Advice on Gunbroker rifle purchase gone bad

[0_Shiv]

I could use this forum's advice on a problem I'm having with a rifle I purchased through Gunbroker. A few weeks ago I purchased, a used custom KMW built R700 308. Manners Stock. Very nice. This was to be my first precision rifle to learn on. Bought a great used older scope on the hide to go on it. I should have waited and bought a gun off the hide, but I hadn't found you guys yet.

When I went to the FFL in California to do the paperwork. Take the test. Pay the tax, and then wait ten more days to pick up the gun. I did all the paperwork, and then when they brought out the gun the bolt was missing. They claim the rifle must not have come with it, and told me to contact the seller.
I emailed the seller, and was told it was in the box, and the receiving FFL must have lost it. Both are parties claiming that the other FFL is responsible.

Gunbroker says the seller is responsible, but they flat out refused to take the rifle back. This is my first FFL transfer. I've always bought guns through a local dealer before, but since COVID there is no inventory, plus I just moved to CA, and have no relationships here, so thought I would try Gunbroker.
Never again.

Also, it turns out that replacing a bolt is not trivial in the way I'm used to with ARs. It basically has to be custom made and gunsmith fit.

Thanks in advance for any advice.

 

[Newbie2020]

If it’s a Rem700, a replacement bolt isn’t cheap but I don’t see why it needs to be “custom fit” by a smith?

 

[dirthead1]

Did you pay with a credit card? If so, might be able to dispute the charge.

 

[0_Shiv]

I paid with money order, unfortunately.

 

[just browsing]

Damn, sorry for the headache OP.

Hopefully there is some resolution before it comes to buying a new bolt, but PTG makes 700 bolts that should not require head spacing.

I’m also positive that if you put out a ‘WTB’ ad here, there would be more than a few folks willing to help out with old bolts that they might floating around.

Should be plenty of options to get you back up and running quickly.

 

[craigos]

you have protection when you buy on GB. I used it once on a G36 optic worth $1k. Dude had 2, i bought the NIB one but he sent me a different one. Sent emails to him for 1 month, then followed the buyers protection steps and bang, got my money back and sent back the POS.

Seller should of taken a picture to ensure it indeed was what was sent - i always do this.

I only use FFLs i know better than my family doctor - as there are a few out there that are scumbags.

 

[0_Shiv]

If it’s a Rem700, a replacement bolt isn’t cheap but I don’t see why it needs to be “custom fit” by a smith?

Something to do with headspacing? I may be misinformed. I'm used to ARs, which go together like Lego. Only source I could find for a new one was Pacific Tool and Gauge. They make it for you to order.

 

[0_Shiv]

you have protection when you buy on GB. I used it once on a G36 optic worth $1k. Dude had 2, i bought the NIB one but he sent me a different one. Sent emails to him for 1 month, then followed the buyers protection steps and bang, got my money back and sent back the POS.

Seller should of taken a picture to ensure it indeed was what was sent - i always do this.

I only use FFLs i know better than my family doctor - as there are a few out there that are scumbags.

Right? With almost no exceptions, everyone I have ever met in the gun world are just the kindest, most straight up, salt of the earth people. But every gun store/FFL is super shady. Is it the margins are so low that honest decent people can't be bothered?

 

[0_Shiv]

They tossed the box before I went in the first time. 10 days is CA mandatory wait period for the "instant" BG check.

 

[hafejd30]

They tossed the box before I went in the first time. 10 days is CA mandatory wait period for the "instant" BG check.

Sorry to see it work out this way for you. Good chance it was in the box and they didn’t see it.

I was under the impression as well that a R700 bolt had to be headspaced to the barrel/chamber. Do the PTG ones somehow avoid that? Just wondering for future reference

 

[nn8734]

Something to do with headspacing? I may be misinformed. I'm used to ARs, which go together like Lego. Only source I could find for a new one was Pacific Tool and Gauge. They make it for you to order.

More than likely you will have to have a new bolt head spaced. 700 actions are dimensionally different enough between individual units that they are all headspaced to their respective barrels. This is from talking to two different gun smiths on different occasions about mating bolts to r700 actions.

Thst said, sorry to hear this happened to you. I would check into Gunbroker’s protections for any recourse you may have.

 

[hafejd30]

What really sucks is that bolt was probably trued (I believe is the correct term) being it was a custom built gun. Even if a factory one headspaces correctly the tolerances on some 700 can be very sloppy.

May be best bet if you need one to contact LRI and have them take care of you. They do excellent work. You can get the knob, fluting etc. I’m sure it’s not going to be cheap but if you intend to keep the rifle and get the best accuracy I’d have them or KMW install the correct bolt

 

[samb300]

If it’s a real KMW built by @Terry Cross he might be able to help you out.

 

[Tim7139]

About the only option now is have your (an) attorney send a letter indicating through their negligence you will sue for rifle price or bolt replacement.
that or you eat a bolt replacement.

 

[Bandit31]

They could have tossed the bolt with the box. Why they opened it without you being present is just poor oversight on the FFL’s part.

Many moons ago I worked at a shop and we’d have the customer opened Up the package for this very reason. An FFL I’ve used locally also does the same thing and doesn’t throw away the packaging/ box until everything is verified to be there.

If I was in your shoes OP, I would press your FFL more so than the seller. Shit happens and the seller could have goofed but I wouldn’t burn that bridge out of frustration.

 

[W54/XM-388]

It's often fairly standard practice for some places to ship the rifle with the bolt removed and packaged with it (as well as transported sometimes that way) to make some people feel "safer".

I would venture to guess the sender may have removed the bolt, wrapped it up and packaged it with the rifle & when some idiot at your local dealer was unpacking they grabbed "the rifle" out of the packaging and tossed the rest of the package without bothering to go through it. By the time you noticed it, the trash pickup was long gone.

We have that happen to us all the time with electronics equipment we ship out, idiots get all excited at the main item and toss out the accessory kit.

I would think it's very unlikely the seller shipped it without the bolt.

 

[waspocrew]

That sucks. I’m sorry to hear that happened. Do they not allow you to physically see the rifle before going through the transfer process? When I’ve done transfers, I look over everything and make sure it’s in working order (or the condition the item was described as) before filling out paper work. I’m really surprised the FFL didn’t do this.

 

[nn8734]

@0_Shiv - did the seller ship the rifle in a case of any kind?

Would think any loose parts/accessories would be fairly obvious and pretty hard to accidentally toss in the trash if everything was inside a gun case.

 

[Shane431]

Why the hell would they throw away the box? I’ve ordered a lot of guns and the FFL always kept them in the box. But I also live in Texas so maybe the commy state has different rules. But I’d bet the FFL threw it away in the box!

 

[diverdon]

My FFL owner takes stuff that's for me and puts it into his personal office until I pick it up. He says there is no other way to stop his guys from finger fucking the cool stuff. Most likely one of the guys there has the bolt.

 

[Quarter Horse]

Your kinda' between a rock and a hard place. Any FFL that throws away a shipping box is not worth doing business with. Call Terry Cross and find out if it is actually a KMW build. If it is, ask him if he will inspect the rifle and give you any recommendations. He is the guy to fit a bolt. I have never done business with Terry Cross but his reputation is stellar. There is 000.000 chance he would steer you wrong.

It seems clear you are not going to get any satisfactory resolution from the parties involved. Time to move on, get your rifle up and running and enjoy it.

 

[squishee]

If my ffl holder opened my item before i was there to witness they would ask me first . They always call me and we open it together.
In fact i bought a wilson combat had it shipped to them and they had me hold it while they put the serial number in their book.
In the safe it goes when they get my transfers.
I agree with others that throwing away the shipping box is beyond belief

 

[MikeRTacOps]

Give Terry a call I'm sure he has an extra Remington 700 bolt in his shop and he could machine it to the rifle he built. I'm not sure what he might charge you but he's a class act and will probably do you a solid...

Mike R.

 

[Odindad]

FFLs have to open the box so they can physically verify the serial number to log in their books. Sometimes the contact information for the transfer is inside the box. Not saying they didn’t lose the bolt.

 

[jcmullis2]

The pos ffl probably took it to supplement his income. He wants more than the small transfer fees. If it’s a Remington shipped in its original box, like many I’ve bought, the bolt has to be removed. What sort of gun dealer opens the box but doesn’t check for a bolt, throws away the box, doesn’t tell you for nearly 2 weeks and says he’s not at fault? A lying sack of shit, that’s what sort.
To return it to it’s previous condition your gun will have to be rebuilt now. Barrel off, new bolt trued to the action, and barrel returned to proper headspace, re cerakote everything too if you’re not lucky. I think it’s safe to say that you aren’t lucky either. A New bolt will set you back about $300 and probably about $4-$500 for the labor. Maybe someone will give you a bolt and re do the rifle but it’s a lot to hope for. What a mess. Sorry about your rifle and the bs.

 

[Jscb1b]

How does a FFL not know what a rifle without a bolt looks like?

 

[6brshooter]

It's often fairly standard practice for some places to ship the rifle with the bolt removed and packaged with it (as well as transported sometimes that way) to make some people feel "safer".

I would venture to guess the sender may have removed the bolt, wrapped it up and packaged it with the rifle & when some idiot at your local dealer was unpacking they grabbed "the rifle" out of the packaging and tossed the rest of the package without bothering to go through it. By the time you noticed it, the trash pickup was long gone.

We have that happen to us all the time with electronics equipment we ship out, idiots get all excited at the main item and toss out the accessory kit.

I would think it's very unlikely the seller shipped it without the bolt.

This. Whenever I ship a rifle or barreled action that I sold, I remove bolt so it doesn't punch a hole through box. I always bubble wrap rifle and bolt separately, then use packaging tape to tape bolt to barrel. Makes it idiot proof to whoever is unpacking rifle at ffl.

 

[Baron23]

FFLs have to open the box so they can physically verify the serial number to log in their books. Sometimes the contact information for the transfer is inside the box. Not saying they didn’t lose the bolt.

This ^^. Same experience I have. The FFL I use has a small room safe that they keep these firearms in but they def open the box to pull the serial number and log it then put it right back in lock up.

And, as mentioned, usually (often) the contact info for the buyer is inside the box.

I bought a new Rem 700 5 R in .308 and I remember that when I went to pick it up, I was momentarily panicked as I didn't see the bolt in the rifle nor was it glaringly obvious that it was in the box. It was in a deep cut out in the foam and not at all easily seen.

The FFL in this case had absolutely NO business doing anything other than taking a quick peek to record the serial number. I agree with many others here, they tossed it with the box and I suggest you not do business with them ever again (and get the fuck out of California!! haha).

@MikeRTacOps has the best suggestion....reach out to @Terry Cross and I"m sure he can help you get this gun back in working order. Yes, it will cost you something but you are where you are. The only question still open is how to resolve this and get your rifle working.

I've only bought some accessories from Mr. Cross but I had some questions and dang if he didn't respond to my piddling little concerns and reply personally, fully, and promptly on more than one occasion. And at the time I had no idea of the size of the operation he ran or really who he or KMW were. The items that I purchased are, to my mind, first class.

And, like many others here, I have seen him reach out on the forum to help others; just as we have seen Mike R do also.

We don't know each other from Adam, but if I ever have a chance to do Mr. Cross a solid, you can take it to the bank that I will indeed.

@0_Shiv - I think Mike R has the right approach for you....get in touch with Mr. Cross and see if he will help you fix this situation. You got screwed. It happens. Now the only thing you can do is fix the gun up and go enjoy it.

Cheers

 

[Waorani]

Keep in mind Mr. Cross got whacked pretty good by Hurrican Laura a few weeks ago. Not sure if he's back up to full speed yet.

 

[MikeRTacOps]

PM inbound...

Mike R.

 

[0_Shiv]

The pos ffl probably took it to supplement his income. He wants more than the small transfer fees. If it’s a Remington shipped in its original box, like many I’ve bought, the bolt has to be removed. What sort of gun dealer opens the box but doesn’t check for a bolt, throws away the box, doesn’t tell you for nearly 2 weeks and says he’s not at fault? A lying sack of shit, that’s what sort.
To return it to it’s previous condition your gun will have to be rebuilt now. Barrel off, new bolt trued to the action, and barrel returned to proper headspace, re cerakote everything too if you’re not lucky. I think it’s safe to say that you aren’t lucky either. A New bolt will set you back about $300 and probably about $4-$500 for the labor. Maybe someone will give you a bolt and re do the rifle but it’s a lot to hope for. What a mess. Sorry about your rifle and the bs.

That's about what I thought. before doing any research I guestimated: 2-400 for new bolt. 2-500 to fit to gun. strip and re cerakote all metal parts. 150-300. Re-assemble. Then find out if it still shoots 1/2 MOA or better. Plus find a smith who could do it, that doesn't have a 2 year waiting list.

Me sad.

 

[jcmullis2]

That's about what I thought. before doing any research I guestimated: 2-400 for new bolt. 2-500 to fit to gun. strip and re cerakote all metal parts. 150-300. Re-assemble. Then find out if it still shoots 1/2 MOA or better. Plus find a smith who could do it, that doesn't have a 2 year waiting list.

Me sad.

Hopefully mr cross can get another bolt to the specs of the last one or its a rebuild. I’m not a machinist so maybe it doesn’t have to be taken apart. I just don’t see it being the gun it once was without completely rebuilding building it. I don’t buy the missing bolt bs from the ffl and why is he tossing the box. There’s typically warranty cards, safety notices, and bolts in the box. I guarantee you he doesn’t remove his guns from the box and throw them away. Why, because the new owner wants that stuff. That’s messed up. I hope everything works out.

 

[W54/XM-388]

Demand a refund and return the rifle back to him, You should also report the situation to GB.

IF the seller shipped the rifle & the bolt and the receiving gun store lost the bolt, I highly doubt the seller will be interested in taking the loss for what the gun store did & most likely threats will cause them to simply stop assisting the purchaser.
There will be little chance to make them take the loss for what your local gun store did if it was your local gun store that did it.

It might be worth trying to explain to the seller what is going on and ask them to send over any additional information / photos and such that they had as well as details on how they packaged the rifle and the bolt. Perhaps also ask if they can follow up with their FFL to verify how it was packed / shipped and that all parts were included.
Then confront the store about it and see if they will be willing to help you with the cost, (or go actually look to see if it might be lying around somewhere in the back of the store).

It sounds very suspicious that the receiving gun store never mentioned no bolt in the gun, as my one will call me for just about any problem including like if the package has the barrel coming out or such & of course saves all the packaging until I tell them to throw it out.

I'm pretty sure any decent store would have been like WTF is the bolt? Not, just left it for you to discover there was no bolt when you went to pick it up after the waiting period and after you did all the paperwork.

 

[buffalowinter]

I've sold and shipped many guns and am here to tell you I've had 3 cases of the receiving FFL just tossing the box without looking through it and claiming that the missing part was never sent. The fact that your receiving FFL thought nothing was amiss when they had a rifle without a bolt show up...according to them... leaves me less than impressed with your FFL.

 

[diverdon]

Sounds like your FFL likely tossed the bolt in that case, of course there's no way to know for sure but I would venture to say that's the most likely scenario. Raw deal for you and the seller as he has no way to actually prove he shipped the bolt and now has to deal with an upset customer that will possibly result in bad feedback and/or lost funds.

If he has been selling long he will have the exact weight of the package. And a photo to show what was in it.

 

[W54/XM-388]

If he has been selling long he will have the exact weight of the package. And a photo to show what was in it.

I'm not sure how you think the weight of the box is going to make a difference on a bolt?
If you are shipping via UPS or FedEx, you can check the weight and dims from their system with the tracking number. Always rounded up to the next pound.

Add to that, difference in packing material and the amount of packing material easily weigh more than the bolt.

 

[Mauser06]

I agree that it's likely your FFLs fault. And not sure GB or the seller can be had at fault.


Like was said, my FFL opens boxes to figure out what it is, who it belongs to, get the senders info and serial number to log it...but they pack it all right back up and call me...and I go and it's in their office waiting for me. That way it doesn't accidentally end up on the rack for sale. If they didn't open the box, they'd never know what's inside or who it belongs to. I don't think ANY of the senders have put my name on the box. They put the FFL name and address.


Bolt was likely bubble wrapped or something and just tossed with the packing material and box.



Unfortunate. But I don't see there being a resolution if your FFL won't make it right.


I'd press them hard. But don't know that you can actually claim a civil suit being noone can 10000% surely say the bolt was in the box.

 

[Charger442]

FFL receiver lost it/ tossed it. Probably because they are dumb and so busy they don't care.

If the shipper just left it out, it would be an easy fix and easy for him to remedy. He gets nothing beneficial from "keeping" this bolt.


I'd be wearing someone or everyone out at the FFL over this.

 

[ChadChadson]

A lawyer would be expensive, but a small claims summons might do the trick. Nobody wants to show up to court when they could be making sales- I would imagine that if you filled out the paperwork to sue the seller, as well as both FFLs, you’d get something based upon atleast one party not showing up. Not sure how that would work if the seller was in a different state.

One of them fucked up- not your job to discern who it was. Hold them accountable. Maybe pay a lawyer for a consultation (~$100 for a half hour of solid advice may be worth it, and if they didn’t know anything they would likely tell you they didn’t prior to wasting your time.). No lawyer is going to give a damn about a claim less than 1k unless they are purely consulting.

 

[Bakwa]

Contact the seller/shipper and find out how they shipped it. If the bolt was shipped outside of the rifle, I'd press your receiving FFL hard and maybe even threaten them with taking them to small claims court. It's unfortunate but act confident and see what they'll do.

 

[Flightmurse]

This is a really bad lesson to learn on your first FFL transfer (find a new one, by the way), but ALWAYS inspect the firearm before you start filling out the transfer form. If it isn’t as described do not take possession of the gun.

 

[diverdon]

I'm not sure how you think the weight of the box is going to make a difference on a bolt?
If you are shipping via UPS or FedEx, you can check the weight and dims from their system with the tracking number. Always rounded up to the next pound.

Add to that, difference in packing material and the amount of packing material easily weigh more than the bolt.

It's not that expensive to buy a postal scale that will weigh 50 lbs to the nearest gram. Record the weights of the box the item and the shipped box.

 

[0_Shiv]

Thanks so much for all the advice guys. This place is amazing. I think I have a solution, and it will get handled one way or another.

 

[Ravenworks]

About the only option now is have your (an) attorney send a letter indicating through their negligence you will sue for rifle price or bolt replacement.
that or you eat a bolt replacement.

If you have to have an attorney involved, you've already lost.
How many people have you sued,or how much litigation have you paid for?
Around here attorneys are $500 an hour I can't imagine what one in California gets.

 

[MikeRTacOps]

I spoke to Terry he's calling you shortly

Mike R.

 

[kimbergoldmatch]

That sucks. I always specify that I be present when the item is unboxed so that I can photo document any issues as the box is opened and items unwrapped. It saved me $300 once when the person that boxed the item scratched it, there was no damage in the pictures that I made my purchase decision from.

 

[J Scott]

Mike@TacOps, that twice (at least) in the last week or so on this forum you've to come to the rescue to situations that had nothing to do with you. Regardless, you have demonstrated to us all the quality human being that you are. While I've never met nor communicated with you, you've raised the bar higher for me and probably others on this site to simply be better human beings. Thank you.

 

[0_Shiv]

Just talked to Terry and he is going to help me get the gun back to spec. Both he and Mike are absolute class. Thanks to everyone for jumping in with advice and knowledge.

 

[MikeRTacOps]

Just talked to Terry and he is going to help me get the gun back to spec. Both he and Mike are absolute class. Thanks to everyone for jumping in with advice and knowledge.

Your Most Welcome it was just a little something to help a HIDE member out

Mike R.

 

[MikeRTacOps]

Mike@TacOps, that twice (at least) in the last week or so on this forum you've to come to the rescue to situations that had nothing to do with you. Regardless, you have demonstrated to us all the quality human being that you are. While I've never met nor communicated with you, you've raised the bar higher for me and probably others on this site to simply be better human beings. Thank you.

Always happy to help when I can and thank you for the kind words...

Mike R.