Advice on Gunbroker rifle purchase gone bad

[NWnewguy]

Demand a refund and return the rifle back to him, You should also report the situation to GB.

How did you read the post and come up with this as a response? I guess I am assuming that you mean "demand a refund" from the seller on GB?

It's pretty clear that the most likely circumstance, by far, is that the FFL's junior goon boy that was told to sign in the rifle; threw the bolt away. Why should the seller be responsible for that? It's not like someone wants a r700 bolt without the corresponding action. This response, if I read it correctly is nearly as ridiculous as some of the ones on the "What do I do now" thread.

To the OP, sorry for your luck, but it appears that two gurus are stepping up big again to get you squared away!

 

[Changed]

FYI, the ATF required you to log parts as they arrive and depart. Most FFLs open and log large numbers of guns. In some cases they keep the packaging. In other cases they do not.

Its always best to attach the bolt to the rifle in some way.

 

[Terry Cross]

If it’s a Rem700, a replacement bolt isn’t cheap but I don’t see why it needs to be “custom fit” by a smith?

Please explain how you would take a Rem 700 bolt off the street and guarantee proper headspace, primary extraction and function in a rifle it didn't originally come out of?

./

 

[Terry Cross]

Hopefully there is some resolution before it comes to buying a new bolt, but PTG makes 700 bolts that should not require head spacing.

Please explain.
Does PTG make individual replacement bolts to your exact HS needs?

If so, how would you or the OP capture the needed dims from the barreled receiver?

Just curious.


./

 

[NWnewguy]

What is it pal, Someone stole your bread or something ?
I know if an item doesn't appear as promised you can ask for a refund. if it was properly packaged & shipped out to the buyer and it appear to the buyer the same way it was shipped out(package not opened or damaged) then every component should be within the box, Asking for a refund isn't a stupid suggest my good Sir. People don't realize packaging an item matters a lot and sadly this is one of such cases.

I'll type this slowly, maybe it will make sense.

The bolt was nearly 100% shipped with the rifle. What motivation would the seller have to keep the bolt? The low paid errand boy, lunch getter, at the FFL threw the bolt in the trash.

Why would the person that shipped a perfectly good KMW rifle to the address requested by the seller, then feel like he should eat the cost of the rifle and take on the issue of having a bolt properly set up for it, and the expense associated with that? Should he pay the return shipping too?

Tell me if you were the seller that you would be Ok with how that sounds! If you can't see how that's screwed up, I'm not sure I can help you.

Luckily for the OP, he's being helped by the man himself. How much better can it get! Terry Cross---A++++. I already loved your stocks and bottom metal, and now everyone can see how amazing a person and business man you are!

 

[redneckbmxer24]

Demand a refund and return the rifle back to him, You should also report the situation to GB.

Why should the seller eat this when it was shipped to an FFL that was almost certainly chosen by the buyer, and who is almost certainly the one who misplaced the bolt?

You choose your FFL, you deal with their fuck ups.

I give the benefit of the doubt to the seller because what advantage would they have by keeping the bolt? If they simply forgot to include it I’m sure they’d have no problem shipping it to him.

 

[Newbie2020]

Please explain how you would take a Rem 700 bolt off the street and guarantee proper headspace, primary extraction and function in a rifle it didn't originally come out of?

./

I’m sorry @Terry Cross ; I’m a noob and a moron. I’m trying to learn. I know literally just enough to be dangerous. Sorry to hijack this thread in a stupid direction with an ignorant comment. I’ve learned just enough on the hide to know that you and @MikeRTacOps are the man; the threads always get better when either of you chime in.

Thank you for straightening me out.

I’m sorry that you’ve been hammered by the hurricanes. I hope you’re getting back to normal.

 

[Southern Custom]

Choose your FFL wisely is the lesson here. That shop broke my number one rule in business. “Never assume anything”
I hold an FFL for my engraving business and I can damned well assure you that if a box comes in the mail I inspect it before tossing it. And in my case that means slitting the box open from end to end and turning it inside out. I developed this habit when working in the jewelry industry where senders would often tape small parcels of stones or jewelry to the interior of the box. My shop was required to split the box open for this reason. I just carried this procedure over to my gun shop.
Glad to hear it worked out for you. May be a pain in the rear but it’s great to see a community like this come together to help a fellow out. Shame of the matter is that the shop knows exactly what happened but won’t own up to it. Which speaks volumes about what kind of folks they are. A good shop always give the client the benefit of the doubt within reason. It’s just how one should do business.

 

[Tim7139]

If you have to have an attorney involved, you've already lost.
How many people have you sued,or how much litigation have you paid for?
Around here attorneys are $500 an hour I can't imagine what one in California gets.

this would be useful if you had a basic clue. Seems you don’t.
First, a letter does not cost much.
Second, OP may wish to pursue a small claims court option, in which case if the facts are on his side, Gets a judgement, other guy pays his legal costs.
You’d be surprised how few people end up going the distance with a lawyer as opposed to a simple “ lesser of all evils“ solution.
Lastly, lots of folks know a lawyer, related to one, have one in club, etc.

perhaps we could consider your thoughts which is to offer zero but bitch about another possability.

 

[MikeRTacOps]

Terry is 100% correct no doubt. I won’t do any slamming that’s not my style, but I can tell you that with a PTG bolt or a brand-new factory Remington bolt work needs to be done. No body with half a brain would just drop a new bolt in this rifle or any rifle with the same issue at hand.

Depending if there is a positive or negative head space with the new bolt…

• The bolt needs to be blue printed and head spaced properly.
• The barrel possibly needs to be set-back, and the chamber needs to be kissed with
• the reamer.
• The engraving on the barrel needs to be timed exactly how it is now if Terry needs to set the barrel back.

Just a few thoughts but what would I know

Mike R.

 

[diverdon]

Today I am inspired to attempt to be a better person. Thank you Mike and Terry.

 

[Ravenworks]

this would be useful if you had a basic clue. Seems you don’t.
First, a letter does not cost much.
Second, OP may wish to pursue a small claims court option, in which case if the facts are on his side, Gets a judgement, other guy pays his legal costs.
You’d be surprised how few people end up going the distance with a lawyer as opposed to a simple “ lesser of all evils“ solution.
Lastly, lots of folks know a lawyer, related to one, have one in club, etc.

perhaps we could consider your thoughts which is to offer zero but bitch about another possability.

Listen Jimmy, I do have a clue trying to sue over something like this is a non starter.
There are many avenues to handle the situation leaving emotions out of it is a start.

I'm glad that two folks from the community stepped Up and problem is solved

 

[sandwarrior]

The problem is with your California FFL. You may not take possesion of the weapon, but you sure as hell can see it. If they threw shit out, they are responsible. At the very least, your FFL should have inspected the rifle and told you the bolt was missing, ASAP!

If a seller gives you a box, a gun, a separate bolt and a plastic bag to hold it in, then that is YOURS. Not his to trash as he likes. In CA they get too much money for a transfer anyways. Bottom line, file a complaint against your FFL as he did not allow you to inspect (not take possesion of) your rifle.

Gunbroker has a policy of insuring purchases. Best to take it up with them and make sure you tell what happened through your FFL. GB Insurance should cover this. If it's too late, sue your FFL. I know it's tough to send stuff to CA, but there are people that will rip you off through that. CA has the worst reputation for thieves I've ever seen. It puts a lot of good people, FFL's included, in a bad light.

 

[DRT308]

Bought on gun broker with no problems. Have to check sellers references first, GB is just a broker, not seller. Never sign anything before you inspect. You can refuse delivery if its not as advertised.

 

[9x23w]

This is exactly why we have a small claims court. How could any responsible FFL examine a rifle shipped to them and do nothing when a bolt is nowhere to be found. The FFL should have contacted you and the shipper ASAP. They are responsible. Don't waste another second trying to determine who is at fault - GO GET A SUMMONS NOW.

 

[ilpanther88]

Sad.
GB sucks.

 

[Biggie1976]

Terry and Mike stepped up on this. Nice to see we have good people still around.....

 

[Lazyfaire]

Maybe I missed something or am not up on the 10 day rule in CA.
You paid the seller and he sent the rifle to your FFL/LGS.
You go in and pay the CA tax on the rifle, and "take a test"? (What the heck is that?)
They didn't bring the rifle out for you to look at and examine??????
Then came back 10 days later and that was the first time you saw it other than in a picture...........

Man I feel for you and hope that ypou get this resolved to your satisfaction at minimal cost. I just can't believe that the FFL didn't show you the rifle at the beginning. Bad form on their part.

 

[Ledzep]

I've sold and shipped many guns and am here to tell you I've had 3 cases of the receiving FFL just tossing the box without looking through it and claiming that the missing part was never sent. The fact that your receiving FFL thought nothing was amiss when they had a rifle without a bolt show up...according to them... leaves me less than impressed with your FFL.

This crap is amazing to me. I damn near lost a PU optic and mount this way after an online 91/30 purchase. Old duffer had the box in his "throw away" pile with the scope/mount, and sling still in it...

 

[rottenruger]

I could use this forum's advice on a problem I'm having with a rifle I purchased through Gunbroker. A few weeks ago I purchased, a used custom KMW built R700 308. Manners Stock. Very nice. This was to be my first precision rifle to learn on. Bought a great used older scope on the hide to go on it. I should have waited and bought a gun off the hide, but I hadn't found you guys yet.

When I went to the FFL in California to do the paperwork. Take the test. Pay the tax, and then wait ten more days to pick up the gun. I did all the paperwork, and then when they brought out the gun the bolt was missing. They claim the rifle must not have come with it, and told me to contact the seller.
I emailed the seller, and was told it was in the box, and the receiving FFL must have lost it. Both are parties claiming that the other FFL is responsible.

Gunbroker says the seller is responsible, but they flat out refused to take the rifle back. This is my first FFL transfer. I've always bought guns through a local dealer before, but since COVID there is no inventory, plus I just moved to CA, and have no relationships here, so thought I would try Gunbroker.
Never again.

Also, it turns out that replacing a bolt is not trivial in the way I'm used to with ARs. It basically has to be custom made and gunsmith fit.

Thanks in advance for any advice.

This sucks, big time. Great expectations, then disaster.

I've bought on Gunbroker for years, have been blessed with mostly good experiences. One semi SKS would only fire single, otherwise a very good record.

You say both parties are FFLs..........is the seller a going concern you can shame, report to the BBB, or any such???

Good luck!

 

[exoto1225]

this shit really sucks. This is why when I either sell or buy a firearm, I prefer local. If the seller is innocent here, it sucks for him too because GB charges the seller a big fee (5-10%? of the final price) for the sale. He's losing money to GB for nothing when this kind of shit happens. Also, make sure you insist on examining the firearm before doing any paperwork next time. FFL has no right to not allow you to do that.

 

[Reverie Ranges]

The problem is with your California FFL. You may not take possesion of the weapon, but you sure as hell can see it. If they threw shit out, they are responsible. At the very least, your FFL should have inspected the rifle and told you the bolt was missing, ASAP!

If a seller gives you a box, a gun, a separate bolt and a plastic bag to hold it in, then that is YOURS. Not his to trash as he likes. In CA they get too much money for a transfer anyways. Bottom line, file a complaint against your FFL as he did not allow you to inspect (not take possesion of) your rifle.

Gunbroker has a policy of insuring purchases. Best to take it up with them and make sure you tell what happened through your FFL. GB Insurance should cover this. If it's too late, sue your FFL. I know it's tough to send stuff to CA, but there are people that will rip you off through that. CA has the worst reputation for thieves I've ever seen. It puts a lot of good people, FFL's included, in a bad light.

Additionally, file a complaint with the Better Business Bureau against the receiving FFL as it very likely their fault for the missing bolt.
Everything shipped by the seller is the property of the buyer, including the box.

 

[SCSCHNUR]

ANY WEAPON I RECIEVED FROM ANY FFL DEALER I INSPECTED IT BEFORE TAKING POSSESSION. IF THE WEAPON DIDN'T MEET ALL CRITERIA I REFUSED TO TAKE POSSESSION. I NEVER HAVE HAD PROBLEM THEY ALWAYS OPENED BOX IN MY PRESENCE.

 

[bghartm]

Kudos to Mike and Terry!

 

[Im2bent]

Maybe I missed something or am not up on the 10 day rule in CA.
You paid the seller and he sent the rifle to your FFL/LGS.
You go in and pay the CA tax on the rifle, and "take a test"? (What the heck is that?)
They didn't bring the rifle out for you to look at and examine??????
Then came back 10 days later and that was the first time you saw it other than in a picture...........

Man I feel for you and hope that ypou get this resolved to your satisfaction at minimal cost. I just can't believe that the FFL didn't show you the rifle at the beginning. Bad form on their part.

Here in Kali you have to take a gun safety test supposedly to ensure you know which end the boolits come out of. What it really was was a cash grab by the state. Initially it was good for life. Yeah you guessed it kali got greedy and said oops just kidding we came up with a new test the old shit is no good and the new shit is good for 5 years then you have to pony up again. By the way a kali ffl typically charges 100 bucks for his part of the transfer on top of all the usual fees.

 

[NWnewguy]

Here in Kali you have to take a gun safety test supposedly to ensure you know which end the boolits come out of. What it really was was a cash grab by the state. Initially it was good for life. Yeah you guessed it kali got greedy and said oops just kidding we came up with a new test the old shit is no good and the new shit is good for 5 years then you have to pony up again. By the way a kali ffl typically charges 100 bucks for his part of the transfer on top of all the usual fees.

I know you gotta have money to eat and what not, and sometimes there circumstances that make it incredibly difficult, but it blows my mind that people with sense still live in California. I would vote with my feet after finding a replacement job somewhere else. Take it from someone that travels for a living, there's a ton of better places to live and you don't need to make as much money because the cost of living is significantly lower. On top of that, quality of life is higher too.

 

[LanceS4803]

Stories like this make me ill, careless on the part of the FFL. Who unwraps a rifle and thinks, "Wow, they didn't buy the bolt that goes with it?"
Ian on Forgotten Weapons (youtube) had a good video on shipping weapons and how the auction houses avoid this type of problem. They go to great lengths to wrap things together, and place notices inside the wrapping.

 

[sandwarrior]

Stories like this make me ill, careless on the part of the FFL. Who unwraps a rifle and thinks, "Wow, they didn't buy the bolt that goes with it?"
Ian on Forgotten Weapons (youtube) had a good video on shipping weapons and how the auction houses avoid this type of problem. They go to great lengths to wrap things together, and place notices inside the wrapping.

And they take pictures.

@NWnewguy

No doubt California has the most and worst laws in the Nation. However, there are plenty of parts of California I would love to live in. The problem is not the place, it's the people and their laws.

 

[NWnewguy]

And they take pictures.

@NWnewguy

No doubt California has the most and worst laws in the Nation. However, there are plenty of parts of California I would love to live in. The problem is not the place, it's the people and their laws.

I agree with that wholeheartedly. California as a piece of land is amazing in breadth and scope. It's the culture and the politics that drove me nuts.

 

[shoobe01]

Late but wanted to agree that good FFL won't unbox more than to assure that it's /roughly/ what you asked for, then put it ALL back.

Only twice did I have more:

1. Junior lackey opened too much. They saw and stopped him, grabbed EVERYTHING within sight, put in a big bin, we both sorted it all together when I was available the next week. They had included stuff that wasn't mine and I told them, gave it back
2. Box arrived damaged. They asked if I can come down; I am out of town, no. They ask for permission to open themselves. Permission! I give it, they even go so far as to take photos.

And this is two different stores!

Agree then: try to find a better FFL in future as they Should Not Have Thrown The Box Away. Not theirs to toss, but part of your purchase. I have heard of things like hard cases around the gun being damaged or tossed when that was a rare and important item, and the store has to go find another so lawyers don't get involved.

I also go with 97% accident. I have totally tossed stuff here at home that is shipped dumb and the important accessories or other item is in a corner of packaging. For secure items like this, packaging is heavy and you can totally miss a pound or two of real stuff in the corner.

 

[koobs84]

Hey OP, I know I'm late to this thread but word of advice from a fellow unfortunate Cali resident...

If you ever do another purchase like this, inspect the package BEFORE completing any FFL paperwork. This way if there is any issue with it you can contact the seller and determine a resolution, or have it shipped back and get a refund. Although, I have a feeling the shop lost the bolt when they opened the package so its understandable if the seller refuses to take back with a missing part.

Ive done tons of purchases this way. All of the FFL's I've used always had me inspect the rifle/handgun before doing any paperwork, just to make sure there are no issues and all included items are there. I had one one time where they handed the rifle to me and while I was checking it over, noticed the bolt was missing. The guy helped with double checking the packaging and case and luckily it was found underneath the foam padding.

If a place ever refuses to let you look over the firearm before doing any paperwork, DON'T EVER DO BUSINESS WITH THEM AGAIN.

 

[sandwarrior]

Hey OP, I know I'm late to this thread but word of advice from a fellow unfortunate Cali resident...

If you ever do another purchase like this, inspect the package BEFORE completing any FFL paperwork. This way if there is any issue with it you can contact the seller and determine a resolution, or have it shipped back and get a refund. Although, I have a feeling the shop lost the bolt when they opened the package so its understandable if the seller refuses to take back with a missing part.

Ive done tons of purchases this way. All of the FFL's I've used always had me inspect the rifle/handgun before doing any paperwork, just to make sure there are no issues and all included items are there. I had one one time where they handed the rifle to me and while I was checking it over, noticed the bolt was missing. The guy helped with double checking the packaging and case and luckily it was found underneath the foam padding.

If a place ever refuses to let you look over the firearm before doing any paperwork, DON'T EVER DO BUSINESS WITH THEM AGAIN.

It's pretty much like ANY FFL in ANY state. When the rifle comes in, I know the 10 day "take possession" rule is in effect in CA because that's their communist rule. But, it DOES NOT mean you can't inspect the rifle when it comes in.

Be SURE to mention the FFL you did business with every chance you get. And what they did, and why you are unhappy with them. Word of mouth still means a lot in the gun community.

And yeah, Never sign the 4473 before you inspect the rifle yourself. Unfortunately, that puts the good FFL (sender) against the bad FFL (CA FFL that didn't inspect properly). good call koobs84

 

[Scwalker83]

this would be useful if you had a basic clue. Seems you don’t.
First, a letter does not cost much.
Second, OP may wish to pursue a small claims court option, in which case if the facts are on his side, Gets a judgement, other guy pays his legal costs.
You’d be surprised how few people end up going the distance with a lawyer as opposed to a simple “ lesser of all evils“ solution.
Lastly, lots of folks know a lawyer, related to one, have one in club, etc.

perhaps we could consider your thoughts which is to offer zero but bitch about another possability.

I don't think you've had much real life experience with attorneys.

I made a police report because someone threatened to kill me, then harassed me in various ways. That police report caused that man to have a probation violation and he went to jail. The harassment charges were dropped by the DAs office because at the time they were so backlogged and only pursuing felonies crimes. The harassment charge only being a misdemeanor.

I was sued by the 'victim' for abuse of process, conspiring with law enforcement to wrongfully imprison, etc. It went to trial, I won, but I paid more than 50k to litigate the matter and I was denied attorney's fees even though I prevailed. The courts are a crapshoot.

The 50k was only part of the cost, the emotional toll on me, on my marriage, the wasted time, the loss of sleep.

Trial is called trial because it is a terrible thing to endure.

Litigating a matter of a missing bolt in a rifle is a non starter.

 

[Tim7139]

With all due respect, what the flying fuck might this have to do with a simple small claims situation, which I have experience with, which also, I might add, requires no trial.
i have more than A few legal friends and you’d be surprised how often a letter or two yields results.

 

[Wilderness]

I bet your receiving FFL swiped it for another customer’s project or issue. I’ve come across some sketchy places/people in the past. I’m always suspicious though.

 

[Scwalker83]

With all due respect, what the flying fuck might this have to do with a simple small claims situation, which I have experience with, which also, I might add, requires no trial.
i have more than A few legal friends and you’d be surprised how often a letter or two yields results.

Whatever floats your boat. My experiences with attorneys have been entirely negative. A couple hundred bucks because isn't worth the hours of effort and angst it would likely take to resolve the matter.

 

[m5austin]

All transactions took place through the mail -- see if the Post Office will look into it.

Did you have the package insured? They may do something.

Where is the company. If they have some connection to California, you may be able to sue them in Small Claims.

Ask the Better Business Bureau for help.

Did you post a review on Gunbroker?

If you have a friend who is an attorney they may be willing to write a letter to all the parties, or just to Gunbroker and the people you bought it from.

Have you attempted to track he rifle -- who put the rifle in the package?

Finally, the question is how much trouble can you make (and, it is probably more than you think) measured against how much time it will take, and what you may learn about law by the time you are through.

Good Luck!!!

 

[sandwarrior]

All transactions took place through the mail -- see if the Post Office will look into it.

Did you have the package insured? They may do something.

Where is the company. If they have some connection to California, you may be able to sue them in Small Claims.

Ask the Better Business Bureau for help.

Did you post a review on Gunbroker?

If you have a friend who is an attorney they may be willing to write a letter to all the parties, or just to Gunbroker and the people you bought it from.

Have you attempted to track he rifle -- who put the rifle in the package?

Finally, the question is how much trouble can you make (and, it is probably more than you think) measured against how much time it will take, and what you may learn about law by the time you are through.

Good Luck!!!

This thread has long been over. Mike R from Tac Ops and Terry Cross worked together and made another bolt for the OP. The bolt was lost, but these two outstanding gentlemen helped fix the problem for him.

 

[lte82]

I give the benefit of the doubt to the seller

Same. Selling online is pretty crappy these days, and most online marketplaces are set up to protect the buyer, not seller, so it's usually the seller that loses if the buyer decides to dispute anything, even if it's fraudulent. Insurance from UPS or USPS is a pain in the ass too, and usually the seller loses in that case as well. In person sales >> online sales, unless you are big enough to absorb occasional losses.