Rifle Scopes ADVICE! High-Power, FFP, Mil-Mil, 10-Mil/Rotation Rifle Scope

[Das Capitolin]

After a few years with the Vortex Viper PST 6-24x and SWFA SS HD 5-20x FFP/M-M scopes, I'm ready for something better. The SWFA SS HD 5-20x had 10mils/rotation turrets and good eye box, but parallax was difficult to turn, magnification was only good to about 16-18x, and the glass was good but not great. The Vortex Viper PST had better glass, better magnification, and smooth turrets, but was only 5 mils/rotation and had a terrible eye box. I'm fine with a high price, but only so long as it absolutely delivers value for the cost. My requirements seem rather basic: FFP, high-power (24x or better), mil-turrets, mil-reticle, 10+ mils per rotation, excellent optical clarity. Zero-stop is optional, since 10 mil rotation paired with 20-min rail gives lots of room to move.

Here's what I've found so far in order of preference:
• U.S. OPTICS ER-25MIL $2773: 25x max, 0.1 mil, 11 mils/turn, 16.6 mils travel, 34mm tube, 58mm objective, illuminated.
• Steiner M5Xi Military 5-25x56 $3150: 25x max, 0.1 mil, 15 mils/turn, 26 mils travel, 34mm tube, 56mm objective, illuminated.
• Kahles K 624i $3054: 24x max, 0.1 mil, 14 mils/turn, 34mm tube, 56mm objective, illuminated.
• March Tactical 3-24x52 FFP $3250: 24x max, 0.1 mil, 10 mils/turn, 34 mils travel, 34mm tube, 52mm objective, illuminated.
• Schmidt & Bender 5-25x56 PM II/LP/MTC $3740: 25x max, 0.1 mil, 10 mils/turn, 22 mils travel, 34mm tube, 56mm objective, illuminated.
• Bushnell Elite Tactical ERS 3.5-21x50mm ET35215GZ $1670: 21x max, 0.1 mil, 10 mils/turn, 34 mils travel, 34mm tube, 50mm objective.
(Scopes below are not yet available)
• Nightforce 5-25×56 F1 B.E.A.S.T. $3300*: 25x max, 0.1 mil, 10 mils/turn, 35 mils travel, 34mm tube, 56mm objective, illuminated, stupid name, not yet available.
• Vortex Razor HD Gen II 4.5-27x56 EBR-1C 27x max, 0.1 mil, 10 mils/turn, 33 mils travel, 34mm tube, 56mm objective, illuminated, not yet available.
• Tangent Theta 5-25x56mm TT525P (doesn't appear available)

Any thoughts or comments on these choices would be appreciated, along with other product suggestions.

 

[wvlapua]

Kahles 624i gets my vote.

 

[Darkside-Six]

Can't go wrong with the S&B their 5-25 PMII's set the bar IMO.

 

[Graham]

ADVICE! High-Power, FFP, Mil-Mil, 10-Mil/Rotation Rifle Scope

Get an old SB 5-25. Pre-MTC. Get a better scope than the new ones, and for less money.

NF F1 is still the best value for the money.

 

[sulcop96]

I currently have the March with the 44mm objective, and have had the USO and the lower power Steiner. I love the March and only complaint is low light resolution could be better but I am with Ilya on how good the March is. I would say the 52mm objective on the new March's would resolve that problem and for me that would be MY number one.

With that said, that is MY opinion and your going to get a different "pick this" form every person who adds to the thread. The bottom line for me is that if I found ANY of the above for a good price I would not hesitate at all (and throw the Kahles and Hensoldt on the list as well) Seeing as your making the jump from the PST, a good scope, and the SS 5-20, a very good scope and moving into the elite category you would notice the upgrade no matter what you selected. So find the best deal and don't look back.

Sully

 

[MoBoost]

If you are ready to spend this much money on a scope - you really need to "test drive" them.
I am not a sure about all of the scopes on the list - but some of FFP scopes tunnel at lower magnification - which makes no freaking sense! Why even offer lower magnification if it doesn't give more FOV???? Just sounds and feels like a cheap sales gimmick - none of those words should be in the same sentence as a $3k+ scope....

 

[LRSFNG]

You can do better on the Steiner at Liberty.

 

[sib1948]

March F 3-24X nonilluminated about $2200 (love mine and the 5-40X except for the 0.05 mil click). Great glass, best zero stop and lighter and shorter than all other scopes you mention. Can't beat S&B 3-20X or 5-25X, but more pricy and had recent price increase. I like the MTC turrets, but some don't. Not sure you'll find a BEAST any time soon unless you preordered one about a year ago and same may apply to new Vortex Razor HD 4.5-27X, but loved my Razor HD 5-20X with 10mil turrets and EBR-2B reticle for <$2000, but 35mm tube so limits mounts, but Suphr works well with built in level. Never have tried the others you mentioned, but you nailed the best. Don't feel the Bushy is in the same class! Depends on your own needs and preferences, since you'll get many differing opinions. Get behind as many as you can-out at the range if possible. Useless trying to compare them in a shop.

One advantage of any of these scopes in mil/mil with simpler reticles is that they can usually be resold easily with small loss, if you find the one you picked "isn't as perfect as you expected".

Once you get your scope, check out the new Aadland Engineering scope covers. They are bullet proof with lifetime, no fault, transferable warranty. No receipt needed for free repair or replacement. Good luck. All of us have had the same delima from time to time.

 

[Regular Guy]

Kelbly's will have the new version of the March 5-40 with .1 Mil clicks ready for delivery shortly.

I have the 3-24 now and will be picking one of the 5-40 up as soon as they come in. Great scopes - especially for the price...

 

[RyeDaddy]

I agree you need to test drive. Optics are quite subjective. Reticle choices and feel of turrets is not something that everybody agrees on.

Add to your list to check out:
Kahles K624i
Tangent Theta (or used Premier) 5-25x56

If you fill in your location in your profile you may find people or shops locally where you can see the scopes firsthand:

 

[shadydiesel]

Kahles 624i gets my vote.

This.... Although it's 14mils per rev so if your stuck on only 10...

 

[TestnDoc]

Schmidt Bender. Pricey but worth it.

 

[hk dave]

If your Viper has better glass than your SWFA, then your SWFA is broken. There should be absolutely no comparison. Your SWFA should blow your Viper out to the water in terms of optical clarity.

Ive owned both and checked side by side along with a Nightforce F1.

 

[Das Capitolin]

Thank you for all the feedback so far. I've added a few more to the list based on these recommendations.

Kelby's will have the new version of the March 5-40 with .1 Mil clicks ready for delivery shortly.

I only see the 0.05Mil/click version listed on their website, so where have you seen details of a 0.1Mil/click version?

Add to your list to check out: Kahles K624i, Tangent Theta (or used Premier) 5-25x56

I've added the Kahles K 624i to the list. I would like to add the Tangent Theta 5-25x56mm TT525P to the list, but they do not disclose if it's FFP/SFP.

This.... Although it's 14mils per rev so if your stuck on only 10...

More mils/rotation seems better to me!

If your Viper has better glass than your SWFA, then your SWFA is broken. There should be absolutely no comparison. Your SWFA should blow your Viper out to the water in terms of optical clarity. Ive owned both and checked side by side along with a Nightforce F1.

I've owned two SWFA SS HD 5-20x FFP/M-M scopes, and both had horrible light past 17x. To my surprise neither of them were as clear as my Vortex PST at full magnificiation. Thanks for posting your opinion, but perhaps you forgot to suggest an option?

The bottom line for me is that if I found ANY of the above for a good price I would not hesitate at all (and throw the Kahles and Hensoldt on the list as well).

Unfortunately the Hensoldt ZF 6-24 is a SFP scope.

 

[RyeDaddy]

I've added the Kahles K 624i to the list. I would like to add the Tangent Theta 5-25x56mm TT525P to the list, but they do not disclose if it's FFP/SFP.

All the Tangent Theta scopes are FFP, as were the Premiers.

 

[Das Capitolin]

March F 3-24X nonilluminated about $2200

Please post a link, because I can't seem to find this scope near that price.

All the Tangent Theta scopes are FFP, as were the Premiers.

I have added Tangent Theta 5-25x56mm TT525P to the list, but I can't seem to find it for sale anywhere.

 

[hk dave]

My option suggestion was to get your SWFA checked.

As for a new optic choice, since you obviously want a new one, I'd go with the S&B. The others either are not yet available or aren't in the same league.

 

[CMH]

I believe the price quoted for the 3-24 non-illum March ($2200) is for the 42 mm objective model. The 52 mm objective model is substantially more.

 

[oldschoolcool]

I'm not a "Pro", but here's some information from PrecisionRifleBlog.com on what the top 50 shoot. On my new DPMS SASS, I went with the Vortex Razor HD 5-20x50 FFP EBR2B 10MRAD, mounted on a 20MOA AADMOUNT. I've owned Nightforce, US Optics, Premier, Leupold, and "for the money", it's the best glass I've ever owned.

Based on what the top 50 long-range shooters nationwide brought with them to the 2013 Precision Rifle Series (PRS) Finale……..there were 5 Vortex scopes represented among the top 20 finishers. Only Schmidt & Bender had more scopes in the top 20, and you’d have to spend $1,500 more to get an S&B.

 

[Rob01]

If you can wait then wait for the Vortex Razor II. Nothing wrong with the 5-20 Oldschool spoke of but with your requirement of 24x and up on the high end it doesn't make it.

 

[sib1948]

Please post a link, because I can't seem to find this scope near that price.

Here's the link to Kelbly's March Price List:

http://kelbly.com/march-scopes/March Kelbly-Retail price 2014.html

Scroll down to the FFP Section. I purchased the D24V42FML with the FML-1 reticle-$2230 shipped as I recall 18 months ago. They came out with the 52mm objective version, but I have never had brightness issues with my 42mm version, which is $500 less and don't think it's worth the extra money.

 

[Das Capitolin]

Based on what the top 50 long-range shooters nationwide brought with them to the 2013 Precision Rifle Series (PRS) Finale……..there were 5 Vortex scopes represented among the top 20 finishers. Only Schmidt & Bender had more scopes in the top 20, and you’d have to spend $1,500 more to get an S&B.

I'm curious, which model Bushnell scope did these top shooters use?

Here are my top choice so far (with notes):
• U.S. OPTICS ER-25 $3160: 25x max, 0.1 mil, 11 mils/turn, 16.6 mils travel, 34mm tube, 58mm objective, illuminated.
• Schmidt & Bender 5-25x56 PM II/LP/MTC $3740: 25x max, 0.1 mil, 10 mils/turn, 22 mils travel, 34mm tube, 56mm objective, illuminated.
• Steiner M5Xi Military 5-25x56 $3150: 25x max, 0.1 mil, 15 mils/turn, 26 mils travel, 34mm tube, 56mm objective, illuminated.
• Kahles K 624i $3054: 24x max, 0.1 mil, 14 mils/turn, 34mm tube, 56mm objective, illuminated.
• March Tactical 3-24x52 FFP $3250: 24x max, 0.1 mil, 10 mils/turn, 34 mils travel, 34mm tube, 52mm objective, illuminated.
• Nightforce 5-25×56 F1 B.E.A.S.T. $3300*: 25x max, 0.1 mil, 10 mils/turn, 35 mils travel, 34mm tube, 56mm objective, illuminated, stupid name, not yet available.
• Vortex Razor HD Gen II 4.5-27x56 EBR-1C 27x max, 0.1 mil, 10 mils/turn, 33 mils travel, 34mm tube, 56mm objective, illuminated, not yet available.
• Tangent Theta 5-25x56mm TT525P (doesn't appear available)

 

[shadydiesel]

Another thing to consider that bothers some but not others is most ffp scopes 5x zoom and above exhibit tunneling... Scopes in the 3-27 range also usually have a thicker crosshair so that it is useable at low magnification and to me are too thick to be of much use on the high end.

 

[RyeDaddy]

Another thing to consider that bothers some but not others is most ffp scopes 5x zoom and above exhibit tunneling.

On his list, only the Schmidt tunnels, and its only up to about 7x.

 

[Toast]

I'm just loving the opinions and advice on this thread, including the nice price list.

 

[Regular Guy]

Thank you for all the feedback so far. I've added a few more to the list based on these recommendations.

I only see the 0.05Mil/click version listed on their website, so where have you seen details of a 0.1Mil/click version?

Directly from Ian Kelbly. They announced it at SHOT.

 

[sib1948]

I'm just loving the opinions and advice on this thread, including the nice price list.

Like I said earlier, the OP really nailed the best and doubt any you pick would disappoint. While I don't feel the 42-52mm jump in the new March F scopes makes much difference, I wish my March FX 5-40X had the 0.1 mil clicks, since my other scopes are all 0.1 mil and I do dial wrong at times due to that. I think the BEAST with the 0.2 mil clicks will suffer the same fate as the March FX with it's 0.05 mil clicks (even though you can put all the scope data into ballistic apps). Most shooters have more than 1 scope and it's only logical that they should have the same mechanicals. With the multicaliber rifles I have, you also have to compensate your dialing with barrel changes or adding a suppressor.

For the money you can't beat the Vortex Razor HD models and the early reviews on the new 4.5-27X sound very impressive except for the 48oz weight. I'm also glad they reduced the tube size from 35 to 34mm.

March scopes are the lightest and I should add that I rarely use illumination, since I don't hunt. Even hunters have reviewed illuminated scopes and say you get about 5-10 minutes of extra hunting in morning and evening.

Best of luck, but I'm sure you'll be impressed with whatever you choose! Please keep us informed on your Journey and final choice.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

Get an old SB 5-25. Pre-MTC. Get a better scope than the new ones, and for less money.

NF F1 is still the best value for the money.

This. The only other one on the list I would be considering is the beast but they are unobtanium. I had one on order paid in full since last January and finally gave up and cancelled the order, who knows when or if they'll ever show up.

 

[shadydiesel]

On his list, only the Schmidt tunnels, and its only up to about 7x.

Your right. I thought I saw bushnell listed earlier somewhere. I should have been more specific with SOME scopes do some don't (smart asses on here lol)

Point being that all manufactures have strengths and weaknesses and the best thing to do is get behind as many of the scopes on your list and pick what fits YOU and YOUR needs the best. Quality on high end optics is very subjective.

 

[Das Capitolin]

I'm really leaning towards the U.S. OPTICS ER-25 based on the features. It's $3160 online, and has 25x max, 0.1 mil, 11 mils/turn, 16.6 mils travel, 34mm tube, 58mm objective, illuminated.
I also like the Steiner M5Xi Military 5-25x56, which costs $3150 online. It has 25x max, 0.1 mil, 10 mils/turn, 26 mils travel, 34mm tube, 56mm objective, illuminated.
The Schmidt & Bender 5-25x56 PM II/LP/MTC costs $3740, and doesn't appear to be available in too many places. It offers 25x max, 0.1 mil, 10 mils/turn, 22 mils travel, 34mm tube, 56mm objective, illuminated.
I also like the Kahles K 624i, available for $3054 online. It has 24x max, 0.1 mil, 14 mils/turn, 34mm tube, 56mm objective, illuminated.
The March Tactical 3-24x52 FFP costs $3250 online. It offers 24x max, 0.1 mil, 10 mils/turn, 34 mils travel, 34mm tube, 52mm objective, illuminated.

So who has the best price on US Optics or Steiner?

The new Nightforce 5-25×56 F1 B.E.A.S.T., Vortex Razor HD Gen II 4.5-27x56 EBR-1C, and Tangent Theta 5-25x56mm TT525P are also on my list, but they're flying albino unicorns at the moment.

 

[NevadaZielmeister]

I'm really leaning towards the U.S. OPTICS ER-25 based on the features. It's $3160 online, and has 25x max, 0.1 mil, 11 mils/turn, 16.6 mils travel, 34mm tube, 58mm objective, illuminated.
I also like the Steiner M5Xi Military 5-25x56, which costs $3150 online. It has 25x max, 0.1 mil, 10 mils/turn, 26 mils travel, 34mm tube, 56mm objective, illuminated.
The Schmidt & Bender 5-25x56 PM II/LP/MTC costs $3740, and doesn't appear to be available in too many places. It offers 25x max, 0.1 mil, 10 mils/turn, 22 mils travel, 34mm tube, 56mm objective, illuminated.
I also like the Kahles K 624i, available for $3054 online. It has 24x max, 0.1 mil, 14 mils/turn, 34mm tube, 56mm objective, illuminated.
The March Tactical 3-24x52 FFP costs $3250 online. It offers 24x max, 0.1 mil, 10 mils/turn, 34 mils travel, 34mm tube, 52mm objective, illuminated.

So who has the best price on US Optics or Steiner?

The new Nightforce 5-25×56 F1 B.E.A.S.T., Vortex Razor HD Gen II 4.5-27x56 EBR-1C, and Tangent Theta 5-25x56mm TT525P are also on my list, but they're flying albino unicorns at the moment.

As you know, Casey has the Kahles and he really likes it. And you know I have the Schmidt and Bender. Did you ever look through mine at all? You are welcome to at the next match my friend.

 

[sawman556]

 

[rommel500]

FYI the newer US Optics 34mm tubed ER25s should have ~ 25+ mils of elevation travel. I know on the site it says 16.6 mils but in their instruction manual on page 20 it lists 25+ mils of elevation travel. My newer ER25 confirms this as well.

http://www.usoptics.com/media/pdf/USO_TPAL_Manual.pdf

For what its worth, I like the EREK knob but the windage knobs leave a bit to be desired from USO. Just my 2 cents after playing with my new ER25.

 

[samnev]

I recently purchase a Bushnell Elite FFP G2DMR 3.5-21X50 scope. If one can do without the illuminated reticle it is a great scope. Imo the glass, resolution and tracking are equal to my Nightforce scopes.

 

[Das Capitolin]

I recently purchase a Bushnell Elite FFP G2DMR 3.5-21X50 scope. If one can do without the illuminated reticle it is a great scope. Imo the glass, resolution and tracking are equal to my Nightforce scopes.

Strange timing, because I was just looking over the Bushnell Elite Tactical DMR 3.5-21x50mm scope. It's got a 34mm tube, whereas the others in the series have 30mm. The illuminated reticle is an unused option for me, so that's not going to make a difference. The scope has 34 mils of travel, but only 5.0 mils per rotation. So close...

 

[samnev]

Strange timing, because I was just looking over the Bushnell Elite Tactical DMR 3.5-21x50mm scope. It's got a 34mm tube, whereas the others in the series have 30mm. The illuminated reticle is an unused option for me, so that's not going to make a difference. The price is low enough that I wouldn't lose much if I needed to resale the scope later. I'll add this into the list, but am still unsure how many mils/rotation it offers.

The Bushnell FFP Elite G2DMR 3-5-21X50 is a great scope. If you want the 10 mil turrets you will have to spring for the 2014 model that also has zero stop. They are still much lower in price than the others on your list.The 2013 model only has 5 mil turrets and no zero stop. IIRC Scott at Liberty Optics has the new models in stock and gives hide members a good deal.

 

[Das Capitolin]

The Bushnell FFP Elite G2DMR 3-5-21X50 is a great scope. If you want the 10 mil turrets you will have to spring for the 2014 model that also has zero stop. They are still much lower in price than the others on your list.The 2013 model only has 5 mil turrets and no zero stop. IIRC Scott at Liberty Optics has the new models in stock and gives hide members a good deal.

Yep, the Bushnell Elite Tactical ERS 3.5-21x50mm ET35215GZ has 10 mils/rotation and a zero stop, but adds $500 to the price tag for these two features.

 

[samnev]

Yep, the Bushnell Elite Tactical ERS 3.5-21x50mm ET35215GZ has 10 mils/rotation and a zero stop, but adds $500 to the price tag for these two features.

Yes that is why I went with the 2013 model. The 5 mil turrets are a non issue for me.

 

[ahhshoot]

Steiner.

 

[Das Capitolin]

So it's down to these two choices:

• U.S. OPTICS ER-25MIL 5-25x58: 25x max, 0.1 mil, 11 mils/turn, 16.6 mils travel, 34mm tube, 58mm objective, illuminated.
• Steiner M5Xi Military 5-25x56: 25x max, 0.1 mil, 15 mils/turn, 26 mils travel, 34mm tube, 56mm objective, illuminated.

I'm leaning towards the Steiner, primarily because of total travel and warranty. I do like the 11 mils/turn on the USO, but their warranty service seems less friendly.

 

[Das Capitolin]

Decision made: Steiner M5Xi Military 5-25x56. 25x max power, 0.1 mil increments, 15 mils/turn, 26 mils travel, 34mm tube, 56mm objective, illuminated. Similar quality and same features as S&B, for approximately $1500 less. Thank you all for your advice.

 

[Kiwigrunt]

Counter Sni..... Oh....too late!

 

[mdesign]

Good scope...should work well for you.