Advise Requested on Paper Patched Bullets

[Dog&Jeep]

Hello Everyone,

A few years back, I got addicted to Sharps rifles. I own a few at this point.
My most recent is Pedersoli Quigley chambered in 45-110. I first shot it using a .458" dia 535gn Postell bullet my 45-70 loves. The previous owner had recommended using .459" dia, and I thought I could cheat it by lubing without sizing. It worked okay, but not quite as accurate as my 45-70.

So if I need to buy a new mold to feed this thing, it may be time to take the leap into paper patching. I have no experience with paper patching, so I'm hoping for some advice on getting setup:
Assuming a .459" dia bore, what diameter bullet should I be looking for, allowing for the paper thickness?

What other questions should I be asking?
I do most of my purchases through Buffalo Arms in Sandpoint ID. they're good to do business with,but since they hate Californians on general principle, I tried to annoy them as little as possible.

Thanks

 

[sirhrmechanic]

I started doing some paper patching about a year ago with a replica Confederate Whitworth hex sniper rifle.

It's not difficult. If you need some paper, a member here sent me a whole ream of the right paper. I have a lifetime supply and am glad to send some.

I found this book was really helpful when I really started digging into both paper cartridges and also bullet design for my Hinson project. Though I can't recall if there was good Paper Patching info.

Item no longer available

The item you are looking for is no longer available.

www.abebooks.com

Absolute wealth of information for the 'pumpkin slinger!'

I also used this for some insight, though the Whitworth "Bolts" are totally different from the .45/70's listed in the article below. So this may be right on what you're looking for.

Making, Loading, and Shooting Paper Patched Bullets

Hope this helps and keep us in the loop as you do this!

Cheers,

Sirhr

 

[Bigfatcock]

The Paper Jacket by Paul A. Matthews

Learn how to bump, swage and cut paper patches the same way they were made more than 150 years ago. You'll see how a paper patch can reduce leading and...

ads.midwayusa.com

Worth the price.

 

[Supersubes]

I paper patch exclusively for both my Sharps rifles (Shiloh). You should patch to bore diameter or slightly less, not groove, using a fairly hard alloy. My hunting gun uses a bullet that is patched to .446, so .004 under bore diameter(45 cal). I use a 20:1 lead/tin, but 14:1 is common too. I patch wet using a 9lb cotton based paper, and fold the base in the Hyde style. I use a grease cookie under the bullet and finger seat the patched bullet on top of that. No case sizing. Always with black powder, usually Swiss 1.5F.

Virtually all competitors wipe between shots using a bore pig, and depending on conditions(very hot/dry), theyll push several. Thats really the key to target accuracy, getting the bore prepped exactly like the previous shot.


Edit: I use .030” veggie wads between powder and cookie, and between the cookie and bullet.

 

[Dog&Jeep]

I finally got some bullets rolled up this evening.

I cheated with the bullets. I bought some pre-made .444" dia, 550 gn swaged pure lead bullets and double-wrapped them with 9# onion paper to get the overall diameter to .45". All of this stuff, plus the patch stencil, came from Buffalo Arms Co. If it works, then I'll pay the $185 for the mold. If not I'll try again with a different bullet until I find the right one.

I trashed two paper patches learning to wrap the bullets, but after that they all came out looking nice and neat. I only rolled up 20 rounds because this first time out may not work well, and I want enough supplies in reserve for a second try with lessons learned.

One thing I'm concerned about is that while the bullets seated okay, the crimp trimmed the paper. May not be a problem, will just have to see how they shoot.

For better or worse I'll have a report tomorrow.

 

[Supersubes]

I finally got some bullets rolled up this evening.

I cheated with the bullets. I bought some pre-made .444" dia, 550 gn swaged pure lead bullets and double-wrapped them with 9# onion paper to get the overall diameter to .45". All of this stuff, plus the patch stencil, came from Buffalo Arms Co. If it works, then I'll pay the $185 for the mold. If not I'll try again with a different bullet until I find the right one.

I trashed two paper patches learning to wrap the bullets, but after that they all came out looking nice and neat. I only rolled up 20 rounds because this first time out may not work well, and I want enough supplies in reserve for a second try with lessons learned.

One thing I'm concerned about is that while the bullets seated okay, the crimp trimmed the paper. May not be a problem, will just have to see how they shoot.

For better or worse I'll have a report tomorrow.

No need for a crimp. Anything that cuts the paper can cause the patch to strip in the bore. Leading in the bore will be immense.

 

[NukeMMC]

Many years ago my dad had an 1874 Sharp's mid-range in 40-70 bn he would tinker with reasonably frequently, including some 4 position slow fire 200yd highpower matches in CT in the 60s. They had to put him at the extreme end of the range, downwind of course, so the other shooters didn't complain so much.

Regardless, he put hundreds, if not a couple thousand, of rounds thru that original barrel. He found the clay content in the good bond paper at the time actually lapped the bore, which was good to a point. Then it started to open groups from excessive bore wear.

 

[Supersubes]

Many years ago my dad had an 1874 Sharp's mid-range in 40-70 bn he would tinker with reasonably frequently, including some 4 position slow fire 200yd highpower matches in CT in the 60s. They had to put him at the extreme end of the range, downwind of course, so the other shooters didn't complain so much.

Regardless, he put hundreds, if not a couple thousand, of rounds thru that original barrel. He found the clay content in the good bond paper at the time actually lapped the bore, which was good to a point. Then it started to open groups from excessive bore wear.

The bore does come out super shiny when paper patching, which makes cleaning a breeze. Seems like it could do some harm, but the comp guys that have been doing it the longest dont seem to report killing barrels, although they're using cotton based paper. Ive read some reports of guys going north of 20k rounds. Holy crap it would take a long time to load and shoot 20k rounds!

 

[cas6969]

^ No crimp, just some neck tension.

Since I'm sure you have a regular chamber and not a paper patch one, you'll likely get the "ring" anyway, so no need to do more harm to the patch with a crimp.


Dry rolling? Damp? Wet? Try all three. (I always rolled wet)

You should slug your barrel to find out the real land and groove measurements. Then you can adjust bullet and paper to fine tune. Or not. PP can be quite forgiving. I started paper patching for my Martini's as they had bores that were an uncommon size. I was able to patch to get closer to what I needed. (mostly fun guns, I never intended to search for super accuracy) I then started patching for .45-70, .45-90 and .40-65 applying what I already knew, or thought I knew.

When I bought my .50-90 sharps I got advice from other shooters and was shocked at the bullet size/mold they recommended (which I eventually bought).I had been patching to groove diameter. With .50 mold I was casting way under and patching to bore diameter. Loading was easier and my accuracy with that rifle was much better than with the others (though that could be due to other factors as well)

Paper patching is a labor of love. I view it as keeping alive a lost art.
After a couple years for me it became more labor than love. lol
I found I was shooting those rifles less and less because of it.
(The PP being a big part of it, but honestly BPCR in general)

Graphite on the patch

700gr 50

That second to last photo show one of the benefits (? lol) of patching to bore diameter. You can seat the bullets way out. The three larger ones are 50-90's, 700 gr bullet loaded with 1F powder, 90-100 grains(?), then 110 grains and 120 grains.

 

[Dog&Jeep]

Thanks. I'll omit the crimp on the next 10.

The results of this testing were frustrating. At 100 yards, I was mostly on paper, but the bullseye remained stubbornly elusive.

I still have components for another 30 rounds. I also have some ideas I want to try. So, I'm not done yet. But if things done improve a lot, I don't see a reason to continue with paper-patching. The mold for the bullets used cost about $180, plus handles. (I cheated and just bought some bullets for these tests.) I'm not going to spend that when I'm getting equal or better results from my lubed bullet mold that I use for my other Sharps.

On a more positive note, I ended the session in a better place than I started it. So, progress was made?

 

[Supersubes]

Thanks. I'll omit the crimp on the next 10.

The results of this testing were frustrating. At 100 yards, I was mostly on paper, but the bullseye remained stubbornly elusive.

I still have components for another 30 rounds. I also have some ideas I want to try. So, I'm not done yet. But if things done improve a lot, I don't see a reason to continue with paper-patching. The mold for the bullets used cost about $180, plus handles. (I cheated and just bought some bullets for these tests.) I'm not going to spend that when I'm getting equal or better results from my lubed bullet mold that I use for my other Sharps.

On a more positive note, I ended the session in a better place than I started it. So, progress was made?

What is your process and load? Like down to the last detail. You have a pic of the bullet? Flat or cup base. The current fad is for a hard lead. Pure lead can have nose slumping issues in long nosed bullets. So when you light it off and the bullet begins the accelerate, the nose lays down on one side of the bore. As it exits the muzzle its way out of balance, and accuracy blows. You should be able to locate your patches a few feet down range. It should look like strips(rifling cuts). Big chunks are bad, and no patch paper at all means it stayed with the bullet.

 

[cas6969]

I was about to ask the same question, we can’t help with no info. Smokeless? BP? Something else? We need bullet info, diameter before and after patching. Photos man we need photos! lol

 

[Crosswind]

Don't mean to change the subject , but is that a Hepburn in the second picture cas6969 ?

 

[cas6969]

Don't mean to change the subject , but is that a Hepburn in the second picture cas6969 ?

Sorry I seem to have missed this at the time. Yes, but only the rear half is original. At some point it got a more modern barrel and new forend. It's half round half octagon, but it's sure not correct. lol I jokingly call it a saddle ring carbine without the saddle ring. Makes a nice hunting rifle though. It was a .45-70 when I got it. It part because I wanted to keep my modern higher pressure .45-70 loads out of it and part because I was in my "bigger more boom" stage, having punched a Pedersoli Rolling Block out to .45-90, I did the same to this. After a while the .500 grain bullets got to me and I started shooting 400gr grease groove, which seemed light by comparison. Those Remington sporting butt plates are no fun.

 

[Skunk]

You should patch to bore diameter or slightly less, not groove, using a fairly hard alloy. My hunting gun uses a bullet that is patched to .446, so .004 under bore diameter(45 cal).

This is extremely interesting.

Patched to bore diameter, or less, what engages the rifling?

 

[Supersubes]

This is extremely interesting.

Patched to bore diameter, or less, what engages the rifling?

Seems very counterintuitive doesn't it? The bullet obturates or “slugs up” when it gets kicked in the ass by the powder charge, and engages the rifling just fine. You can see evidence of this by the strips of patch left on the ground forward of the gun, or by recovering a bullet shot into a soft medium. The lands usually cut the top layer of the patch, and score the bottom layer. It was thought for a long time that you needed a dead soft bullet in order for obturation to occur, but this was found to be untrue, and quite hard bullets are used by PP match shooters these days. This has a side benefit of keeping the the long nose of match bullets from slumping to one side in the bore. Also consider that PP bullets are seated way out of the case, past the throat of the chamber. So 75% of the bullet approximately is laying on the land tops.

Black powder is dirty, you cannot just load bore diameter ammo in a dirty gun, unless you're going to seat deep. You might get round #2 in if the fouling is soft, but not anything after that. You also risk damging the patch if you try. Match shooters wipe between shots, and can get away with working closer to bore diameter.

Random pic of a recovered PP bullet

 

[Skunk]

Thanks for taking the time to answer.

I’ve dabbled in Black powder a little. I have a Shiloh .45-70 and a bunch of the 525 or 535grn (been so long I can’t remember) bullets. Never got great accuracy and have thought about trying to patch something.

My bullets are .458,” and I think I’m doing everything else correctly, but I get oval holes in the target…..

 

[Supersubes]

Thanks for taking the time to answer.

I’ve dabbled in Black powder a little. I have a Shiloh .45-70 and a bunch of the 525 or 535grn (been so long I can’t remember) bullets. Never got great accuracy and have thought about trying to patch something.

My bullets are .458,” and I think I’m doing everything else correctly, but I get oval holes in the target…..

Thats not good. Any idea what your twist? Was your gun built in Montana or New York.

 

[Skunk]

30” Montana gun….

 

[Supersubes]

30” Montana gun….

You using a lubri-sizer, and/or seating in a die with neck tension?

 

[Skunk]

Neither.

I’ve been seating the bullets by hand in unsized cases. Just a card wad between powder and bullet. I bought the projectiles from Buffalo Arms, pre-lubed, etc.

 

[Supersubes]

Neither.

I’ve been seating the bullets by hand in unsized cases. Just a card wad between powder and bullet. I bought the projectiles from Buffalo Arms, pre-lubed, etc.

Ok, if you were doing that I was gonna suggest to pan lube and finger seat.

May be worth measuring the twist. 18 is standard, and should easily stabilize what you're shooting. 16 is an option on new guns, and 22 twist was traditional back in the day. Maybe you have an oddball twist or a defect?

Take some target pics and ring shiloh. Id think they woupd be interesting if it wasn't stabilizing bullets.

 

[Skunk]

I’ll measure the twist the best I can.

Also, I’m not sure how fast I’ve got them going. Not sure they’ve got enough rpm to be stable. If I remember correctly, I was using 65gr of 2F Goex (by weight) and the powder was compressed so the bullet could touch lands. For some reason, my Magneto speed wouldn’t report a speed.

 

[Supersubes]

I’ll measure the twist the best I can.

Also, I’m not sure how fast I’ve got them going. Not sure they’ve got enough rpm to be stable. If I remember correctly, I was using 65gr of 2F Goex (by weight) and the powder was compressed so the bullet could touch lands. For some reason, my Magneto speed wouldn’t report a speed.

They’re going fast enough. By the charge weight its a 45-70? Probably going 1100 at least. I think the spraying lube and unburned powder when the bullet clears the muzzle acts like chaff. My labradar wont pick them up either.

 

[Skunk]

Good to know. The bayonet does get covered in shit….

.45, 2-1/10th to be exact!

Kicks like a jack-ass!

 

[Supersubes]

Good to know. The bayonet does get covered in shit….

.45, 2-1/10th to be exact!

Kicks like a jack-ass!

Lol, of course. Is it a straight stocked gun?

 

[Skunk]

Lol, of course. Is it a straight stocked gun?

Yes, No. 3 I think it is…? Got the heavy octagon barrel. Got it from Bill Goodman.

 

[Supersubes]

Yes, No. 3 I think it is…? Got the heavy octagon barrel. Got it from Bill Goodman.

My first one, a Saddle Rifle, came through him, and Ive got an 1877 on order through him now. If you ever get another, do the Creedmoor target rifle. Option it like you want, and specify trigger weight. They’ve got a short reach to the single trigger(no reaching around the set trigger), and a straight comb with very little drop at the heel. Recoil is totally different to my saddle rifle, which tries to twist itself out of my hands and whacks me in the face. Im hocking that saddle rifle to my brother.

 

[Skunk]

My first one, a Saddle Rifle, came through him, and Ive got an 1877 on order through him now. If you ever get another, do the Creedmoor target rifle. Option it like you want, and specify trigger weight. They’ve got a short reach to the single trigger(no reaching around the set trigger), and a straight comb with very little drop at the heel. Recoil is totally different to my saddle rifle, which tries to twist itself out of my hands and whacks me in the face. Im hocking that saddle rifle to my brother.

I was in Big Timber a couple summers ago and stopped by the shop. I asked about having mine changed to a single trigger and was told it would be no problem. After learning the work might take a year, I never got around to sending it in…. It’s in there somewhere!

 

[cas6969]

I have a .50-90 Hartford model that I probably haven't shot in... enough years that I can't honestly say. I think about selling it, but whenever I take it out of the safe for consideration I think to myself. "I can't sell this!" and back it goes.

I just have no desire anymore to do the other things that go along with it. (casting, patching, loading BP, cleaning BP gun/cases). Sacrilegious in know, but now I wish it were in another cartridge, something I could easily load smokeless for.

 

[Skunk]

I have a .50-90 Hartford model that I probably haven't shot in... enough years that I can't honestly say. I think about selling it, but whenever I take it out of the safe for consideration I think to myself. "I can't sell this!" and back it goes.

I just have no desire anymore to do the other things that go along with it. (casting, patching, loading BP, cleaning BP gun/cases). Sacrilegious in know, but now I wish it were in another cartridge, something I could easily load smokeless for.

You should throw an assortment of photos of it on here!

 

[cas6969]

Oddly, I have a grand total of three crappy phone pics, two taken the day it arrived, the third months later to show someone the wood.

 

[Supersubes]

I have a .50-90 Hartford model that I probably haven't shot in... enough years that I can't honestly say. I think about selling it, but whenever I take it out of the safe for consideration I think to myself. "I can't sell this!" and back it goes.

I just have no desire anymore to do the other things that go along with it. (casting, patching, loading BP, cleaning BP gun/cases). Sacrilegious in know, but now I wish it were in another cartridge, something I could easily load smokeless for.

The nice thing about shiloh’s is they can be replaced, and they hold their value well. If you can get decent money for it, move it, and get something you enjoy shooting. The 50-90 is a punisher!

 

[Skunk]

I wanted a Big Fifty when I got mine…

 

[Supersubes]

I wanted a Big Fifty when I got mine…

Maybe a trade with cas6969 is in order.

They're just brutal to shoot, especially the 90. To match the .45 BC’s you gotta be 700 ish grains. Ive considered doing a hunting rifle in 50 using a 600 grain flat nose. That impact sound would be epic

Ive got a 30” heavy octagon Creedmoor target in 40-82 on order. 45-90 case run part way into a 40-65 die. I’ll use 400-450 gr bullets. Should be an easy shooter.

 

[25ring]

The nice thing about shiloh’s is they can be replaced, and they hold their value well. If you can get decent money for it, move it, and get something you enjoy shooting. The 50-90 is a punisher!

I know a guy that has a Browning High Wall in 50-90, he put 2 mercury recoil reducers in the butt stock. I've sot it and the recoil is reduced considerably on a par with my 45-90 Sharps.

 

[cas6969]

It's another one of those things that when I was shooting it weekly, or more, I didn't notice it at all. When I slowed down on it and only shot it occasionally I sure did. After a few years I finally switched to a shorter "lighter" mold with more nose, since my goal was to hunt with it. I wanted more of a meplat than those pointy 700grs. It was an adjustable mold and that's about where it shot the best. I only had places to shoot (regularly) out to 200 yards, so my game was trying to shoot small groups at 100. Once I gave up on that, "good enough for hunting" was fine, so I switched bullets. I had a bunch of 700gr 110 and 120 loads loaded and decided to shoot them up. I shot maybe 3 or 4 and said "I used to enjoy this?" I pulled the bullets at the bench and fired off the rest as blanks, since there was no way to get the compressed powder out of the cases.

I put an MVA mid range sight on it at some point, but never took any pictures of groups. Any I have are of the buckhorn sights, and working my way up with the adjustable mold.

(although that 1/2" claim looks suspect)