My idea.....
Add a 14th guy to the Platoon with the designation "Scout".
He keeps his ass attached to the PL and engages targets of opportunity with his XM-3/M40 as directed.
A brain, a surgeon, and 3 full fire teams to rain death and destruction.
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Advanced Sniper Rifle Solicitation
- Thread starter DavidK
- Start date
My idea.....
Add a 14th guy to the Platoon with the designation "Scout".
He keeps his ass attached to the PL and engages targets of opportunity with his XM-3/M40 as directed.
A brain, a surgeon, and 3 full fire teams to rain death and destruction.
Hi,
Well this thread turned sideways pretty fast......
Here is my take on it (Not that it matters, lol):
Like it or not we are in a constant arms race (including sniper rifles) with pretty much every country in the world.
Like it or not we are in a constant doctrine and tactics race with pretty much every country in the world.
Like it or not the days of leveling an entire block to get 2 bad guys are dwindling down fast.
So my question is who in this thread believes our (USA) SOCOM units/teams have the best sniper rifles in the world? My bet would be less than half of us.
So my question is who in this thread believes our (USA) SOCOM units/teams have the best doctrine, tactics and training in the world? My bet would be almost all of us.
So why do we want to "handicap" their doctrine, tactics and training with sniper rifles that are not on same level as they are?
How many of you realize that there are lots of other well trained units of other countries that have superior range capability sniper rifles?
Sincerely,
Theis
Well this thread turned sideways pretty fast......
Here is my take on it (Not that it matters, lol):
Like it or not we are in a constant arms race (including sniper rifles) with pretty much every country in the world.
Like it or not we are in a constant doctrine and tactics race with pretty much every country in the world.
Like it or not the days of leveling an entire block to get 2 bad guys are dwindling down fast.
So my question is who in this thread believes our (USA) SOCOM units/teams have the best sniper rifles in the world? My bet would be less than half of us.
So my question is who in this thread believes our (USA) SOCOM units/teams have the best doctrine, tactics and training in the world? My bet would be almost all of us.
So why do we want to "handicap" their doctrine, tactics and training with sniper rifles that are not on same level as they are?
How many of you realize that there are lots of other well trained units of other countries that have superior range capability sniper rifles?
Sincerely,
Theis
How about 2016 Lithuania chose to procure a rifle chambered in 8.6×70 mm (.338 Lapua Magnum) AI AXMC.
I’m not talking specifics because I try not to because it is a public forum. Yes I want the most lethal and brutal fighting force. Yes there are many fronts. Yes we take lessons learned from the last war to prepare for the next. We should always be striving to to better equip not just SOCOM but the regulars as well. I think the key here in this instance is bug green fucked us. If we had just gone AI when the PSR solicitation was decided we wouldn’t be here. Well maybe we would but it might be for a different reason.
I’ll leave the procurement up to the guys who do it. I won’t comment on military applications because I am no longer active and am not the one using it. I do know when I was in, we got stuck with a lot of garbage stuff for a lot of reasons. But we were always looking ahead and testing the next best thing no matter how effective our current was. If you don’t innovate you die. Period.
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the price tag isnt an issue for me. the price tag doesnt just include a rifle and a scope. there is support and other things figured into that dollar that many dont understand. as for an M110, im pretty sure they were damn near that 10k tag. hell spend 20k, makes no difference to me. just make sure its 20k for the right rifle and not the one you want it to be.
Members are pissing and moaning about what SOCOM needs and how money can be saved by using what we already have. Here is Lithuania, a very small nation and they buy AI AXMC 338 Lapua to the tune of $1.4 million with a military budget around $450M. So, the US military budget is around $892 Billion, the cost of a sniper rifle system at $20K is inconsequential. And if they only need the capability one time, then I want them to have it.
As to 300 Win Mag or 300 Norma, or 338 Lapua or 338 Norma, who cares. Sounds so much like 9mm versus 45 ACP. It is projectile dependent.
If the guys in Lithuania bought a bunch of AXMC rifles, it's probably a pretty wise investment for them as they are probably set for any caliber they want to muck around with for the next 10 years, assuming they bought a kit with the mag adapter & the other 2 bolts.
Also with the AI system, they can choose to buy barrels from any number of suppliers if something comes up with AI barrel availability.
Also with the AI system, they can choose to buy barrels from any number of suppliers if something comes up with AI barrel availability.
Dont they all when everyone has a favorite.
Thing is there are as many suitable rifles as there are places/conditions where they may be used and the fact is people will use what they are issued and make the most of it.
Special people will still get what they need.
People will still say we should get an AI switch barrel but as far as Im concerned if they dont Brexit they may as well be Chicom regardless if they are made here unless we just steal the design ala Mauser and call it a Springfield 03.
Get me a rifle that will engage swarming, flying anti personnel drones.
Thats the one you will need if not fighting crafty stone age men.
Tactics and tactical...the military can handle that but its all for naught if leadership has no clue about strategic and strategical. You are just pushing on a rope expecting the cart to move.
Hi,
All SOCOM needs is this because....any target farther away than this can handle is just a radio call away lol.
This replaces everything except the Sig pistol so armory only has to keep track and maintain 2 weapon systems.
Sincerely,
Theis
All SOCOM needs is this because....any target farther away than this can handle is just a radio call away lol.
This replaces everything except the Sig pistol so armory only has to keep track and maintain 2 weapon systems.
Sincerely,
Theis
is that TH's personal cowboy action airsoft rifle?Hi,
All SOCOM needs is this because....any target farther away than this can handle is just a radio call away lol.
This replaces everything except the Sig pistol so armory only has to keep track and maintain 2 weapon systems.
Sincerely,
Theis
Alright I don't want to be a dick but just for clarification, when and where was you last deployment as an SF solider? You seem to be grossly out touch with sniping in the SOF community.
Pretty sure he was an AF pilot from what I gathered in other posts.
I actually agree with you and you arent even seeing it. Yeah we probably do need a new rifle. I want to know who is coming up with what we are buying, because if you read the proposed rifle you should be asking who picked this and why. Because we just blew 80mil on the same damn thing and are now trying the same thing again, but because SOCOM is running it that means its gonna work. Why are we wasting money when we can get the data we need and put out a contract thats actually going to fill a void instead of the crap on that list.
To the out of touch with SoF sniper engagements... thats so funny. This isnt the place for a resume drop but so far as white SOF I haven't has any contact with 1st SFG this year and thats just on a personal level. Are you talking the 3rd groups losing their 2010 in Niger, all the long tabs i know that watched the video shake their heads. Or a FLOT breech.... ok great you have a major sniper engagement. Are snipers great for Point D? sure thats why the army and marines have a DMR. Again is plinking the DsHK team from 3 miles really shaping the battlefield? Im sure one of you "doorkicking-operators" will try to tell me yes. If you couldnt make the argument for it I could but in reality....
What makes me laugh about all of this is how many missions does SF have? and which is their sole mission for being around? You guys act like all SoF does is DA and UW. The units that do those missions don't need to worry about new rifles. If you were so in touch at all you'd realize that more and more of the glorious NSW book writers are doing more FID than they have ever done, and not the FID that involves advising in a firefight.
I havent flown in quite some time. I dont know guys picking the rifle but based on the requirement... my gish really
Why dont we build our top rifles for different ranges, keeping in mind a large order. I can bet none of our ordering would look like that. Multi caliber? horrible accuracy numbers? sliding the .300 in LOL!!!!! screams trident.
Again in 2014 I was working( non combat ) with an 18A that was also on the CIF ( this was during the OMG dump all DI gas guns) and i asked him his thoughts. he said its laughable about the whole thing and most of his guys take the m4. So can i find dudes that think our rifles are trash and such sure.
Can i bring up Wanat in 2008 ? melted barrels-jamming rifles sure but considering the ROF those guys had on a FOB breach nothing would have made that stop. The problem wasnt the weapons it was the decision to place the FOB where it was.
So I am gonna bounce from this thread. You guys keep selling the need for a new rifle that your buddies think is the best idea. Waste more money on it. Don't ask guys that shoot all the time, and I am talking civilains. Even the Army admit civilians are more accurate and put their weapons in worst conditions than most joes. Oh and the last SOUTHCOM SoF snipers comp. the US finished 3rd I think. Must have been theUS dude shooting the 6.5 creed in the MPA that cost them the win.......... if he only had an interchangable 308/300/338
https://armyreservemarksman.info/2012/12/14/shooting-skill-snipers-vs-competition-shooters/
My agreement doesnt matter but I agree with a lot of what you say.
On another mutual masturbation thread inquiring about "the best semi auto battle rifle" I think its humorous that the OP has eliminated the AR series for consideration based on its "sub caliber" chambering yet almost every poster initially claims the AR as the best battle rifle than in accordance with OP picks FAL, M14 or Garand.
What happened to AR being too anemic or DI being a fatal flaw? Every one seems to choose it when it is the generic choice.
Regards the article above I dont doubt it one bit. Go to any club with comps and there are great shooters. I laugh when the comment from anti gun people is that only cops are competent enough to carry firearms in public.....Scary.
The only issue about the article is what happens when those statistics are exposed to rounds coming back at you.
That is where you seperate the wheat from the chaff.
Someone that may not be the best shooter, and has been issued a mediocre rifle, but laughs at incoming is much better than the best shooter, with the best gear, reduced to the fetal position in fear.
There are better things that the money could be used for than changing what is in the system.
Every new guy here that asks what he should buy for gear is usually told "training".
Ok so...not asking for your resume (I'm sure its impressive) but as somebody who is actual is a SF dude, it makes me wonder what exactly you bring to the conversation reagarding the ASR and its procurement? I'm not particually butt-hurt, it is a public forum and its your tax dollars, so you can certainly through your 2 cents around all you want. But don't try to fool anyone into thinking its worth any more than that unless you're willing to detail exactly what the origin of your authority is. Funny you mentioned 1st Group, because thats where I'm from. In fact I'd love to know who you're talking to, as I use to be one of the primary SFSC instructors over there from 2012 to 2015. Durning my time there I was also the lead developer for the ELR/HTI Course reboot at 1st Group, so I am very familiar with the operational needs that brought the PSR/ASR about.
Thanks for the insight...I guess. You also mentioned earlier that sniping isn't a SF mission, so I gathering, based off the things you're saying that you don't really comprehend that sniping its self is not a mission (for anyone), it is a skillset used to accomplish/support a given mission. So lets look at the primary SF missions sets real quick.
1. Unconventional Warfare
2. Special Reconnaissance
3. Direct Action
4. Counter-Terrorism
5. Foreign Internal Defense
I can tell you from my professional view point, that the ASR platform directly supports SF snipers in 5/5 of those mission sets. While yes currently a big chunk of SOF's time is invested in FID, and FID is probably the mission that is least supported by the ASR capabilities, I think you fail to realize how we operate. Granted, its rather difficut to grasp, looking from the outside in.
Oh great you talked to an 18A, probably the least informed of all the 18 series MOS's as to what goes on in SF sniping. 18A's don't go to sniper school and spend a whopping 1.5 to 2 years as a team leader, so their combat exposure is normally limited to a 1 or 2 pumps if they're lucky. Also when was that last time C co. deployed in direct support of OIF/OEF/O-whatever? Because of the CRIF's mission, those trips are pretty fucking limited when compared to the line companies, so it looks like to me you couldn't have picked a more un-informed SF dude if you tried.
Bring up Wanat? Sure I guess you can but I fail to see the relevance to the ASR program.
Well don't let the door hit you on the way out...and no, why would we feel the need to ask you or any other "civilain" shooter about what we (actual SOF snipers) need in terms of weapon systems/capabilities needed to accomplish our mission? You seem to think the ASR is a waste of money on a capability that's unneeded or over exaggerated, yet you don't have any real context for how SF/SOF snipers are actually operating except through 2nd hand (3rd hand is probably more correct) information. I don't go around telling folks the F35 is a waste, I have my opinions on the matter but I'm far from even being considered a SME on 4-5th GEN air superiority doctrine or tech, so you won't see me on public forums suggesting otherwise.
As for civilian competitive shooters being better...maybe, in fact I should kinda hope so, as being a competive shooter is their job. Being a SF sniper isn't a job, it isn't a mission, its a technical skill-set among a bunch of others. That said, I shot Ko2M this last year on a whim ...I flew in on a red eye the day before, borrowed a rifle, zeroed and trued it with about 20-30 rounds and still end up in the top 10 while shooting against some of the best shooters in the world. So I don't know but maybe we're not half bad. (Edit - Note: Concerning "Operational Snipers" vs. "Camp Perry Competitors" see line 20 in Figure 1. below.)
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The f35 isn’t a piece of shit, the development program was just rotten with bullshit whichbtaints it’s reputation.
For a little info from what we know....
The .338 Norma from my understanding is primarily meant as a payload round. So the reason for only a 2.5 moa capability there.
The .308win. and .300 Norma are the primary anti personal rounds and have a accuracy req. of 1moa or better with box ammo.
It also makes sense to keep the .308win just from two stand points. As one of my buddies who is a SS put it best....he can find .308win./7.62Nato ammo anywhere. So he will always have a gun with ammo. It's a proven round with a good track record to boot.
Also getting a feel for a new gun in .308win you won't burn the barrels up as fast as the .300 Norma and the ammo let's say cost wise is a $1 a round vs. say $4 a round for the .300 Norma.
Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
The .338 Norma from my understanding is primarily meant as a payload round. So the reason for only a 2.5 moa capability there.
The .308win. and .300 Norma are the primary anti personal rounds and have a accuracy req. of 1moa or better with box ammo.
It also makes sense to keep the .308win just from two stand points. As one of my buddies who is a SS put it best....he can find .308win./7.62Nato ammo anywhere. So he will always have a gun with ammo. It's a proven round with a good track record to boot.
Also getting a feel for a new gun in .308win you won't burn the barrels up as fast as the .300 Norma and the ammo let's say cost wise is a $1 a round vs. say $4 a round for the .300 Norma.
Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
Can't we all now go back to having our dicks in our hands talking about which is the best 6mm?
easy, the one you're not using
I guess im just biased against Remington, but I cringe at the thought of what the DOD pays for a god damn Remington. You can put lipstick on a pig all you want, but the bitch is still going to say oink. I would much rather put any future money into a better product, but im aware that I am ignorant of the things that have been discussed in here, so take my .02 and do what you please with it.
Hey guys,
I did get a call that said it was potentially down to AI and Barrett Right now. Not all the companies who attempted to submit successfully did so as the requirements are very specific.
Was said several dropped out very early or did not even complete the submission.
Seems to me, from the Intel, that the Army is trying to do a better job with version vs the original PSR one.
I did get a call that said it was potentially down to AI and Barrett Right now. Not all the companies who attempted to submit successfully did so as the requirements are very specific.
Was said several dropped out very early or did not even complete the submission.
Seems to me, from the Intel, that the Army is trying to do a better job with version vs the original PSR one.
Were the Norma Magnums selected so the same bolt and magazine can be used for both 300 and 338? Only need to change barrel.
As an American Barrett should get it by default, as a shooter and someone who loves AI they deserve it on quality. If AI agrees to make em in the USA I hope they win other wise we need a VAT exemption from the Brits. AI is like the Ferrari from Ferris Bueller.
I'm assuming AI will have to perform as FN had to on their AR contract.
Worked for Sig also.
Someone already mentioned AINA.
As long as they are made in the USA that's fine.
When we have to go to war against the EU we will be able to send management to a POW camp and take over the assembly line.
Of course the forests of Central Europe will be adequately served by the .308 version to the disappointment of all the magnum fans.
Poland will be on our side fighting east to west. Perhaps they can be supplied with the magnum varieties for long shots across the Polish plains.
MAGA!
Worked for Sig also.
Someone already mentioned AINA.
As long as they are made in the USA that's fine.
When we have to go to war against the EU we will be able to send management to a POW camp and take over the assembly line.
Of course the forests of Central Europe will be adequately served by the .308 version to the disappointment of all the magnum fans.
Poland will be on our side fighting east to west. Perhaps they can be supplied with the magnum varieties for long shots across the Polish plains.
MAGA!
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A lot of AI stuff is made in the US,
They have the shop outside Buffalo NY and much of the LA stuff, as well as chassis stuff, is made there.
Barrels come from there too
They have the shop outside Buffalo NY and much of the LA stuff, as well as chassis stuff, is made there.
Barrels come from there too
Hi,
Well the tender mandate of "total set aside" for small business would have to be revised in order for it to go to Barrett......
Per the BATFE manufacturers report...from the quantity Barrett reported as manufactured in the most recent available year then Barrett would be over the "Small Business" revenue limits....UNLESS Barrett revenue just has taken a total dump for 2017 and 2018.
But either way...Good Luck Barrett and AINA!!
The more important aspect of this tender is Black Hills coming up with some great AP projectiles/ammunition for the 300 and 338 NMs.
They should really look into tungsten darts/core inserted into backdrilled monolithics
Sincerely,
Theis
Well the tender mandate of "total set aside" for small business would have to be revised in order for it to go to Barrett......
Per the BATFE manufacturers report...from the quantity Barrett reported as manufactured in the most recent available year then Barrett would be over the "Small Business" revenue limits....UNLESS Barrett revenue just has taken a total dump for 2017 and 2018.
But either way...Good Luck Barrett and AINA!!
The more important aspect of this tender is Black Hills coming up with some great AP projectiles/ammunition for the 300 and 338 NMs.
They should really look into tungsten darts/core inserted into backdrilled monolithics
Sincerely,
Theis
I'll be pleasantly surprised if AI gets this like they probably should. I kind of counted them out because they're a British company even though they're probably the top dog in all of this. Then again I don't know anything about how this works so it wouldn't be a big shock.
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Could get expensive for me as I would than have to buy one to live out my fantasies of being an "operator" while shooting my clubs 25 yard lane than id rushing to get home to the keyboard so I can expound on what I think the mil should buy next.
Already ahead of you on that one. Now I need to get some tactical gloves and some 5.11 clothing to go with it.
Not to mention the chassis is already a part of the Crane system with the Mk13 and the rifles are used by US Military in a limited capacity. Certain Units can and do use them today.
Accuracy International North America - Enough Said
Accuracy International North America - Enough Said
Hi,
Well the tender mandate of "total set aside" for small business would have to be revised in order for it to go to Barrett......
Per the BATFE manufacturers report...from the quantity Barrett reported as manufactured in the most recent available year then Barrett would be over the "Small Business" revenue limits....UNLESS Barrett revenue just has taken a total dump for 2017 and 2018.
But either way...Good Luck Barrett and AINA!!
The more important aspect of this tender is Black Hills coming up with some great AP projectiles/ammunition for the 300 and 338 NMs.
They should really look into tungsten darts/core inserted into backdrilled monolithics
Sincerely,
Theis
Not knowing the technical definition of "small business" for this exercise, Barrett is 26 miles from my front door. If that little shop doesn't qualify as a small business then somethings wrong. There's not that many cars out there when I drive by.
Having shot the PSR and the MRAD, I have a preference but I see they both have their strengths and weaknesses. Hopefully the shooters get what they want and the logtain can keep the damn things fed and working.
AI is in the running? Out fucking standing, gents!! Music to my ears.
Barrett isn't a bad option either but AI would be awesome. The most battle capable rifle in the hands of the most battle capable fighting force.
Barrett isn't a bad option either but AI would be awesome. The most battle capable rifle in the hands of the most battle capable fighting force.
Met a dude today that probably has tactical gloves and 5.11 knock off clothing.
He was being bundled in an ambulance while I was assisting the loading of his no tire treaded car onto a flat bed.
In the hatch of his car he had a paint ball .45 ACP, an M4, and a M249.
Co wokrers eyes jumped from their heads when I pulled the 249 from the car and opened the feed cover to ensure it was what it was stated to be. In addition there was a full set of ersatz tactical gear complete with fake SAPI plates, comms, admin pouches, FA kits and magazine shingles. All the toy guns had a full suite of DBAL, "Eotech" and other operator accoutrements.
Spending all that cash on paint ball and neglecting your bald tires so you can cause a crash that takes out two other vehicles and than getting yourself and one other a ride to the hospital.
Priceless!
Small business size is determined by Small Business Admininstration using NAICS codes. In this case, the solicitation lists "NAICS Code: 332 -- Fabricated Metal Product Manufacturing/332994 -- Small Arms, Ordnance, and Ordnance Accessories Manufacturing." Most NAICS' are determined by dollar value, for instance, $20M a year meaning more than $20M over a 3-year running average. 2016 - $2M, 2017 - 2M and 2018 $25M = $29M/3 = $9.66M a year so you're GTG. 2016 = $15M, 2017 = $18M and 2018 = $30M = $63M = $21M average so you're over size standard. NAICS 332994 is different and uses employees as the standard so any company under 1,000 employees will be considered a small business. I would think lots of companies could qualify.
makes sense. I understand the desire to spread the wealth a little and not get caught up in single source products but honestly if KBR or GE made the best sniper rifle out there why exclude them? Why not let everyone with a desire and a product submit and pick the best one? I wonder if we hamstring ourselves at times needlessly?
Once you try it you'll never go back. Bought mine at 71 and have enjoyed it immensely. But, like the real SOF soldiers, I prefer incognito.
Once you try it you'll never go back. Bought mine at 71 and have enjoyed it immensely. But, like the real SOF soldiers, I prefer incognito.
Id screw it up by getting AXSA in .308 with 20 inch barrel.
Cant get away from legacy calibers.
I just wouldnt be cool enough.
It would give me good excuse to take my S&B off my LMT and put it where it would do some good though.
So instead of shitting on him educate him, and me, on what is needed and why what is in the system is inadequate.
Is what is used in comps what is needed? Usually game gear does not make good service gear.
Is the RFP intended for "all" or just in as needed cases? Usually there is no one size fits all that works.
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The logic or argument I haven't seen made about replacing any gear is this hypothetical from the soldiers perspective....
"Based on mission, expected use parameters, and experience......X will give us a better chance to win."
There is no arguing against getting gear that provides a better chance to win.
Unfortunately gear is usually acquired based on the particular "likes" of one person........see US Army ACU camouflage as an example.
I fear some of this is also related to "Good once we get them this COTs "system" we can get rid of Crane, PWS and the AMU armorers to save a shit load of money" leaving the soldier with no in house way to "modify" for special specific needs.
I like Rudy Gs acknowledgement that we are tax payers with a right to "question".
Educate us so we can call our senators and say "Hey you need to push this".
If that would require killing us after exposing the need, than never mind.
"Based on mission, expected use parameters, and experience......X will give us a better chance to win."
There is no arguing against getting gear that provides a better chance to win.
Unfortunately gear is usually acquired based on the particular "likes" of one person........see US Army ACU camouflage as an example.
I fear some of this is also related to "Good once we get them this COTs "system" we can get rid of Crane, PWS and the AMU armorers to save a shit load of money" leaving the soldier with no in house way to "modify" for special specific needs.
I like Rudy Gs acknowledgement that we are tax payers with a right to "question".
Educate us so we can call our senators and say "Hey you need to push this".
If that would require killing us after exposing the need, than never mind.
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My dad was in 1st group in the 80's. I don't for second believe that any SF guy would spend much if any time here it's not consistent with what I've known their mentality to be. I believe they would look at anyone who engaged too deeply in pointless arguements on websites such as this one like a dork. My way of saying I don't buy it you wouldn't be here.
Hey man that one hurts over here too and Im not even SF.
Its a different day and age regards communications.
Some of that is good, some is bad.
The access is generally good but sometimes for modesty reasons it would be preferable for all this "media" to go back to pre 24/7 levels.
There are a few SEALs looking for book deals that might not appreciate your thoughts.
but this is a gun site and what better topic than to debate what will become "the standard" by which we gauge rifles.
Sometimes you dont use hands to masturbate.
Rifle porn to keep it on track....
Hi,
Are you serious in regards to this post or were you being sarcastic?
Sincerely,
Theis
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