Maggie’s Ahhh, Paypal got me!

[BytorJr]

Zelle is good, but like a wire transfer. There is no retrieving of funds once sent.

Zelle is ONLY for those you know. I'm still waiting for my P7M13 and the police laughed when they asked if they could trace it; even though my bank told me what bank it went to. By the time the police traced it, account had been closed, fake SSN and all (or I should say stolen SSN) from what I understood.

There is little chance you'll get your money back if somethings goes wrong with a Zelle transaction. I'll never use it again.

 

[mrtoyz]

I’m trying to understand why we would consider using any anti gun service that offer zero protection. Guntab looks to be the first legit service for guns that protects both parties.

 

[NoDopes]

Most of the risk is on the buyers sending cash, etc. A buddy of.mine said he always used postal money orders because any fraud is immediately a federal offence. However, my current thinking is that depending on your social score, the feds may end up just investigating you.

 

[Edds]

How could that be legal?

I don't know how. It may not be legal but they have done it to others.

You could ask Choid, he will know.

 

[Porksboy]

Send a demand letter from your lawyer. Then take them to small claims court, when/if they dont show win by default?
I dont know Im not a lawyer nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.
I only use paypal to pay for antique tools with a credit card.

 

[Iamero]

Lol I like the people who like to comment on here just to rip me with the “play stupid games” comments. I wasn’t arguing I didn’t do anything wrong; I simply asked for alternative payment options and laughed about getting caught. It sucks; but y’all can get lost with your comments about “you knew it was coming”.

 

[The King]

Lol I like the people who like to comment on here just to rip me with the “play stupid games” comments. I wasn’t arguing I didn’t do anything wrong; I simply asked for alternative payment options and laughed about getting caught. It sucks; but y’all can get lost with your comments about “you knew it was coming”.

I flat out would tell the buyer he’s on the hook for the fee if he was told not to put in a comment.

 

[W54/XM-388]

Lol I like the people who like to comment on here just to rip me with the “play stupid games” comments. I wasn’t arguing I didn’t do anything wrong; I simply asked for alternative payment options and laughed about getting caught. It sucks; but y’all can get lost with your comments about “you knew it was coming”.

If you are buying / selling to individuals, you have to work out the risks you are comfortable with.
Just about nothing is without risks.

All these payment methods that offer "protection" actually, in reality, mean the sellers have to put up with a huge amount of risk as fraud and general asshole behaviour by the "buyers". As such the businesses have to count how much they get ripped off and then spread that around to everybody else in the form of higher prices in order to stay in business. It also means you WILL be paying a higher price to cover all the fees even if you don't see it, because in the end those fees have to get paid. Much like how people don't realize there is a national 3% sales tax on everything you buy for the most part that goes directly to the big money banks.

Zelle works well if you trust the people you are sending it / receiving it from and the amount is not something that will drive you to the poorhouse if all goes wrong. However I'm not sure as a seller what will happen if the buyer turns out to be a fraudster or just wants stuff for free and tries the whole complaining to their bank that it was a fraudulent transaction that somebody else did business.

I would suggest NEVER sending a personal check for a payment unless you really know the person well.
You can get bank checks to send and then wait the clearing time, or you can get money orders. Both involve time in transit, time to clear / cash and a bit more work.

 

[T-TurtleWang]

Perfect reason why I avoid PayPal. But it seems there's still 2A people who support companies that are anti.
Any new guns buyers are just idiots and dont understand how things work.

 

[W54/XM-388]

Perfect reason why I avoid PayPal. But it seems there's still 2A people who support companies that are anti.
Any new guns buyers are just idiots and dont understand how things work.

PayPal is fast and common so folks use it.
Much like how folks still use FaceBook.

But as always, just like Facebook, using PayPal is a dance with the devil and quite often the devil will bite you, so you kind of have to be prepared to make the bite as low pain as possible if you decide to go with that dance.

 

[diverdon]

I don't know how. It may not be legal but they have done it to others.

You could ask Choid, he will know.

Big techs motto should be.... we're big and rich enough to be above the law.

 

[Edds]

Big techs motto should be.... we're big and rich enough to be above the law.

I believe paypal identifies accounts they think are violating the rules but may not lock it at that time.

Then I think they look at the balance history and monitor the account waiting for a time when the balance is at a higher point so they can lock it.

 

[Iamero]

It’s funny you say that because it was like 2 weeks ago that the transaction happened. Nothing, but suddenly I get $3,000 more and boom, locked.

 

[W54/XM-388]

I believe paypal identifies accounts they think are violating the rules but may not lock it at that time.

Then I think they look at the balance history and monitor the account waiting for a time when the balance is at a higher point so they can lock it.

That is very possible.
They want to maximize their profits.

 

[diverdon]

That is very possible.
They want to maximize their profits.

Profit is something you get by providing value, this is theft that they are maxing.

 

[Devildog]

One more reason I’m staying away from PayPal. https://electionwiz.com/2021/04/24/...roviding-armed-security-during-arizona-audit/

 

[918v]

Just use PayPal for eBay. Use alternatives for gun stuff. Postal money order fraud may be a federal offense but good luck trying to get the feds to prosecute. Same thing with small claims and lawyers, lol. It will cost you 2x as much as what you lost at the very least.

 

[Alpine 338]

How can this be legal that they hold your money without your approval.

Call your State's Attorneys office and tell them a company is holding your money and won't release it.

 

[918v]

How can this be legal that they hold your money without your approval.

Call your State's Attorneys office and tell them a company is holding your money and won't release it.

It’s in their user agreement. By using their services you approved them holding your money.

 

[Im2bent]

Just use PayPal for eBay. Use alternatives for gun stuff. Postal money order fraud may be a federal offense but good luck trying to get the feds to prosecute. Same thing with small claims and lawyers, lol. It will cost you 2x as much as what you lost at the very least.

Ebay just split off from Paypal. Guess they did not want to share the loot. I got notified by Ebay to "update" my account as far as receiving payments because no more Paypal. Ebay is about as bad as paypal in the antigun dept. its weird you can buy gun parts galore but when I posted some 45 win mag brass I no longer needed because I sold my LAR Grizzly I got a nasty gram saying they deleted my listing because it violated their anti gun policies and if I did it again they would ban me?????? So I said fine and bought a 45 win mag barrel for my Contender.....wait for it............. off Ebay.

 

[Iamero]

It is bizarre what eBay chooses to let people sell. Muzzle brakes off eBay? No problem. Barrel off eBay? No problem. Brass or a grip? Hell no!

 

[308pirate]

You're a dumbass if you don't use an escrow service

GunTab: GunTab is escrow

The safest, easiest payments for GunBroker, Armslist, etc.. Don't risk getting scammed. Use GunTab to pay and get paid on GunBroker, ArmsList, and anywhere else guns are for sale online.

www.guntab.com

 

[W54/XM-388]

As a seller I wouldn't accept using an escrow service for any reason.
Buyer is welcome to hop on a plane and come meet at the local Gun store to ship it out if they are concerned.

Besides most "buyers" will want you to have to pay all the fees, take all the risk, and wait all the time.

Much like those who are saying get a copy of their driver's license... I'd never ever ever do that.

People seem to forget that more fraud happens to sellers than buyers in the wider world. So much that pretty much everybody has to work that into the prices they charge.

That being said, many folks tend to be going towards the only buying and selling to folks in the secret societies that are well known to each other.

In my case, I find it so much easier for most stuff just to sell it on consignment at the Local Gun Store, with the exception of a few special items such as AI rifles and such that go better here.

 

[Long_Action]

Depending on what you are buying, PayPal might be the only option. I sold some m40 boom stick parts on Bay and shipped them to France. In the past 6 months I've purchased a NOS T&E from the Netherlands for my1919 and a Elcan scope from Kuwait. I've also bought and sold a lot of edge weapons and gun parts that may or may not be legal in some States? I do however have a paper in my wallet that allows me to do this... think it says "I do what I want". You can't live life by only using Services that are pro 2A. I'll ride the Bull till it bucks me....

 

[E. Bryant]

This is worth a read for those that use PayPal for large transactions that may or may not be prohibited:

 

[Alpine 338]

It’s in their user agreement. By using their services you approved them holding your money.

So, back to my original question then. My understanding, even though I don't have a PayPal account. You cannot sell/buy certain things like firearms, ammo, etc. But where's the breach of contract selling brass cases? They are holding your money illegally in my opinion.

 

[Iamero]

Oh yea, how they get you is by basically saying that if they "suspect" you're violating their terms then they can freeze your account. Basically guilty until proven innocent, and they don't make proving yourself innocent easy.

They're acceptable uses policy only says this "relate to transactions involving......(j) ammunition, firearms, or certain firearm parts or accessories"

If they don't unlock my account in the next day or two then I have to go back and get them to exactly define "certain firearm parts or accessories" because nowhere in their terms and conditions or anywhere on their site can I find a detail list of those "certain" accessories. Hopefully this will be my saving grace if I get a lawyer involved. Brass is not ammunition, and brass is not a firearm part or accessory.

 

[Iamero]

Hah, so I talked to them today again because I hadn't heard back on the ticket the guy created on my behalf last Friday. Turns out it might be Wednesday before I hear on it because they are a little back logged. The lady I talked to today says it shows that Paypal chose to "separate from the account"; their nice way of saying permanently froze. I again asked her if she knew what specific transaction caused this separation and she didn't know either. We shall see what they say when they investigate my ticket in the next day or two.

 

[wvfarrier]

A worker at my LGS had to get an attorney to get his funds released, it took nearly a year.

 

[Alpine 338]

Maybe band together and do a class-action law suit.

 

[Iamero]

Yea, there always need to be someone to start the class action suits but no one really wants to take the time or effort to try and get that going.

Update: I heard back from them this morning and my account is still "permanently limited". AKA not deleted, just permanently frozen. They said it's their sole discretion to limit my account IFF I violated their Acceptable Uses Policy. Fun part is, I never did.

I asked for two things:
1) immediate access to my funds so I can withdraw them and close the account.
2) A written statement on exactly what component of section "j" in their AUP that I violated. Without certifiable proof of my violation I had to officially lay it out to them that legal will be getting legal involved. I didn't want to threaten them with legal action because that never goes anywhere good; just warn them that I won't back down.

 

[EddieNFL]

I used PP briefly when I first entered the world of internet shopping. Then I found a site listing the stories of countless people getting ripped. The only one I really remember was a seller had funds taken back when the buyer said he never received goods. The seller found posts of the buyer bragging about ripping the guy off and forwarded to PP. PP was like, "What? We didn't see anything."

 

[A&8's]

My Paypal and Venmo got shut down within mins of each other a few days ago, too. Even though I am a brick and mortar "sporting goods" store, I always made sure customers never used the words "Firearm, Gun, etc." in the comments. All was good for 9-10 years. Then all of a sudden, BAM shut down permanently. I knew it would just be a matter of time. Luckily, I transferred money out within a couple hours of receiving. So, they're not holding any of my money.

The anti 2A'ers are finding other ways to get to us. Insurance companies are canceling policies, CC processors shutting down services for gun shops, etc.

Rich

 

[Iamero]

Yea that's definitely the feel I am getting. I think they are just cracking down on everything and reviewing accounts to find any little slip up that they can to shut down an account. I just got off the phone with them and found the exact transaction that they flagged. August 6, 2020 "LR17" in the notes. So they went back to August of last year to find a transaction that said my account was "risky" and BAM, froze. The lady is making another appeal for me saying that they are a "magnification device/binos" so we will see if they buy it or not. Their conversations are recorded and she specifically told me that my funds will be available after 180 days and that it will ONLY be used to refund a dispute if one were to arise. I repeatedly asked about Paypal keeping the money as a "penalty" but she assured me is was only to refund potential buyer disputes.

I doubt my second appeal will go anywhere but here's to hoping.

When I asked her why they thought that was a transaction worthy of freezing my account she said that "for security reasons we can't disclose why that decision was made". Soooo basically at any point they can say a transaction was risky, freeze someone's account, and make that person crawl and scrape to try and get their money back. Hmmm if this appeal fails it might be time for legal to get involved if any attorney around here things there's a fighting chance of getting that money unfrozen.

 

[Alpine 338]

If it was for security reasons, you should be included in the conversation, since it's your account, your money.

 

[ccasanova]

I sold a buddy some PMAGs. He put “clips and ammo” in the For: section

 

[346ci]

Can't count the number of dummies I gave specific instructions to not mention 2A stuff and they still do. I created another bank account for when the day comes..

 

[Aries256]

Yea that's what I told him..I'm not sure how there are gun businesses that accept Paypal. Nothing against them, I just don't see how Paypal is on board with that. They claim some sites go through a vetting process on age and such and that's how they are willing to let it go. Beats me.

But yea, $3,600 sits in Paypal jail right now. Woof. Here's to hoping it gets resolved and I can pull my money out and be done with them.

Well it’s theft if they don’t return your own money to you.

 

[Straw Hat]

You knew about the PP problems for years, yet you continued to use them. Play stupid games....

I have always hated PayPal and their stupid policies, Holding a persons money for 180 days. such Bullpiss.
But then no one forces you to agree to their terms and use their services.

 

[SRPowah]

As annoying as their policies are, I continue to use Paypal G&S simply because it scares some scammers away. Its like a mutually assured destruction option, because they risk a frozen account and money disappearing if I have to submit a claim. Wouldn't be the first time someone backed out because I refused to use a service like Venmo or Zelle without any sort of buyer protection. Even with Zelle backed by my bank, they offer absolutely no buyer protection and state its for simple friends and family transactions.

 

[Jgunner]

You know, i think I’ve read enough and going to delete pp. i use to to buy stuff from companies i dont really trust(small places ive never heard of). I don’t have enough money to lose it to pp and not lose sleep over it. It might limit my transactions, but oh well.

 

[Iamero]

Yea I tried to tell Paypal that I used them for as many things as I can because of that very reason; they offered buyer protection and that allowed me to comfortably order from any of these smaller companies online for a variety of items. I also reminded them I use them for monthly subscriptions and donations as well that are automatically withdrawn. They didn't give two shits. I'm "too risky". Oh well, life goes on.

 

[A&8's]

I find it funny that, even though they canceled my accounts last week, I still get emails every fucking day saying that "I'm approved for a PP business loan" or "Venmo Credit Card." lol Really!?!?

 

[A&8's]

It also pisses me off that I can't go in and delete my personal and banking info. If I'm not allowed to use your services, then why do you need my info!?!?

 

[Iamero]

Yup, bunch of bull crap. They keep that on file in case there are any disputes during the 180 day wait period that they need to pull funds for. Hence why I already got a new debit card. It's too much work to change my bank now, but they said they will keep an eye out on any attempts for pulls from Paypal. I know I'll be find because they have enough of a balance left in there for them to play with, but it's still frustrating.