Gunsmithing After years of service, my Para finally decided to be cranky

[Unknown]

For many years a Canadian built, alloy frame, Para Ordnance P13 was my duty gun, and it ran like the proverbial Swiss watch as long as I changed out the recoil springs often enough. However, recently, it has started having two unusual malfunctions that I have been unable to cure, or diagnose, and yes, I did change the recoil spring.

The malfunctions do not correspond with any particular magazine, and if I use the magazine that just malfunctioned in another Para pistol, it works just fine. The malfunctions occur regardless of which magazine I am using.

Malfunction #1 is the stovepipe of a loaded round out of the magazine. Pistol works fine, then a loaded round will stovepipe.

Malfunction #2 is a slide over base stoppage. Just as the bullet enters under the hood of the barrel, the rear of the loaded round will push down into the magazine. The common malfunction clearing of "tap, rack, assess" does not clear this malfunction because the case rim is not under the extractor.

I have used Federal 230 grain Hydrashock. I am using the same lot of ammo that has worked fine for many years.
I also use Hornady 230 grain +p Critical Defense, or my hand-load round consisting of 5.1 grains of HP-38 over a 230 grain FMJ bullet. In all other pistols, these rounds, and the magazines I was using function flawlessly.

Normally, installation of new #22 pound recoil spring solves problems, but this time, it didn't matter. So I put the older spring back in. The fresh spring seemed to increase the frequency of malfunctions, so my first suspicion would be to go to a lower weight recoil spring.

Recoil springs I have in stock for this pistol are Wolff 22 pound, Nighthawk 20 pound, and some of the older more "tired" springs that I replaced but saved "just in case".

I meticulously cleaned the pistol, removing extractor, firing pin, and cleaning down deep in those recesses too.

The extractor looks good and it's lower edge has just barely had the sharp angles rounded so the rounds can slip under it more easily.

Has anyone had to deal with this, or does anyone have ideas for possible solutions. I'm really disappointed that my formerly ultra-reliable duty pistol is starting to get cranky, and obviously, I won't carry it until I can get this all squared away.

I called Para USA, and they just don't seem to want anything to do with the Canadian built guns. I was really disappointed in Para USA's attitude...it amounted to "find a gunsmith". I didn't even get to talk to anyone in their shop.

Any help will be greatly appreciated.

 

[TxWelder35]

Magazine springs getting weak maybe?

 

[Unknown]

Magazine springs getting weak maybe?

That is possible. I'm using extra power Wolff springs in the magazines, and they have always worked well. The magazines work just fine in other Para pistols, and the malfunctions don't seem to be associated with any one magazine. I had thought perhaps something to do with the extractor, but the extractor works well, and the gun will almost feed an empty case from the magazine...empty cases slide effortlessly under the extractor's hook, and extraction is not an issue.

 

[FisherT&C]

Alloy frame? So you mean aluminum? So is it a ramped barrel or is the frame and barrel form a two part feed ramp into the chamber? I'm thinking the barrel link may be causing this, it may have stretched slightly or did you swap out slide releases? You can get link kits and try different ones to find the sweet spot. Also it's possible the link is intermittently binding.

 

[FCS]

Almost sounds like a worn magazine catch, allowing magazine to drop down slightly.

 

[iceng]

I'm with @FCS on this. Possibly a work mag catch, or at least magazine springs or follower. Many potential things to try.

 

[Unknown]

The gun has the a metal magazine release as I found that the plastic ones from Para don't last all that well, so I replaced all the plastic magazine catches. That doesn't mean that the metal one couldn't possibly wear out though... I have a number of para magazine catches, so I will try out ones from guns that work.

The gun has the ramped barrel unlike the original 1911 design where the frame makes up part of the feed ramp. The gun will nearly feed an empty case..but not quite.

Thanks very much for the idea about the magazine catch, I'll try swapping out one from a gun that works fine and see if that helps.

 

[Unknown]

Ordered a new magazine release from Brownell's today just to eliminate that as a possible cause.

 

[clcustom1911]

Can you show a picture or two of the area of your feed ramp(s), breech face, slide stop, and magazine well?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Unknown]

CLCustom: I have tried posting photos, and never had much luck with it. I'll try and see if anyone else in the house has better luck.View attachment 7263414View attachment 7263414View attachment 7263414View attachment 7263414View attachment 7263414View attachment 7263414

 

[Anb618]

Regardless of what the issue is I’d figure it out AFTER replacing the Para as your duty weapon. I wouldn’t carry a firearm anywhere I don’t have complete faith in, let alone on-duty.

 

[Unknown]

Anb618,
Replacing the pistol as a carry gun happened with the very first malfunction. When a pistol that has always run "like a Swiss watch" starts to get cranky, I won't carry it until it again works properly. I was a law enforcement firearms trainer for many years, and I used to stress that with a carry gun, reliability is FAR more important than accuracy. I would rather have a reliable pistol that only shoots 5" groups at 25 yards, than a pistol that is 98% reliable and can shoot 2" groups at 25 yards.

A reliable pistol that shoots 5" groups is more likely to save your life than a gun that jams and leaves you standing there like a fool while you try and fix the jam and the other guy is shooting at you...if you live long enough to fix the jam.

I took some photos, now I have to figure out how to attach them...

 

[clcustom1911]

So, based on your photos, your rounds are nose-diving into the frame and, over the course of time, has caused a peening of the aluminum which could cause the barrel's ramp to not move rearward enough which due to a space and timing issue the co trolled feeding on the 1911 platform causes them to sharply nose up. Result: stovepipes

Fix? Several things: since you already have a new magazine catch on the way.....

1. Take a narrow file and file off the top of the green circled area in the below picture. This will give your barrel area to move rearward.

2. Clean the pistol very well and take off all the stuff that appears to be dried brown/green WD-40 lacquer. Its gummy and over time can effect slide velocity and timing and dimensional tolerances. Proper lubrication is very very important. I've been using 50/50 mix of Mobil 1 synthetic 10w30 and Militec1 for years. WD40 has been the culprit of more pistol malfunctions than I can count.

3. The Federal 230 HST has a very wide hollow point and can sometimes cause issues with 1911's. If the above 2 things and new mag catch don't alleviate the issue, try some HP ammo with a narrower hollow point.

Maybe do the through cleaning and test fire first before taking the file to her. Once metal goes away, it's not coming back.....

 

[Rlandry]

Even though the extractor looks OK, check the tension on it.

 

[Unknown]

The green color cast you see on the gun is the OD green Cerakote I had applied. The gun is OD green with burnt bronze for the barrel, bushing, grip safety, and other small parts. I have never used WD40 on the gun. the lube I am using now is a 50/50 blend of mobil synthetic motor oil and mobil synthetic transmission fluid. If I need thicker viscosity, I blend in a little Mobil synthetic grease.

I am one of those people who believes in cleaning the gun down to bare metal with rubbing alcohol when it gets cleaned, then re-lubricating it. I run the pistol pretty wet, but make sure that the inside of the barrel and magazine area is devoid of any lubricant before loading it up.

Ammo I have been having difficulty with is the Federal hydra shock 230 grain, and the Hornady Critical duty 230 grain +P. Oddly, the hydra shock was ammo issued by my agency and for many years it worked just fine.

However, like CLcustom1911 mentioned, just because the ammo used to work, doesn't mean it always will. Over time, I understand that wear changes tolerances..

TO CLCUSTOM1911: I have jeweler's files I can use to square up the area you circled in green. The new parts should be here within a week...I got a Wilson Extractor coming from Brownell's, and the only place that had a new metal magazine release was Sarco..when parts arrive depends on how fast places ship.

Thanks very much to everyone for taking the time to respond!

 

[iceng]

Guns are like cars. They wear out over time and you have to service them and replace parts. The fact you use Mobil oil products, makes my analogy seem more fitting. Good luck !

 

[Unknown]

The one issue I had with the mobil oil/transmission fluid for lubricant was that it too readily ran down and out of the pistol faster than I wanted. I read that mixing it with some compatible synthetic grease until the mixture reached the desired viscosity helped, so I tried it. They were right, so now I can have anything from straight up grease to thin oil. I finally found a lubricant that is thicker than just oil, and thinner than grease..it works perfectly for what I want.

My new parts should be here by about this time next week and I am looking forward to trying them out and seeing if I have found a fix.

 

[Unknown]

I smoothed off the part of the feed ramp that clcustom1911 recommended, and there was barely any displacement of metal there. It was mostly just a shiny spot.

I have also replaced the magazine catch with a new metal one ( original equipment for paras is a polymer magazine release that I never liked), and installed a new Wilson heavy duty extractor, and a Wolff firing pin spring as I noted that the one in the pistol was noticeably shorter than the Wolff one.

I replaced magazine springs with Wolff 10% extra power magazine springs in two P-13 magazines, and in three P-14 magazines. (My P-14 pistols never did malfunction, I just figured as long as I was buying new springs from Wolff, I would buy a few of those too.)

I swapped recoil springs from a Wolff 22 pound spring to the factory 18 pound spring.

I was going to test it out today,, but because of the Corvid/Corona virus, my gun club is closed until at least April 7th.

I disassembled the pistol completely and cleaned out the very little bit of carbon inside the extractor and firing pin areas of the slide. There just wasn't much in there as it gets cleaned fairly frequently.

I have 18, 20, and 22 pound recoil springs I can test with once the gun club re-opens. Hopefully, my pistol will return to it's former reliable performance. I have handholds, 4 kinds of factory ball ammo, and three kinds of hollow points to test with when I can get back onto the range.

Does anyone have any other ideas/suggestions that maybe I could take care of to try and fix the pistol while I'm waiting for the gun club to re-open?

 

[iceng]

Remove firing pin and spring. Insert loaded magazine. Rack slide and see it if it feeds and cycles. That's your first bit before you get to a range.

Even if firing pin is removed, for the love of all that is holy, practice safety anyway. Safe direction, etc..

 

[PinesAndProjectiles]

I have a Para Pro-Custom 14-45. If you limp wrist it, it does the same thing.

 

[Unknown]

I tried out some dummy rounds in the pistol, and if feeds them fine. The problem is that it fed them just fine before I replaced all the parts. No matter how fast I try and cycle the slide with the dummy rounds, it feeds them very smoothly.

While anything is possible, I doubt the problem is limp wristing the pistol is the problem. When I am shooting my other Para pistols, they function just fine when using the same ammo on the same day that the P-13 malfunctions. It is frustrating as all get out because everything looks as if it should work, and cycling the pistol with dummy rounds works just fine. Maybe if I bought a crystal ball somewhere........

Seriously though I really do appreciate all they input from people in this thread. Hopefully, one of the suggestions will result in success... Thanks again to everyone for taking the time to respond.

 

[iceng]

Hate saying it. When it's up and running, have someone else shoot it too ? Video it in slow motion with a camera ? Phones don't go slow enough, most hand held video camera can do 600fps. Crap quality, but I think we are out of ideas.

 

[Unknown]

Having someone else shoot the pistol is a good idea, but with the Corona virus that may be more of a challenge than previously.

FWIW, I never used to have problems with limp wristing this pistol, or any others...it worked just fine for over a decade. On the same day that the P-13 malfunctions, the P-14's and other pistols work just fine with the same ammo. But, to be fair, an alloy P-13 is much different than steel framed P-14's in terms of weight, and the pistol's inherent ability to fight off recoil due to it's weight.

I guess I'll just have to wait until the range re-opens, and take the pistol back out and try it some more.

Another problem now is that I like doing final testing with duty ammo rather than ball ammo...now, with the corona virus, duty ammo is getting harder and harder to find, so I am somewhat reluctant to use too much just for testing. My plan is alternating ball round, duty round in the magazine and see if I can cause a malfunction.

Again, thanks to everyone for responding...I really do appreciate it.

 

[MiniB]

I am no gunsmith, so take this with a grain of salt. I hope the mag catch fixes everything, but, on my 2011, when I had malfunctions like what you are describing, it was a combination of magazine feed lip dimensions (just wide enough to work in 1 gun, too wide and caused live-stovepipes in another), mag spring/follower, and recoil spring. The slide was running a bit too fast with the weakened recoil spring, and slamming at the end caused the loaded round to pop up vertically (wide feed lips toward the front), and stovepipe. The slamming might have also caused the stack to bounce within the mag tube, leading to the occasional "bolt over base" nosedive. The nosedives are sometimes also caused by the first round grabbing the 2nd round in the stack and shoving it too far forward as it gets slammed into the feedramp/chamber; the hollowpoint might get stuck on the front of the mag and nosedive because of this.

talks about feed lips on a magazine (yes, I know its for a 2011 and you're running a Para, but if you measure all of your mags and do what he says, it might point you in the right direction). Check for burrs on mag tube and the mag follower (I'm sure you take the mags apart, clean and lube everything...all the time). Some say to bend one of the coils close to the follower up, so that the follower places more pressure on the front of the cartridge (to prevent the bolt-over-base "nosedive"). I've never found that to work more than 1-2 stages. Every time I've had that happen, new mag spring, and maybe follower if I'm mad enough.

Recoil springs are easy to change. Sometimes they wear out faster than others; every manufacturer lets a few bad ones out.

 

[Decoy]

All above sounds like good advice. I would try a Aftec Extractor in it as a possible fix/upgrade. Providing the mags don't fix the issue i would suggest the following.

I would clean the chamber of the barrel and make sure it was not too smooth. Many gunsmiths would call me up and complain that they were fitting the barrel and it was working but continued to polish the feed ramp and chamber and it started having feeding issues. The same thing can happen if there is a carbon build up. Both of those reasons can cause the fired case to get stuck and cause the extractor to work harder to pull the round out of the chamber. This causes the slide to decelerate enough going back to cause many issues with the feeding that are hard to track down. (ie it doesn't have enough inertia to strip the round correctly) Polishing the chamber too much causes a vacuum on the walls of the chamber that locks the case in there like two pieces of glass stuck together. Grime or carbon can do the same thing.

A shooter on my squad at the nationals was having the same issue with his open gun that he just got rebarreled, had a horrible first stage. I took his gun to a safe area and took some grip tape and roughed up his chamber. He was horrified, I told him if it didn't work he could shoot my back up open gun and I would send him a new barrel. Worked like a charm and he had zero malfunctions the next 20 something stages. His malfunctions sounded exactly the same.

Of course your chamber maybe opening up with some unusual wear. If none of this works PM me and I will send you my phone number to chat.

 

[want2learn]

i recall smiths on custom 1911 forums discussing Tig welding, milling and introducing a new feed ramp insert for this type of problem....basically optimizing feed angle and quality/reliability of feed.

that said, unless the pistol truly is dear to your heart, there are so many other excellent functioning pistols out there nowadays for very good prices...not sure it's worth the money to do a lot of custom work on that particular platform

 

[Unknown]

This para has been one of those carry it a lot, don't shoot it much guns for many years. I have tried swapping out recoil springs, and normally that would end any reliability issues. However, this time it didn't fix things. Standard is #18 recoil spring, and I would usually install a #22. I have 18, 20, and 22 pound springs in stock that I can try out in the gun.. Usually I would run the gun with a #22 spring, but I am open to trying other springs.

Decoy is suggesting some thing I hadn't previously considered. As the pistol previously ran just fine, it may be that the chamber just needs an extra deep cleaning, so I'll take care of that today. I don't know if it matters, but among the rounds malfunctioning were a number of nickel plated cases from Federal Hydra-shok, and Hornady critical duty. Brass cases also malfunctioned...

As all the magazines have received new +10% power Wolff springs last week, checking the magazine feed lips for excess spread will be done. All the magazines, followers and springs are regularly brushed out, and inspected. I generally don't have any lubricant inside the magazines as I always thought the lubricant would capture more carbon and dirt than a dry magazine would. I could be wrong though, and am open to input.

To review, so far, I have taken care of the following suggestions made in this thread:

1. Cleaned all parts and re-lubricated them. (the greenish color is either the burnt bronze or OD cerekote on the pistol)
2. Installed a new metal magazine catch
3. installed a new Wilson extractor
4. thoroughly cleaned out both extractor and firing pin recesses in the slide
5. installed a new firing pin spring (the old one was a bit shorter than the new Wolff one I installed)
6. inspected the circled area under the barrel feed ramp as suggested by clcustom1911.. There was no burr there on either side.
7. brushed out all magazines, and installed new Wolff +10% magazine springs.
8. Inspected all magazines for cracks, and none were found.

Today I will measure the gaps on the magazine feed lips and also look for any burrs inside the feed lips. I will also double check the inside of the chamber and insure that it is clean, and doesn't have carbon build up.

Once again, I genuinely appreciate all the suggestions anyone posts....I take them all seriously, follow up on all of them, and really appreciate them.

ETA: The Para is not being used until the reliability issue is completely squared away. It was immediately replaced by pistols of proven reliability.

 

[want2learn]

it would be also be interesting to see what happens when you reinstall the original weight recoil spring.

 

[Unknown]

Report on today's findings:

1. The recoil spring that was in the pistol when the malfunctions started was reinstalled about a month ago.
2. I checked the gap at the very forward edge of the magazine feed lips. This would be the last place the cartridges should have
contact with prior to leaving the magazine. 12 magazines checked, and the greatest variance was 22 thousandths of an inch. I
have two P-13 magazines and while these two were among those with the tightest and loosest measurements, there was no
difference between how reliable these magazines were compared to other magazines. As there is no correlation between
which magazines malfunction. All magazines work fine in any other P-14 pistols, and those same P-14 magazines randomly
malfunction in the P-13. I think the malfunction is due to something in the P-13 pistol, and not in the magazines.
3. There were no new burrs or deformations on the feed lips of any magazines. All the magazines had their feed lips polished when they were first received and put into rotation as competition/duty/carry magazines. The insides of the magazines, springs and followers had previously been brushed clean of all carbon, dust, dirt, gunk, oil, unburned powder, etc.
4. Because of input from "Decoy", I took out the barrel, first brushed out the chamber with a bronze bore brush, but felt that was a little too loose to really scrub out any tough carbon. So, I used a dental pick (I bought a half dozen actual dental picks at a garage sale about 20 years ago, and am now down to 3-4) to dig at where the cartridge mouth is supposed to headspace against the inside of the barrel. I got a little junk out of the deep corner of the chamber. What REALLY surprised me was the amount of carbon that I was able to dislodge from the upper part of the chamber. I could feel the dental pick dislodging the carbon, and the white patches I ran through the chamber showed that I had dislodged a startling amount of carbon from the inside of the chamber.

I didn't scratch or push hard enough to leave any scratches in the steel of the barrel, rather, I gently used the dental pick tools to scrape loose any carbon that was trying to stick to the walls of the chamber. It felt like most of the carbon was dislodged from the 10 to 2 o'clock position of the inside of the barrel looking from the breech with the barrel link at the 6 o'clock position.

I was genuinely surprised at the amount of carbon that came out because I always felt that I was pretty thorough cleaning the chamber, scrubbing out the chamber with a bronze bore brush, sweet's 7.62, Hoppes solvent and doing so until patches came out clean. The carbon must have been pretty stubborn stuff to have escaped my attentions for all these years. In any case, so far, the only big surprise came from the tip that came from Decoy...I'll find out after the range re-opens and I get a chance to go and shoot again.

The Corona virus has caused the range at my gun club to close until at least 07 April...I hope to get out soon after they re-open.

Again, a thousand thanks to all who have given me suggestions. Keep 'em, coming...so far Decoy's suggestion has yielded an immense surprise. I'm never too old or arrogant to learn. Thanks again.

 

[Unknown]

My gun club finally re-opened, and I took the Para out to test it. With the #22 recoil spring, I had one failure to feed where the breech face pinched the round between the bullet and the extractor groove of the case. I installed the older #18 (factory weight) recoil spring, and there were no malfunctions, even with magazines loaded with a mix of Hornady critical duty, federal hydra shok, hornady critical defense, and 3 different makes of factory ball ammo. I ran 3 magazines full of this mixed ammo through with no malfunctions.

In comparing the new parts to old, the biggest difference was the new Wilson extractor that had a considerably wider extractor hook than the one that I took out of the pistol.

Prior to the testing, I had done the following:
1. smoothed off the burnished area shown in one of the photos
2. installed all new +10% power Wolff magazine springs
3. installed a new magazine catch
4. installed a new #22 recoil spring as I had previously had best luck with that weight spring
5. Installed a new Wilson extractor
6. disassemble the entire pistol and did a really thorough deep clean (it wasn't all that dirty, even in the extractor and firing pin recesses)
7. re-lubricated everything really generously

I realize this is a rather old thread, I wanted to post the results so those who were generous enough to make some suggestions could see that I took their suggestions, and they resulted in success. My old duty gun is again running like a sewing machine, and is reliable enough to carry. Thanks again to all who helped me out and took the time to add to this post. Y'all made a difference.

 

[want2learn]

glad it worked out....very gratifying to work things out especially on a pistol you really enjoy and has given you good service.
thanks for updating the thread

 

[Unknown]

It was my duty gun for many years. Generally speaking I like to leave firearms in their original finish, however after decades of daily use and service, it got looking so damned beat up I began to feel sorry for it, so I had it cerekoted in sniper gray with burned bronze highlights for the smaller parts, grip safety, barrel, bushing etc. About two years after that, the extractor broke, and that was the inception of all the problems. Usually, if it malfunctioned, putting in a new #22 pound recoil spring would instantly restore function, but with the new extractor to replace the broken one, things went to crap. Just after the first of the year, it finally decided to be unable to make it through a magazine without a malfunction, so I took it out of service.

After yesterday when I deliberately fed it magazine after magazine of the most mixed up bunch of JHP and ball ammo and it worked great. I had two malfunctions with the #22 spring, so put in the #18 spring, and it ate up every round I had left without a single bobble (probably around 85-95 rounds). Some rounds were standard 230 grain ball, some were 220 grain +P, some were 230grain +P, and, some rounds were Federal 230 grain hydra shok.