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Precision Rifle Gear Adaptive Tuner - Kinetic Security Solutions
- Thread starter Lowlight
- Start date
I'm picking one up in 5/8-24 and can always throw it on the rimfire if I need to. Just need a thread converter.
Thought I’d share my results.
I bought this because I have access to factory ammo that I would shoot in a pinch. Also liked the idea of finding a node, keeping it, and fine tuning the tuner instead of seating depth.
Here’s my results:
How to read the target:
-top left number is target number
-bottom number is indicated hash mark starting from just off flush
- targets with / weren’t used and Z we’re just zero confwith mine and other rifles.
-all targets have 3 shots except 11 and 13, which I know I made a bad shot and just put an extra one down to confirm
Started just off flush as instructions said, and started to dial 2 hash marks at a time. I chose to do 3 shot groups because I felt like 2 wouldn’t tell the whole truth.
You can clearly see the groups start tightening up as I get closer to what I found worked (-10) and then start widening once I went out of the sweet spot (-6). So I started dialing back in single hash increments and thought I had found it at -7. I shot 4 to confirm because I knew I had pulled a bad shot causing that flyer on target 11. However, I decided to double check the set screw and found it had loosened up quite a bit. My error. So I tightened it back down, went to confirm and it was opening back up. Which made sense because as you can see on the target the sweet spot in right around -10 to -12.
So I started going back in single increments to -10 and found it tightened right back up. Made sure set screw was screwed on good this time, then shot two more confirmations(16,17).
To me, it really does work. And since I plan on switching between ammo, I’m hoping to have these settings marked down for each one so I can make those changes quick, confirm, and be ready to shoot.
PROS
-you can tighten up your groups without having to mess around on the bench (more my style, I’d rather be outside shooting!)
-super easy to install, no modifications needed on the rifle
-it hit rule number 1, it looks cool as fuck!
-price, to me $200 is t bad for what this thing does without having to change ANYTHING. You literally just slap it on
CONS
-as frank said, be prepared to use a lot of ammo. Hopefully the more use this thing gets in the public, someone will find a new, quick method in determining what to dial
-directions could maybe use a little more clarification or edit, but that could just be me
-you need to have patience and a good chunk of time dedicated to determining your setting. I was getting a little antsy toward the end and was at the range longer than I had expected to be
I haven’t had the chance to shoot factory yet and change settings between factory and hand loads, but I am impressed with it so far. I really like it and will be buying one for my .338lm
I bought this because I have access to factory ammo that I would shoot in a pinch. Also liked the idea of finding a node, keeping it, and fine tuning the tuner instead of seating depth.
Here’s my results:
How to read the target:
-top left number is target number
-bottom number is indicated hash mark starting from just off flush
- targets with / weren’t used and Z we’re just zero confwith mine and other rifles.
-all targets have 3 shots except 11 and 13, which I know I made a bad shot and just put an extra one down to confirm
Started just off flush as instructions said, and started to dial 2 hash marks at a time. I chose to do 3 shot groups because I felt like 2 wouldn’t tell the whole truth.
You can clearly see the groups start tightening up as I get closer to what I found worked (-10) and then start widening once I went out of the sweet spot (-6). So I started dialing back in single hash increments and thought I had found it at -7. I shot 4 to confirm because I knew I had pulled a bad shot causing that flyer on target 11. However, I decided to double check the set screw and found it had loosened up quite a bit. My error. So I tightened it back down, went to confirm and it was opening back up. Which made sense because as you can see on the target the sweet spot in right around -10 to -12.
So I started going back in single increments to -10 and found it tightened right back up. Made sure set screw was screwed on good this time, then shot two more confirmations(16,17).
To me, it really does work. And since I plan on switching between ammo, I’m hoping to have these settings marked down for each one so I can make those changes quick, confirm, and be ready to shoot.
PROS
-you can tighten up your groups without having to mess around on the bench (more my style, I’d rather be outside shooting!)
-super easy to install, no modifications needed on the rifle
-it hit rule number 1, it looks cool as fuck!
-price, to me $200 is t bad for what this thing does without having to change ANYTHING. You literally just slap it on
CONS
-as frank said, be prepared to use a lot of ammo. Hopefully the more use this thing gets in the public, someone will find a new, quick method in determining what to dial
-directions could maybe use a little more clarification or edit, but that could just be me
-you need to have patience and a good chunk of time dedicated to determining your setting. I was getting a little antsy toward the end and was at the range longer than I had expected to be
I haven’t had the chance to shoot factory yet and change settings between factory and hand loads, but I am impressed with it so far. I really like it and will be buying one for my .338lm
What I find interesting, and this comment isn't directed at anyone in general but a broad comment on the general accepted practice in dialing in the tuner, is the use of 3 shots.
A sample size of 3 is a very small sample size. Statistically insignificant. For measuring SD's it's almost meaningless. For groups, we generally as a community have a preference of at least a minimum of 5 shots. More is always better from a data analysis perspective.
It seems everyone is shooting 3 rounds per tuner setting. How can we be sure that that is the best setting? I think Frank made a very valid point in regards to the mental aspect, and that ties into the statistically insignificant sample size. Did the group grow (or shrink) because of the tuner? Or was that change from the shooter?
More shots means more ammo and more time, which takes away from the alleged convenience of using a tuner to quickly dial in a load over load development.
I'm not knocking tuners, I'm genuinely curious. How much of what is being experienced is a so-called placebo, versus genuine results?
A sample size of 3 is a very small sample size. Statistically insignificant. For measuring SD's it's almost meaningless. For groups, we generally as a community have a preference of at least a minimum of 5 shots. More is always better from a data analysis perspective.
It seems everyone is shooting 3 rounds per tuner setting. How can we be sure that that is the best setting? I think Frank made a very valid point in regards to the mental aspect, and that ties into the statistically insignificant sample size. Did the group grow (or shrink) because of the tuner? Or was that change from the shooter?
More shots means more ammo and more time, which takes away from the alleged convenience of using a tuner to quickly dial in a load over load development.
I'm not knocking tuners, I'm genuinely curious. How much of what is being experienced is a so-called placebo, versus genuine results?
I only use 2 shots. As you can see from my pics you can watch them getting closer. I check with a 5 shot group after I find the setting but not needed for dialing in the tuner.
Do you see a noticable difference in your 5 round groups pre-tuner versus your "dialed in" tuner 5 round groups?
Yes they are. If they weren’t I wouldn’t use it.
Have to agree here, 2 shots per setting does work to find the most promising region to explore further, but it requires a different interpretation than judging 3 or 5 shot groups when e. g. optimizing seating depth.
Got an ATS tuner last year from Aaron Hipp, and he was most helpful. Mounted it on an MPA BA comp rifle in 6.5 CM with the big MPA DN3 brake. Developed two optimized loads that shot under 0.25” when done. First found the powder charge in one case where the speed curve is mostly flat as powder goes up, and it was about 0.4 gn wide for RL-16. Wished for more, but that was it.
Developed the 135 A-tip load with RL-16 and did a 142 SMK load with IMR4350, without adjusting seating depth at all. Both were kept at book length of 2.810”. It went as quickly as adjusting seating depth at the range with an arbor press and an LE Wilson seating die, but was far more convenient, not having to drag all that equipment with you. And i guess most folks don’t own this type of BR gear. Took 30-35 rounds each playing with the tuner. Another 10-12 to find max pressure, then 30-50 to find the flat spot in the speed curve. Total round count probably in the 70-100 range. Similar to a traditional tuning approach via seating depth.
The idea is not to “shoot groups” (that takes too many rounds of ammo and takes too long), but to shoot only 2 shots per tuner setting, then increment by 2 (or 3) at a time (which is a lot), expecting the impacts to be quite far apart, like 1-1.5” indicating that you are getting the opposite of positive compensation. I used the black and yellow Shoot’n’See targets to clearly see my impacts at 100.
Dispersion might get (much) worse before it gets better, this happens about 50% of the time and then more rounds are expended. Or you might be lucky and every move is an improvement, with less rounds fired. If a flier is called (before peaking) then repeat the shot and ignore the flier.
Keep turning the tuner in the same direction in fairly large increments (like 2), shooting two shots every time until you see two or three fairly small adjacent “groups”, something approaching the potential of the rifle and the shooter. It should form a pattern. Sometimes a slanted vertical group will transition into a nice tight round group when you move the tuner a small amount, and then become an elongated horizontal group before opening up with a 0.5 increment.
This is the main point: A single “good” result surrounded by multiple bad results can be ignored, or shoot one more round at that setting and you will likely see a more realistic result (a larger group), indicating that the “good” 2 shot group was just luck. [We all know that 2 shot “groups” are not statistically representative of anything.]
Now investigate the good region in smaller increments of 1. Start over 1 before the first good-ish result and keep going until 1 after the last good one. I like to do 3 shot groups at this point, but some will use 2. Probably only 5 groups total, so 15 rounds. You will almost certainly find that there is a decreasing pattern followed by an increasing pattern, with a clear minimum somewhere in the middle.
If you don’t see a discernible decreasing/increasing pattern when you repeat in smaller increments, then something else is going wrong. You need to be on your best form, so try to shoot on a quiet day far away from others. Also you are breaking position every 2 shots to make an adjustment and this can cause problems too.
I picked the 142 SMK and the 40.0 gn of IMR4350 at book COAL to see if i could get a random load approximating a factory round to shoot well. It worked and returned a group size around 0.25-0.3”. I am pretty confident the tuner will work with factory ammo.
For the weight sorted A-tips i did first look for a wide flat spot in the speed vs powder charge curve, and found one. Then set COAL at mag length, and then used the tuner to optimize group size. All loaded on an FX120 after AMP annealing, Whidden non-bushing die with the button selected for light neck tension (about 1.5 thou), seating force was checked during seating operation, bad rounds were set aside, also weight sorted primers. Yes i was in full OCD mode. Worked remarkably well, with four sequential 3 shot groups below 0.1” in a low wind situation. [And yes i realize some folks will call BS on that last statement. Oh well. Best groups i ever got out of this rifle.]
Today loaded another 135 Atip batch, and when Houston comes out of its -28 F arctic freeze event, i will go try it again. We shall see how temp sensitive RL-16 is and if the tuner can recover the prior group size.
Btw: The chassis rifle has a Curtis Axiom action and a heavy straight taper 26” bull barrel and is generally accurate with almost any ammo, Berger and Hornady 140’s Match ammo deliver 0.35-0.4” five shot groups. Hand loads routinely do 0.25-0.35”.
Known limitations and disclaimers: A tuner will not “fix” a rifle that needs a bedding job, or one that had a bad chamber job. It will fairly easily help you to achieve the potential of the rifle, whatever that is, but no more. It will not compensate for highly variable neck tension, or very poor concentricity (TIR > 10 thou), or a made in China mechanical scale that varies by 0.3 gn round to round. Shooter has to be on his best form too.
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Don’t give up too soon, yes there is some learning curve involved, but i bet you will find it useful. Or always load long and reseat at the bench, so buy an LE Wilson seater and arbor press and optimize seating depth at the bench. Cost is about the same.
I just find a tuner to be faster and more convenient.
Has anyone tried one on an AR? I know an AR has a ton of other factors/variables going into shooting groups, but since you can't really play with seating depth on an AR, a tuner should provide some improvement. The way I see it, an AR would really test the effectiveness of a tuner.
Good post!
Reason why 2 shot “groups” work in this application: The shot dispersion changes very gradually if it is a heavy barrel, so you will see multiple bad ones and then eventually 3-4 good ones, with the best group approximately in the middle. Then find the best setting using small increments, and 3 or 5 shot groups. One accidental good group surrounded by several bad ones can be ignored, or simply reshoot it.
This is a similar trick to shooting multiple three shot groups with the same ammo that are all tiny, you know you have a good load, and you can eyeball what a 5 or 10 shot group would have been. The same as shooting a dot drill (“one shot” groups!) and back-calculating what the average 5 shot group would have been.
This example that Yankee88 has posted also explains why adjusting the tuner by larger increments of 3 would work fine with competition rifles, because heavy barrels whip slower. [A thin light or shorter hunting barrel with a small and light VAIS brake will need smaller increments as it will whip at a faster frequency.]
A 22LR shooting barely supersonic rounds have 3x longer barrel dwell time and usually do better with heavy brakes. A very light brake on a 22LR might need to be turned 2 or 3 revolutions to have the desired effect, and might run out of threads. A 50 cal shooting a 1000 grain bullet also has long bullet dwell time.
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I must have been doing something wrong with my other rifles as I could not see any improvement. I haven't given up on the tuner but just skeptical at this point in time.
I'm waiting on a QB can to put on my rifle. Once I get the new can on, I'll re-zero the rifle.
This is the group with the old suppressor but without the tuner. It's an 8 shot group with factory Hornady 6.5 CM 147 ELDM.
I don't feel like wasting ammunition to improve on this group if it won't get any better than this. Should I try using the tuner or be content with what I'm getting?
I'm waiting on a QB can to put on my rifle. Once I get the new can on, I'll re-zero the rifle.
This is the group with the old suppressor but without the tuner. It's an 8 shot group with factory Hornady 6.5 CM 147 ELDM.
I don't feel like wasting ammunition to improve on this group if it won't get any better than this. Should I try using the tuner or be content with what I'm getting?
I also didn't see much improvement with any of my rifles, and that's between a 6 Dasher, 6 Creed, and 6.5 creed. There was not a demonstrable, repeatable change that made a significant difference, even with factory ammo. That's between both Bartlein M24 and Proof Competition Contour barrels.
I actually spend less rounds doing a seating depth test than going through all the revolutions trying to dial in the tuner. I haven't completely given up on it, but thus far I haven't seen the results to warrant keeping it on.
I think the biggest benefit is going to come from rifles that are shooting 5/8” or bigger then use the tuner to tighten that up. If you are shooting 1/2” or better the tuner would be a null
Now for the handload crowd, you maybe able to use it instead of chasing seating depth, or as the barrel is getting burned out tuning the load instead of changing the load.
Most of the better barrels today are not gonna see a huge improvement
Now for the handload crowd, you maybe able to use it instead of chasing seating depth, or as the barrel is getting burned out tuning the load instead of changing the load.
Most of the better barrels today are not gonna see a huge improvement
So can you do the tuning during break in? I have a new 6mm Creed and 1200 factory rounds. I don't want to burn out a bunch of barrel life and thought I'd try to save round by doing the tuning during the first few rounds...
Is it better to wait until barrel speeds up to tune or can you do it in the first 50 rounds?
Is it better to wait until barrel speeds up to tune or can you do it in the first 50 rounds?
If this (very nice) group is representative of the capability of the rifle, given past experience, i would not mess with it. If you have seen much smaller groups in the past, then by all means try the tuner.
If you have already optimized seating depth, then there is limited utility in using the tuner. I don’t use both. If you want to avoid optimizing seating depth, or don’t have time or opportunity, or mag length limits what you can achieve, then a tuner is a good way to get positive compensation to work for you, for a limited range of distances. You will get a different tune at 200 vs 1000.
Mechanism: Seating depth slows down or speeds up the bullet exit timing, to line up with the time period when the barrel is rapidly moving upward (whipping), to achieve positive compensation. Faster shots exit sooner when the barrel is pointing lower, while lower speed projectiles leave later, and the barrel has more time to whip upward and the barrel is pointing higher at the (late) bullet exit.
Conversely: The tuner slows down or speeds up the barrel whip to line up with the ideal bullet exit time. The two mechanisms are just two alternative ways to achieve the same thing: Bullet exit at the most opportune time. Pick one and be happy.
If the SD and ES is very large, say 15/50 fps, the tuner will help only a little, but will never turn a 1.5 MOA group into a 0.5 MOA group at distance caused by bad SD. You still ideally need to find the flat spot in the speed vs powder graph. Or at least start with ammo loaded on good equipment with SD below 10-12 fps.
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I would think for a guy shooting factory ammo this tuner would be ideal?! But I guess if he’s already getting 1/2 moa 8-shot groups there’s little room or need for improvement
I have two target rifles that shoot almost any factory ammo into tiny groups. Hand loads are slightly better at 100, but at 600 and 1000 yards the vertical dispersion is 2x better - so yes then it clearly helps to reload. My tuner made a difference to the MPA rifle i tried it on, and it reduced group size by 0.2” for loads done at mag length (very long jump). For me it is a convenience, very nice to have, but not strictly required. And i am not taking the tuner off!
Also have a 7 lbs Howa 30-06 hunting rifle with a pencil barrel. It just will not shoot 150 grain ammo, groups between 1.5” to 4”, i kid you not. The 175 and 180 gn factory ammo performs hugely better: Groups between 0.2” and 0.6”. My best lightweight hunting rifle ever! I bet this rifle will respond well to a tuner when shooting light bullets, but no point, i already have a 180 Barnes TTSX load that shoot one hole groups. A $200 tuner on a $400 rifle would not make sense.
A tuner is just another useful tool in the toolbox, the theory of operation is very well understood, it is a convenient alternative to seating depth optimization, without having to reseat at the bench, but it will not magically turn a badly built rifle into a tack driver.
My experience is that it makes a big difference when shooting factory ammo: Instead of trying 5 different boxes of ammo to see which one or two the gun likes, you can make the first or second box you try shoot well enough. [I bet you could have achieved the same result with a bullet pulling die that is gentle on the bullets (like a Forster) and then doing seating depth optimization for your factory ammo, but who wants to bother with that.]
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I know this thread is now fairly old, but just wanted to add a comment: Have used the Kinetic tuner to improve 5 different loads so far (mostly loaded to mag length). Worked every time. Not better than my best load achieved via seating depth optimization, but i got to the same result very quickly.
Today attempted to tune a new load using an HBN coated bullet. Very frustrating day. Even though SD was 7.6 after 35 rounds fired (found the speed flat spot last weekend), i could not find a tune that worked consistently.
But i know why: the wind was atrocious! Gusting between 3 and 13 mph blowing from behind, and direction switched from left to right and a few times completely reversed blowing from the front. Tall berm that lifts the bullet if wind speed goes way up.
Gave up and went home, it just was not the day to do any load development. A ladder test would have shown garbage results, given my woeful lack of wind reading skills. Need to get a good spotting scope...
Lesson learned: Pick a day when conditions are conducive. Wind is fine if direction remains relatively constant. You can wait for your average condition (wind speed) to return. Flags are behind me, so hard to watch. Worst is a wind switching between 10 and 2 o’clock.
If this was my first experience using a tuner, i would have given up on it!
Note to self: Don’t quite too soon.
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I know this is an older thread, but I've been considering the ATS tuner myself. since 2017, I've shot 6 creed factory, Hornady, federal, and this year Berger. I have a feeling I won't start reloading so the only variable to change would be a barrel tuner. I guess I'm always envious of shooters group in 1 hole or 1 ragged hole. I can't remember the last time my rifle has ever done that. I'm going to confirm my groups next time I'm out but if I'm shooting 1/2" groups, is this something I need to mess with?
I’ve had excellent results with tuners. Even the small rubber harmonic dampeners on hunting rifles. I recently used one from “without warning “ on a 300prc that I didn’t want to change coal. It shot like crap at first. I shot 2-3 shot groups @ 200 depending on if I thought I had something or maybe a bad shot. I moved it 2 spaces between groups for a total of 6 groups and then started adjusting my scope to bullseye. I like this tuner. I feel for my setup a lighter tuner might not of had the same effect. Here’s the second target and shot groups clockwise and called it done on bottom left and then fought my adjustment and zero lock to bullseye and quit on center but this is 200 yards which I like better than 100 so I can see the spread better
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What sport are you shooting where you need less than half moa precision?
Don’t get me wrong, it might tune your groups slightly smaller. But you said “need”.
You also need to still have good ammo, good barrel and good chamber to get good groups.
A tuner is not a miracle device. A tuner will not make a bad load shoot good. It will not turn a bad barrel or bad chamber job into a better shooter.
What it allegedly does is make the harmonics of a load potentially more optimal for your barrel (if it isn't already optimized). But you still need all of the above in order to produce good groups.
It's essentially a crutch for making good factory ammo that perhaps isn't optimized harmonically to your barrel/chamber more optimal. If you reload, a tuner isn't going to do anything for you that good reloading practices won't solve.
In my case, even though I reload, I was able to keep the coal and use the tuner to tighten the group. This was a 3.7 coal that fed good and couldn’t be lengthened and was already a slightly compressed load so couldn’t be shortened
That's a pretty specific set of constraints that I doubt most reloaders have to deal with.
However, if you can't produce an optimal result with those constraints, then I can see how a tuner may help.
I'll disagree somewhat here. 'Good reloading practices' is doing a lot of work in your statement and often what it would call for isn't practical. The key advantage of a tuner is being able to tune in pre-loaded ammo (factory or handloads) immediately.
For instance, my range is an hour from my house, and getting the time away from my family and young kids to make that trek doesn't come up often, unfortunately. With my ATS tuner and a known safe load of powder, I was able to just set an arbitrary seating depth, load up a bunch of rounds and head to the range. Tuned in for accuracy, got a 0.3 - 0.4 MOA load (as good as my skills will allow) and I'm set. Without the tuner that would have meant an additional range trip, plus additional seating depth tests down the line as the lands wear.
Further, temperature, and time/humidity differences could be enough to throw off a good load after travel. I'm seriously considering the ATS hunting tuner for an otherwise very lightweight elk hunting rifle, for the (admittedly maybe slim) possibility that a good load in the summer in MN suddenly isn't at elevation and colder weather in CO.
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I’m not sure but I felt like the tmb tuner was the best choice for me with the heavier barrel and the larger bullets and the horrible group with just the stock brake. It definitely feels more substantial than my ats tuner but not going to experiment
I currently use the ATS tuner on an MPA bolt gun with a very heavy straight taper 26” barrel, 0.875” muzzle, and even with the limited weight of the tuner relative to the barrel, it can ‘create’ groups anywhere between 0.3”and 1”, as long as you test through one complete revolution.
Have managed to tune a new load simulating factory ammo, consisting of never-used components, cheap Hornady 140 BTHP bullets, new powder (IMR4350), book length load of 2.80” at a random 40.0 gn. No powder optimization looking for a flat spot, and no seating depth optimization trying to shrink the group. Initial group was over 0.7”. Tested the tuner in increments of 2 and the Excel graph roughly formed a sine wave. Final group was under 0.4”. Luck, maybe, but i doubt that.
Also, I have once intentionally “detuned” an optimized 0.3” load out to 1” via the tuner. So the physics works, even with low weight tuners.
But a defective rifle will never get “tuned” to shoot 1/4” groups. The rifle and the combo of components you picked need to be capable of that group through standard load development techniques. The tuner is just a faster more convenient way to get there, and it saves you multiple range trips - IF that accuracy potential already exists in your system. Pays for itself in gasoline…
Have managed to tune a new load simulating factory ammo, consisting of never-used components, cheap Hornady 140 BTHP bullets, new powder (IMR4350), book length load of 2.80” at a random 40.0 gn. No powder optimization looking for a flat spot, and no seating depth optimization trying to shrink the group. Initial group was over 0.7”. Tested the tuner in increments of 2 and the Excel graph roughly formed a sine wave. Final group was under 0.4”. Luck, maybe, but i doubt that.
Also, I have once intentionally “detuned” an optimized 0.3” load out to 1” via the tuner. So the physics works, even with low weight tuners.
But a defective rifle will never get “tuned” to shoot 1/4” groups. The rifle and the combo of components you picked need to be capable of that group through standard load development techniques. The tuner is just a faster more convenient way to get there, and it saves you multiple range trips - IF that accuracy potential already exists in your system. Pays for itself in gasoline…
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I've had great luck with the ats and ec tuners. I get the powder/speed node at 500y via ladder. Shoot seating depth test in 20k increments from 40-120 off lands, pick the group with best overall accuracy and /SD. Then I tune that load. Can usually get things shooting in 2s and 3s this way.
