Hey guys, I've been lurking around for a little while, and figured I would ask this after trying the search and coming up empty. I have been a hunter my whole life, but haven't gotten into longer ranges until recently. I have a Savage '06 that I would like to try and make a good long range rifle. My question is, what makes a precision rifle? Is it the action or the barrel? I hear everyone saying have a 'smith work on the action...what is he doing to it? My thinking is, if you have a crap barrel, you're not doing much anyhow, since that is the last point of contact for the bullet. I'm sure my factory action is good, and the barrel has less than 200 rounds through it, so it should still be good. Should I concentrate on what I have, and see what I got first, or do you guys recommend getting a new barrel that is cut to a certain twist rate or what? FWIW when I was about 15, I got a stock from Richards Micro-fit, finished it and that is where it is now. I am sure that the general concensus will be to bed that stock since I haven't already. Actually, I think that is where I should start, is by getting a stock worth a shit?
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Action or Barrel?
- Thread starter flounderpounder
- Start date
Re: Action or Barrel?
bedding your current set up is not a bad idea. The most important aspect to long range shooting however is having handloaded consistant ammo custom tailored for your rifle. If you don't handload I suggest you start there and work on the other things later.
To answer your question about the action or barrel bit I will tell you that every aspect you improve on your rifle will get you more and more out of your handloads. The more variables that you remove from the equation the more consistant your groups will be.
If you were to assign a importance value to each I would say that in "most cases" the brake down will go like this.
1 ammo
2 bedding
3 barrel
4 action
5 trigger
Of coarse you will need good optics and practice!
bedding your current set up is not a bad idea. The most important aspect to long range shooting however is having handloaded consistant ammo custom tailored for your rifle. If you don't handload I suggest you start there and work on the other things later.
To answer your question about the action or barrel bit I will tell you that every aspect you improve on your rifle will get you more and more out of your handloads. The more variables that you remove from the equation the more consistant your groups will be.
If you were to assign a importance value to each I would say that in "most cases" the brake down will go like this.
1 ammo
2 bedding
3 barrel
4 action
5 trigger
Of coarse you will need good optics and practice!
Re: Action or Barrel?
Concentricity plays a big part in accuracy. Meaning that a barrel and action need to be square for a perfect match. So this way the bullet starts off straight. Squaring one without he one isn't really fixing he problem. I'd shoot what you have till it don't shoot anymore then look to a smith like Roscoe to true it up and put a good barrel on it. +1 on handloading...it's a must...
Concentricity plays a big part in accuracy. Meaning that a barrel and action need to be square for a perfect match. So this way the bullet starts off straight. Squaring one without he one isn't really fixing he problem. I'd shoot what you have till it don't shoot anymore then look to a smith like Roscoe to true it up and put a good barrel on it. +1 on handloading...it's a must...
Re: Action or Barrel?
Thanks guys. Like I said, I'm new to this whole thing. I'm transitioning from the guy who goes to Walmart and gets a box of 20 shells, kills a few deer or pigs or whatever and be done; to the guy trying to maximize his capabilities and attempt to shoot as well as his rifle will allow. A few years back, I bought a LEE anniversary kit, (amateur I know) I have yet to load the first round of anything. I initially bought .223 dies, but have since bought the '06 dies. I am sure there is more to it than reading a manual and inserting the recommended charge. I know a few people that do reload, I am going to get with them to see what they can offer, as well as check the reloading section here.
Thanks guys. Like I said, I'm new to this whole thing. I'm transitioning from the guy who goes to Walmart and gets a box of 20 shells, kills a few deer or pigs or whatever and be done; to the guy trying to maximize his capabilities and attempt to shoot as well as his rifle will allow. A few years back, I bought a LEE anniversary kit, (amateur I know) I have yet to load the first round of anything. I initially bought .223 dies, but have since bought the '06 dies. I am sure there is more to it than reading a manual and inserting the recommended charge. I know a few people that do reload, I am going to get with them to see what they can offer, as well as check the reloading section here.
Re: Action or Barrel?
Most savages will shoot exceptional groups with good hand loads. Bedding the action, properly torquing the action screws and running hand loads will help you a lot.
The Savages are much more tolerant of "slop" in the tenon joint region because of the floating bolt head design. What has been mentioned about concentricity is certainly true, but the Savage will tolerate the "out of true" conditions more than a solid bolt like the Mausers, Rem 7xx, and Winchesters will.
Most savages will shoot exceptional groups with good hand loads. Bedding the action, properly torquing the action screws and running hand loads will help you a lot.
The Savages are much more tolerant of "slop" in the tenon joint region because of the floating bolt head design. What has been mentioned about concentricity is certainly true, but the Savage will tolerate the "out of true" conditions more than a solid bolt like the Mausers, Rem 7xx, and Winchesters will.
Re: Action or Barrel?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">what makes a precision rifle? Is it the action or the barrel?</div></div>
I'd list a third option.........the shooter.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Should I concentrate on what I have, and see what I got first</div></div>
That would be my vote, spend the money on ammo down range until the barrel is shot out, then go from there
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">what makes a precision rifle? Is it the action or the barrel?</div></div>
I'd list a third option.........the shooter.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Should I concentrate on what I have, and see what I got first</div></div>
That would be my vote, spend the money on ammo down range until the barrel is shot out, then go from there
Re: Action or Barrel?
Before you start bedding, rebarreling, and truing what kind of groups does it shoot now? F'ers on the hide will spend your money. Give em a low price range and they will talk you into taking out that 2nd mortgage by the end of the post. I think if the rifle is shooting ok leave it alone. Put good adjustable optics on it and practice, see what it will do. Dust off your reloading shit and have fun.
Is this a sporter type rifle and what optics are on it? Let us know what you’re working with.
Before you start bedding, rebarreling, and truing what kind of groups does it shoot now? F'ers on the hide will spend your money. Give em a low price range and they will talk you into taking out that 2nd mortgage by the end of the post. I think if the rifle is shooting ok leave it alone. Put good adjustable optics on it and practice, see what it will do. Dust off your reloading shit and have fun.
Is this a sporter type rifle and what optics are on it? Let us know what you’re working with.
Re: Action or Barrel?
Well, it's a Savage 116, more of a sporter rifle. It currently has a Zeiss Conquest 4.5-14x56 on it, with a plain crosshair reticle. As far as groups go, I don't meet the criteria for posting pics since I was taught growing up to shoot 3, and adjust if needed, but last time I took it out before last hunting season, I could consistently shoot a penny at 100 yards, and that is with crap Winchester 150 grain silver tip bullets
.
When I get home from work, I will post pics of my setup if needed. Again, thanks for the help guys, I'm sure you guys are tired of helping newbs like me, but without the help of knowledgeable individuals like you, the sport of lr shooting would suffer.
Well, it's a Savage 116, more of a sporter rifle. It currently has a Zeiss Conquest 4.5-14x56 on it, with a plain crosshair reticle. As far as groups go, I don't meet the criteria for posting pics since I was taught growing up to shoot 3, and adjust if needed, but last time I took it out before last hunting season, I could consistently shoot a penny at 100 yards, and that is with crap Winchester 150 grain silver tip bullets
When I get home from work, I will post pics of my setup if needed. Again, thanks for the help guys, I'm sure you guys are tired of helping newbs like me, but without the help of knowledgeable individuals like you, the sport of lr shooting would suffer.
Re: Action or Barrel?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Matthew Lundy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">bedding your current set up is not a bad idea. The most important aspect to long range shooting however is having handloaded consistant ammo custom tailored for your rifle. If you don't handload I suggest you start there and work on the other things later.
To answer your question about the action or barrel bit I will tell you that every aspect you improve on your rifle will get you more and more out of your handloads. The more variables that you remove from the equation the more consistant your groups will be.
If you were to assign a importance value to each I would say that in "most cases" the brake down will go like this.
1 ammo
2 bedding
3 barrel
4 action
5 trigger
Of coarse you will need good optics and practice! </div></div>
personally i would move trigger up the list a little because it deals with the biggest variable in to rifle, the shooter.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Matthew Lundy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">bedding your current set up is not a bad idea. The most important aspect to long range shooting however is having handloaded consistant ammo custom tailored for your rifle. If you don't handload I suggest you start there and work on the other things later.
To answer your question about the action or barrel bit I will tell you that every aspect you improve on your rifle will get you more and more out of your handloads. The more variables that you remove from the equation the more consistant your groups will be.
If you were to assign a importance value to each I would say that in "most cases" the brake down will go like this.
1 ammo
2 bedding
3 barrel
4 action
5 trigger
Of coarse you will need good optics and practice! </div></div>
personally i would move trigger up the list a little because it deals with the biggest variable in to rifle, the shooter.
Re: Action or Barrel?
A penny is .75”. Your bullet is .308". Multiple shots inside the penny is under .5" ctc. IMO that’s good as is. The first two items on Matthew Lundy’s list above aren’t comparatively expensive (and I’d move his trigger #5 up to #2 or 3 considering cost). If you want to try and squeeze some more out of it I’d get some help with the reloading equip you have and see where it goes from there.
A penny is .75”. Your bullet is .308". Multiple shots inside the penny is under .5" ctc. IMO that’s good as is. The first two items on Matthew Lundy’s list above aren’t comparatively expensive (and I’d move his trigger #5 up to #2 or 3 considering cost). If you want to try and squeeze some more out of it I’d get some help with the reloading equip you have and see where it goes from there.
Re: Action or Barrel?
In my experience accuracy of a system in a vacuum is mostly in the barrel. If there is any major problem with the action or bedding it can take away from the accuracy but it will never exceed the accuracy potential of the barrel.
Savage has a good floating bolt head design which takes a lot of the action's tolerances out of the accuracy equation. Also they make a very good factory barrel, so their guns tend to be plenty accurate out of the box. Accuracy problems with Savage rifles usually boil down to the shooter, or the stock. The accu-trigger takes some of the shooter out of it, so the weakest link is the stock.
Savage tupperware is very flexible, which helps take the bedding out of the accuracy equation a little bit too. IF the stock will flex when the rifle action asks it to, then they aren't fighting each other and the rifle tends to shoot okay. It won't shoot as well as it will in a rigid and well bedded stock though, but you won't get the weird "half-my-recoil-lug-is-freefloated" type problems you can get with a poorly bedded rigid stock.
If your barrel is shooting inside a penny, I'd say shoot it until its wore out. If you want to upgrade the rifle, look at buying a Stockade stock for it and make sure your optics and mounts are up to the task of consistently making accurate adjustments for long ranges.
In my experience accuracy of a system in a vacuum is mostly in the barrel. If there is any major problem with the action or bedding it can take away from the accuracy but it will never exceed the accuracy potential of the barrel.
Savage has a good floating bolt head design which takes a lot of the action's tolerances out of the accuracy equation. Also they make a very good factory barrel, so their guns tend to be plenty accurate out of the box. Accuracy problems with Savage rifles usually boil down to the shooter, or the stock. The accu-trigger takes some of the shooter out of it, so the weakest link is the stock.
Savage tupperware is very flexible, which helps take the bedding out of the accuracy equation a little bit too. IF the stock will flex when the rifle action asks it to, then they aren't fighting each other and the rifle tends to shoot okay. It won't shoot as well as it will in a rigid and well bedded stock though, but you won't get the weird "half-my-recoil-lug-is-freefloated" type problems you can get with a poorly bedded rigid stock.
If your barrel is shooting inside a penny, I'd say shoot it until its wore out. If you want to upgrade the rifle, look at buying a Stockade stock for it and make sure your optics and mounts are up to the task of consistently making accurate adjustments for long ranges.
Re: Action or Barrel?
If it's a sporter barrel you might consider investing in something with a little heavier profile. Those pencil thin jobs heat up so fast it's hard to get much practice in.
If it's a sporter barrel you might consider investing in something with a little heavier profile. Those pencil thin jobs heat up so fast it's hard to get much practice in.
Re: Action or Barrel?
I won't say the Savage action doesn't need trueing, but when building three Savage F Class guns back in 2002, our builder mic'd the actions and commented that trueing probably would <span style="font-style: italic">not</span> make a lot of difference, between the Savage's canny design and the close adherance the factory rifles held to ideal specs.
The Savage action responds well to bedding, but there's no benefit and maybe some penalty to bedding anything rearward of the rear action screw. In other words, it works best when the rear tang floats.
Quality barrels are widely available for the Savage, and unlike most other actions, can be user-replaced or user-installed without the need for any machining.
If you intend replacing a barrel, pay attention to the stock's barrel groove dimensions. Barrel tapers can make a change to a heavier barrel profile an issue there. The Savage Varmint Taper is available from many barrel makers, and is compatible with many aftermarket stocks as well.
Load development and Savage barrel changing are well covered on this site, just look around and maybe try the search feature.
Savage makes their own barrels, and for the purposes they serve, they are good ones; although the bores can be a bit rough and take some time to settle down and back off from the initial heavier copper fouling. I would keep my .30-'06 barrel and do some load development; using the barrel as a training tool, to be replaced with a better one once the bore goes and the skills warrant a better one. You can then switch to a .260 Rem chambered barrel, enjoy some powder consuption economy, reduce the recoil, yet see essentailly identical ballistic performance. The bolt face diameter is teh same, and for the most part, pretty much everything else will still work fine (mag feeding may or may not get a little fluky).
And for goodness sakes, do the bulk of your practice and training with a simple, reliable, realtively inexpensive .22LR. Centerfire bore life is a perishable commodity. I would suggest you never do anything with a Centerfire that you could easily accomplish with a Rimfire. "Save the Bores!".
Greg
I won't say the Savage action doesn't need trueing, but when building three Savage F Class guns back in 2002, our builder mic'd the actions and commented that trueing probably would <span style="font-style: italic">not</span> make a lot of difference, between the Savage's canny design and the close adherance the factory rifles held to ideal specs.
The Savage action responds well to bedding, but there's no benefit and maybe some penalty to bedding anything rearward of the rear action screw. In other words, it works best when the rear tang floats.
Quality barrels are widely available for the Savage, and unlike most other actions, can be user-replaced or user-installed without the need for any machining.
If you intend replacing a barrel, pay attention to the stock's barrel groove dimensions. Barrel tapers can make a change to a heavier barrel profile an issue there. The Savage Varmint Taper is available from many barrel makers, and is compatible with many aftermarket stocks as well.
Load development and Savage barrel changing are well covered on this site, just look around and maybe try the search feature.
Savage makes their own barrels, and for the purposes they serve, they are good ones; although the bores can be a bit rough and take some time to settle down and back off from the initial heavier copper fouling. I would keep my .30-'06 barrel and do some load development; using the barrel as a training tool, to be replaced with a better one once the bore goes and the skills warrant a better one. You can then switch to a .260 Rem chambered barrel, enjoy some powder consuption economy, reduce the recoil, yet see essentailly identical ballistic performance. The bolt face diameter is teh same, and for the most part, pretty much everything else will still work fine (mag feeding may or may not get a little fluky).
And for goodness sakes, do the bulk of your practice and training with a simple, reliable, realtively inexpensive .22LR. Centerfire bore life is a perishable commodity. I would suggest you never do anything with a Centerfire that you could easily accomplish with a Rimfire. "Save the Bores!".
Greg
Re: Action or Barrel?
I was going to replace my factory trigger (pre accutrigger) anyhow. It was a little stiff (~8lbs) when I got it, and after some homemade gunsmithing, I got it down to about 5lbs. I am considering either the Rifle Basix 1-3lb trigger, or the JARD 1lb trigger. Are these even worth a second look or should I find something else?
I was going to replace my factory trigger (pre accutrigger) anyhow. It was a little stiff (~8lbs) when I got it, and after some homemade gunsmithing, I got it down to about 5lbs. I am considering either the Rifle Basix 1-3lb trigger, or the JARD 1lb trigger. Are these even worth a second look or should I find something else?
Re: Action or Barrel?
I've made do with the Sharpshooter Supply adjustable, exactly the same as Savage was installing in the interim while they were bringing the Accue-Trigger up to production speed. Good trigger. There are some tricks for tweaking the original Savage trigger, but they aren't especially reliable/safe, so I'm gonna stay mum about the hows.
Greg
I've made do with the Sharpshooter Supply adjustable, exactly the same as Savage was installing in the interim while they were bringing the Accue-Trigger up to production speed. Good trigger. There are some tricks for tweaking the original Savage trigger, but they aren't especially reliable/safe, so I'm gonna stay mum about the hows.
Greg
Re: Action or Barrel?
Okay, before I bed my rifle. There is a lot of talk here about Devcon and Marine-tex. When looking for bedding compounds, I run across steel bed and glass bed as well. This will be on a walnut stock if it matters. My thinking is, glass shatters and steel rusts. I know that doesn't really come into play here. So what are pro's/con's for the different bed materials and why do so many choose Devcon or Marine-tex?
Okay, before I bed my rifle. There is a lot of talk here about Devcon and Marine-tex. When looking for bedding compounds, I run across steel bed and glass bed as well. This will be on a walnut stock if it matters. My thinking is, glass shatters and steel rusts. I know that doesn't really come into play here. So what are pro's/con's for the different bed materials and why do so many choose Devcon or Marine-tex?
Re: Action or Barrel?
With a wooden stock, the potential difficulties arise more from the wood and the effects of humidity/moisture; and not so much from the choice of bedding resin. Steel bedding and glass bedding are not steel or glass, they are functionally a catalyzed polyester and/or epoxy resin. The steel is a finely granulated metallic supplement additive to the steel bed. The glass is the cloth that 'fiberglass' polyester resin impregnates; and that cloth is seldom used in 'glass'beddig.
Greg
With a wooden stock, the potential difficulties arise more from the wood and the effects of humidity/moisture; and not so much from the choice of bedding resin. Steel bedding and glass bedding are not steel or glass, they are functionally a catalyzed polyester and/or epoxy resin. The steel is a finely granulated metallic supplement additive to the steel bed. The glass is the cloth that 'fiberglass' polyester resin impregnates; and that cloth is seldom used in 'glass'beddig.
Greg
