Night Vision Active vs. Passive Aiming

[rlsmith1]

I’ve run lasers for a while and like them but I’m curious about the piggyback RMR.

How much slower is a piggyback RMR if you can use an illuminator (SF Vampire)? Is it feasibly to forego the mounted laser, piggyback a red dot, and run the dot passively put to 100 yds give it take?

For me, the conversation gets interesting when a Voodoo S or RH25 type optic is also introduced…

Or will weapon mounted IR lasers always have a place?

 

[Gasgun]

Feasible? Yes.

As effective as a LAM? Not in my limited experience.

I have an RMR piggybacked on a Geissele 1.93 mount and a T2 in a Unity FAST.

I am way faster and more accurate aiming with the PEQ-15 than I am passively aiming with the RMR or the Micro.

Particularly past 100 yards.

Could be due to a lack of training and trigger time in passive shooting, but I haven’t seen results that would inspire me to pursue it further.

I have a SF Vampire mounted on my helmet. I like it, but the illuminator on the PEQ is superior at distance.

 

[WhereNow&How]

I believe IR lasers (at least for now) will always have a place.

When it is really dark and you need absolute PID, nothing out there currently can really give that in a "real world" scenario when dealing with bad guys vs good guys. Even the best thermal cannot PID (Eg. Face recognition) in a real world scenario.

So until something comes along that can provide the level of PID that laser illuminators can, I guess we are stuck with them.

Or will weapon mounted IR lasers always have a place?

 

[Lowdown3]

Time and a place for both.

Most of my rifles have IR lasers and Lunas on them. Most of my rifles also can be used passively.

I'm a fan of the RMR on top of ACOG. This was the easiest route for us as we have been using ACOGs for years.

All of the RMRs I use, whether on rifles or pistols, are the battery-less kind, so just like the ACOG I can't mess up and forget to change batteries. I've had no issues with the battery less RMR for passive aiming whether pistol or rifle.

 

[rlsmith1]

Feasible? Yes.

As effective as a LAM? Not in my limited experience.

I have an RMR piggybacked on a Geissele 1.93 mount and a T2 in a Unity FAST.

I am way faster and more accurate aiming with the PEQ-15 than I am passively aiming with the RMR or the Micro.

Particularly past 100 yards.

Could be due to a lack of training and trigger time in passive shooting, but I haven’t seen results that would inspire me to pursue it further.

I have a SF Vampire mounted on my helmet. I like it, but the illuminator on the PEQ is superior at distance.

So you’re saying you’re fairly close speed wise within say 50 yds? I’ve run lasers a fair amount but never a passive dot but I’m likely going to add that before long.

At distance, (100 to 300 yds) I’m thinking rather than use a LAM, a small thermal clip on (Voodoo S type) would be a better tool for the job. A good thermal like that also brings a ton of other advantages to the table. I’ve got a NOX18 right now that is wonderful and having something like that in front of my day optic would be fantastic.

I believe IR lasers (at least for now) will always have a place.

When it is really dark and you need absolute PID, nothing out there currently can really give that in a "real world" scenario when dealing with bad guys vs good guys. Even the best thermal cannot PID (Eg. Face recognition) in a real world scenario.

So until something comes along that can provide the level of PID that laser illuminators can, I guess we are stuck with them.

So you’re saying you’d throw an illuminator on something (person, dog / coyote, etc.) to get PID in a given scenario? I understand this if you’ve got some sort of I2 clip on that supports magnification but how does this benefit a PV14 or bino? Maybe you carry a 3x or 5x magnifier? Regardless, if I need PID I’m thinking a SF Vampire would give the illumination needed? Only downside is there wouldn’t be a laser there to engage immediately if needed (big downside). Seems like there’s certain times where any IR signature would be a no go so I’m wondering if the Vampire would cover 90% if needs and allow me to take 7-10oz off the front of the gun (and simplify).

Time and a place for both.

Most of my rifles have IR lasers and Lunas on them. Most of my rifles also can be used passively.

I'm a fan of the RMR on top of ACOG. This was the easiest route for us as we have been using ACOGs for years.

All of the RMRs I use, whether on rifles or pistols, are the battery-less kind, so just like the ACOG I can't mess up and forget to change batteries. I've had no issues with the battery less RMR for passive aiming whether pistol or rifle.

I’m still not 100% sold on the ACOG just because I like the 1-8x so much but still evaluating. Do you find your similar speeds between laser and RMR or is laser definitely faster?

I agree on the battery piece…

 

[GreenMushroom]

It's going to depend a lot on your local conditions. Passive aiming is of limited utility in really dark conditions. Living in those conditions I tend to think of passive and laser as 2 parts of the same aiming system which they are since I zero my laser to my dot.

I often use the dot to get on something i see moving and then hit the laser/illuminator and your right on target. This is particularly effective using coti type devices and dramatically reduces the amount of time you are emitting. It also helps in the brush to have a good picture of what you're illuminating because all the shadows change when you hit the lights and if you're already on your target there's no need for hunting around.

 

[WhereNow&How]

@rlsmith1

So you’re saying you’d throw an illuminator on something (person, dog / coyote, etc.) to get PID in a given scenario? I understand this if you’ve got some sort of I2 clip on that supports magnification but how does this benefit a PV14 or bino?

Many situations are just too dark to get PID with just NV at 25 to 100 yards no matter how great a tube is in the Unit. Therefore you definitely cannot passively make a shot and the only solution is to put IR illumination on the target, whether Laser or LED based. I can get face recognition through a PVS 14 or Bino to about 60 - 70 yards with good Illumination on a person.

Maybe you carry a 3x or 5x magnifier? Regardless, if I need PID I’m thinking a SF Vampire would give the illumination needed?

Indeed I do carry 3x and 5x magnifiers so if I need to PID something at distance I just slip one on and throw some IR Illumination on it and presto I have PID.

Only downside is there wouldn’t be a laser there to engage immediately if needed (big downside). Seems like there’s certain times where any IR signature would be a no go so I’m wondering if the Vampire would cover 90% if needs and allow me to take 7-10oz off the front of the gun (and simplify).

The only scenario where using IR Illumination is a big downside is in a potentially 2 way scenario. So you just use it wisely in that scenario, but when you need IR Illumination and a IR Pointer, hell you need it. No if ands or butts.

Everyone just gets all wrapped up about not using IR Illumination/Pointer cause they gonna give their position away. I ain't scared of someone with NV. The folks with Thermal is what you better really be worried about. In today's environment there is a good bit of Thermal Weapon Mounted Sights out there. Try hiding from that.

So in the 2 way scenario you better be conducting operations such that Thermal don't get you. That's the bigger challenge.

Out to 100 yards a IR Illuminator with IR Pointer gives you much better situational awareness and speed, than using IR Illumination and a Day Optic Sight. Past 100 yards switch to Thermal.

 

[WhereNow&How]

This is particularly effective using coti type devices and dramatically reduces the amount of time you are emitting.

Exactly. In a second or two you pull or don't pull.

Additionally, if OPFOR is running NODS, when you hit them with strong IR Illumination, their NODS are gonna be overwhelmed and washed out so who gives two cents if they know you there at that point. They are BLIND MELLON CHITLIN.

Only hazard is if there is an overwatch outside of the flood of IR Illumination which is a less probable situation in most circumstances.

 

[rlsmith1]

Exactly. In a second or two you pull or don't pull.

Additionally, if OPFOR is running NODS, when you hit them with strong IR Illumination, their NODS are gonna be overwhelmed and washed out so who gives two cents if they know you there at that point. They are BLIND MELLON CHITLIN.

Only hazard is if there is an overwatch outside of the flood of IR Illumination which is a less probable situation in most circumstances.

Hadn’t thought of using an illuminator for offense but that’s a bright idea

 

[rlsmith1]

So now the above has me thinking. LIFs exist, how effective are they and are there any downsides to them?

 

[WhereNow&How]

So now the above has me thinking. LIFs exist, how effective are they and are there any downsides to them?

LIF basically only blocks Green Visible Laser.

Won't help you a bit if someone hits your NODS with a strong 785 nm to 1,000 nm laser.

A Luna ELIR (70 to 90 mW) depending on whether an early or later model is an excellent tool to "fry" the OPFOR NODS.

Dial that sucker in good-n- tight and ruin OPFOR's NODS.

The downside to a LIF is it also slightly blocks some of the photons that your tube needs to form images. Not much but it is noticeable.

NV ain't the thing to worry about. Thermal is.

 

[Conqueror]

I haven’t used one but my understanding is that LIFs only filter green lasers, not IR light, otherwise they would kill your ability to use the NV device in general.

Edit: posted same time as @WhereNow&How

 

[WhereNow&How]

Horta's Dbal A3 50/50/200 is an excellent tool to fry NODS and catch trees on fire.

That MFAL make & model is arguably the best all around featured MFAL out there including these new VCSEL models from EOTEC, Wilcox etc.

 

[rlsmith1]

Yeah thermal (drone) is its own animal to deal with. I would agree with you that it is primary to have and avoid.

So much so, it had me questioning if I even needed an IR onboard anymore but I can see scenarios where it is still useful and worth its weight

 

[BurtG]

So in the 2 way scenario you better be conducting operations such that Thermal don't get you. That's the bigger challenge.

That seems difficult ?

Impossible almost when you count commercial drones let alone mil stiff

 

[WhereNow&How]

That seems difficult ?

Impossible almost when you count commercial drones let alone mil stiff

No it is simple.

Go V8- Kong and dig a deep and extensive underground tunnel system and stay in it.

 

[BurtG]

No it is simple.

Go V8- Kong and dig a deep and extensive underground tunnel system and stay in it.

Simpler than that as shown in the documentary with out of this world advanced thermal fusion

 

[WhereNow&How]

Simpler than that as shown in the documentary with out of this world advanced thermal fusion

View attachment 8007849

I tell you what. You go first with that and report back how it worked out.

 

[Default.mp3]

I haven’t used one but my understanding is that LIFs only filter green lasers, not IR light, otherwise they would kill your ability to use the NV device in general.

Edit: posted same time as @WhereNow&How

LIFs do filter out IR. In fact, that's what they're designed to do.

The key thing to remember is that IR is a broad spectrum: 700nm to 1,000,000nm. LIFs were designed specifically to filter out 1064nm Nd:YAG lasers that were commonly used in various targeting systems by both NATO and ComBloc systems. The green being filtered out is simply a by-product of the fact that 1064nm halved is 532nm, which is green (remember how many older green lasers used frequency doubling to get there?). 1064nm lasers are not some crazy new tech, they've been in military use for a long time, such as in the SOFLAM, LANTIRN, etc. LIFs were used to prevent these lasers from damaging NODs, since 1064nm is normally OoB, and thus a user wouldn't know to look away to prevent laser strikes on the NODs when around these kinds of lasers. It's my understanding that LIFs are good for filtering ~1000nm to ~1120nm in the NIR realm (or SWIR, if you want to consider anything >1000nm SWIR).

I'll also note that I've used passive aiming way more than active aiming when in the shoothouse as OPFOR when the students also have NODs. With the more limited FOV under NODs, there's a lot more opportunities to be able to ambush the students without them ever knowing where they got hit from. It also helps conceal your position better, which is of particular use if there are multiple teams involved. While the pointer will be faster and allow you to do snapshots and engage more easily from unorthodox positions, with the proper passive setup, you can get pretty damn fast (EXPS3 on a Unity Riser for me). Illumination is much less of an issue for me due to the fact that I'm pretty comfortable with the layout of the shoothouse, I'm doing a lot of just holding a corner and popping a quick burst before backing off, along with the fact that the students are have to use illumination quite often themselves.

 

[rlsmith1]

I wanted to revisit this and give a quick update. I ended up selling my LAM and got a piggyback RMR for my PLXc (all that plus a mount still weighs less than the LPVO it replaced). Unfortunately I lost one arm for my MD Armory bridge so I'm back to cyclops with the PVS14 (no one told me a disadvantage of bridging PVS14's was that I could lose an arm! ) Because of this, I haven't run the RMR at night much but I am getting reps in during the day.

To expand on the original conversation, it seems like there are more thermal clip ons coming to market that are better suited for carbines (in addition to what we have for LR rigs).

Do you laser proponents still favor them even though thermals are getting small / light enough to be run on a rifle? I'll likely turn my 14's into a bino at some point too because I do miss that

 

[GreenMushroom]

I don't think Mod Armory sells the arms separately but in the case that you lost one they would probably make an exception. I never had luck emailing them but when I called they were very helpful. I bought a spare arm somewhere else but I don't recall where. Mine are d14s which I'm assuming you're referring to.

 

[WhereNow&How]

Do you laser proponents still favor them even though thermals are getting small / light enough to be run on a rifle? I'll likely turn my 14's into a bino at some point too because I do miss that

There is nothing out there that replaces a MFAL (especially full powah) when it comes to making positive identification of something when it counts before making real world decisions. A strong Illuminator with an IR pointer is an absolute requirement to making PID when it counts.

Regarding individual bridge parts items for replacement. In the past MOD ARMORY has been very good about selling them as needed. Call them and speak with Nicole May. She has been a great person to deal with.

Passive aiming with a day sight under NOD's is a one trick pony with very limited usefulness. Thermal does absolutely rule for shooting critters at night but the downside is absolute PID can be sketchy in many instances and could easily get you in trouble if you are not careful.

The best of both worlds is to have good Thermal and good MFAL on a rig. You good to go then.

 

[TheHorta]

Feasible? Yes.

As effective as a LAM? Not in my limited experience.

I have an RMR piggybacked on a Geissele 1.93 mount and a T2 in a Unity FAST.

I am way faster and more accurate aiming with the PEQ-15 than I am passively aiming with the RMR or the Micro.

Particularly past 100 yards.

Could be due to a lack of training and trigger time in passive shooting, but I haven’t seen results that would inspire me to pursue it further.

I have a SF Vampire mounted on my helmet. I like it, but the illuminator on the PEQ is superior at distance.

I’m exactly the opposite, ironically with the same setup — T2 in Unity riser with NGAL or Raid.

I find the RDS to be much, much more accurate and easier than a laser beyond 50 yards. In CQ, lasers still win.

 

[rlsmith1]

I’m exactly the opposite, ironically with the same setup — T2 in Unity riser with NGAL or Raid.

I find the RDS to be much, much more accurate and easier than a laser beyond 50 yards. In CQ, lasers still win.

You should do a passive aiming comparison between low, mid and high performance tubes to see if tube performance impacts ease of aiming

 

[WhereNow&How]

You should do a passive aiming comparison between low, mid and high performance tubes to see if tube performance impacts ease of aiming

These 2 vids pretty much identify why Passive Aiming is a one trick pony. All the folks that make high mounts push the "passive aiming" narrative so they can sell product. I also have used high mounts for years, but not for the reason of "passive aiming". In a very high light environment "passive aiming" is somewhat doable for a shot or two. After that, its too dam slow and after the first shot, Joe Shit The Bad Dude knows you there so the element of surprise is over and done.

Passive aiming only makes "somewhat sense" in the context of OPFOR and nowhere else. If you 150% positive where OPFOR is, passive engage with Thermal is the way to go. If not 150% where OPFOR is, betta put some IR on it to make sure.

 

[Killswitch Engage]

That seems difficult ?

Impossible almost when you count commercial drones let alone mil stiff

not impossible at all just need to be clever and use thermals weakness. like anything it has an Achilles heal