Advice on Flyers

[drum13]

Wasn't sure where to post this. Search didn't help much.

Wondering if a new trigger would cause flyers (fliers?)? Just installed a Timney 510 in a 20" 5R and suddenly have a flyer in each grouping. One shot out of five goes wide right. Trigger is the only thing different.

Brass has is on at least 3X reloaded, using same recipe w/175 SMK HPBT as usual. Rifle hasn't been cleaned in quite a while either but I find it shoots better a little dirty.

I'd easily attribute to operator error but happened in several groupings group and usually never that bad of a shot.

This is a 5-shot group @ 200 yds. Got several of these almost exactly the same flyer.

I'm still learning. Thanks for the help.

Oh, it was a bit windy but isn't this a bit extreme wind drift at 200 yds.?

 

[Cigarcop]

Re: Advice on Flyers

Every box of bullets has some stinkers in it...meaning there are some out of the norm, they can be WAY out too....depending on how you measure your bullets will decide if you can identify them & rule them out for competition or grouping when trying to find loads. I would use these bullets for fowling purposes only.

 

[The Surgeons Ghost]

Re: Advice on Flyers

What did it group like before the trigger.

Gentleman above is right, common to get a flier in a box of manufactured loads.

Are they always low and right? If they are, find that hard to believe it is in box of ammo. Always low and right means consistency. Fliers are usually inconsistent from the average.

 

[shoot4fun]

Re: Advice on Flyers

Did you torque the screws to 65 inch pounds when you put the BA back in the stock?

 

[VisionPro Shop]

Re: Advice on Flyers

Hi,

Have someone else shoot with exact same conditions (and don't tell them about your concern) and see how their groupings look.

 

[drum13]

Re: Advice on Flyers

The rounds all were my handloads. Brass was mostly Federal w/a few Remington and Winchester mixed in. Was gonna blame my reloads cause some of the brass has been reloaded several times now (but trimmed, chamfered, etc).

Yes, they're always going low right. Normally the rifle shoots perfect and never had this happen - unless I fk-up the shot and I definitely know as soon as it happens.

Yep, torqued the bolts. Not to 65 but a little less.

 

[The Surgeons Ghost]

Re: Advice on Flyers

1. Reinstall the old trigger, run the same loads through the gun. Post what you find out.

2. Make up some new rounds with new brass, etc and shoot the rifle again. Once with the old trigger and again with the Timney. Post what you find.

I really don't see this as being the trigger, although it isn't impossible.

With the shot going low and right this tells me that there is some consistency in what is going on. The only consistent items that I would look at right now are the loads and you as the shooter. I don't feel it is you, at this point.

 

[Slinky001]

Re: Advice on Flyers

If you look at where your "flyer" is, that may give you an indication that it is possibly not the rifle or the reloads.

The four o'clock position is consistent with a trigger jerk, yank or whatever you wan to call it with a right handed shooter.

While you may not realize you are doing it, this is something that happens a lot when your trying to squeeze out the best groups that you can. Its hard to back off the trigger sometimes and you wait a little longer than you should to send the round down range.

If it is consistently in that area and you are right handed, this is a possiblity.

As someone else stated, have another shooter that you trust fire your weapon and see what they come up with.

food for thought anyway!!
Brian

 

[4ester]

Re: Advice on Flyers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Nightshift</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The rounds all were my handloads. Brass was mostly Federal w/a few Remington and Winchester mixed in. Was gonna blame my reloads cause some of the brass has been reloaded several times now (but trimmed, chamfered, etc).

Yes, they're always going low right. Normally the rifle shoots perfect and never had this happen - unless I fk-up the shot and I definitely know as soon as it happens.

Yep, torqued the bolts. Not to 65 but a little less. </div></div>

Not sure if this one thing is causing your fliers but reloading with different brass manufacturers will not help your accuracy. Pick up a lot and stick with one. One change like that can make the difference between a sub moa load and a shotgun.

And like others have said check torque on your action screws and also make sure your paralax is adjusted correctly on your scope.

And I agree with above. Jerking the trigger will cause a pull to the right.

 

[drum13]

Re: Advice on Flyers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Slinky001</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you look at where your "flyer" is, that may give you an indication that it is possibly not the rifle or the reloads.

The four o'clock position is consistent with a trigger jerk, yank or whatever you wan to call it with a right handed shooter.

While you may not realize you are doing it, this is something that happens a lot when your trying to squeeze out the best groups that you can. Its hard to back off the trigger sometimes and you wait a little longer than you should to send the round down range.

If it is consistently in that area and you are right handed, this is a possiblity.

As someone else stated, have another shooter that you trust fire your weapon and see what they come up with.

food for thought anyway!!
Brian
</div></div>

Not ruling out my lack of proper technique. You might be right but this has never happened before. Not to that degreee anyway. When I pull a shot I usually realize it instantly and never drifts so far off target.

Could you elplain what you mean by "back-off" the trigger? I got the new Timney set pretty light, so don't really feel as though it was yanked. Thanks!

 

[Slinky001]

Re: Advice on Flyers

by "back off" all I mean is to pass on the shot. Take another breath reset yourself and go at it again.

Sometimes you fight so hard to break a shot that you will stay on the sight too long, hold you breath too long and think that you have to release it when all you are doing is making it harder to complete by straining mentally or physically.

I used to shoot a ton of palma and even with a totally tricked out rifle and every top notch part that I could buy, I would still occassionally do this and as soon as the target came up I knew why it was in that location.

If your next shot goes right back into the group, I would equate it to driver error and try experimenting with trigger control.

Thats all I meant!

 

[Nostradumbass]

Re: Advice on Flyers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Slinky001</div><div class="ubbcode-body">by "back off" all I mean is to pass on the shot. Take another breath reset yourself and go at it again.

Sometimes you fight so hard to break a shot that you will stay on the sight too long, hold you breath too long and think that you have to release it when all you are doing is making it harder to complete by straining mentally or physically.

I used to shoot a ton of palma and even with a totally tricked out rifle and every top notch part that I could buy, I would still occassionally do this and as soon as the target came up I knew why it was in that location.

If your next shot goes right back into the group, I would equate it to driver error and try experimenting with trigger control.

Thats all I meant!

</div></div>
This is solid information! I can attest to this. Your attitude can affect a group.....whether you're angry, frustrated, sad, sick, tired, wired, etc....
Sometimes a dry fire regiment can help. Ive noticed myself subconsciously flinching, or twitching during a string of high power shooting.
Take care!

 

[drum13]

Re: Advice on Flyers

Ahhh, Thanks. I know exactly what you mean now.

There's definitely times I do strain (neck especially) to get a shot off. Now I can be aware when I'm doing it....and back off & reset. What great advice!!

Could too light of a trigger pull screw you up this much? Was right on target when the shot went off then saw the hit (flyer) and was dumbfounded. Even missed on a piece of steel that I can always hit at 200 in my sleep. frustrating, maybe I'll also put the 40X back in and try as suggested.

 

[The Surgeons Ghost]

Re: Advice on Flyers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Nightshift</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ahhh, Thanks. I know exactly what you mean now.

There's definitely times I do strain (neck especially) to get a shot off. Now I can be aware when I'm doing it....and back off & reset. What great advice!!

Could too light of a trigger pull screw you up this much? Was right on target when the shot went off then saw the hit (flyer) and was dumbfounded. Even missed on a piece of steel that I can always hit at 200 in my sleep. frustrating, maybe I'll also put the 40X back in and try as suggested. </div></div>

Could a "too light trigger pull" cause what you are seeing? Mechanically speaking, no. But, it could be light enough that it is showing your technique.

What was the pull weight of the 40 X ?


That is what I would do, place the old trigger on and see what you get.

I don't see this as being technique, at least not yet.

 

[swil]

Re: Advice on Flyers

is the "wide" shot the same shot in the sequence? ie always the 3rd shot or always the 5th shot? If this is the case, I would agree with Slinky001's advise to get off the gun and reset. Something else to try if you are firing for groups, drop a dummy round in the mag. If you pay attention to the recticle when the gun goes click instead of boom, it may show a defect in technique.

 

[drum13]

Re: Advice on Flyers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: The_Surgeon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...... it could be light enough that it is showing your technique.

What was the pull weight of the 40 X ? </div></div>
Mabye it's exaggerating my technique errors.

Not sure what the 40X weight was, don't have a pull weight guage. I adjusted it to where it felt right and didn't cause tension - but it always seemed to creep it's way back up to being heavy. Never a consistant pull. Got an okay deal on the timney 510 so thought I'd try it.

 

[drum13]

Re: Advice on Flyers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Swil</div><div class="ubbcode-body">is the "wide" shot the same shot in the sequence? ie always the 3rd shot or always the 5th shot? If this is the case, I would agree with Slinky001's advise to get off the gun and reset. Something else to try if you are firing for groups, drop a dummy round in the mag. If you pay attention to the recticle when the gun goes click instead of boom, it may show a defect in technique.</div></div> Seemed like the flyer would be either the 1st or 3rd shot in a 5-shot group.

The barrel was pretty hot but it's never been an issue with this gun.

I will try sneaking in a dummy round - will be good training anyway. Thanks for the advice.

 

[FCS]

Re: Advice on Flyers

Mixed brass isn't helping you any either. Different case capacity between the brands of brass you mentioned = different velocity = different wind drift = different elevation. Elevation at 200 most probably isn't going to be that much but farther out you go, bigger the difference will be.
Fed to Win is nearly 1 - 1.3 gr difference in case capacity, meaning if powder charge is same in both the Fed will be running faster then the Win. I don't run much Rem brass but IIRC the case capacity is closer to Win then Fed.

3rd loading on brass, neck tension could be different unless annealing as brass is starting to work harden. Every piece of brass have same # of firings on it?

Might be worth trying all one brand of brass, then mixing brass next time you shoot groups. See what, if any difference, shows up in group size.

 

[drum13]

Re: Advice on Flyers

Man, I got alot to learn. Had no idea about the different brass capacities.

The brass I reload has all been once-fired factory ammo. It has all been reloaded more than once and most at least 3X. Not into annealing but always use the Lee Collet neck die to size.

Just looked over the brass used that day and you might be right. Had a flyer (wide-right) avg. 1 out of every 5 shots.
Fired 60-rounds total. 48 cases were Federal match the other 12 were Winchester and Remington mixed.
So 12/60 = 1/5 .... might explain it - Still not ruling out my trigger finger though!

Just reloaded all the same brass with same recipe as last time. I'll go shoot it all again today and report back with the results.

Thanks guys, really got some great info out of this thread!!