Rifle Scopes AI AX50 and S&B PM2 MOA Base Trouble

[nathan4x4]

I got my AX50 a couple months ago and got a Schmidt and bender PMII 5-25x56 FFP MOA p4f and an AI 45MOA base. I looked at the S&B spec and didnt realize the MOA didnt have as much travel as the MIL... Since i bought everything from the same place I thought i would have gotten a warning. I like MOA, but would have taken mil because of the travel issue..

I normally shoot at 200 yards and the longest clubs around me are 600 yards. I will travel to shoot 1000 once I'm used to the gun.
SO.... the AI base worked great securing the scope @ 17inlbs on rings and 35inlbs on the base. My zero however was like 5 large hash marks = about 18moa high. So i ordered a 28MOA base EUROOPTIC brand. They have been really helpful throughout all of this and given great pricing.

I shot 30 rounds through the AI base no scope movement, the first 5 through the EUROOPTIC it slid 1/4 inch. So i called them and they told me to put grease on bottom of bolts so that the finish wouldnt interfere with the torque valve. I agree and tried again retorquing with my Borka torque driver @ 17 on rings and 45 on base. I also put the rings against the scopes shoulder since I was close to that from the beginning.

I shot 5 rounds and the scope base picatinny dead stope was completely sheared off. The base slid 1/4inch and scratched my AX50 which was annoying since it isnt cheap even though it will be covered.

My interm move is get back my AI 45moa base and deal with the 700yrd zero (so illuminated reticle is useless). So i can actually shoot the gun accurately. They suggested 30MOA desert tactical HTI rings which look ok to me (for $370). The AI clamp is full base length and worked perfect.

Any Suggestions would be appreciated.. I'm not looking for cheap I have alot of money in this and just want about 200 yard zero.

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[EXTREMEPREJUDICE]

If I am understanding you to mean that with no adjustment left your 45 MOA base has you shooting 18 MOA high at 200 yds. then I would recommend a 30 MOA base and with your set-up........ 34mm Spuhr Mounts

 

[nathan4x4]

If I am understanding you to mean that with no adjustment left your 45 MOA base has you shooting 18 MOA high at 200 yds. then I would recommend a 30 MOA base and with your set-up........ 34mm Spuhr Mounts

I definitely like those. The HTI are on backorder from eurooptic. I was hoping to trade the used AI for HTI, but I can just eat the AI and get a spuhr. I have burnt too much money on this project to not have it rock solid. I appreciate the reply. Do you know what the torque specs are on thre spuhr

 

[Captain Kirk]

I wish I had your problems. Expensive toys = expensive solutions....

 

[Marcoman]

Wow, I can't believe it sheared the recoil lugs off the base! I have a Steyr HS.50 with a Steiner 5-25 mounted in Seekins rings and have never had any issues regarding recoil induced movement. Even when it had a USO 3.2-17 T-pal on it (HEAVY!) there were no issues. Maybe you should consider a base with steel cross slots/lugs. Something doesn't seem right if you're experiencing that much movement in your setup.

 

[maggitas]

Are you sure you defeated the zero stop on the Schmidt scope? If the scope is bottomed out then why not trade your AI 45 MOA mount for an 18 MOA mount?

 

[nathan4x4]

Are you sure you defeated the zero stop on the Schmidt scope? If the scope is bottomed out then why not trade your AI 45 MOA mount for an 18 MOA mount?

Yes it was 6 clicks from bottoming out when I had to use the widest 5th hash which is 18MOA. I ordered the AI 28 MOA also which would have been perfect, but it isnt as high as the 45MOA so it wouldnt fit. AI doesnt seem very good for putting any specs or drawings to make them easily availiable.

 

[nathan4x4]

Wow, I can't believe it sheared the recoil lugs off the base! I have a Steyr HS.50 with a Steiner 5-25 mounted in Seekins rings and have never had any issues regarding recoil induced movement. Even when it had a USO 3.2-17 T-pal on it (HEAVY!) there were no issues. Maybe you should consider a base with steel cross slots/lugs. Something doesn't seem right if you're experiencing that much movement in your setup.

The whole movement thing is questionable. I will say that the AI base didnt move and the Eurooptic base had a poor amount of surface contact. The angular portion of the clamp didnt much of the dovetail portion on the rail. I was shooting rounds from 50BMG supply.com and they are definitely not as hot as Barrett rounds.

 

[Redmanss]

Just a few thoughts here... First, I agree with maggitas that you may not have cleared the zero stop when you couldn't get a zero with the 45moa mount. As for the amount of travel and available elevation, that is a known typo on the website that still has yet to be fixed. The MOA version has just as much available travel as the mil version. Jerry Ricker from the S&B service center is really good for helping out, so a call or PM to him might assist you:

http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/members/jerry-r.html
Schmidt & Bender USA - Service Center
19980 Highland Vista Dr. Suite 190
Ashburn, VA 20147
USA
Phone +1 703.953.1253
[email protected]

Additionally, I'm wondering about the sheering of the recoil lug on the mount. Yeah, a .50 is brutal recoil and can do that, but I'm wondering if you had the mount set all the way in the forward position prior to tightening it. I've seen others do that and when the recoil lug isn't making positive contact, it has room to start traveling and would allow it to meet the rail with greater force. If there's one thing I've learned about the .50 cal is you have to overdo everything, both skills (including position to control the recoil) and equipment.

 

[Early Cuyler]

Just a few thoughts here... First, I agree with maggitas that you may not have cleared the zero stop when you couldn't get a zero with the 45moa mount. As for the amount of travel and available elevation, that is a known typo on the website that still has yet to be fixed. The MOA version has just as much available travel as the mil version. Jerry Ricker from the S&B service center is really good for helping out, so a call or PM to him might assist you:

http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/members/jerry-r.html
Schmidt & Bender USA - Service Center
19980 Highland Vista Dr. Suite 190
Ashburn, VA 20147
USA
Phone +1 703.953.1253
[email protected]

I would like to echo this. I have a PMII 5-25x56 in MOA and have roughly 115+ MOA of overall travel after overcoming the zerostop. Once the ZS is engaged, I am limited to 64-65MOA but that is from my zero due to the double turn knobs.

Also, if you're considering the Spuhr, USE ROSIN between the scope and rings! I did not initially and had the scope slip in the mount (even though the rings were torqued properly). The Spuhr manual "recommends" it, but really it should be required in my opinion. I use (and gave out samples a while back) Brownell's rosin with great results as that is what Hakan suggested.

 

[EXTREMEPREJUDICE]

Do you know what the torque specs are on thre spuhr

http://www.spuhr.com/assets/manual-isms-ver-0313.pdf You're kind of young for that big rifle, aren't ya?

 

[Spuhr]

Please give Mile high a call.
They have all our mounts in stock and they maybe even can give you a trade in on both the scope and the mount.

We have a number of mounts in service on .50 caliber guns, both mounts that apart from the scope are also carrying Thermals like this one, or SIMRAD KN200 Nightvision devices.
I see no problems in using our mount, but as previously stated please use rosin.
I would NEVER mount any scope on a Heavy recoiling rifle without using rosin.

 

[Hairball]

JMHO, but that mount should not be used on a rifle with heavy recoil. The tension screws for the base don't even have bolts running across the base to lock it into the rail. That mount has essentially one anchor point and that is just not enough. On my M99, I run a set of badger MAX-50 Scope Rings | Badger Ordnance and these will give you at least two solid anchor points. I also run a SPUHR on other larger rifles and they also have cross bolts that anchor into the rail. I don't like the mount in the pic as the entire bottom is smooth and the bolts do not hold themselves in place unless you over torque them possibly as they do not fit into the rail.

 

[nathan4x4]

I would like to echo this. I have a PMII 5-25x56 in MOA and have roughly 115+ MOA of overall travel after overcoming the zerostop. Once the ZS is engaged, I am limited to 64-65MOA but that is from my zero due to the double turn knobs.

Also, if you're considering the Spuhr, USE ROSIN between the scope and rings! I did not initially and had the scope slip in the mount (even though the rings were torqued properly). The Spuhr manual "recommends" it, but really it should be required in my opinion. I use (and gave out samples a while back) Brownell's rosin with great results as that is what Hakan suggested.

I probably didnt overcome the zero stop because I didnt get the impression that was my issue when I talked to salesperson. I dont need the huge travel of mil on the double turn so maybe I can get the AI base to work for me once they ship it back. (i returned it when I got the one I broke). I remember something in the manual about the zerostop but it seemed pretty confusing.

 

[Lowlight]

50's are not Walmart rifles, they require a heck of a lot more out of the owners to set them up right. They are a speciality piece and not something you simple stumble into.

the S&B 5-25x is designed to work with a 45MOA base, but you have to defeat and go below the zero stop. Otherwise you'll get the impression it bottoms out. Scopes are generally centered so when you set them to use all the available elevation you have to go beyond just dialing what you get out of the box.

The base looks like it got a running start, did you seat the lug forward against the lug or backwards? The mount needs to be pushed forward to engage the recoil lug. That is with any rifle.

 

[nathan4x4]

I did seat the base forward against the lug.
Thanks for the Walmart rifle comment to make it sound like im stupid.... I set it up with the AI mount and had no issues other than the zero.

I did just take the scope out and loosened the set screws and spun it 18moa up then tightened... which let me adjust down 18 moa..... so I definitely was fooled by the zero stop... Thanks everyone. Once i get my AI mount back I should be back in buisness...
The mount in the pictures slid over 1.5 lugs when i shot 5 rounds and it was not easy getting it off. the aluminum was rolled over two entire groves.

This is my first 50, and my sako trg 308 and other hunting rifles havent been an issue.. I will post some range pics once my base is back.

 

[Spuhr]

Nope!
S&B 5-25 are not made straight off for 45moa mounts.
S&B write in the manual to use half the elevation in tilt.
As the elevation in the particular scope is 65moa, there is no reason to use more than 30 Moa mount.
The total elevation of the scope is 93 Moa, but only 65 of those are accesable and there is just no reason to overtilt the scope.
It's not uncommon that a 100 yard zero is impossible with 45 Moa mounts on 5-25 Scopes.

 

[Redmanss]

A couple other threads about available elevation and recommended cant for a S&B PMII.

http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/snipers-hide-rifle-scopes/153721-s-b-pmii-5-25x56-elevation.html
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...30-much-additional-elevation.html#post2546370

 

[Lowlight]

Nope!
S&B 5-25 are not made straight off for 45moa mounts.
S&B write in the manual to use half the elevation in tilt.
As the elevation in the particular scope is 65moa, there is no reason to use more than 30 Moa mount.
The total elevation of the scope is 93 Moa, but only 65 of those are accesable and there is just no reason to overtilt the scope.
It's not uncommon that a 100 yard zero is impossible with 45 Moa mounts on 5-25 Scopes.

Youve been corrected on this before and the answer came directly from S&B, and while I don't use the MOA version, I do use 45MOA mounts for maximum effectiveness.

They made the 45MOA mount for a reason, that reason, the 5-25x

Originally Posted By: Spuhr
Nope they are not.
The missprint stated the Moa version had 56 Moa while it Have 65.
And the mil version Have 93 moa.
That was also what he explained back then.


5-25x56 PM II/LP


Håkan




Here it is from Jerry. You are mistaken what is on the knob and not the total internal travel.


Originally Posted By: Jerry R
Jason is right, this has been brought up before and evidently there is a typo on the website. All 5-25s have approximately 100-105 MOA of total internal travel. The moa knobs are marked with 65 moa and the MRAD have 26 MRAD (89MOA) of adjustment on the knob and this is not to be confused with internal travel.


Where the 56 moa came from I'm not sure. The 3-12 and 4-16 PMII moa knobs offer 56 moa on the knob, maybe there was a bit of confusion when the info was printed.

so you don't have to look, Jerry from S&B confirms the manual recommends 45

The manual does in fact recommend mounting the 5-25 on a 45 MOA rail but ONLY if the host weapon needs it, and most importantly can actually utilize that much adjustment.
I have one on a 243 Ackley that I need less than 10 mil to get me to subsonic transition and have it mounted on a 20 MOA rail but honestly I don't even need that. I could probably get by just fine on a flat rail.

 

[Spuhr]

I was corrected when it comes to the internal travel of the Moa version of the 5-25 S&B, but i am not corrected when it comes to the issue of overtilt.
Any optical system will produce best picture quality when looking straight through it.
S&B 5-25 is a very good scope, but it's picture is oval and of less quality near the extremes of both ends on the elevation.
This is something mostly people don't even notice, but for us who does, it's a bit annoying.
BUT we can easaly live with it if there is a reason.
A SB 5-25 mounted on a long range gun where the user really wants to be able to dial into the target at extreme distances like 2000 meters, there are the maximum tilt needed. And then he can and have to accept the somewhat lesser good picture quality on 100-200 yards.
But for a user who not uses the extreme range, or as in this case where he not can do it, as the scope have the 65 moa limitation, there is no real reason for using maximum tilt.
Even on a MIL scope that not have the 65 moa limitation the user is typically able to reach out to 75-80 moa elevation with just a 20-25 moa mount.
With that setup he have a perfect Picture quality on short range like 100-200 meters.
This degraded Picture quality on the end of the elevation travel is NOT specific for S&B and there is a number of others that have it to.
I have a Hensoldt 6-24x72 for example, a scope with 24 mils/82 moa travel, but already at 30 moa tilt, will those optical disturbances on short range show up.
So my 6-24x72 is instead mounted on a 24 moa base instead of the 30-40 moa that would have given it maximum usable travel.
I still takes my 6,5 bullets out to well over 1400 meters despite not using maximum tilt and it gives me a better picturequality on 100 meters that I like to have.

When asking Hensoldt what is the recomended tilt for a certain scope they Always reply with" at what distances are you going to shoot" as they also know about the degraded picture quality at the scopes extremes......


I have made some scetches here.
The blue area represents the total amount of travel inside the scope.
The red is the 65 moa availible travel within the moa 5-25.
The black line is the line of sight at 100 yards.

First Picture show the scope on a 0 moa mount, sighted in on 100 yards.
Giving a great Picture on 100 yards, but only leaving maybe 30-40 moa adjustment for longer ranges.

Second Picture shows the scope on a 45moa mount sighted in on 100 yards.
given a degraded Picture on 100 yards (because it's near the end of the travel) and still only offers 65 moa elevation for longer ranges.

Third pictrure shows the scope on a 30moa mount sighted in on 100 yards.
given a good Picture on the 100 yards and still have the 65 moa of elevation for longer ranges.

 

[Lowlight]

You can get away with anything if you want, certainly less, ignore the fact the user in this case barely plans to use the rifle as intended, in an ELR capacity. Most people buy a 50 to shoot it to 2000m or more. No inside 1000 yards.

On my AI 338 the 338 has 100 yard zero and 24 mils of useable elevation, as I do shoot it beyond 2000m

Can a person get a away with 0 cant, 20MOA, or 30 of course if the don't use the rifle to the fullest. You can get away with a lot. But if you buy a 50 with a 5-25x the sales person is assuming you want an ELR set up which the 45 MOA cant is recommended...

Read the links you were corrected about the cant, by those who use it and have and by Jerry from S&B, if you only shoot it at shorter distances use anything you like. Your personal justification does not negate the fact of the intent or what is recommended for the typical use.

If you read what written you see internally the MOA & Mil versions have the same amount of travel. So there is a lot more adjustment inside than 65. Jerry stated 100MOA of internal travel so you are not near the optical extremes

Not too long ago I set up an AX 50 with with a 5-25x for a new user, I zeroed it a 100 with no issue using a 45 Cant.

 

[Marcoman]

You can get away with anything if you want, certainly less, ignore the fact the user in this case barely plans to use the rifle as intended, in an ELR capacity. Most people buy a 50 to shoot it to 2000m or more. No inside 1000 yards.

Can a person get a away with 0 cant, 20MOA, or 30 of course if the don't use the rifle to the fullest. You can get away with a lot. But if you buy a 50 with a 5-25x the sales person is assuming you want an ELR set up which the 45 MOA cant is recommended...

Lets be realistic, most people buy a fifty for the novelty of ownership. In fact I'd probably bet that most .50BMG owners don't have access to a range or even public land that would allow them to use their rifle in in a LR or ELR capacity.

As for the base's cant, if 30moa allows full use of the turrets adjustment range what more will a 45moa base offer? All it will serve to do is put he scope farther away from its optical center with no benefit payed back in useability. Both my TRG's have the factory 3-ring mounts (30moa) and my 5-25's have the full 26 mils of adjustment available.

 

[Sako man]

You have got to be the youngest person I know who owns a 50 cal sniper rifle. I bet you scoff when your friends want you to come over to play Call Of Duty.




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