accurate Long Range Bullet Flight

Any way you can post a pic of your Juenke machine ?

Thanks

 

[jrob300]

Re: Achieving Accurate Long Range Bullet Flight

Piggybacking on Steve's post...

Tom, I'd like to see a list, in order of priority of what you would do, if you were on a budget and could only add things as you got the money, to set yourself up for the most repeatable ammo.

Include free stuff like neck turning (well, I guess you need the jig) but all the little things including the hardware that YOU think are bang for buck.

TIA,

John

 

[Tom Sarver]

Re: Achieving Accurate Long Range Bullet Flight

Well here lately I'm a little rushed and lazy when it comes to laoding for my rifles. But they always shoot very accurate and never cease to amaze my customers when I demo them out to a mile with surgical hits. When I'm serious I treat my brass that I used for my tactical rifle just as I would by BR rifle. But to be honest I just load them and shoot most of the time anymore.
I'm too busy working on my customers stuff to worru about my own but again I'mmore than confident they all will shoot SUB moa at 1000 yards all day long in high wind no problem.
When I'm serious and need to show the TRUE potential of one of my rifles accuracy then I will take a little more time. As far as how accurate my tactical rifles are my customers can attest to that. The Hulk will shoot bug hole 5 shot groups at 100 yards that look like ONE .338 hole with a suppressor hanging off of it and at 1000 yards 4" on average. Same with the .260 Rem. at 100 yards and average about 6" at 1000 yards and centered beautifully.

Brass prep for the Hulk BR rifle consists of taking a fired case and full length sizing it just enough to chamber snuggly in the rifle. I want it tight but not so tight it will interfer with my "run". That's shooting 5 shots in 5-8 seconds flat with a bolt gun. Once it is sized I trim it to length with a TRUED Wilson trimmer and related tools. Then I chamfer the inside and out side of the case mouth by hand. Used to use the mini mill set up but found no diff. in accuracy for the time it took.
I true up primer pockets and clean flash holes. I don't bother spinning brass because I already know it's good from the chamber and my dies. If the brass needs annealed (usually after 5 firings) ..but not always..I try to be consistant with this so 5 works. I used to do it every firing and that works too if you have the time. I currently us STS products to clean my brass and it is the best cleaning method I've ever used. I brush the inside of the necks with a brush just to be sure ALL the carbon is gone. I keep it pretty simple now a days I just need to produce some ammo as fast as and as accurate as I can.
Spinning bullets and brass on the Juenke WILL make you shoot better groups at 1000 yards if every thing else is true and proper. Weighing brass is ok but sorting it on the Juenke is day and night.

To sum it up I'm very confident in my shooting gear and I pass my knowledge and skill onto my customers wheather I build their rifles or I'm just training them to shoot or load bullets. I keep no secrets. Usually I can get a rifle shooting (load development) in an hour or two to it's fullest potential. I have lots of reciepes I have learned over the years tuning 100's of rifles and training shooters to shoot them.

I hope I've been of some help here. I'm better in person..lol.

 

[Tom Sarver]

Re: Achieving Accurate Long Range Bullet Flight

Yes, I will get a picture of the Juenke unit. I will try to do it tonight of first thing in the morning.
I will also compile a list of reloading tools you can acquire
to help you achieve more consistent/accurate loads..pics too if I have time. If I disappear in a day or too it's because I'm helping some folks get ready for a sniper match in KY and myself included. Have to load for two rifles and check zeros and all that fun stuff and train a bit. When I return I will again answer whatever questions you guys have that I'm capable of helping you with.

 

[memilanuk]

Re: Achieving Accurate Long Range Bullet Flight

Tom,

I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on things like meplat uniforming, pointing, sorting by bearing surface, etc. and whether any of the above (in lieu of or in conjunction with a Juenke) help in your opinion.

Monte

 

[jrob300]

Re: Achieving Accurate Long Range Bullet Flight

Read my mind...

BTW, Thanks Tom for taking all this time to brain dump on us. Some may not appreciate it, but many will benefit and I am grateful.

John

 

[sandwarrior]

Re: Achieving Accurate Long Range Bullet Flight


Tom,

Thank you as well! This has been an enjoyable read.

 

[999yards]

Re: Achieving Accurate Long Range Bullet Flight

This post got me thinking about stuff I haven't thought about in while. As far as seaters go I don't see how anyone would argue that a custom made inline is not the very best.

A couple of questions I still have about run out are:

1. Is .001 or less run out only effective when seating a bullet well into the lands? If not, how can that runout be maintained during the bullets entry into the lands, especially in a case that is not full?

2. Reference a match chamber, wouldn't the runout be reduced to the deminsion dictated by the lead angle, which I thought was about .0005 clearance on each side of the bullet?

If lead angle demensions are the answer to question #1 then a loaded round in a match chamber should have virtualy no runout.

Where has my logic or misunderstanding failed me?

 

[427Cobra]

Re: Achieving Accurate Long Range Bullet Flight

Mr Sarver thank you for sharing with us, here you are a World Record Holder sharing your knowledge and techniques so others may learn, in another thread a nobody was bragging about a secret car wax he applied to his bullets and case necks made his long-range groups shrink, but he won't tell what his secret wax is, then we have you Sir sharing, again thank you.

I do have one question about your dies, you said you use the same reamer that chambered the rifle with to make your dies, I have always read that was a no go, and since 99.9% of us don't have the reamer that chambered our rifle with could you recommend a custom die maker for us please.

Oh and one more question, you said you separate rounds by seating force, I have a K&M arbor press with there seating force attachment, I was wondering how you measure seating force with your set up, I have noticed better groups when all the rounds are grouped together with the same seating force, but not 1/4moa v 1/2moa

 

[shootist2004]

Re: Achieving Accurate Long Range Bullet Flight

Why dont you write a reloading book?
(with pictures please)

 

[jrob300]

Re: Achieving Accurate Long Range Bullet Flight

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shootist2004</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why dont you write a reloading book?
(with pictures please) </div></div>

Yeah, with all your spare time and whatnot??

John

 

[aaronraby1]

Re: Achieving Accurate Long Range Bullet Flight

great info! i learn something new everytime i come on here!

 

[sniperaviator]

Re: Achieving Accurate Long Range Bullet Flight

Just putting in a note so I can see how all this ends up.

I'm no where near this guy's level of precision. Wilson dies are pretty good (I have some). This guy can improve on that? That is impressive.

If you put in juenke in google and go to images, there are some images of this Juenke machine. And in fact here is the makers website:
http://www.theaccuracyden.com/index.htm

 

[Tom Sarver]

Re: Achieving Accurate Long Range Bullet Flight

Sorry guys I've been out for a while my father passed away and well it was very hard to deal with. I'm getting back in the swing of things and I'm finishing up some quotes for builds and rebarrels. Hope to be caught up here soon.
I would love to share my methods and I keep no secrets. If I can help someone shoot better by listing to my rambling then great. I get paid for it all the time so a little help for free is just something I enjoy doing..for years now lol. I just wish I had more time.
I was working on some pics and etc. when I heard the news about my Dad. I will try and get some info up here asap. have some customers thinking I forgot about them so I HAVE to take care of them first. I will spend the next couple of evenings (nite) trying to get caught here.
We make lots of custom dies with SHARP reamers that work wonders for reloading. Our turn around time is about 30 days and in. I dont use a PSI gauge I seat by feel when loading seriously and it works great. Just lots of practice and it does make a difference in groups and shot placement at loooong range.
.30 cals. like more tension from my experience but not enough to leave a ring on the bullet ogive..and you want neck tension on tactical rifles if your a pro.
Pointing bullets works but I have a method most of you would laugh your ass off if I told you. All in all meplat trimming hurts yor BC if not done correctly. There is a better way but it's very time consuming and I owe a couple records to it. This I will share and my thoughts as to why it works. Promise not to laugh when I do..but it adds 1-2 moa at and makes bullets spoon at 1000 yards. I will post pictures of some of these groups for you to see.
As for the book I am working on that too..it's been a 3 year project and it may take 1 or 2 more to complete. there is a lot to cover and it will be very easy to understand. My reasons for doing what I did to achieve my goals will all be covered.
I am very blessed to have hundreds if not thousands of folks who trust and respect my methods and opinions when it comes to shooting and reloading and hunting..and a few who would love to see me burn at the stake..lol. But I will keep chuggging along as long as there are people who can use the help. I own a shooting range for several reasons, some selfish and some for the soal purpose of helping others share the dreams I've made come true, and friends..in the end that's all that really matters.

 

[Tom Sarver]

Re: Achieving Accurate Long Range Bullet Flight

Run out answers to question #1. Yes, good bullet/load runout will stay more true if seated into the lands which helps launch the bullets straight..even straighter if touching the lands but not jammed HARD. Bergers 210 is a great example. With the ass being heavy it only makes sense to try and steer it straight..not to give the base a chance to pass the point by??? Perfect runout will always help accuracy to some extent even though bullet is not touching the lands. I feel the FULL case theory means nothing to me with the Hulk. Some cases or loads maybe, but I've never seen the difference.

2. If you have true zero run out and a TRUE chamber and straight barrel and your bullet is touching 5-15 thou inside lands your rifle is always going to out shoot the guy next to you if you do your job. Custom lead designs on reamers help but can't always guarantee success. Guys, this is where Juenkes help, the inside of the core of the bullet HAS to be the same has the other..INSIDE. Bullets stretch hard upon launch and not all the same everytime, unless they are made up the exactly the same way inside. Exterior uniformity helps but it's what's inside that counts. This may seem far fetched but I think I proved it in my rifle a couple times. You can have perfect everything but if the bullet isn't EXACTLY like the one before of after it's not going to shoot inside 2"-3" at 1000...consistantly. This is advanced loading and MOST shooters wont be able to tell the difference without someone showing them what they are doing wrong or equally right from A-Z. Believe me you can drive yourself nuts and wear out some barrels and burn lots of powder and bullets trying to figure it out.
Our reloading and shooting classes have helped shooters from 20 to 78 years of age. Shooters who have been shooting and loading since I was pooping green, but most ALL of them learned something and most said more in that day than in 20 or 30 years. And that feels great to hear.

 

[427Cobra]

Re: Achieving Accurate Long Range Bullet Flight

We are all sorry for the loss of your Daddy, God Bless!

 

[sniperaviator]

Re: Achieving Accurate Long Range Bullet Flight

I've often thought someone should sell, not just a rifle with some low MOA "guarantee", but a rifle, dies, load info and perhaps even a press and instruction (both loading and shooting). And if it's a barrel burner, a reamer as well. The WORKS.

 

[Tom Sarver]

Re: Achieving Accurate Long Range Bullet Flight

Sir,

that is exactly what we do here a TVP. We just don't build a customer a $4000 rifle and hand it to them and say here ya' go..enjoy. We provide all the services necessary so the customer gets the most out of his rig in the first few HOURS not days or weeks, which saves lots of time and $$$$$ fro the customer. Our new website will have TVP customer testimonials about their experience with us and their TVP rifles. Your views are very much appreciated, we want to hear want the customer wants. Fortunantly, for years I myself was a customer and often thought wow, this sure would be nice...so after years of evolution this is what I decided to provide to our customers. Thanks for your input.

 

[Headgear]

Re: Achieving Accurate Long Range Bullet Flight

Tom,

I know how busy you are tending to your customers, your passion for shooting and sharing your expeince with others but doing all of that plus dealing with the loss of your father and still finding the time to give freely to others speaks volumes of the type of man you are. God Bless!

I spoke to you on he phone about a month ago about coming up for some training and I just about had everything set and then I read this thread. I bought 500 Lapua brass and was going to load up the rounds to bring up with me for the training. Now I have to wait for a couple more weeks until my new arbor press and dies come in before I load those rounds. For the time being I could only spend enough for the Wilson dies but I'm betting it will be a step above the Forster stuff I have been loading. Although I am sure that I am a much weaker link than my equipment. Hopefully you can help me with that as well.

I thought that it would be real interesting to see how my rounds did turn out with both the new arbor set-up and the forster. I called Vern to see How much his Internal Concentricity Comparator would be. I spoke to his wife and she told me that he had retired and he is no longer making them and that no one else would be making them. Is there anyting that compares to his machine or is having the luck to find a used one all that I could hope for?

I'm new and I really have a lot of work to do on my form but knowing that my loads were as good as I can get them would at least take some question out of the equation.

Thanks for your time. I'll be in touch soon to get on your schedule.

David

 

[Tom Sarver]

Re: Achieving Accurate Long Range Bullet Flight

Juenke machines can be found if you do a search. I've had a couple shooters inform me that they had aquired a unit. I will be putting a call into "The Man" and see if I can get a special run of machines made but they will cost us if he takes it on.
For the time it takes and the parts there's not much profit in them. Just not that large of a demand, but I will see what I can do and keep you posted. Heck..even Jordon came out of retirement right?

 

[Trevor]

Re: Achieving Accurate Long Range Bullet Flight

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tom Sarver</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Our reloading and shooting classes have helped shooters from 20 to 78 years of age. Shooters who have been shooting and loading since I was pooping green, but most ALL of them learned something and most said more in that day than in 20 or 30 years. And that feels great to hear. </div></div>



Hi Tom

I am sorry to hear about your loss.
I found this thread very informative and have referred to it on several occassions.
As I am always looking to better my reloading methods could you expand on your reloading classes.

Thanks
Trevor

 

[Jeffvn]

Re: Achieving Accurate Long Range Bullet Flight

Tom

You can tell him that I'll take one. I look for ward to seeing you next week at SHOT. take care.

JeffVN

 

[steve123]

Re: Achieving Accurate Long Range Bullet Flight

Tom,

Sorry to hear about your dad

Thanks for all the good reloading tips!Looking forward to more

 

[Leaddog]

Re: Achieving Accurate Long Range Bullet Flight

I am an F T/R competitor. I use a Rock Chucker Press and Redding S Bushing Dies. My runout as measured on the case, neck, and bullet ogive of my loaded rounds are always less than .0003. That's less than one third of one thousandth. SD's run in the single digits (7 or 8) measured by an Oehler 35. I full size my Lapua Brass everytime. Bullets are the Berger 185 BTLR. I only sort my bullets by weight and then bearing surface. I like my procedures, but like Tom, there is always more in that chase for accuracy. The Juenke sounds interesting.

My rifle is a Clay Spencer 26" 10 twist .308 bedded into a McMillan A5 stock. Glass is the NF 12-42x56 with NP-R1 reticle. This is one fine shooting .308.

 

[SPAK]

Re: Achieving Accurate Long Range Bullet Flight

What kind of tolerance do you guys hold when weighing your bullets?? .1-.2 grains or less?? What do you base your decision on?

 

[bohem]

Re: Achieving Accurate Long Range Bullet Flight

If you're chasing BR world record class groups then weight sorting, bearing surface length sorting, trimming, tipping, Juenke sorting is all what shaves the thousandths off the groups.

If you're shooting 2MOA+ plates at 1k and shorter distances then all of the above is mostly wasting time and particularly money/components that would otherwise be well spent on trigger time and training to read wind, estimate distance, drive the rifle, etc.

Tom has taken a lot of time to describe what is needed to eek out the last gram of repeatability from the loads and I think it shows all of us who aren't exposed to this what the top level in the world are doing.

For the guys shooting tactical competitions inside 1k or even 1200yd from things like 243, 260, 308, 30-06, 6.5 CM, etc. then until you're consistently shooting groups that make 1 indistinct bullet splash on a plate and your 1st shot hit rate is 90%+ at those distances, my feeling is that going through this kind of work is a misallocation of time that would be better spent at the line, behind the rifle or out shooting with the master shooters like Tom, Mr. Tooley, Lowlight, etc.

If you want to see how much variation is caused by a 1% difference in bullet weight, a very close approximate is:

Nominal weight/average velocity = individual weight/predicted velocity.

Solve for predicted velocity and you'll notice that it's a linear relationship. 1% difference bullet weight to 1% difference in MV.

A 200gr 30cal bullet can vary by 2grains to get a 1% difference in MV then. Based on this mathematical reality, figuring out what the bounds on that sorting window is not too difficult.

This is akin to the determination of what confidence interval you "need" to hunt deer at 100yd, or shoot 1k F class, or shoot 1k world level bench rest... or as most of us are doing, 1k and shorter UKD, relatively large size targets in a hit/miss fashion.

I wouldn't dream of running "seconds" through my rifle for a record competition but for tactical matches shooting several MOA sized targets at distances of 1200 and less, I shot a lot of them and they are not the weak link in the chain, my shooting ability is.

 

[Leaddog]

Re: Achieving Accurate Long Range Bullet Flight

Good post Bohem. Besides shooting F Class, I do shoot alot of unknown distance targets to 1000yds. Mostly on 1 minute plates. It's fun and I enjoy it. Obviously, the level of reloading attention is not as necessary as my F T/R matches. For this type of shooting, I don't sort anything. I use 175 SMK's for this.

A agree with you. Most folks would benefit more by spending their time behind the trigger (including alot of dryfire), than at the reloading bench. If you can't read the wind (and mirage) with an accuracy of 98% or better everytime, then one needs to seek out a competent instructor to work with to help make it happen.

 

[jrob300]

Re: Achieving Accurate Long Range Bullet Flight

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I host a match that recently had 92 shooters and one event required those shooters to hit a 1 MOA target from 400 to 100 yards with 4 shots in a row at each range and only 3 people... ...did it. </div></div>

There IS some Tactical stuff out there that will demand your A game and then a little. I wonder how many of us (shooter, rifle, load, etc.) are capable of this.

John

 

[bohem]

Re: Achieving Accurate Long Range Bullet Flight

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jrob300</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I host a match that recently had 92 shooters and one event required those shooters to hit a 1 MOA target from 400 to 100 yards with 4 shots in a row at each range and only 3 people... ...did it. </div></div>

There IS some Tactical stuff out there that will demand your A game and then a little. I wonder how many of us (shooter, rifle, load, etc.) are capable of this.

John </div></div>

I put together a COF that included a stage that I dubbed "Walk the Range"

The targets were 2 MOA or less for all targets and you got 1 round to engage at each range (known distance)

200, 300, 400, 500, 600, 600 (different plate), 500, 400, 300, 200.

Not a single shooter out of over 40 cleaned it, including me... and I'd shot it the day before to practice the course and set a "par".