Rifle Scopes Advice on 3X magnifier for AR15

[Roslyn]

Am considering adding a 3X magnifier to an AR to complement a Trijicon MRO red dot. Are there features of magnifiers that you have found really make a difference in every day use? This is for competition, not Mil/LE use, if that matters; and for shooting out to around 400 yards. Want to include mounting choices in my question, if anyone reading this believes that deserves some comment. The flip down, or flip to side or however we refer to them seem like a good obvious idea; but possible in real use cases they just get in the way.

I have a Kahles variable 1-6X on another rig and like it. May be I should just stay with that approach and use the red dot for matches at shorter distances? Thinking of the magnifier because small targets at distance just too damn hard to see (for me at least) to set up an accurate shot. Maybe I am just asking too much of a red dot to be thinking of shooting it beyond 200 yards?

Appreciate any advice or perspective on this. Thx.

 

[Back Spin]

I too am interested in people’s replies.

I can tell you that I tried, but didn’t like the EO Tech G33 magnifier (used in conjunction with an Aimpoint H2). The adjustment screws for the sight picture easily snag on gear and move. Also the balance of the gun feels off with the G33 flipped to the side (which also blocks your FOV). Lastly, the G33 mounting screws stripped easily.

I did like the 3x capability with red dot ease of acquisition. I’m thinking of going to the Scalar Works short throw mount or Unity Tactical flip to center mount.

 

[Jefe's Dope]

I have both the Eotech flip to side and Aimpoint twist off. Both are decent glass but I think the Eotech is a bit better than the Aimpoint. With the twist off mount you can use the magnifier separately easily as a 'spotting scope'. You can do this with the Eeotech but not quite as fast. The question posed to me and one I ponder is; What do you do w/ your magnifier once you twisted it off?. That's where the flip to side shines. Need it, it's there. Don't, it's not. Need it again, it's back. And if can still be removed fairly easily and put back on. My Eotech centering screws are flush and not easy to turn. Never caught them on anything that the optic itself wouldn't catch on.

 

[Birddog6424]

The Kahles is the far better optic for competition. Are we talking 3 Gun here?

The Trijicon is not the right reticle for distance shooting, even with a Tripler behind it. If you are looking at a red dot for ranged shots, pick up something with a BDC.

But again, as long as you have a K16i(?), that would absolutely be my first choice.

 

[golden_311]

Like my eotech. Picked up a cheap knock off as well and actually don’t mind it all that much. Just not as solid as the other.

 

[Back Spin]

Jefe,

Which Aimpoint magnifier do you have? 3x-c?

Multiple guys from my agency’s SWAT team have complained about the exposed adjustment knobs of the G33. I would prefer if the knobs were flush.

 

[ShaoKahn]

I have the EOTech EXPS3-4 with the G33 magnifier on a 5.56. Love the setup. The EXPS3-4 has a BDC which is perfect for taking longer shots (built in 50, 300, 400, 500, 600 yrd markers), and when the magnifier is flipped to the side, it’s great for close range. With the setup, I can bang targets at 300-400 yards all day long with XM193 ammo, and even had it out to 600 yrds.

That being said, i wouldn’t use a magnifier behind a simple red dot, just for the fact it has no BDC. You’ll just be guessing your hold overs.

 

[Jefe's Dope]

Jefe,

Which Aimpoint magnifier do you have? 3x-c?

Multiple guys from my agency’s SWAT team have complained about the exposed adjustment knobs of the G33. I would prefer if the knobs were flush.

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[wade2big]

I have the EOTech EXPS3-4 with the G33 magnifier on a 5.56. Love the setup. The EXPS3-4 has a BDC which is perfect for taking longer shots (built in 50, 300, 400, 500, 600 yrd markers), and when the magnifier is flipped to the side, it’s great for close range. With the setup, I can bang targets at 300-400 yards all day long with XM193 ammo, and even had it out to 600 yrds.

That being said, i wouldn’t use a magnifier behind a simple red dot, just for the fact it has no BDC. You’ll just be guessing your hold overs.

I shoot from point blank to 500 yards with an Aimpoint with no magnifier. Holdovers with practice are easy. No BDC required. Sight in dead on or slightly above at 200 yards and you are set. If I can see it, i can hit it. You could to.

The problem with no magnification is seeing the targets in the first place. Even on a static range where the targets are known, when conditions are right it is hard to see the damn things. This is why this thread interests me as I have been considering a magnifier.

 

[ShaoKahn]

Yep, no denying it can be done without magnification or BDC. Hell, you could do it with iron sights. But a red dot with magnification and BDC makes it that much easier.

 

[Roslyn]

Interesting discussion, just what I was hoping for.

I may be asking too much of a red dot to think that it can shoot targets reliably at distance -- the point wade2big makes about finding them really strikes home. And then there is the guessing about holdovers ShaoKahn points out. I like the Kahles 1-6X big time, can adjust it down to 1X for shorter distances, but I am not as fast with it in target acquisition and sight alignment as with a red dot. That could easily just be operator shortcomings.

Wasn't aware of the EOTech EXPS3-4, will look into that.

Really appreciate the contributions.

 

[freedom71]

Any feedback on the new Vortex Micro 3x magnifier? I have a UH-1 and would use it with that.

 

[Centuriator]

Jefe,

Which Aimpoint magnifier do you have? 3x-c?

Multiple guys from my agency’s SWAT team have complained about the exposed adjustment knobs of the G33. I would prefer if the knobs were flush.

Is that actually a problem? I doubt it.

Further the G-33 has dopter adjustment.

 

[Jefe's Dope]

Both my Eotechs are like these. The older version.

 

[Jefe's Dope]

Current version w/ exposed turrets.

 

[Vodoun daVinci]

I have a Vortex VMX-3T and removed it....it just doesn't work for me. I think it depends more on the dot size of your RDS. With a 1 MOA dot I think 3X is useful but for me with a 3 MOA dot and a 3X magnifier I just plain shoot better without the 3X. With my setup, the dot covered up too much of the target for any kind of precision.

VooDoo

 

[NET65]

I’ve run both the old and the new version (eotech trade in program), never had any issues with snagging, not really sure what would snag on it.

 

[Centuriator]

I’ve run both the old and the new version (eotech trade in program), never had any issues with snagging, not really sure what would snag on it.

And if by chance they do move...it is just moving the reticle image in the magnifier...not shifting the reticle itself.

 

[Back Spin]

I'm just passing along what I heard from SWAT guys at my agency. "Snagged" was not the best word to use, but the exposed knobs apparently would turn, presumably from rubbing against gear or rubbing against the walls of a gun bag.

I didn't ask how much of a shift or how often the reticle would be shifted, but it was enough to be noticed. And I would be annoyed if it happened on a regular basis. That being said, regular pre-service inspections may alleviate the issue. However, not every SWAT guy is a gun/gear guy who knows their kit as well as they should.

 

[wade2big]

I'm just passing along what I heard from SWAT guys at my agency. "Snagged" was not the best word to use, but the exposed knobs apparently would turn, presumably from rubbing against gear or rubbing against the walls of a gun bag.

I didn't ask how much of a shift or how often the reticle would be shifted, but it was enough to be noticed. And I would be annoyed if it happened on a regular basis. That being said, regular pre-service inspections may alleviate the issue. However, not every SWAT guy is a gun/gear guy who knows their kit as well as they should.

Why would SWAT have magnifiers?

 

[Centuriator]

I'm just passing along what I heard from SWAT guys at my agency. "Snagged" was not the best word to use, but the exposed knobs apparently would turn, presumably from rubbing against gear or rubbing against the walls of a gun bag.

I didn't ask how much of a shift or how often the reticle would be shifted, but it was enough to be noticed. And I would be annoyed if it happened on a regular basis. That being said, regular pre-service inspections may alleviate the issue. However, not every SWAT guy is a gun/gear guy who knows their kit as well as they should.

a. The reticle would not shift.
b. I'm going to hoist the BS flag on this one.

 

[Centuriator]

Why would SWAT have magnifiers?

Why not?

 

[Back Spin]

Not everything SWAT does is close quarters. Sometimes extra magnification can help with IDing threats.

 

[Back Spin]

a. The reticle would not shift.
b. I'm going to hoist the BS flag on this one.

Hoist away.

 

[wade2big]

Why not?

Not everything SWAT does is close quarters. Sometimes extra magnification can help with IDing threats.

In my mind SWAT is entering buildings. Even outside I could hardly see them shooting any distance that a red dot alone wouldn’t get it done. I guess i am wrong.

 

[Birddog6424]

Interesting discussion, just what I was hoping for.

I may be asking too much of a red dot to think that it can shoot targets reliably at distance -- the point wade2big makes about finding them really strikes home. And then there is the guessing about holdovers ShaoKahn points out. I like the Kahles 1-6X big time, can adjust it down to 1X for shorter distances, but I am not as fast with it in target acquisition and sight alignment as with a red dot. That could easily just be operator shortcomings.

Wasn't aware of the EOTech EXPS3-4, will look into that.

Really appreciate the contributions.

You say in your first post this optic is for competition with targets out to 400 yards. As I stated earlier, a red dot, even with a tripler wouldn't even be on my radar. Especially seeing as how you already own a 1-6 Kahles.

How many 3 Gunners do you see running red dots and triplers that aren't shooting Limited division? Nearly zero. The only ones doing it just haven't bought a scope yet. Believe me, with a little practice you will be just as fast running that scope with both eyes open on 1x as you would a straight red dot. 3 Gun guys are pretty fast with them. And you will have a proper reticle and magnification for targets out to 400 yards. If you are competing against guys running 6x and 8x scopes, you are going to get your ass handed to you running a red dot.

 

[Roslyn]

That is exactly why I asked the question. I see the magnifiers on rigs, but it hasn't been obvious to me why guys use them. The Kahles is a really nicely designed scope, could be I just need to be better operating with it.

The match I was thinking of was not a proper 3 gun match, was 2 gun and had 10 inch plates at 350 yards. Those appear very small at that distance through a red dot, to me at least. That was the genesis of my original question. I happened to bring the AR that had the MRO on it, not realizing the distances we would be shooting. Found myself holding off the target to find it and then drifting onto it for the shot. No bueno.

 

[Back Spin]

In my mind SWAT is entering buildings. Even outside I could hardly see them shooting any distance that a red dot alone wouldn’t get it done. I guess i am wrong.

You’re not wrong. The magnifier would be more for gathering intel on a perimeter or at a distance, rather than shooting. Whether it’s the best tool for the job is debatable.

 

[Birddog6424]

You’re not wrong. The magnifier would be more for gathering intel on a perimeter or at a distance, rather than shooting. Whether it’s the best tool for the job is debatable.

Haha, yeh, they have these things called "binoculars"

 

[TonyTheTiger]

How many 3 Gunners do you see running red dots and triplers that aren't shooting Limited division?

Zero, in any division.
As good as LPVO's are these days I can't believe magnifiers are still in production.

 

[Birddog6424]

That is exactly why I asked the question. I see the magnifiers on rigs, but it hasn't been obvious to me why guys use them. The Kahles is a really nicely designed scope, could be I just need to be better operating with it.

The match I was thinking of was not a proper 3 gun match, was 2 gun and had 10 inch plates at 350 yards. Those appear very small at that distance through a red dot, to me at least. That was the genesis of my original question. I happened to bring the AR that had the MRO on it, not realizing the distances we would be shooting. Found myself holding off the target to find it and then drifting onto it for the shot. No bueno.

2 Gun is a lot of fun. I've shot a few. The shotty in 3 Gun is the most time consuming of the weapons. It needs to be a specialized high capacity semi auto with the loading port hogged out. And you have to practice those loads. So entry level shooters really get killed on time on the shotgun. So 2 Gun is simplified, just bring an AR and a handgun. Other than having some mags, you don't need to specialize it too much to be competitive.

Having said that, long range targets or small close targets are still the big time burner in 2 Gun. It's just not a red dot sport unless you have your heart set on one. If it's something you think you will want to do more of, and I recommend it highly as a means to becoming a very good shooter, then take the time and practice up a bit with the 1-6. You'll be glad you did at the next match.

 

[wade2big]

Zero, in any division.
As good as LPVO's are these days I can't believe magnifiers are still in production.

Night vision would be a very good reason why guys would rather have a red dot on their rifle. A magnifier would bring it up to snuff for further engagements. There are guys out there who don’t play games with their rifles ?

There are lasers and illuminators t where the rifle doesn’t even need to be shouldered but there are extra high mounts for red dots so guys can get down to look through it while wearing night vision.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

Night vision would be a very good reason why guys would rather have a red dot on their rifle. A magnifier would bring it up to snuff for further engagements. There are guys out there who don’t play games with their rifles ?

There are lasers and illuminators t where the rifle doesn’t even need to be shouldered but there are extra high mounts for red dots so guys can get down to look through it while wearing night vision.

Good thing we have operators like you to enlighten us.
FWIW on the occasion I get suckered into reading an article by some super special secret squirrel operator like Lamb, Vickers, Defoor etc. they are all firmly in either the red dot or LPVO camp. No one advocates magnifiers.

 

[Back Spin]

Speaking of special ops and magnifiers...



I guess I won’t be getting that Scalar Works mount...

 

[Centuriator]

Obvious these guys are all a bunch of secret-squirrel operators...just a bunch of mall ninjas.

R.I.P. US Navy Seal Brian Bill....

 

[Centuriator]

Just another amateur...

 

[Centuriator]

And, for the ultimate mall-ninja, check out this guy who is on an airsoft team known as DEVGRU.

 

[Centuriator]

Now as for the claims about former SPEC OP types teaching today...much respect for Vickers and Lamb, but, when they were active duty they did not have the option of a magnifier behind a holo sight. And frankly, if you actually talked to them, as I have, you would learn quickly they advocate the right tool for the job. The mission determines equipment choice, that's why Uncle Sugar lets these guys fill their weapons lockers with whatever they think they may need.

 

[Frank_Castle]

Am considering adding a 3X magnifier to an AR to complement a Trijicon MRO red dot. Are there features of magnifiers that you have found really make a difference in every day use? This is for competition, not Mil/LE use, if that matters; and for shooting out to around 400 yards. Want to include mounting choices in my question, if anyone reading this believes that deserves some comment. The flip down, or flip to side or however we refer to them seem like a good obvious idea; but possible in real use cases they just get in the way.

I have a Kahles variable 1-6X on another rig and like it. May be I should just stay with that approach and use the red dot for matches at shorter distances? Thinking of the magnifier because small targets at distance just too damn hard to see (for me at least) to set up an accurate shot. Maybe I am just asking too much of a red dot to be thinking of shooting it beyond 200 yards?

Appreciate any advice or perspective on this. Thx.

I realize this is an old thread and you may have discovered this already. But I wanted to share my experience with the red dot MRO and a magnifier. Perhaps save someone from wasting funds. MRO dot will appear as a smear unless you get the "HD MRO". Holosun does remain clear. About 4:47- the reviewer seems to move on. (nothing to see here) I have similar smear results in 2 MRO red dot with other brand magnifier.

 

[JWG]

Speaking of special ops and magnifiers...



I guess I won’t be getting that Scalar Works mount...

I have literally NEVER had zero shift using a G33 and T2. I tested it at 50 yards because at 50, I shoot the same groups with or without the magnifier.

I tried it with mag, and without mag. No deviation.
I tried it with magnifier lined up and zeroed. No deviation.
I tried it with magnifier using the spacer, for a mechanical misalignment. No deviation.
I tried it with the magnifier adjusted so I could barely see the dot for the scope shadow, and then I moved it the other diagonal the same way. No deviations.

*At 50 yards, I shoot 0.75-1" groups with good ammo typically, with or without a magnifier, once warmed up, 10 shot groups. Using the above method, I have quantified the POI shift on the first round that MI mounts gave me, the lack thereof with Bobro, etc. I am confident in my results. I have tested multiple T2's and G33's.

Literally NOTHING I did would open the group up beyond a cluster of touching holes basically, or move that cluster around.

I think the reason this guy saw a zero shift is because Aimpoint's T2 has extremely well controlled and minimal parallax shift, while Eotech (which this guy says is all he used because it's all he liked), has significant shift. I remember Kyle Lamb telling me in class once that some of the Eotechs they got had a shift that could be measured in FEET at 100m, and he recommended using the front sight as a reference to mitigate this, when zeroing.

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