AI AT Accuracy Problems

[Wolf762x51]

Hey All!

Finally pulled the trigger on by bucket-list rifle and got an AT in .308 last summer. Its had sporadic trips to the range and shot out to 600yd and seemed to do well. Tried to shoot some Hornady Match the other day and the rifle was printing 2in groups. I know rifles can be picky but this was horrendous. Ive printed some 5-shot groups with some leftover 175gr handloads for another rifle and it did okay but nothing to write home about. Should I be worried? Groups were shot at 100yds, the 2in groups were really good trigger presses with a perfectly centered recitcle when the shot broke (love my AG rear bags). Optic is a 4-32 NX8. Im really hoping this is just me because thats the easiest thing to fix. Thanks!

 

[Wolf762x51]

Edit: I have checked the barrel clamp screw and did clean the barrel to see if that was the issue.

 

[71firebird400]

Could be a million things, try a different ammo. No reason to suspect the rifle has an issue if it's an isolated incident.

 

[D̷e̷v̷i̷l̷D̷o̷c̷A̷Z̷]

All those groups were under 1” except for Dan’s

Yours doesn’t seem to like Hornady. No big deal.

 

[Huskydriver]

What brand of ai barrel?

 

[Wolf762x51]

What brand of ai barrel?

The factory Lothar Walther 1:12

 

[Wolf762x51]

All those groups were under 1” except for Dan’s

Yours doesn’t seem to like Hornady. No big deal.

Best case scenario! I did notice that even though the groups *looked* horrendous they were all sub-minute which is kinda funny how that works. A 5.56 group looks like youve got miles between the shots but its never as bad as it looks

 

[Nik H]

Hey All!

Finally pulled the trigger on by bucket-list rifle and got an AT in .308 last summer. Its had sporadic trips to the range and shot out to 600yd and seemed to do well. Tried to shoot some Hornady Match the other day and the rifle was printing 2in groups. I know rifles can be picky but this was horrendous. Ive printed some 5-shot groups with some leftover 175gr handloads for another rifle and it did okay but nothing to write home about. Should I be worried? Groups were shot at 100yds, the 2in groups were really good trigger presses with a perfectly centered recitcle when the shot broke (love my AG rear bags). Optic is a 4-32 NX8. Im really hoping this is just me because thats the easiest thing to fix. Thanks!

If it is the brown box Hornady HPBT 168 grain, it is junk. I got a few boxes for free from a friend. When I tried it out of my AT, I was like WTF!!! Luckily I had some FGMM 168 grain with me and fired 2 awesome groups with that.

Switch to Hornady ELD-M or FGMM 168 grain SMK or FGMM 168 grain Tactical tip or FGMM 175 grain SMK.

 

[ShtrRdy]

If you haven't already, you need to get some Federal Gold Metal Match with the 168 gr SMK and with the 175 gr SMK. If it doesn't group 1/2 moa or better then let's talk.

 

[diggler1833]

Were they the same lot of ammo?

 

[Wolf762x51]

Were they the same lot of ammo?

Yes, same box.

 

[diggler1833]

Yes, same box.

Did you clean the rifle or adjust anything otherwise between range sessions?

Usually you don't see drastic changes like that, to include POI shift that much unless something has been altered (I'm assuming that you kept the same zero). Same rest/bag setup?

Were there any drastic conditional changes (temp/wind etc...)?

 

[Wolf762x51]

Did you clean the rifle or adjust anything otherwise between range sessions?

Usually you don't see drastic changes like that, to include POI shift that much unless something has been altered (I'm assuming that you kept the same zero). Same rest/bag setup?

Were there any drastic conditional changes (temp/wind etc...)?

The two pictures are from different days with totally different ammo. The large groups of 5 and 10 had a barrel cleaning in between but everything else the same. Im sure its just a matter of finding what it likes for bullets.

 

[diggler1833]

The two pictures are from different days with totally different ammo. The large groups of 5 and 10 had a barrel cleaning in between but everything else the same. Im sure its just a matter of finding what it likes for bullets.

Wait, I might be misunderstanding you (or vice versa)...If it was different ammo that gave you the two different results how was it the same lot/box?

 

[Wolf762x51]

Wait, I might be misunderstanding you (or vice versa)...If it was different ammo that gave you the two different results how was it the same lot/box?

The pic with a bunch of targets was a lot of 175gr reloads, my control group to contrast the Hornady.

 

[6brshooter]

No offense, but looking at group shape of the 175"control" groups, rear bag control, trigger press, and breathing control during shot look a little suspect. Generally if accuracy is effected by bedding/barrel, groups string/shape is consistent. Some groups are diagonal shaped, some are vertical and some is horizontal shaped.

 

[Wolf762x51]

No offense, but looking at group shape of the 175"control" groups, rear bag control, trigger press, and breathing control during shot look a little suspect. Generally if accuracy is effected by bedding/barrel, groups string/shape is consistent. Some groups are diagonal shaped, some are vertical and some is horizontal shaped.

No ego here boss, youre probably right on. I did invest on a better rear bag so the rifle is now a lot more stable than before, but the past year for me has been mostly rimfires and my Mk12 so its very possible its me. I do think Im better than a 2 MOA shooter off a bench though.

 

[Ty21]

I mean they all look good to me lol all under an inch….. unless your dan I would just try different ammo until you find one it likes or just hand load.

 

[6brshooter]

No ego here boss, youre probably right on. I did invest on a better rear bag so the rifle is now a lot more stable than before, but the past year for me has been mostly rimfires and my Mk12 so its very possible its me. I do think Im better than a 2 MOA shooter off a bench though.

Oh it definitely didn't like those Hornady loads. I was basing my claim on the 175gr groups. Not trying to bust your balls, and it was a solid effort. You showed all the groups and didn't cherry pick, so props for that.

 

[Wolf762x51]

Went out today again with some 168gr GMM, each box was a different lot. Not going to lie, a little disappointed at the performance...

 

[carbonbased]

For 10rd groups…not knowing how you shoot with other rifles…I dunno man. Looks decent.

You can’t compare other people’s isolated 2, 3, or 5 round groups to a 10rounder.

https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/tac-ops-kmw-collaboration.7143953/post-10535392

https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/tac-ops-kmw-collaboration.7143953/post-10574453

 

[Wolf762x51]

For 10rd groups…not knowing how you shoot with other rifles…I dunno man. Looks decent.

You can’t compare other people’s isolated 2, 3, or 5 round groups to a 10rounder.

https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/tac-ops-kmw-collaboration.7143953/post-10535392

https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/tac-ops-kmw-collaboration.7143953/post-10574453

Well shit, that makes my feel kinda foolish. Should know that by now...

 

[carbonbased]

Well shit, that makes my feel kinda foolish. Should know that by now...

For an extreme example, look at the rimfire comp guys chasing ammo lot numbers like they are hunting for the Holy Grail.

What a pain!

 

[Wolf762x51]

For an extreme example, look at the rimfire comp guys chasing ammo lot numbers like they are hunting for the Holy Grail.

What a pain!

Dude Ive been chasing those .2 groups that people always show and single-digit SDs for years (see my early posts), and Ive been convinced I just suck and am apparently the only person on the planet that cant shoot or reload. Almost hung it all up and moved on. This may finally free me to just go FUCKING SHOOT.

 

[spife7980]

For an extreme example, look at the rimfire comp guys chasing ammo lot numbers like they are hunting for the Holy Grail.

What a pain!

Not that extreme, if you want to shoot the best you gotta test to find the best

Outside of the rimfire necessities, factory ammo is crap and I won’t waste my time shooting it. Not saying I cant load bad ammo myself, I just prefer not to.

 

[carbonbased]

Not that extreme, if you want to shoot the best you gotta test to find the best

I was riffing off of @Frank Green ‘s linked post about using different ammo to find what your gun likes.

I just meant that rimfire ammo seems to vary more than centerfire…even the same brand/model of ammo that may have shot well in your rimfire before, might suddenly not.

Thus you have to hunt harder for good rf ammo, as witnessed by your lot testing above.

Whereas a centerfire brand/model of ammo seems to shoot more consistently bad or consistently good in a certain rifle.

 

[carbonbased]

@Wolf762x51 9 Hole Reviews, one of my fav YT channels, goes into why they shoot nine-shot groups:

 

[6brshooter]

Dave tooley bartlien factory ai barrel on and old mk3 ae. 4 different handloads, 3 were same bullet and charge, diff oal. Those 15rds would make a nice composite group.

 

[nn8734]

Dude Ive been chasing those .2 groups that people always show and single-digit SDs for years (see my early posts), and Ive been convinced I just suck and am apparently the only person on the planet that cant shoot or reload. Almost hung it all up and moved on. This may finally free me to just go FUCKING SHOOT.

What did the targets at 500m and greater look like?

That will determine/tell us whether or not you can shoot or reload, not 100 yard groups and SD/ES (unless your SD is over 40 or some shit, which yours arent)

 

[Wolf762x51]

What did the targets at 500m and greater look like?

That will determine/tell us whether or not you can shoot or reload, not 100 yard groups and SD/ES (unless your SD is over 40 or some shit, which yours arent)

My local range only goes to 300yd, I can post some pics in the future if youre interested.

 

[nn8734]

My local range only goes to 300yd, I can post some pics in the future if youre interested.

My point is, you have a tool designed to shoot well beyond 100m so dont get hung up on "songle digit" SDs and group size at 100m (or any distance) for that matter when shooting .473
bolt face cartridges unless you are competing in bench rest, 1k yard F-class or similar comps.

I dont even keep track of SD for my non-magnums, there's no point. I just look at the target and adjust my load (if in fact that's the problem but usually not) or my fundimentals / wind reading (which is usually the problem when im not shooting as well as I'd like).

Try to find a spot that allows you to stretch its legs...once you're smacking steel at 600,800m etc you'll forget all about concerns over your group sizes (which are fine) and SD (also fine, if that holds steady over a 20-30 shot sample).

Meanwhile, shoot dot drills to take your mind off group size.

 

[Wolf762x51]

My point is, you have a tool designed to shoot well beyond 100m so dont get hung up on "songle digit" SDs and group size at 100m (or any distance) for that matter when shooting .473
bolt face cartridges unless you are competing in bench rest, 1k yard F-class or similar comps.

I dont even keep track of SD for my non-magnums, there's no point. I just look at the target and adjust my load (if in fact that's the problem but usually not) or my fundimentals / wind reading (which is usually the problem when im not shooting as well as I'd like).

Try to find a spot that allows you to stretch its legs...once you're smacking steel at 600,800m etc you'll forget all about concerns over your group sizes (which are fine) and SD (also fine, if that holds steady over a 20-30 shot sample).

Meanwhile, shoot dot drills to take your mind off group size.

Ahhhhhh I get where youre coming from.

 

[6brshooter]

If a load don't shoot at 100yds or a shooter can't hold reasonable groups at 100, what type of magic will overcome that at distance? I read plenty of guys say "I don't waste muh time at 100, I shoot long range." Blah, blah, blah. If you can't shoot at 100yds that group is only gonna get worse at distance when you factor shitty numbers and wind into it.

 

[hlee]

If a load don't shoot at 100yds or a shooter can't hold reasonable groups at 100, what type of magic will overcome that at distance? I read plenty of guys say "I don't waste muh time at 100, I shoot long range." Blah, blah, blah. If you can't shoot at 100yds that group is only gonna get worse at distance when you factor shitty numbers and wind into it.

The magic is in putting a big ol’ piece of steel out there and being happy to hear it go “ding.” Paper is ruthless and tells the hard truth. But, when any hit is a good hit, and there’s no penalty for lobbing half a box of bullets down range to walk in on the target, we’ll there’s your magic…

 

[nn8734]

If a load don't shoot at 100yds or a shooter can't hold reasonable groups at 100, what type of magic will overcome that at distance? I read plenty of guys say "I don't waste muh time at 100, I shoot long range." Blah, blah, blah. If you can't shoot at 100yds that group is only gonna get worse at distance when you factor shitty numbers and wind into it.

Don't waste time at 100m unless that is all you have (if so, move). Shoot your groups or dot drills and assess. If you're good with what you see, move on. If not, trouble shoot, fix then move on. No one said anything about not spending any time at all at 100m or ignoring obvious problems on paper when at 100.

There's nothing wrong or bad about the OP's groups in post #21, unless he's competing in events that require the tightest groups possible to have any chance at winning . Too many (esp on here) seem to be letting perfection be the enemy of good, especially if one-hole groups and single-digit SDs arent necessary to meet the shooter's requirements/def for success overall. Its a waste of time, money, ammo/resources.

If OP does require that thing shoot one-hole or cloverleaf groups each and every time then he has more work to do. If not, shoot it at distance and see how the whole system (shooter, ammo, platform) does and go from there.

 

[Shoots 700's]

Practice at further distances. You might be surprised. Chances are it’s not the gun

 

[Wolf762x51]

Practice at further distances. You might be surprised. Chances are it’s not the gun

That would be okay by me! Thats the cheaper thing to fix

 

[6brshooter]

Don't waste time at 100m unless that is all you have (if so, move). Shoot your groups or dot drills and assess. If you're good with what you see, move on. If not, trouble shoot, fix then move on. No one said anything about not spending any time at all at 100m or ignoring obvious problems on paper when at 100.

There's nothing wrong or bad about the OP's groups in post #21, unless he's competing in events that require the tightest groups possible to have any chance at winning . Too many (esp on here) seem to be letting perfection be the enemy of good, especially if one-hole groups and single-digit SDs arent necessary to meet the shooter's requirements/def for success overall. Its a waste of time, money, ammo/resources.

If OP does require that thing shoot one-hole or cloverleaf groups each and every time then he has more work to do. If not, shoot it at distance and see how the whole system (shooter, ammo, platform) does and go from there.

Wow, try decaf bro. You completely missed the point. If you can't shoot consistently at 100, what's the point of stretching out? More frustration? Big ass piece of steel and lob shit in? Maybe im missing your point, but so far i got "forget 100 and group size or numbers, shoot longer distance!"

 

[nn8734]

Wow, try decaf bro. You completely missed the point. If you can't shoot consistently at 100, what's the point of stretching out? More frustration? Big ass piece of steel and lob shit in? Maybe im missing your point, but so far i got "forget 100 and group size or numbers, shoot longer distance!"

Wow, decaf sucks, bro. But you drink it if you like it.

 

[xxflyingturtlexx]

Wow, try decaf bro. You completely missed the point. If you can't shoot consistently at 100, what's the point of stretching out? More frustration? Big ass piece of steel and lob shit in? Maybe im missing your point, but so far i got "forget 100 and group size or numbers, shoot longer distance!"

OP does not print bad at all, he is just caught up in 0.2 groups and single digit sd aids hence we are trying to get him out.

OP shoot longer distances and enjoy your gun man. You are not doing bad at all.

 

[6brshooter]

I've said from the beginning, his 175gr groups are acceptable, but fundamentals are a bit shaky as his poi is moving around target (unless there is powder charge changes). A dot drill will get him away from chasing groups and help iron fundamentals out. I would suggest he does that before he jumps put to 7-800 yds. You all carry on.

 

[Wolf762x51]

Hey guys, I really appreciate everyone who has taken time out of their day to offer insight. Im not looking to have my ass kissed or a pat on the head; its just that between starting a buisness, buying a home and raising a kiddo Ive been out of the game for a long time. After getting my dream rifle I really needed a reset from all the cherry-picked groups and SDs on the internet so that I know if somethings wrong or if I need more practice, and what REAL groups typically look like.

 

[Wolf762x51]

I've said from the beginning, his 175gr groups are acceptable, but fundamentals are a bit shaky as his poi is moving around target (unless there is powder charge changes). A dot drill will get him away from chasing groups and help iron fundamentals out. I would suggest he does that before he jumps put to 7-800 yds. You all carry on.

It could very well be, or maybe I forgot to check parallax. (My NF doest have yardage marked out like the Vortex does so dialing it in is sometimes an adventure).

 

[Criver600]

First groups look like some bi-pod bounce, try preloading your bipod.
As far as factory ammo Lapua 167 Scenar #4317515, with a good barrel will shoot one hole groups. Federal Gold Medal match Sierra 168 or 175's Match Kings can be good. BlackHills ammo with 168 or 175 Match Kings can be decent.

 

[NHPiper]

If your 10 round groups are inside of 3/4" with an SD of 11 that gun is going to do everything you want it to do out to 1000+ yards. I don't think I can personally stack consistent 10 round groups inside of 1/2" at 100yds unless it's with my ATX and I really, really take my time. That gun will stack a 10x group inside of a dime or nickel all day long.

I try to remember that I am a practical shooter. 1MOA at 100yds with reloads isn't acceptable to me. But 1/2 MOA gives me some margin of error with whatever variables I may have at distance, including me as the shooter.

Remember that 1MOA is 10" at 1000 yards. That means if I aim at the center on a steel torso, all other variables aside like a wild SD/ES, and assuming my wind is good, I am going to be with a 5" radius. That's vital zone on a lot of different targets.

I have never personally stacked a 5" group at 1000 yards. Maybe some day, but as long as I hit that steel consistently, which is more often a wind issue and not a vertical dispersion issue, I am happy.

 

[6brshooter]

It could very well be, or maybe I forgot to check parallax. (My NF doest have yardage marked out like the Vortex does so dialing it in is sometimes an adventure).

Keep in mind that the yd marks aren't always right and can vary day to day via atmospherics. Always verify parallax is dialed out by shifting head around behind scope, NEVER blindly trust parallax yd marks!

 

[Wolf762x51]

Keep in mind that the yd marks aren't always right and can vary day to day via atmospherics. Always verify parallax is dialed out by shifting head around behind scope, NEVER blindly trust parallax yd marks!

Roger, will do!

 

[FUNCTIONAL]

Not to be a dick.... but based on the second set of groups you posted it looks like shooter inconsistencies. If you notice you have a lot of 2-3 shots stacked up and then they shift to another location and stack another 2. That's typically from the shooter slightly changing something like body position, bipod pressure, face pressure, etc. If it was purely ammo or gun limits you would see it more sporadic in a group rather than stacking mini groups.

I personally have never got hornady factory to shoot well in any gun and federal has been the better in a wider group of guns but still hardly ever better than 1/2moa, more typically 3/4moa.

To me it looks like the gun is capable with the fgmm loads.

Edit: something to try is do only 3-5rd groups for a bit and really focus on every shot. You should also adjust your scope down 2-3 mils so your group is out of your immediate focus and less distracting. You'll only be focusing on the aim point and not seeing holes. You should also practice taking a shot, getting up and then setting up behind the gun again and taking a shot. Do that 3-5 times to make up a group. It will help pace yourself and learn to have a solid position every time.

 

[Wolf762x51]

Not to be a dick.... but based on the second set of groups you posted it looks like shooter inconsistencies. If you notice you have a lot of 2-3 shots stacked up and then they shift to another location and stack another 2. That's typically from the shooter slightly changing something like body position, bipod pressure, face pressure, etc. If it was purely ammo or gun limits you would see it more sporadic in a group rather than stacking mini groups.

I personally have never got hornady factory to shoot well in any gun and federal has been the better in a wider group of guns but still hardly ever better than 1/2moa, more typically 3/4moa.

To me it looks like the gun is capable with the fgmm loads.

Edit: something to try is do only 3-5rd groups for a bit and really focus on every shot. You should also adjust your scope down 2-3 mils so your group is out of your immediate focus and less distracting. You'll only be focusing on the aim point and not seeing holes. You should also practice taking a shot, getting up and then setting up behind the gun again and taking a shot. Do that 3-5 times to make up a group. It will help pace yourself and learn to have a solid position every time.

Oh I dont think youre being a dick, I asked for input and there it is lol. Next time Ill do prone and really focus in. These 2 sessions were off a bench and it was really uncomfortable, couldnt seem to get my bipod or bags in any comfortable position. Reticle was great and the shots all semed to break dead center but the bags and bench could have really messed things up I suppose.

 

[NHPiper]

Oh I dont think youre being a dick, I asked for input and there it is lol. Next time Ill do prone and really focus in. These 2 sessions were off a bench and it was really uncomfortable, couldnt seem to get my bipod or bags in any comfortable position. Reticle was great and the shots all semed to break dead center but the bags and bench could have really messed things up I suppose.

My go to zero is prone with a bipod and bag. Focusing on natural body position, just using the bag for elevation, and pulling straight back with my control hand makes a big difference. I can then replicate off of barricades or tripods. Enjoy the sweet AI!