Rifle Scopes Adjusting your scope

[Bwhntr53]

Ok. I may already have the answer to this in my head but here goes. I'm at the range. I have my scope dialed in using a 3 shot group. There is enough distance between the 3 shots to get measurements. Measuring between the 3 shots I get 1/2" between 2 shots and 3/4" to 1 shot. I guess I am trying to figure out how to tighten up the 3 shot group. My scope is 1/4" MOA at 100 yards. Should I try to tighten up the group moving horizontal and vertical clicks to try to tighten up the group? Yes I am pretty much anal about closeness due to being a Registered Land Surveyor. Aim small...Miss small.
Bwhntr53

 

[nn8734]

How far off is the center of your three shots to the actual point of aim on your target?

If within 1/2”or less you are good. Simply confirm zero periodically, recording your cold bore shift (if any) relative to a warm / fouled bore zero. Then work your way out to distance, recording your elevation (and windage hold overs if applicable) in your data book.

I wouldn’t focus so much on group size itself unless they are either inconsistent from session to session or if they open up significantly.

 

[b2lee]

Doesn't matter where the bullets land in relation to each other.....dial the adjustment according to where you aimed... POA...

If you have to cheat one side or the other....and you have a right hand twist...cheat left so that your spin drift will sorta cancel out. If you have to cheat high or low...cheat high.

When it comes to groups...shoot way more than 3 to start with to get a real representation of both the Point Of Aim (POA) and the resulting Point Of Impact (POI)....because the scope may be a 1/4MOA...but is the rifle?.....are you?

 

[Bwhntr53]

Thanks. I was thinking in the same ballpark about shooting more than 3 shots. I may go a little bit more overboard than some may. At the range I use the led sled ratchet strapped to the shooting bench. Then I have a strap where I tighten down the rifle in the led sled. I set the scope on target. I may be messing up by doing this but in doing this I only have to touch the trigger when I fire the rifle. I know that there is always going to be jump when firing the rifle I just try to eliminate as much movement as possible. Whether this helps or not I don't know. I just want the best group possible as I know that the groups open up more at longer distances. Maybe I ask too much of my rifle. Just trying to take out all the human error I can. Sorry about the rambling.

 

[b2lee]

putting it in the lead sled is all good and stuff for load development....but for sighting in a scope....you will have a bad surprise when you shoulder the rifle and due to difference in the wall of your shoulder...vs the wall of the lead sled....all of a sudden your impacts aren't even close to what you dialed the scope for.

A little true story about a recent 1 mile event. I was shooting my sighters all loosey goosey and I....no shit....hit 3 out of 4 clay pigeons at one mile with a 300PRC.....I'm like fuck yea...I'm going to tear this target a new ass in a few minutes when it is time to shoot for reals......Aight....ready on the right...ready on the left...ready on the firing line....commence shooting for record..... I get that rifle tucked in good to my shoulder....load that rifle real good on the bipod....death grip it so it doesn't go anywhere... BAM!!!! 6 FEET OVER THE TARGET!!....and just like that...an unqualified target...might as well not even shoot the next 4 rounds...done!

Lesson friggin learned right there.

So...back to your situation...I'd ditch the lead sled.

 

[screaminweasil]

Lead sled

 

[Steel head]

Get a scope with 1/8 moa clicks

 

[Gee Kay]

Thanks. I was thinking in the same ballpark about shooting more than 3 shots. I may go a little bit more overboard than some may.

there is mixed points of view from people on 3 vs 5 shot groups. possibly the more the better, who really knows.

i shot 20 rounds at 200 yards, or how i see it, 184 metres and got a 1.06moa group.
heat in my barrel, me not being perfectly comfortable shooting off a bench possibly caused such a large group, i will never know.
but to dial your scope, as has been stated above, you dial to meet the POA not the POI depending on which language of measure you think in to get your zero.

 

[308pirate]

My scope is 1/4" MOA at 100 yards.

You said you're a surveyor?

Should I try to tighten up the group moving horizontal and vertical clicks?

That's not what the windage and elevation adjustments are for. That's not what they do.

Throw your lead sled away and learn how to shoot.

 

[308pirate]

I....no shit....hit 3 out of 4 clay pigeons at one mile with a 300PRC.....

This thread delivers

 

[308pirate]

Maybe I ask too much of my rifle.

Which specific rifle, scope, and ammo are we talking about here?

 

[Punkur67]

Ok. I may already have the answer to this in my head but here goes. I'm at the range. I have my scope dialed in using a 3 shot group. There is enough distance between the 3 shots to get measurements. Measuring between the 3 shots I get 1/2" between 2 shots and 3/4" to 1 shot. I guess I am trying to figure out how to tighten up the 3 shot group. My scope is 1/4" MOA at 100 yards. Should I try to tighten up the group moving horizontal and vertical clicks to try to tighten up the group? Yes I am pretty much anal about closeness due to being a Registered Land Surveyor. Aim small...Miss small.
Bwhntr53

Scope adjustments are to move point of aim, not groups.

 

[308pirate]

Scope adjustments are to move point of aim, not groups.

Actually they move the theoretical point of impact, meaning the geometrical center of a group of shots.

What windage and elevation WON'T do is move a group of shots closer together. The OP has several gross conceptual errors going on.

 

[Esoteric Junkie]

putting it in the lead sled is all good and stuff for load development....but for sighting in a scope....you will have a bad surprise when you shoulder the rifle and due to difference in the wall of your shoulder...vs the wall of the lead sled....all of a sudden your impacts aren't even close to what you dialed the scope for.

A little true story about a recent 1 mile event. I was shooting my sighters all loosey goosey and I....no shit....hit 3 out of 4 clay pigeons at one mile with a 300PRC.....I'm like fuck yea...I'm going to tear this target a new ass in a few minutes when it is time to shoot for reals......Aight....ready on the right...ready on the left...ready on the firing line....commence shooting for record..... I get that rifle tucked in good to my shoulder....load that rifle real good on the bipod....death grip it so it doesn't go anywhere... BAM!!!! 6 FEET OVER THE TARGET!!....and just like that...an unqualified target...might as well not even shoot the next 4 rounds...done!

Lesson friggin learned right there.

So...back to your situation...I'd ditch the lead sled.

Please tell me what I need to do in order to be able to hit three out of four clay birds at one mile. I would love for you to show me. If you are able to do it on demand again I will pay all your travel expenses to and from Blakely, GA. I look forward to hearing your insider information.
EJ

 

[308pirate]

Please tell me what I need to do in order to be able to hit three out of four clay birds at one mile. I would love for you to show me. If you are able to do it on demand again I will pay all your travel expenses to and from Blakely, GA. I look forward to hearing your insider information.
EJ

Let's see here......

A US-std clay target is 108 mm in diameter. That's 4.25".

4.25/1.047/17.8 = .228 MOA

Three times in a row. At 1,780 yards.

Do I buy it? Let me think...………….no.

 

[Bwhntr53]

Ok. I may already have the answer to this in my head but here goes. I'm at the range. I have my scope dialed in using a 3 shot group. There is enough distance between the 3 shots to get measurements. Measuring between the 3 shots I get 1/2" between 2 shots and 3/4" to 1 shot. I guess I am trying to figure out how to tighten up the 3 shot group. My scope is 1/4" MOA at 100 yards. Should I try to tighten up the group moving horizontal and vertical clicks to try to tighten up the group? Yes I am pretty much anal about closeness due to being a Registered Land Surveyor. Aim small...Miss small.
Bwhntr53

Yep. I am a Registered Land Surveyor. My POA is hitting a target on this spinning earth measuring down to the 0.0000 inches using satellites spinning around several miles up there. Crosshairs on a scope are not much different except in the price of the equipment. Couple of thousands for a scope. Couple of tens of thousands for my equipment.

 

[308pirate]

Yep. I am a Registered Land Surveyor. My POA is hitting a target on this spinning earth measuring down to the 0.0000 inches using satellites spinning around several miles up there. Crosshairs on a scope are not much different except in the price of the equipment. Couple of thousands for a scope. Couple of tens of thousands for my equipment.

All of that is mostly inconsequential to your issue.

First you should tell us the exact rifle, ammo, and optic you're dealing with. Why? So that we can have an idea of what accuracy expectations are realistic. So far you have told us nothing about this which is why I suspect you haven't had much useful feedback from the forum.

Second, you really need to understand that a rigid, unyielding lead sled is not conducive to determining the mechanical accuracy of a rifle. It's a poor, cheap, ill-thought out contraption that fools fudds and the ignorant. If you want to use a mechanical fixture, you should be looking at a return-to-battery rifle rest.

Third, you should become proficient enough that you can zero a rifle to its potential without needing some contraption to hold it for you. Every shot you fire from some mechanical cradle is a shot that you wasted in order to become a better shooter.

Fourth, you should do some reading on how a rifle scope's windage and elevation adjustments work and what they actually affect on target. The assumptions behind your questions make it clear that this is not something you understand well.

Fifth, for a surveyor you display a poor understanding of the angular units that are used to adjust bullet trajectory. Read up more on that.

 

[Steel head]

Adjust scope to get your group center on the center of reticle.
The less precise you and your rifle are and the fewer shots used makes this alignment more difficult.

This is the best zeroing I ever had.
1 shot on paper, adjust scope according to what the reticle tells me.
Confirm with four more shots.
That tiny bit of elevation bias is less than the resolution of the dials and can be effectively ignored

 

[Bwhntr53]

Ok. Yes I know. I still have a long way to go to becoming a good shooter which literally has nothing to do with surveying. So here is my information. Now I am no way a long distance shooter but I do enjoy shooting very much. I have a Savage Axis in 6.5 creedmoor, Vortex Crossfire Scope 4x12x44, Hornady Precision Hunter Ammo 143 gr. eld-x. Someday I would like to own a great long range setup. To me it is more about shooting well whether it's 25 yards or 1000 yards. I like not only shooting well but trying to improve my shooting skills. Being retired and on a limited budget it's tough for me to be able to shell out a lot of money. Which is why I love shooting but I have to do it on a limited budget right now. Hopefully one day I will be able to build a great rifle. Whether I am shooting my .22 or my new 6.5 creedmoor I just love to shoot. I would like to see how some of you got started shooting in your beginnings.

 

[308pirate]

I have a Savage Axis in 6.5 creedmoor, Vortex Crossfire Scope 4x12x44, Hornady Precision Hunter Ammo 143 gr. eld-x.

Based on that and this:

Measuring between the 3 shots I get 1/2" between 2 shots and 3/4" to 1 shot.

I'd say you're getting acceptable accuracy for your rifle/scope/ammo combination.

 

[screaminweasil]

Based on that and this:


I'd say you're getting acceptable accuracy for your rifle/scope/ammo combination.

Nailed it

 

[screaminweasil]

I'm trying to figure after using 10's of thousands of dollars worth of surveying equipment, purchasing a $200 Vortex for your precision rifle shooting?

 

[screaminweasil]

Oh......I skipped over the "Savage Axis 6.5 Man bunn"...............now I see

 

[Bwhntr53]

Based on that and this:


I'd say you're getting acceptable accuracy for your rifle/scope/ammo combination.

May be a little off on the distance between the 3 shots that I did take at the 25 yard mark after cleaning and trying to break in the new barrel. Haven't had a chance to get to the range yet but I will

 

[Bwhntr53]

I'm trying to figure after using 10's of thousands of dollars worth of surveying equipment, purchasing a $200 Vortex for your precision rifle shooting?

Retirement budget. And lots of other irons in the fire.

 

[308pirate]

May be a little off on the distance between the 3 shots that I did take at the 25 yard mark after cleaning and trying to break in the new barrel. Haven't had a chance to get to the range yet but I will

I'm glad you brought the distance up. I, and I bet everyone else, was assuming your first post was talking about results at 100 yards, not 25.

Nevertheless, I would consider three shot groups averaging 1 - 1.5 MOA to be acceptable from an entry-level rifle with a skinny barrel and ammo that is neither top shelf match grade nor junk blasting ammo. Being that yours a Savage I would not be surprised if you get three-shot groups that average 1 or slightly less than 1 MOA.

I would not expect your rifle to be shooting groups significantly smaller than 1 MOA, so don't be disappointed if it doesn't.

Notice that I'm talking about group size measurements in angular units (minutes of arc in your case) and not linear units (inches/mm/whatever). There's a very good reason for that.

 

[Bwhntr53]

I'm glad you brought the distance up. I, and I bet everyone else, was assuming your first post was talking about results at 100 yards, not 25.

Nevertheless, I would consider three shot groups averaging 1 - 1.5 MOA to be acceptable from an entry-level rifle with a skinny barrel and ammo that is neither top shelf match grade nor junk blasting ammo. Being that yours a Savage I would not be surprised if you get three-shot groups that average 1 or slightly less than 1 MOA.

I would not expect your rifle to be shooting groups significantly smaller than 1 MOA, so don't be disappointed if it doesn't.

Notice that I'm talking about group size measurements in angular units (minutes of arc in your case) and not linear units (inches/mm/whatever). There's a very good reason for that.

I should have been more upfront when I started this thread.

 

[screaminweasil]

Retirement budget. And lots of other irons in the fire.

Nothing wrong with that. Just know that you won't experience the same kind of precision with that particular setup than you would with a little more quality. For a budget setup and having fun, which this is all about, rock on! My Dad is finally realizing after using some of my nicer scopes and rifles that he's wasted more time and money trying to be precise with equipment that isn't up to the task, that's all i'm saying.

In this game, for someone such as yourself who really enjoys precision, you will be money ahead and headache free by ponying up the dough from the start. Just know that your setup isn't capable of the kind of precision your looking for. Either enjoy it for what it is, or start with something more precision oriented in both rifle and optic.

In any event, have fun

 

[b2lee]

Please tell me what I need to do in order to be able to hit three out of four clay birds at one mile. I would love for you to show me. If you are able to do it on demand again I will pay all your travel expenses to and from Blakely, GA. I look forward to hearing your insider information.
EJ

heh...maybe my semantics were a bit off....there were four clays...I hit three of them...I put more than 4 shots down range in the 6 minute sighter period. But I did hit 3 of them. No, I can not do it on command....to say I surprised myself is an understatement.

I grew up in GA and still travel there a few times a year. I do intend to make it to Blakely and enjoy your fine facility one day. I'm heading out the door now to travel North to Thunder Valley Precision...where we will once again have a nice 1 mile match on Saturday and a Make up match on Sunday. Hopefully I continue doing well....but my luck will probably run out soon. I will also shoot in 1000yd Tactical Division with the same 300PRC. My goal this weekend is to get below a 5" five shot group. Last month I had one at 5.04"....I think I can get below 4" even with a bipod on a concrete bench....we'll see.

Hopefully everyone here will be shooting and enjoying the outdoors over the weekend...if so....good luck everyone!....now...out the door I go.

 

[Esoteric Junkie]

heh...maybe my semantics were a bit off....there were four clays...I hit three of them...I put more than 4 shots down range in the 6 minute sighter period. But I did hit 3 of them. No, I can not do it on command....to say I surprised myself is an understatement.

I grew up in GA and still travel there a few times a year. I do intend to make it to Blakely and enjoy your fine facility one day. I'm heading out the door now to travel North to Thunder Valley Precision...where we will once again have a nice 1 mile match on Saturday and a Make up match on Sunday. Hopefully I continue doing well....but my luck will probably run out soon. I will also shoot in 1000yd Tactical Division with the same 300PRC. My goal this weekend is to get below a 5" five shot group. Last month I had one at 5.04"....I think I can get below 4" even with a bipod on a concrete bench....we'll see.

Hopefully everyone here will be shooting and enjoying the outdoors over the weekend...if so....good luck everyone!....now...out the door I go.

Best of luck at the Thunder Valley match. Remember if you miss it is best to miss on the pro side.

Shoot straight!
EJ

 

[Southern Custom]

First do some study about zeroing a rifle scope. Zeroing the scope has nothing to do with tightening the group up. Only with bringing the average centerpoint of that group closer to your point of aim. The average size of the group is simply a function of your skill level coupled with the accuracy potential of your gun. 25 yards won’t tell you very much about your gun. And when you move out to 100 your group will be very high based on your sample target. You need to be hitting about 2 inches low at 25 to be anywhere close to zeroed at 100.
Second, shooting from a sled will tell you a bit about the accuracy potential of the gun but will only get you in the ballpark as far as zero compared to actually shooting the gun yourself. Everything about how you set up to the gun will affect where the bullet will impact.
But back to your statement about adjusting the scope to tighten the group. This is simply impossible. The scope reticle is only used to adjust bullet impact relative to point of aim. Group hitting high? Dial down. Group hitting left? Dial windage right. If you are still getting a 2 inch group at 100 yards for instance, which is about what you might expect based on your group at 25yards, then that is what your practical accuracy is between you and your gun. The scope won’t change that.