Gunsmithing Action screw torque...

oneshot onekill

Gunny Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Jul 29, 2008
1,955
15
61
DeBary, Florida
I did a search and found a lot on this subject but only "surface stuff" like specs and warnings so here's my question... And I'm actually looking for the physics behind it:

How can the torque on the action screws affect accuracy?

Here's why I ask... In looking at the action in relation to the barrel, how it's made and what it's made of, I don't see how the 2 little screws that hold it in the stock could possibly change the shape or position of the action. And even if they did, the bullet literally rests only in the barrel portion of the rifle and the only part of the "action" that touches it is the bolt and bolt-face. Correct? And that is forced into position by the twisting of the bolt lugs which are slightly angled and actually do lock.

The reason I'm curious is because I've never used a torque wrench to tighten action screws and have never had accuracy suffer because of it. I've tightened action screws to the point that they touch the bolt in the front or block it in the back and just loosened them up a little to correct it.

Have I just been fortunate or lucky? Or could it be that the torque spec for action screws is just a spec that the manufacturers came up with in the interest of uniformity in manufacturing and actually has no bearing on accuracy?... You tell Me... I'm just tryin' to gain some insight and knowledge here.



 
Re: Action screw torque...

I can answer this one (ooh goody)

Guard screw torque is important. In fact its very important. The how's and why's are dependent upon a few things.

An action fitted to either a (properly) pillar bedded stock or one with a metal insert of some kind likely won't see as much of a difference as one in a plain ol wood stock.

<span style="font-style: italic">-Edit in response to later question: What I'm getting at is a squishy wood stock is going to likely see more influence from playing with different torque values than a rifle that's pillar bedded properly or one that uses some sort of action block or V wedge system. The squishy stock is going to respond to it more because the stock material is compressing slightly, be it in the inletting for the action or for the bottom metal/escutcheons.</span>

I know from experience testing international smallbore guns at the US Olympic Training center in Colo Springs that guard screw torque can and does greatly influence the downrange on paper performance. Groups can be reduced significantly with a little experimentation.

That does not mean its going to directly correlate to a centerfire. One needs to appreciate that a 22RF bullet is in a barrel almost 3 times longer than a CF. Lots more time for chit to happen.

Another facet to this is that in a CF application it may not be so much as an accuracy/tuning/enhancement variable as it is one more little step towards achieving consistent/repeatable accuracy and point of impact. Zero shifts can be frustrating to track down. A consistent guard torque helps mitigate this.

The torque of the screw depends largely upon the material the fastener is made of and the thread pitch used. I have a friend who introduced me to a man who makes a good living designing/building fasteners for the aerospace industry. A conversation with him several years ago lead to a full on laboratory study surrounding the 1/4-28 cap screw made from 416 series stainless.

Essentially what it showed was that with this particular screw made from this material (annealed state) the fastener should not exceed 40lbs inch for torque. This is with no lubricant on the threads as you want the friction coefficient up a bit to mitigate the thing vibrating loose between service intervals.

The tensile loading delivered to the action/screw head at this value is somewhere along 1200lbs of force. I'd have to dig up the journal he wrote to be certain on that figure but I'm fairly confident that's what it was. The formulas and strain gauges used in the tests were consistent with those used to identify the fatigue and loading capacity of fastener intended for aerospace applications. (airplane nutz n boltz)

There's a long standing argument/wives tale/"ten commandment" that 60lbs is safe, fine, and appropriate to use. I disagree sternly. 60lbs is too much. The fastener will begin to yield over time, the tensile load generated by the fastener will be reduced and the guns will begin to shoot gatherings instead of groups. It's a mathematical certainty. UNLESS it's a heat treated material with a rolled thread. I can tell you that in 12+ years I've never seen a fastener like that used for a rifle's guard screw. I have however seen them thousands of times in NHRA Competition Eliminator engines and other high output/racing engine applications. (ARP Fasteners makes some of the best)

If a rifle is bedded properly there's no reason to use that much torque anyway. This practice has become a product of monkey see/monkey do and there's no factual basis behind it. This includes the Marine Corps M-40's, the Army M-24, and the DDM rifles used by the Dept of State. If it's using a 1/4-28 pitch with either a stainless/carbon steel machined thread guard screw it's a disservice to men using it to advocate 60lbs.

<span style="font-style: italic">-Edit:

Think of how this comes about. "Snug them to 60lbs Sgt." Shooter goes out and blasts through a few hundred rounds only to discover that down the road a bit the gun's zero shifts and then there's this sudden elevation in the shot plots. Back to the armory we go and guess what? Gun comes apart, nothing is wrong and then it's again snugged to 60lbs. One vicious cycle. Each time the scew yields a little and each time it's done over and over. Been there, seen it.</span>

I did the homework on this one, hence the strong/bold statements. It's one of my little missions in life to squash this bug. After seeing guys fight the problem in real life in Iraq it further solidified my resolve. (I was the chief Armorer and firearms instructor the Baghdad Embassy Security Force from 2006-2009 at the US Embassy in Baghdad.)

Hope this helped and great question. One of the better ones to come along in here IMO.

C

 
Re: Action screw torque...

OK... Don't get mad or take this the wrong way. There's some great information in your response... So you're saying it's important, but only on "wood-stocked" rifles that are not bedded or have an aluminum block or .22's and you know this because you have personal experience with them and that 60 inch-pounds is too much. Is that the general crux of the answer? (And I get the part about zero shifts but I don't see the significance of exact and even torque if the screws stay tight)

I read it pretty carefully a few times and that's what my pea-brain gets out of it. Sorry, but that's not helping. Don't take it personally, I'm probably just not getting it but I'm very interested in your thoughts because obviously you've done the research.

 
Re: Action screw torque...

Actually, I should re-word the end of my last post... C. Dixon's answer does help. Makes me think the 65 inch-pounds of torque that is generally accepted as gospel is not necessarily right.

But I guess the bottom line is: If tightening the screws to 65 inch-pounds makes your rifle more accurate, then by all means do it. But don't <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">expect</span></span> it to make a difference
 
Re: Action screw torque...

Overtorque smashes wood stocks. Some (cheap) synthetics also. Pillar bedding protects stocks but doesn't cure twisting actions. The scope is mounted to two points on the receiver, the barrel is an extension of the receiver axis. If you bow the receiver under the scope the bore follows the axis out of the receiver but the scope may not be parallel to it. The stress on the receiver can also react to vibration differently which will affect barrel harmonices. Savage torque spec is 25 inch-pounds for the stock bolts. I've also read that to some extent tightening order will affect accuracy. The accepted method seems to be front screw snug, rear screw snug, torque front torque rear.
 
Re: Action screw torque...

I'm certainly no areospace engineer but the main definition of "torque" will lead you to a "turning or twisting force" as it correctly applies to anything in the world of machinery that turns under power, or applies power to a shaft. Torque by definition is something rotating, receiving power and/or applying power, ultimately generating a "load" upon a system to do "work". A common household use of the word "torque" is in the marketing strategy used to sell you a more powerful pickup truck.

Unfortunate in the world of fasteners is the use of the word "torque" to describe how "tight" a fastener is twisted, as it risks the misconception, or misrepresentation, of what is being measured. Most would assume that the fastener, or base components, are actually being taken out of shape to some measured degree in relation to the value of "torque" being applied. That certainly can and does happen in the extreme as seen by anyone who twists off a fastener; or "pulls out the threads" by over tightening it; or has a fastener break later due to over stretching it. However that scenario is why we have recommended "torque" values for any given fastener; to greatly diminish, or prevent such occurance as going beyond the designed limits of the fastener itself. If a fastener is tightened between the recommended specifications of a high/low, or no more than a recommended high, then the fastener is in no danger of breaking and the clamping action produced is as required.

A "torque" value on a fastener, as it concerns most things normal and ordinary, is simply a measure of the friction upon the threads. This is why we can experience a discrepancy between a lubricated fastener and a non lubricated one; a dirty fastener, and a clean one. And this is also why we are usually allowed a higher "torque" value being placed on a "fine" thread fastener as opposed to a "course" thread one. A fine thread fastener, such as the 1/4-28 on our M700's, allows for more friction to provide a more stable clamping action than a 1/4-20 would. In essance, the 1/4-28 makes it a stronger connection because we can apply more friction to the device (screw) that provides the clamping action; thus the higher friction attained makes it less likely to loosen by overcoming any forces applied to it that could vibrate or otherwise compromise the connection's integrity.

As this applies to tightening a rifle's action screws it behooves us to completely understand this force of friction as it retains the clamping action, and how/why it's achieved. To that end we must understand such things as what is too little and what is too much, and allow ourselves to fall somewhere in that range. We must realize that a rifle's action does flex out of shape and the amount of tightening on the action screws, in combination with a recoil lug, is designed to overcome this force, to maintain what we all ultimately deem to be "repeatable accuracy". <span style="text-decoration: underline">In a nutshell, properly torquing a rifle's action to a specific amount of tightness is, first, how we achieve a repeatable platform from which to launch a bullet; and second how we avoid the need for any other thread locking system, such as loctite, or lock washers, etc. It relies completely upon the friction of the threads to hold fast the connection, and allows us to remove the connection, easily, when necessary.</span>

Nothing more, nothing less.......

We often argue about the difference between "torque" values without realizing the actual difference between the values we argue. We measure our action screws in inch pounds, which are 1/12 of foot pounds. A close cousin to our M700 action screws is the common socket head cap screw. The common recommended "torque" value for a dry non-lubricated 1/4-28 socket head cap screw is 16 foot pounds, or a whopping 192 inch pounds, far, FAR beyond the values we argue concerning a rifle's action screws. Debating then, between 40 inch pounds, or 50, or even 60, seems rather trivial, at best, regarding what the screw itself can "take" in a clamping load.

Does this mean we all can safely tighten our action screws to 192 inch pounds? Of course not, because other factors come into play that lessen the allowable degree of "torque", such as the integrity of the base components being clamped; things already long ago determined by rifle manufacturer's, and stock makers.

Personally I understand the difference between an increment of 5 or 10 inch pounds, and am fully aware the difference between 40 inch pounds and 60 inch pounds is inconsequential to the platforms I shoot, as it's well within the spectrum of what the system can mechanically "take". I find that 50 in lbs on my short actions, and 55 in lbs on my long actions is where my stress free bedded and pillared actions tend to like to be, per repeatable accuracy.

I don't own occasional shooters or safe queens, I own tools. Never have I found a rifle that for some reason or another didn't require a routine breakdown for preventative maintenance and general cleaning. I've never found that dirt, dust, grit, or other field debris is conducive to the overall good function of an accurate rifle. Just keeping crap out of a rifle's free float, or fire control, requires taking the action out of the stock. Therefore I require an exact repeatable tightening of the actions screws to return the rifle to it's known zero.

The only suggestion to a question of "torque value" that makes any amount of real sense is to abide by the manufacturer's recommended value, and not exceed that, regardless what the www tells us on forums. As long as we do not go beyond the manufacturer's limit we are operating within a range, and hopefully finding a value that best suits our rifle's function. In that context, within those limits, this really is a to-each-his-own situation with no genuinely debateable right or wrong answer.
 
Re: Action screw torque...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C. Dixon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The tensile loading delivered to the action/screw head at this value is somewhere along 1200lbs of force. I'd have to dig up the journal he wrote to be certain on that figure but I'm fairly confident that's what it was. The formulas and strain gauges used in the tests were consistent with those used to identify the fatigue and loading capacity of fastener intended for aerospace applications. (airplane nutz n boltz)
</div></div>

I agree with you completely that 60lbs is way too much tension to place on action screws but taking the 1200lb load you provide to be true and applying it to a 1/4" action screw will fall well under the yield stress for most metals used in rifle actions (3920lbs I calculated for 4140 Chrome Moly in Surgeon Actions, the only metal I could find a stress-strain curve for readily) at which any kind of plastic deformation will occur. My guess would be that it starts to screw with the resonance of the rifle as it's vibrating in the sense that creates some inconsistent and/or localized damping depending on the geometry of the contact areas.
 
Re: Action screw torque...

A lot of great information here. I have an AX chassis coming this week and was wondering what torque I will need to on the action screws. I'm sure that AI provides instructions for it though.
Thanks for the info.
 
Re: Action screw torque...

I got a job in 1984 when an engineering manager got my name off a paper I had written on "Themocyclic Creep". You tighten the screws, heat-cold-heat-cold, and now the screws are loose. The problem exists way below deflection temperature for some plastics.
To prevent this, one can use a belleville washer and/or a better plastic.
 
Re: Action screw torque...

Well I finally got the AX chassis in and I am ready to secure the action to the chassis and damn it wouldn’t you know....6 Nm or a little over 53 in-lbs.

After reading all the in-depth info above I still feel that 53 in-lbs is a little too tight. Even though the "V" block that holds the action is basically a solid hunk of aluminum, you are still using the same Remington (style\thread) action screws to secure the action to the chassis.

Is it possible that tightening the screws this much on a steel fastener into an aluminum block could degrade the threads in the chassis? My thought is that over time it probably could. Especially if you are tightening and loosening often.

Not that I am ready to throw out AI's torque specs, but before I start cranking down on the screws I would really like to hear your thoughts on this.

If I go ahead and torque it to the AI spec there’s really no point in backing the screws out to re-torque to something lighter.

Your thoughts and recommendations are welcome.

Thanks,

Ike
 
Re: Action screw torque...

When I got my new AICS, I torqued the screws to the recommended 53 in-lbs and tested the new stock at the range. After 50rds of .308 (no changes to the load), the front screw became a little loose and was affecting the shot placement. I torqued it down a little more to 60 in-lbs and the shot placement gotten a little better. I then torqued it to 65 in-lbs which is the setting used on the HS-Precision stock prior to switching to the AICS and all shots were back on zero at 100 yard (< 1moa).

I understand each setup is a little different and I would try the recommended torque setting first. 53 in-lbs isn't really that much. As a comparison, my Seekins scope ring clamp screws call for 55 in-lbs.
 
Re: Action screw torque...


JTso,
Thanks. I also went ahead and went with the AI spec of 53 in-lbs. I have only shot 40 rounds so far (prone using a bipod also .308) and everything seems to have stayed nice and snug without using any Loctite. After shooting, I inspected the new setup again and noticed that the front action screw sits a little low in the bolt hole in the receiver (from the inside). There is about 1 or 2 threads left before the end of the screw would be flush with the inside of the receiver. While you obviously do not want the screw to protrude into the receiver, I would imagine that you want as many of the threads making contact as possible.
After another shooting session I will check the torque and if there is any slippage I may increase the torque to 60 in-lbs and see how that works out.
 
Re: Action screw torque...

The only reason you would torque a action screw to 65in lbs is for v bedding blocks. I have talked with H-S and they recommended this for driving the barreled action into the bedding block. The torque will affect accuracy, test it and you will see for yourself. This was all designed to get away from bedding the rifle. Ask a marine sniper what happened when he dropped his M40-a1?

The heavy torque will crush old glass bedding. The pillar bedding system has helped to eliminate this.

Accuracy International AW action is bolted and epoxied to the stock.
 
Re: Action screw torque...

Ok,

So the question is,

1. What is an proper torque setting for action bolts in a non pillar bedded high end stock, ie., mcmillan, manners, hs precision?

2. What is the proper torque for action bolts in same stock that is pillar bedded?
3. what is the proper torque in a v block, type stock, like AI AW, AI AE, manners mini chassis, etc?

Center fire calibers...

Does a washer on the bolt add consistency to the torque being applied?

Does lube, grease on the action bolt do anything to the torque value?