Advice on my load IMR4064

[Prophet78]

I'm trying to get my load down but I think I'm about ready to change from IMR4064. I posted some information in the gun smithing section because this is a new rifle. Here is my load data.

.308 Lapua Brass.
41.7 Grains of IMR4064
Sierra Match King 175gr

After a match (I ran a bore snake through after both stages) I ran a Chrono and come up with the following velocities:

1. 2640
2. 2714
3. 2689
4. 2663
5. 2690
6. 2705
7. 2680
8. 2722
9. 2657
_______
Avg of 9 2684

Am I not looking for a swing of about 20 FPS maximum? I am double checking my loads before seating the bullet. I'm checking my scale against a known weight, a 55 grain Sierra Game King .224 projectile. If I don't get 55 grains, I take off and let it fall to zero, wait a second or two and zero out. Then place the .224 on the scale again and if I get 55 grains, I re-weigh the charge. Add or remove and re-weigh again. I'm doing a mild crimp. I'm also using CCI Magnum Large primer (I'm down to my last 130 or so of these).

I think I would like to try some of the following powders: Vit 135, Vit 150, Varget and a buddy has real solid luck with AR Comp. Out of all of those I know where there is 3 pounds of AR Comp.

Let me know if you have any questions or comments. Any advice is greatly appreciated.

-JD-

 

[Lumpy Grits]

zero your scale and use a known ck weight.
You have way to much E.S. and need to drop it to 30fps or less.
You need to ck each powder chg weight and never depend on a powder measure to throw extruded powder with +/- .01 gn consistency.
You also need to be ck'n your bullet runout(TIR). You want .003 or less.
You might need to start annealing your case mouth/neck also.
How much neck tension are you using? .002-.003 is all you want/need.
Use a std LR primer.
LG

 

[Prophet78]

zero your scale and use a known ck weight.

Check

You have way to much E.S. and need to drop it to 30fps or less.

E.S.? I understand your statement of the 30 fps, I want consistency. That is the purpose of this post.

You need to ck each powder chg weight and never depend on a powder measure to throw extruded powder with +/- .01 gn consistency.

Check. I'm using a Hornady scale that is only accurate to the .1 grain. I'm not a bench rester, do I really need to go down to the .01 grain? If so, I think I'm going to need to move to a different powder.

You also need to be ck'n your bullet runout(TIR). You want .003 or less.

I'll googlefoo this and see what I come up with.

You might need to start annealing your case mouth/neck also.
How much neck tension are you using? .002-.003 is all you want/need.

According to my research, you do need to anneal, but only after so many firings. This is brand new, essentially out of the box brass.

Use a std LR primer.
LG

I'll probably go to a standard match primer after this.

Thanks.

-JD-

 

[Lumpy Grits]

I anneal after every firing.
The key word for accuracy, is CONSISTENCY. BORING, CONSISTENCY---
You never answered my question about the amount of neck tension your using.
ANY std LR primer you can get, is good for now.
I said +/- .01gn. Whats the variance you using now?
4064 is good to go for .308. I do prefer Varget.
Tune up you reloading routine, and see what happens.
You either want to shoot 'bug-holes' or don't-it's up to you--
LG

 

[Prophet78]

Not sure if this is going to help. Messuring inside the neck, 1st firing inside diameter is .3085. New case untouched is .303. Using a neck gauge my neck is .001 but a new case is -.002.

I did check my chambering using a COAL method outlined in the following video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmDi7v530Og&list=PLA8F5OoMoTwFeKudNeQfErinVtxHoM8qk&index=5

My max COAL is 2.750. I need to adjust my seating depth.

 

[Lumpy Grits]

This is after size'n?
Can't be .3085 as the bullet is .3080. How are you measuring this dimension?
What size(dia)is the neck button in your dies.
What brand dies??
You want the neck ID to be about .306 after size'n.
WHY 2.750 COAL?????????????
Go to 2.800 COAL.
Confused--
LG

 

[ToddKS]

4064 is a good powder for 308. This sounds like a neck tension issue.

Are you full length sizing?

I would also recommend switching to a Rem 9 1/2 primer and see if that helps.

 

[Prophet78]

Lumpy, I measured the chamber. It is 2.750 long. Meaning at 2.80 my cartridges were being jammed into the lands. Here is a picture of a case seated to 2.745.

Here is a picture and you can barely make out that the lands are removing marker from the bullet.



-JD-

 

[Lumpy Grits]

Then your chamber was cut with out the proper leade. Not good--
2.800 COAL is a std that the factory's use for 168/175 smk bullets.
LG

 

[gigamortis]

I did a control test one evening at the range to study ES between just tumbled/brushed neck IDs vs. ultrasonically cleaned brass inside and out. In addition, both brass types were freshly annealed.

I was getting SDs on the brushed neck prepped brass in the mid to upper teens. On the ultrasonically cleaned brass, all SDs were single digit. This test was with identical trickled charges of IMR 4064.

My conclusion from these results was that clean neck IDs apparently provide a more consistent grip on the bullet from one round to the next.

 

[260shooter]

Don't crimp. Use a standard rifle primer, I prefer cci BR2's. Uniform your primer pockets, even Lapua brass needs this. On new brass you should still run it in the resizing die to ensure the neck is round and proper size.

 

[M40_A1]

This is brand new, essentially out of the box brass.

Like I just said in another thread yesterday, new brass is NOT consistently sized, and will give you more extreme spread (E.S., by the way) than brass that is resized after fire forming.

Crimping will also increase your E.S., so don't do it if you don't have to. If you have to crimp, you're probably not shooting it in a rifle that will give you low E.S. no matter what you do anyway

 

[Recreational Shooter WA]

Prophet,

There have been many suggestions of what you should do, but I don't think any of them so far will work at all for your desired result. Ie small ES.

41.7 grains is basically a starting load. It has been my experience that the best ES numbers come from charges near max. FWIW, I load 42 grains with Lapua brass and 175 SMK or Berger 175 OTM.

My suggestion:

1. Determine your max load by loading up one or two rounds in 1/2 grain increments and look for pressure signs. The listed max load by IMR is 45.6C. That is a compressed load so work up from your already established SAFE load.

2. Run an Optimal Charge Weight (OCW) test. If you are unfamiliar with this method, please read about it from the source. OCW Overview - Dan Newberry's OCW Load Development System

3. Go out and shoot your great ammunition.

As others have stated, IMR 4064 is an amazing powder for the .308, and especially with the 168/175 SMK.

ON ANOTHER NOTE, if you can't seat a 175 SMK to 2.800" without it jamming into the lands, you have an issue with your chamber. GO SEE A COMPETENT GUNSMITH BEFORE WASTING ANYMORE MONEY ON SUPPLIES.

Stop worrying about all the small stuff. If your charge weights are within 0.1 grains of your target, you are perfectly fine. To go any further is a waste of time and will drive you crazy.

FL sized, neck only, clean necks, dirty necks, annealing, etc. Agonize over all this when you start shooting benchrest matches.

And the most important question, one which no one has asked. What do your groups look like? Group Size? Vertical spread? If these are good, who cares what the chronograph says. Do some searches on this forum, there has been a lot of discussion about how unreliable chronograph results are.

 

[M40_A1]

Interesting. I just finished developing a 175 grain Federal Gold Medal Match equivalent load in Lapua brass with my latest lot of 4064, and 41.7 grains IS my load.

 

[Recreational Shooter WA]

Interesting. I just finished developing a 175 grain Federal Gold Medal Match equivalent load in Lapua brass with my latest lot of 4064, and 41.7 grains IS my load.

Dan Newberry also posted this info a short while back. Here is a link to the thread. http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...ral-gold-medal-match-load-mk-316-mod-0-a.html

 

[Lumpy Grits]

Until the chamber leade issue is addressed and corrected. All load data is a waste of time and $$$.
IF you can't easily close the bolt on a 2.800 COAL round. You should STOP and have that corrected, FIRST thing.

LG

 

[Prophet78]

Until the chamber leade issue is addressed and corrected. All load data is a waste of time and $$$.
IF you can't easily close the bolt on a 2.800 COAL round. You should STOP and have that corrected, FIRST thing.

LG

I can close the bolt easily at 2.8 COAL. I am getting marks on the bullet when I do. I'm still getting faint marks on the bullet at 2.845.

-JD-

 

[Lumpy Grits]

Then load to 2.800" COAL.
Get a case gauge and set your size die to have your case headspace .003-.005" under the gauges max. when you measure with the 'tail' of your calipers to the case head.
Those are 'scuff' marks from cambering--
LG

 

[Prophet78]

I got out to the range tonight. Had a great time, met another shooter. Got to shoot the bull. Got to shoot my first Surgeon built rifle. Crazy trigger at 1/2 lb. Got to shoot my rifle too!





-JD-

 

[Daryl licht]

knowing they are almost impossible to find I suggest its your primer. too hot capable of pressure spikes that can cause your problem. your load is the exact same as mine except for the primer and it is extremely accurate. if you can find a good match primer I expect your problem will be cured. mag primers are just that designed for twice if not more powder.

 

[Grump]

I will put in a dissenting opinion on your short leade.

IF the rifle shoots as tight as you want, leave it be. You have room to "chase the lands" for thousands of rounds. I've posted before about a brand-spanking new Remmie 700 I met several years ago that had more than a quarter-inch of freebore. Never could get that thing to shoot better than about 1.25 MOA, and 175s loaded out to aaallllmmoooooossssttt touch the lands literally were seated less than .10 into the neck. And they wouldn't shoot either.

The owner replaced that barrel with a 6.5 Creedmoor tube and never looked back. So, no, it was not the shooter or poor reloading methods.

IME, worry about the ES of your velocities only for shooting beyond 600 yards, and even then maybe only if your vertical is unacceptable. Results on target are king here, and I have noticed over three decades that the most chrono-consistent load (factory or handload) is almost never the most accurate at 100 yards or at 600 and beyond.

Using USGI and Federal and Lapua brass, all with almost identical fired case capacities, my load settled on 42.5 gr of 4064. Been a while (working a bunch of pistol stuff), but the last time I was out they were chrono-ing almost 100 fps faster than before and groups were opening up. Might have to back it off a bit. 178 A-Max.

IF that 42.5 load pictured is repeatable and is with those Magnum primers, go ahead and stick with them. One thing I like about 4064 is that in .308 at our charge weights, it is tolerant of weight variation--a deviation of + or - .2 grain of 4064 seems to not change velocity that much.

 

[M40_A1]

Nice groups, but you're getting WAY too many "error" readings (I rarely get any).

1- Get that chronograph out to 15 feet.
2- Put the bullet CENTERED no more than 2-3 inches above the screens (Sight through the bore). Within the screen frame is not enough. The bullet should pass close just above the screens.

 

[mark5pt56]

I noticed he said light crimp--could that be inconsistent?

 

[Prophet78]

I thought I had made it clear before but I'll post up my load.

OAL is 2.745
42.5 gr of 4064
Winchester LR Primers
Lapua brassed, full sized, first time firing. 2.005" in length.
No Crimp

Neck tension is pretty tight, no way to tell what or why. No way to accurately tell how centered the bullet is in the seat. You can probably measure how far the bullet is seated.

-JD-

 

[No1]

Am I not looking for a swing of about 20 FPS maximum? I am double checking my loads before seating the bullet. I'm checking my scale against a known weight, a 55 grain Sierra Game King .224 projectile. If I don't get 55 grains, I take off and let it fall to zero, wait a second or two and zero out. Then place the .224 on the scale again and if I get 55 grains, I re-weigh the charge. Add or remove and re-weigh again. I'm doing a mild crimp. I'm also using CCI Magnum Large primer (I'm down to my last 130 or so of these).



-JD-

Your powder is not the problem unless you run out and can't get any.
What scale are you using that you have to go to all this trouble. You should be using a scale that you trust. Zero it and start throwing charges. If you have to continually re-zero during your loading session you need a different scale or you need to do some minor maintenance on the one you have. If you are fiddling with the scale that much you don't know what powder charge you have.
Ditch the magnum primers and us standard large rifle. I personally use Federal GM210M and Remington 9 1/2.
You did not mention if you are satisfied with the accuracy. I assume that since you are here there is an issue. So???

 

[Prophet78]

Your powder is not the problem unless you run out and can't get any.
What scale are you using that you have to go to all this trouble. You should be using a scale that you trust. Zero it and start throwing charges. If you have to continually re-zero during your loading session you need a different scale or you need to do some minor maintenance on the one you have. If you are fiddling with the scale that much you don't know what powder charge you have.
Ditch the magnum primers and us standard large rifle. I personally use Federal GM210M and Remington 9 1/2.
You did not mention if you are satisfied with the accuracy. I assume that since you are here there is an issue. So???

For the most part see post #24 and #19. I was having issues with developing a load. I didn't have the knowledge to develop the load properly. I thought I did but in the end, I chose the wrong path. I believe at this point, the issues are resolved for the most part and the gun is doing exactly what its supposed to be.

At least, I believe, everything is worked out with my current setup and without changing my setup and spending gobs of money on an annealer and a concentricity gauge, I'm ok for now.

This is my scale:

Hornady Lock-N-Load Bench Scale Electronic Powder Scale

This is the concentricity gauge I'd most likely be looking at:

Hornady Lock-N-Load Ammo Concentricity Gage

-JD-

 

[Tempest 455]

I would load some w/ a good old RCBS 505 beam scale and try it again. I had a Hornday and it was the problem.

 

[Twoboxer]

I'll second (or third lol) that your problem is almost certainly powder charge variation. 505 scale, set of RCBS (real) check weights, will tighten it up considerably.

 

[Splat]

Then load to 2.800" COAL. Those are 'scuff' marks from cambering--
LG

Agreed. I haven't been handloading for a long time but it appears that you aren't jamming it into the lands if you can easily chamber at 2.80" and unless I am missing it, the only marks that I can see on the bullet is from chambering. Not even close to the Ogive. I would suggest getting a cheap Hornady Comparator and see what you really need to be loading your COAL from ogive. I am willing to bet that you can get much better loads if you find the sweet spot on your COAL. Good luck!

 

[wildfowler]

I'll second (or third lol) that your problem is almost certainly powder charge variation. 505 scale, set of RCBS (real) check weights, will tighten it up considerably.

I've got no comments on the cartridge are trying to load so I can't be of help there, but I will say that using a set of check weights with a balance beam scale has ended my frustration with loading in general.

Set your desired weight then verify and/or Adjust the balance point on your scale with the verified check weights in the pan.

No telling how much powder and components I've wasted before I started doing this?

Recheck each time you change the weight or inadvertently "jar" the scale. I manipulate the beam exactly the same way every time when verifying with the check weight. I've learned that when I have to adjust the balance point it takes several manipulations of the beam to get it right.

 

[DanSavage]

Agreed. I haven't been handloading for a long time but it appears that you aren't jamming it into the lands if you can easily chamber at 2.80" and unless I am missing it, the only marks that I can see on the bullet is from chambering. Not even close to the Ogive. I would suggest getting a cheap Hornady Comparator and see what you really need to be loading your COAL from ogive. I am willing to bet that you can get much better loads if you find the sweet spot on your COAL. Good luck!

+1 here.

 

[M40_A1]

I noticed he said light crimp--could that be inconsistent?

I thought I had made it clear before but I'll post up my load.

OAL is 2.745
42.5 gr of 4064
Winchester LR Primers
Lapua brassed, full sized, first time firing. 2.005" in length.
No Crimp

Yes, you were clear. As per your op.....

I'm trying to get my load down but I think I'm about ready to change from IMR4064. I posted some information in the gun smithing section because this is a new rifle. Here is my load data.

.308 Lapua Brass.
41.7 Grains of IMR4064
Sierra Match King 175gr

After a match (I ran a bore snake through after both stages) I ran a Chrono and come up with the following velocities:

1. 2640
2. 2714
3. 2689
4. 2663
5. 2690
6. 2705
7. 2680
8. 2722
9. 2657
_______
Avg of 9 2684

Am I not looking for a swing of about 20 FPS maximum? I am double checking my loads before seating the bullet. I'm checking my scale against a known weight, a 55 grain Sierra Game King .224 projectile. If I don't get 55 grains, I take off and let it fall to zero, wait a second or two and zero out. Then place the .224 on the scale again and if I get 55 grains, I re-weigh the charge. Add or remove and re-weigh again. I'm doing a mild crimp. I'm also using CCI Magnum Large primer (I'm down to my last 130 or so of these).

I think I would like to try some of the following powders: Vit 135, Vit 150, Varget and a buddy has real solid luck with AR Comp. Out of all of those I know where there is 3 pounds of AR Comp.

Let me know if you have any questions or comments. Any advice is greatly appreciated.

 

[mark5pt56]

I knew he said "light" mild crimp-----------

 

[Prophet78]

Ok, I guess it's still not as obvious as I thought or maybe I am still not understanding everything.

On my reworked load up that you posted first, I did not crimp at all. The first loads I did a mild crimp, second work up didn't get a crimp.

Still, issue is resolved. I may play with OAL again after I retest my 42.5 gr without crimp to validate my findings at 2.745 COAL.

-JD-

 

[Prophet78]

3rd load work up. Getting even more fps than before. Ran 25 rounds, all hand dipped to 42.5 grains. Annealed the brass. No crimp. Everything else is still the same. I was going to measure my ogive but I didn't get over to my buddies to barrow his tool. I loaded all cases at once, primed, etc. Single stage each.

1. 2851
2. 2774
3.2775
4. 2723
5. 2695
6. Err
7. 2754
8. 2701
9. 2722
10. 2714
11. Err
12. Err
13. Err
14. 2749
15. 2714
16. Err
17. 2717
18. 2749
19. 2855
20. 2887
21. Hang fire
22. Hang fire
23. Hang Fire
24. Hang fire
25. 2715

Groups were pretty much the same. Temp outside was low 70's.

-JD-