AI vs. Custom US build
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There is a thread whose title is nearly identical to this one, only add "which fails more". Search and read for yourself.
Basically, the AW offers nearly custom-grade accuracy and features in a battle-proven, bomb-proof package that is serviceable by the end user. And the AI you can buy off the shelf NOW vs. waiting months/years for a custom rig. Now that the AT is offering more-for-less, the scale shifts toward AI even more.
Basically, the AW offers nearly custom-grade accuracy and features in a battle-proven, bomb-proof package that is serviceable by the end user. And the AI you can buy off the shelf NOW vs. waiting months/years for a custom rig. Now that the AT is offering more-for-less, the scale shifts toward AI even more.
That, weight, and the limited number of chambering options are the big downsides to AI.
Valid point, but...
If you like the idea of having a good old 308 pipe sitting around on standby, it makes sense to buy an AI in 308, and order a prefit barrel in the chamber of your choice from Mile High or Moon.
My thoughts are that if you like, or can get to the point where you like AI ergonomics and aesthetics, an AT is a no brainer.
Not in the military anymore so I don't have to "live with" anything especially when spending that much of my own money on it. If you like the AI style then they are great rifles but if you wanted something built to what you want then it's an easy choice.
Agreed. While I like AI's, it almost red delicious to granny smith. An off the shelf Armani or one that's custom tailored to fit you? Unless you're going on a deployment or prepping for doomsday, I'd personally have a rifle built to my specs.
I was faced with the same decision last year. Either send my 700 off to the custom shop, start over with a custom action, or by an AI. I bought an AE MKIII for many reasons, but the main reasons were reliability, and the fact that I could change my own barrels. I hate bringing my guns to Smiths. With the new AT you get the AW action, AW mags, as well as the quick change barrel. I am thinking of selling the MKIII to get the AT for the simple fact that our local match allows on 30cal at the first match, and wildcats in the following weeks match. To change the barrel on the MKIII it is not hard, but it is a task which I am not willing to do every other week.
Be mindful that AW magazines won't take Ackley type cartridges with a shoulder any further forward than the 308 family.
AICS mags are more versatile, but of course, require front plate removal to load longer than ~2.850".
Dunno if you can feed an AW/AT with AICS (or copycats thereof) magazines.
I have an AI AE which now has a AINA Bartlein 26" 6.5 CM bbl. I changed the bbl myself and the thing is a hammer. I have had an AT for 3 weeks now and that is built like a tank and also a hammer. It has a bonded action, I can change bbls in 5 mins and it has double stack 10 rd mags which are heads and tails above the AICS mags which are good in their own right, if not every reputable bottom metal maker would not use them. I also have a custom Remington which I had to wait a lot longer for and is nowhere as reliable as my AE and no more accurate. My "custom" Remington went tits up and went down for the count when my AE worked like a charm. Harsh Canadian winters with extreme cold, ice and snow tend to be hard on equipment and I seen it first hand, also with an issued Remington that I had. Accuracy means squat without reliability and I don't think anyone can dispute the fact that an AI is more reliable than a Remington action or any of the designer clones. Its no secret what you get with an AI so if its not for you, go the custom route but try to sell it you will take a hit compared to if you sold an AI. Anyway this my opinion only but having both, I would go the AI route without hesitation.
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I have been lucky enough to have owned: many factory 700s and Savages rifles, factory custom rifles (40XB Tactical, and many 40XBs), custom rifles from the best Smiths in the US both on worked 700's and 591s, TRG 22, and 2 AIAWs. I have a lot of rounds threw all of them and have been happy with them all. However after getting a divorce and having to rework my budget to a single income and limit the number of rifles I can own and shoot I had to make the decision of what to keep and what to not keep. I am now down to 1 precision center fire and after a lot of time spent thinking about it I am back to an AIAW 2.0.
The main reason I made this decision is this is the one rifle that is as close to 100% repeatable and failure free as can be found. I decided that I didn't want to even think about what may be the cause of a bad shot (me or the rifle), and this is the only rifle I can think of that will truly provide that. I have thought about the DTA and that is a very solid choice as is the TRG (which I truly love) but I am not a fan of the trigger on the DTA and the TRG is still an action bolted into a chassis and that is one more place for a problem to arise. Bedding can and will get damaged and need repair (not a big thing but still a thing), complex triggers can and will get debris in them and fail, all actions based on the 700 are much more prone to failure due to debris. If you damage the stock on a 700 based rifle you will need to send it out for repair (unless you are using an AICS, but then all the other problems apply) but with the AW you just screw on new skins that cost very little. I think you get my point, the AIAW/AX is hands down the best hard use rifle made and while I may not fall into that "hard use" category it is a nice piece of mind having that nice big buffer.
As far as accuracy I have found my 2 AIAWs with the 3 or 4 barrels I have had between them to be on average more accurate than any of my custom rifles and as accurate as my TRG. Not only do they shoot better they seem to be less picky on ammo. And to add to that my shooting partner can add his AW to the list and his AX that he has had 4 or more barrels on, they all have been the same, consistently accurate and not picky.
But these are just my thoughts, in the end if you are not happy with the rifle then how tough it is and how well it shoots don't matter at all...
The main reason I made this decision is this is the one rifle that is as close to 100% repeatable and failure free as can be found. I decided that I didn't want to even think about what may be the cause of a bad shot (me or the rifle), and this is the only rifle I can think of that will truly provide that. I have thought about the DTA and that is a very solid choice as is the TRG (which I truly love) but I am not a fan of the trigger on the DTA and the TRG is still an action bolted into a chassis and that is one more place for a problem to arise. Bedding can and will get damaged and need repair (not a big thing but still a thing), complex triggers can and will get debris in them and fail, all actions based on the 700 are much more prone to failure due to debris. If you damage the stock on a 700 based rifle you will need to send it out for repair (unless you are using an AICS, but then all the other problems apply) but with the AW you just screw on new skins that cost very little. I think you get my point, the AIAW/AX is hands down the best hard use rifle made and while I may not fall into that "hard use" category it is a nice piece of mind having that nice big buffer.
As far as accuracy I have found my 2 AIAWs with the 3 or 4 barrels I have had between them to be on average more accurate than any of my custom rifles and as accurate as my TRG. Not only do they shoot better they seem to be less picky on ammo. And to add to that my shooting partner can add his AW to the list and his AX that he has had 4 or more barrels on, they all have been the same, consistently accurate and not picky.
But these are just my thoughts, in the end if you are not happy with the rifle then how tough it is and how well it shoots don't matter at all...
This isn't true, AW mags feed sharp shoulder cartridges just as well as the AICS. Lots of people run creedmoor and 6.5x47 from AW mags and I did too. They fed flawlessly. I also know people who have tried 260AI in AW mags and they fed reliably too.
It is true, and I made no mention of shoulder sharpness...because shoulder angle isn't the problem, shoulder location is.
I've not personally tried 260AI, but I have personally tried Whitley's 260-30° Improved. One or two in the magazine worked fine, but they were beginning to bind. By the time there were 7+ in the magazine, feeding was NOT 100%.
There are no absolutes. I posted what I did to make the point that AW magazines aren't compatible with *any* .473" short action cartridge.
Thank you all. These are very good comments. I had written the AI off and was only going to buy US but am now reconsidering. In Early May 2013 I ordered a GAP-10. I still haven't received the gun. When it arrives, It will me mine and will come ready to shoot,just like I want it. However the wait has been really painful.
I am now going to consider a AI, not sure which model or what caliber.
I am now going to consider a AI, not sure which model or what caliber.
The AT brings a nice feature to the table with the QC barrel, but in my mind is not as proven as the old style. However I would have no real problems trying one, AI has the reputation of quality so the risk is low. The value is good as well. So if it were me I would do a AT folder in 260 or if you want a 6.5 Creed. Top it off with a quality scope and you will have an unbeatable package...
Since I last posted here I have been looking at the different AI offerings. Excuse my ignorance, but when I look at the AT vs the MX I am having some issue understanding why the price is almost double. I do find the PSR very interesting, except for the price.
I wish I had taken someone's advice a long time ago to bypass a custom, bite the bullet, an just buy an AI. Several customs later, I did just that. If I had listened the first time, I would have had a superior rifle and saved a lot of money. I still have a couple of M-70/FN actioned rifles but they have been relegated to hunting status. Nothing I have ever seen or shot comes close to an AI. Happy customer and never looking back.
The MX has the capability to change the barrel, magazine, and bolt to other calibers (300 WM, 338 LM) down the road like the PSR, the AT does not.
To me it's personal preference more than anything else. Make a list of your likes and dislikes for the guns your looking at. Make a list of custom options you can add or change or if your building a rifle from scratch like Rob mentioned you have a wide variety of stocks to choose from. Which ever one has the more positives buy that one for yourself.
I wouldn't hang my decision just because this rifle or that rifle is only available in that or this caliber. You can always change the barrel and change the caliber (with in reason, mags vs. standard calibers, action lengths etc...
I've got two rifles built on Badger M2008 actions. One has a McMillan stock and the other a Manners stock (like the Manners a little more than the McMillan). Are they better than my Savage action built guns or my Rem.700 or my Barnard action built F-class gun? Not necessarily but one gun over the others has different features that I like and what I intend to use the gun for.
It's like golf clubs! I have my drivers, putters etc.....I use the gun for the intended purpose. By the way I hate golf. My idea of golfing is laying in the trees/bushes and taking a shot at your golf ball when your in the middle of your swing!
Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
I wouldn't hang my decision just because this rifle or that rifle is only available in that or this caliber. You can always change the barrel and change the caliber (with in reason, mags vs. standard calibers, action lengths etc...
I've got two rifles built on Badger M2008 actions. One has a McMillan stock and the other a Manners stock (like the Manners a little more than the McMillan). Are they better than my Savage action built guns or my Rem.700 or my Barnard action built F-class gun? Not necessarily but one gun over the others has different features that I like and what I intend to use the gun for.
It's like golf clubs! I have my drivers, putters etc.....I use the gun for the intended purpose. By the way I hate golf. My idea of golfing is laying in the trees/bushes and taking a shot at your golf ball when your in the middle of your swing!
Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
The 2014 AI AT and AI AXMC are both great offerings and reasonably priced. Don't know what else you'll need.
I think all points expressed here regarding one or the other are all well taken, and all points valid. Several years ago I chose the TRG over the AI AE because the TRG felt better while shooting. The new AI TR sure looks like a bad ass rifle though. Now when I decided to buy another rifle I considered the AI but decided I wanted to fulfill a long time desire to have a custom gun made to my specs. With help from many hide members, I decided on GAP for the task. It will be a long wait though but I have my trusted TRG to keep me company....
It's also pretty fun to knock the ball off of the green. The golfer never knows it was on the green and they had a good hit.
I second this!
I could have saved a lot of money if I just bought my AIAW first. The bolt and mag feed so reliably and smooth compared to any other bolt rifle I have shot. This gun still makes me smile after 6k rounds and 2 barrels in 308 and later 260. I had it re-barreled in 260 by Moon at GAP. The rifle is .25 moa, only problem is I rarely am. Best bolt rifle I have ever owned, shot, experienced period!
AI AE MKIII Barrel & Caliber Choices
I pick up an AE around Christmas time from Dave & Adam at Mile High. Went with the Bartlein 5r 308, after a whole 50 Rounds, I decided to swap calibers. After contacting Mark Chanlynn to find out when he was running 6mm barrels I drop it off.
Mark installed one of his barrels chambered in 6XC, along with an APA Little Daddy brake. The thing shoots amazing, Mark did a great job on everything the fit and finish are as good as it gets. Bottom line if your thinking of getting an AI and want a different caliber there are options.
I pick up an AE around Christmas time from Dave & Adam at Mile High. Went with the Bartlein 5r 308, after a whole 50 Rounds, I decided to swap calibers. After contacting Mark Chanlynn to find out when he was running 6mm barrels I drop it off.
Mark installed one of his barrels chambered in 6XC, along with an APA Little Daddy brake. The thing shoots amazing, Mark did a great job on everything the fit and finish are as good as it gets. Bottom line if your thinking of getting an AI and want a different caliber there are options.
Does it have to be a custom U.S. build?
There's a Canadian company called PGW, which I would put against AI any day of the week. They build the rifles that the CF snipers employ.
In the end it really depends on your needs. Both have their advantages and disadvantages that have been covered in this thread, but don't overlook PGW! It's almost a blend of the two...
There's a Canadian company called PGW, which I would put against AI any day of the week. They build the rifles that the CF snipers employ.
In the end it really depends on your needs. Both have their advantages and disadvantages that have been covered in this thread, but don't overlook PGW! It's almost a blend of the two...
Anyone ever notice you never hear stuff like this from someone who actually OWNs an AI?
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Pgw, AI, fn, McMillan, robar, gap, surgeon, trg, etc all do the same thing. Honestly all within .01 of each other most times if the shooter is doin his part. It's all in preference and shooting style. The end result is the same.
Pgw, AI, fn, McMillan, robar, gap, surgeon, trg, etc all do the same thing. Honestly all within .01 of each other most times if the shooter is doin his part. It's all in preference and shooting style. The end result is the same.
Yes, I agree 100%. However if you only could have 1 then which would it be?
Nice family photo by the way Joe.
for what purpose? caliber, stock selection varies on what purpose i want to accomplish with it. Budget of the buyer has a ton to do with it as well. There is a huge difference between a PSR kit and a GAP built off a r700
I hear ya Joe.
I was asking it as a general question for someone like myself who is on a budget. I can afford about anything I want but that's only one at a time, I have to sell one to get one kinda thing. So in that situation I have to make what I have work for everything, but primarily a "recreational precision shooting role" which I think is the most common application around here. So when making a choice in my situation down time of the rifle for either repairs of a failure or maintenance like a rebarrel equals no shooting. I know it is not a life threatening situation, but it is a very important consideration when making your final choice. I think that may be where the OP is coming from with his question, and you can shed as much or more of an educated light on this subject than anyone which is why I asked you what your choice would be. But I didn't mean to put you on the spot either...
I was asking it as a general question for someone like myself who is on a budget. I can afford about anything I want but that's only one at a time, I have to sell one to get one kinda thing. So in that situation I have to make what I have work for everything, but primarily a "recreational precision shooting role" which I think is the most common application around here. So when making a choice in my situation down time of the rifle for either repairs of a failure or maintenance like a rebarrel equals no shooting. I know it is not a life threatening situation, but it is a very important consideration when making your final choice. I think that may be where the OP is coming from with his question, and you can shed as much or more of an educated light on this subject than anyone which is why I asked you what your choice would be. But I didn't mean to put you on the spot either...
Does it really matter whether or not someone owns an AI? Isn't this all just biased opinion anyways? I have shot AI's, and have commented on numerous subjects how much I like them. I just prefer to spend my money on custom builds that are suited to me. Especially since I cant spend $5k in one sitting on a rifle (custom or AI). I have to piecemeal mine and build all my customs myself. But I'm fortunate to have the ability to do so, unlike a lot of other people. Trust me, if you had the tools, knowledge and ability to build your own rifle, you wouldn't spend money on an AI. Firing a rifle that you built with your own two hands is much more gratifying. But that's just my opinion, as we all have our own on the subject.
This and gunsmiths. I always hear gunsmiths trashing them because they don't make any money on them except spinning up barrels. Doubt you'll hear Mr.Tooley say anything bad about them. Me, I'll take a rifle that runs 100%, 100% of the time. Ohhh no, I'm limited to a couple chassis options and can't get it flaming pink to match my butt plug.
Took my AI to the range today for the first time in 4.5 mos. Cold bore at 600 yds center punched the head of a 60% IPSC target. The rifle is really so accurate and easy to shoot it is boring. I have owned many custom and factory rifles, which have all been amazing in their own right. The AI just does it all a little better. Redneckbmxer24 said it best "I'll take a rifle that runs a 100%,100% of the time." Now all I got to do is kick this S&B PMII to the curb for one of these fancy scopes with a no holds round the house trash can ass kickin warranty and I'll be set.
Custom is great if there are specific features you want and can't get them off the shelf. Lots of highly skilled rifle builders out there that can do amazing work but building a custom gun its YOUR gun and if you ever decide to sell or swap it you are looking for the guy that wants those same features and willing to pay for them. IMHO a factory AI will likely hold its value better than a custom built one.
As a matter of fact, I have built my own rifles. With the only exception of the blueprinting and barrel fitting, I can do it all, including making my own stocks, metal finish, pillar bedding, trigger work, etc. I have had courses in machine tools, and while I do know and understand how to do it, I know just enough to have an apreciation for those who really do know what they are doing. Some day, I hope that I can acquire those very machine tools and learn that part too. I still have a couple self built rifles and use them for hunting. Still doesnt change the fact that the AI is superior in every concievable way that a precision rifle can be.
Lol you really think that even if Tooley had something bad to say about AI he would say it? You would have to be a complete fucking idiot to bad mouth your best client. There's no doubt that the AI is one hell of a gun and it's probably my favorite but they aren't for everyone and the majority of shooters will never have an issue with a custom so I don't know why reliability is always thrown in there. I highly doubt that most people have missed their once in a lifetime shot because of a rifle failure and most of our lives aren't on the line so if one does have a failure it's not the end of the world.
Rifle Reliability Highlights from CMG 2008 Steel Safari - YouTube
It really depends on how each individual decides to use their equipment that will determine the required level of reliability. At the end of the day not having to worry about a rifle that you spent a lot of money on not working is comforting to say the least. Just my opinion FWIW.
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Gonna have to raise a flag on this comment. I have all the tools and the skills to build my own, but still ordered an AI. Yes, two different gunsmith friends of mine asked "Why'd you go and do that, when you can build your own?" My response was "Because the fact that I can build my own, doesn't mean I have to build my own." I ordered the AI so I don't have to worry about mods, reliability and all the other minutae that goes with a custom build.
When I want to shoot, I want to shoot; not show off my handy work or plan what little free time I have from my day job and family to work on my competition rig for the next match.
JMTCW...
That's it! I am selling all my rifles and buying an AI. They are frickin' awesome and the only rifle that works! Can shoot at 20,000 leagues beneath the sea and on the moon! Anyone who doesn't get an AI is just a moron!
I think that being limited to those couple of chassis options is a problem. and if you want it flaming pink to match your butt plug...then send it out and have it cerakoted
I would have expected these types of post in a Savage thread...notsomuch in a "custom rifle" thread.
That's interesting because every time I go to a match the majority of the customs (50% or more) are either getting their bolts pounded home, debris wiped off the bolts after stages, triggers failing and rounds going off when they touch the bolt to eject a live round, double feeds and failures to feed. I see it a lot every time. I see a lot of people do well with customs but I don't want to deal with those problems.
The only time I will stray from AI is when they don't make what I'm looking for, mainly hunting rifles which is why I ordered a manners EH1 that showed up yesterday. To be quite honest I'm not a fan of the pistol grip on the AI's, I prefer the grip of the thumbhole skins or a vertical grip like a manners or McMillan. But my AX has it, my AT has it, and the AXMC I'm buying has it, I make them work and don't whine that the grip could fit me better because everything else about the rifle works so well. I guarantee you that if you ran a AX rifle or chassis off a barricade you wouldn't want to shoot another stock again.
