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AI vs. Custom US build
- Thread starter Why1504
- Start date
Now you are getting it... HAHA
Please don't get me wrong, I am not saying that there is ONLY one way to skin a cat. The question was asked and I spoke my thoughts on the subject. I am by no means trying to degrade the excellent gunsmiths we are lucky enough to have to chose from. Rob, I know that your statement was a bit sarcastic and I can appreciate that I just wanted to clarify my stand point for some of those who are new to this sport.
Yep, I'm convinced now even though I don't get why Tooley would build a rifle on a custom action if AI is the only way to go.
Looks like your percentage is a bit off if you go by this thread. http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...actical-shooters-equipment-what-pros-use.html 5 out of 56 is close haha. I wouldn't have an AI if I was running a .260 after seeing a few threads about piercing the primer on moderate to light loads, kind of defeats the purpose of a .260 if you can't run them on the warm side. That's why I just had a junk ass 700 built instead of the almighty AI.
wow we really are doing this again and the same old lines are coming out.
"I don't have to defend myself so reliability doesn't matter" probably one of the statements i see from time to time that make me want to slowly run people over with a bulldozer. I want you to go look at yourself in a mirror and say that 5 times and if you don't realize how retarded you sound then please go see a doctor and for the hope of our species ensure you are sterilized.
Reliability should always be a key factor in anything, my god really that statement blows me away. I'm a good driver so i don't care if my airbags work, I know how to sky dive so who cares if my reserve is packed right.
Now i don't own everything, i've shot quite a bit. Factory AI, TRG, DTA vs custom GAP, Surgeon, SAC, Tacops, etc? Honestly i fight to tell most new shooters to start with a r700, FN, savage, etc IN 308 (MY GOD DID HE SAY 308?!!!!). I would venture to say i'm not too far off when I say 90 percent of you will never burn out a barrel. It is shown by the rifles that come up for sale in the FS section that are barely broken in, scopes that you still own the box for and don't have a single mark on them. Your selling because thats what you do, you buy and sell the newest thing that us online personalities tell you to. You fan boys need to stop and take a second to breath. Its like this in every community i've ever been in. the italians vs japanese in motorcycles, ford vs chevy vs toyota in trucks. People just want to argue.
How about you shoot what you like and enjoy and don't feel the need to defend it to a million people YOU WILL NEVER MEET!!!!!
Ai's are great guns and offer a lot of cool options like a shorter bolt throw, they run better in the dirt due to loser tolerances, their triggers although two stage which might not be for everyone are very well designed and seem to handle dirty conditions much better then the ever popular jewell or huber or other aftermarket trigger.
AI's stock design isn't for everyone, which is the awesome thing about our industry, you can try a TRG or chose to have any number of amazing smiths build you whatever you want and i'll tell you a secret....
a 260 AI, TRG, DTA, GAP, Surgeon, SAC, tacops etc with the same length barrel.... with the same load..... will pretty much do the EXACT SAME FUCKING THING! its the shooter at that point not the rifle. a action is just a method to extract and feed new rounds. If the smith who barreled it up knows what he is doing it will shoot how you want it to. The rest is up to you.
Rant over but seriously you guys need a life.
"I don't have to defend myself so reliability doesn't matter" probably one of the statements i see from time to time that make me want to slowly run people over with a bulldozer. I want you to go look at yourself in a mirror and say that 5 times and if you don't realize how retarded you sound then please go see a doctor and for the hope of our species ensure you are sterilized.
Reliability should always be a key factor in anything, my god really that statement blows me away. I'm a good driver so i don't care if my airbags work, I know how to sky dive so who cares if my reserve is packed right.
Now i don't own everything, i've shot quite a bit. Factory AI, TRG, DTA vs custom GAP, Surgeon, SAC, Tacops, etc? Honestly i fight to tell most new shooters to start with a r700, FN, savage, etc IN 308 (MY GOD DID HE SAY 308?!!!!). I would venture to say i'm not too far off when I say 90 percent of you will never burn out a barrel. It is shown by the rifles that come up for sale in the FS section that are barely broken in, scopes that you still own the box for and don't have a single mark on them. Your selling because thats what you do, you buy and sell the newest thing that us online personalities tell you to. You fan boys need to stop and take a second to breath. Its like this in every community i've ever been in. the italians vs japanese in motorcycles, ford vs chevy vs toyota in trucks. People just want to argue.
How about you shoot what you like and enjoy and don't feel the need to defend it to a million people YOU WILL NEVER MEET!!!!!
Ai's are great guns and offer a lot of cool options like a shorter bolt throw, they run better in the dirt due to loser tolerances, their triggers although two stage which might not be for everyone are very well designed and seem to handle dirty conditions much better then the ever popular jewell or huber or other aftermarket trigger.
AI's stock design isn't for everyone, which is the awesome thing about our industry, you can try a TRG or chose to have any number of amazing smiths build you whatever you want and i'll tell you a secret....
a 260 AI, TRG, DTA, GAP, Surgeon, SAC, tacops etc with the same length barrel.... with the same load..... will pretty much do the EXACT SAME FUCKING THING! its the shooter at that point not the rifle. a action is just a method to extract and feed new rounds. If the smith who barreled it up knows what he is doing it will shoot how you want it to. The rest is up to you.
Rant over but seriously you guys need a life.
AI doesn't sponsor shooters as of yet, if they you'd see more top shooters running their stuff. I said before you can do well with a custom which is obvious looking at how many people are running them compared to others. I just don't want to deal with the issues or waste time on the clock trying to fix a malfunction.
The majority of you guys couldn't make a valid point with a pencil after it's been sharpened ...
AI, Sako, etc.. have control over every part and manufacturing process in their rifles. All the best gunsmiths out there are using parts from a bunch of different manufactures that they have no control over. Then they are trying to shoehorn all these parts from various manufactures together and make them work. If something goes wrong on a custom rifle the gunsmith can point his finger in a bunch of directions. If something goes wrong on a factory rifle the finger can only be pointed one way. I'm not a fanboy I just love guns period. If you ask me AI vs. Custom, I say AI but I would still own a custom.
I think it's interesting that reliability comes up in these threads. My savage came with a cracked bolt head, my Accuracy International stopped extracting rounds, my Sako TRG shot 7 MOA to the left, my anschutz's bolt stop broke. All of these things have been corrected, but the point is in my experience my expensive rifles, e.g. my accuracy international are no more "reliable" than my cheap rifles. With that said, I'm quite pleased with my AI, but it hasn't proven to be any more reliable.
To the OP's question, I chose an AI because of availability. I'm too impatient to wait.
Bob
To the OP's question, I chose an AI because of availability. I'm too impatient to wait.
Bob
I'd also like to add another little factual tidbit... Each AI you own adds a foot of length to your pecker, and yes, mine now drags the ground.
Very well said.
We all have our preferences and in our own mind we are completely justified in choosing brand X over brand Y. We have all had different experiences with our equipment which lead us down the path to where we are now. Like I said before we are all very lucky to have the options available to us that make these discussions possible. I know what works for me and have been lucky enough to have owned enough different rifles to have no doubt in my choice. Back to the OPs question, no one can tell you the correct answer for your situation. You can only gather information that you have on hand determine what is useful and what is not then based on that make a short list and then start getting hands on. Good luck in your search, there are a lot of very knowledgeable and helpful people here that can sometimes provide a different perspective on things.
Agreed. As I said before, everyone has an opinion (and they are entitled to it), and it seems that if you don't agree with someone else's it turns into a grudge match of A vs. B. I will maintain that I like AI, but my rifles are fit for me and I like 'em that way. No need to turn this into another Savage vs. the world thread. Can't we all just get along for once?
How does an AI not "fit for you" you can adjust the stock in a variety of ways, in many cases more so than a Custom Fiberglas stock.... Lol wait let me guess, I don't like the "thumb hole / pistol grip but use a vertical grip on my MCM / Manners" defense, as if.
like I said, couldn't make a point even with a sharpened pencil.
What is comical is those who decry when people point out the stupidity of a point and then call it a Ford vs Chevy argument. No, it's a stupid vs valid one, if you throw something against the wall and it doesn't stick, that is your issue... Not the debates.
like I said, couldn't make a point even with a sharpened pencil.
What is comical is those who decry when people point out the stupidity of a point and then call it a Ford vs Chevy argument. No, it's a stupid vs valid one, if you throw something against the wall and it doesn't stick, that is your issue... Not the debates.
LowLight, A few years ago I was hot for a AI AE 308 but found that my large hand did not feel comfortable on the AI's thumb hole stock, when I tried the TRG 22 it immediately felt great. The TRG went home with me. It's what BigJoe29 was saying, It's up to personnel preference there's no reason to fight over something like this.....
Guys, I had what I thought was a legitimate question, what is the difference between an Accuracy International and a custom build.
Here is what I have learned, there isn't much difference, except the AI is an of the shelf gun and the customs aren't. Otherwise they are "close". There are ergonomic differences possibly some reliability issues. I can get the IA much quicker. I really didn't think Accuracy International was equal with custom builds. They obviously are.
After this, it becomes personal preference.
My thread has been enlightening. I really don't want it to sink into a flame war. Thank you all for sharing your knowledge. Sharing your knowledge leaves your mark on the world.
Here is what I have learned, there isn't much difference, except the AI is an of the shelf gun and the customs aren't. Otherwise they are "close". There are ergonomic differences possibly some reliability issues. I can get the IA much quicker. I really didn't think Accuracy International was equal with custom builds. They obviously are.
After this, it becomes personal preference.
My thread has been enlightening. I really don't want it to sink into a flame war. Thank you all for sharing your knowledge. Sharing your knowledge leaves your mark on the world.
Never said I don't like the thumbhole/pistol grip stock. I do have a McMillan, so there's no arguing that. I just didn't feel right behind the AI when I shot it is all. I'm a giant with gorilla arms and a big chest so I have a ridiculous length of pull, and while I realize that you can put spacers on a stock and what not, you will find that I only have one mcmillan and the rest of my stocks have been custom modified fiberglass or handmade wood stocks. I'm not here to argue that AI's are inferior, as I never said as much. I was just putting my opinion on the subject at hand in. How's it it stupid to not like an AI anyways? As a member here am I not allowed to have an opinion and not like a certain rifle manufacturer? I didn't come here to be chastised for not being an AI fanboy.
I would like to reiterate (again) that this is simply my opinion, and no one has to agree with it. It is just how I feel about it.
I would like to reiterate (again) that this is simply my opinion, and no one has to agree with it. It is just how I feel about it.
I've had both......The AI is still in my safe the customs aren't......Love the feeling when I get behind the AI and know it will perform no matter the conditions
My customs were smooth and accurate but the became less smooth the longer I used them in field conditions and required more cleaning and maintenance my AI just works
The down side is it takes all excuses away leaving nothing except the nut behind the butt to blame
My customs were smooth and accurate but the became less smooth the longer I used them in field conditions and required more cleaning and maintenance my AI just works
The down side is it takes all excuses away leaving nothing except the nut behind the butt to blame
One day I opened up my safe and took a look at my TRG and my custom defiance/AICS AX bolt gun and told myself , "If I sold both these guns I could just get an AX"...part of me knew I'd miss both as they were both great rifles.
Then reality set in... I'd realized that I wouldn't need the TRG or the custom gun anymore once I got the AX. So bye bye they went and I ordered an AX.
I thought I could never afford an AI AX. But I could all along, I just didn't realize it until that day.
Then reality set in... I'd realized that I wouldn't need the TRG or the custom gun anymore once I got the AX. So bye bye they went and I ordered an AX.
I thought I could never afford an AI AX. But I could all along, I just didn't realize it until that day.
Not looking to join an argument. I bought an AI mostly because of the standard barrel measurement. I am for the most part a "one rifle guy" in that the majority of rounds I put down range are through my AIAX. I like the rifle because it fits me, it's as accurate as anything I've seen, and most importantly I don't have to send it out and wait 6 months while a barrel is being put on.
As Joe pointed out, most shooters will never know a rifle intimately enough to shoot a barrel out, but I do. 6k rounds through the original .308 barrel and the performance is starting to get spotty. I own a bench mounted dedicated barrel vice, a torque wrench, and an action wrench. I put on a .260 barrel when I feel like it, and take it off when I feel like it.
I've seen a lot of custom builds that I like a lot, and shot a fair number of them. To each their own.
As Joe pointed out, most shooters will never know a rifle intimately enough to shoot a barrel out, but I do. 6k rounds through the original .308 barrel and the performance is starting to get spotty. I own a bench mounted dedicated barrel vice, a torque wrench, and an action wrench. I put on a .260 barrel when I feel like it, and take it off when I feel like it.
I've seen a lot of custom builds that I like a lot, and shot a fair number of them. To each their own.
There is only two things that make them different... Two things separate a custom from an AI.
Weight
Trigger
The stock you can debate, but many have custom rifles built in chassis, or use a vertical grip, which is the same thing, the thickness of the grip you might be able to say is different, but there are plenty of "big guys" who have zero issues with an AI Chassis and frankly, nobody complains that an AR grip doesn't work, and those are even smaller. If the thumbhole is small, put the pistol grip skins on it.
The decision comes down to weight, because you can spec a custom rifle lighter, and the trigger, you can spec a single stage trigger, every thing else is absolutely identical when it comes to accuracy. You can put any barrel on it you want, and you can debate actions, but overall you'll have better odds with an AI over a custom shop's action 99% of the time and most custom actions use the same AI magazine system so all that is a wash. However the majority will never see the difference between a Defiance Action and an AI action, or a Badger and AI, it's so minor it's not worth talking about.
Weight and Trigger, any other debate is a one off, personal choice thing that has no foundation in the debate when it comes to others. If you "feel" something that is 100% on you, and should not be a deciding factor for anyone else. It's irrelevant to the conversation, it's like trying to convince someone to marry your wife's twin sister. It's a worthless argument.
Weight
Trigger
The stock you can debate, but many have custom rifles built in chassis, or use a vertical grip, which is the same thing, the thickness of the grip you might be able to say is different, but there are plenty of "big guys" who have zero issues with an AI Chassis and frankly, nobody complains that an AR grip doesn't work, and those are even smaller. If the thumbhole is small, put the pistol grip skins on it.
The decision comes down to weight, because you can spec a custom rifle lighter, and the trigger, you can spec a single stage trigger, every thing else is absolutely identical when it comes to accuracy. You can put any barrel on it you want, and you can debate actions, but overall you'll have better odds with an AI over a custom shop's action 99% of the time and most custom actions use the same AI magazine system so all that is a wash. However the majority will never see the difference between a Defiance Action and an AI action, or a Badger and AI, it's so minor it's not worth talking about.
Weight and Trigger, any other debate is a one off, personal choice thing that has no foundation in the debate when it comes to others. If you "feel" something that is 100% on you, and should not be a deciding factor for anyone else. It's irrelevant to the conversation, it's like trying to convince someone to marry your wife's twin sister. It's a worthless argument.
Pretty much everything has been covered already but I have a few things to comment on in case you or others might be able to use this info.
I bought a TRG with the intention of later selling and getting a AI. I tried to like the 60 degree bolt throw and heavier two stage trigger and found out that they weren't for me being too used to single stage triggers set at 19oz and 90 degree bolt throw so I never did become a convert. I later found out that AI has a larger firing pin hole which doesn't suit the x47L cartridges all that well due to excess primer flow. Now that I'm getting older weight is becoming a issue for offhand so there's 4 strikes against ever buying what might be the most reliable precision factory rifle around.
You make a good point Frank, however isn't also a matter of personal choice? Everyone seems to be skirting around the point that when you are spending YOUR OWN hard earned money it comes down to personal choice, and personally I choose custom over AI. It's really as simple as that. Battle proven, bulletproof, apocalypse survivable reliability may be important to some people, but not to me. I will always have what I like to shoot, not whats fashionable because everyone else has one. And nothing will ever change that.
Freedom of choice and opinion. 'Merica.
Freedom of choice and opinion. 'Merica.
Where does the m40a5, m40a3, and m24 fit there? Would they be considered a US custom? I ask because I dont hear much about them failing and I'd say they have been pretty damn well battle tested over the last decade. With that said I am in the process of getting an AI because I like features.
Sent from my GT-N5110 using Tapatalk
Sent from my GT-N5110 using Tapatalk
Military guns are battle tested because the users are required to use them not because they chose them. Big difference
Lowlight beat me to it......like Ford versus Chevy. We can yap all day long about it. Personal preference.
I have been behind pleanty of rifles and the more I shoot tactical rifles the more I think AI is pretty hard to beat. I wish they were a tad lighter, but I could also do a little more PT. I also recommend the TRG. That is a lot of rifle for the money . Mine has a 6x47L barrel that was done by Chad Dixon that is as accurate and repeatable as one could ask for.
They do reasonably well but the reality is, they are production hunting rifle actions that were designed for low cost mass production and modified for a precision application. Even the customs are just adaptations to that platform. Just really isnt any way they can compete with a purpose designed, military grade precision rifle.
Well AI releases a very limited number of factory left hand rifles and they are even more rarely sold below MSRP(Street price and MSRP tend to be the closest on lefty AIs.)
So there you have it! Custom is better because it's easier to get a left handed action.
/thread.
So there you have it! Custom is better because it's easier to get a left handed action.
/thread.
What's the expected POI shift for moon shooting? Gravitational drop at 100yd zero on earth is ~3" for most calibers, and gravity is something like 1/6th of the earth's on the moon, so you dial down 2.75 MOA?
Then I suppose you have to adjust your BC for the low/no atmosphere environment. Too bad there's no gravity input for my ballistic calculator. It may not work at all.
Seriously, I would have had a tough time picking between an AT and my LRI custom if AT's were available last year. I would have to go play with their stock/chassis to see if I like it. That said, I wanted to keep it light(er) and simple, so I don't know how the aluminum chassis and everything would play out. I would also immediately replace the barrel on the AT to a 6.5mm offering. Not a big deal I suppose, but still something to consider.
Which is right for you is dependent on your needs. If you like AI stock fitment and don't mind the weight, it's a great platform.
If you need to carry it up a mountain hunting, it may not fit your needs very well. Again, all what you need out of it and what works for you.
If you need to carry it up a mountain hunting, it may not fit your needs very well. Again, all what you need out of it and what works for you.
I will break it down for you
AI is ready out of box to go to war.
Custom can be a weapon of war or a game weapon depending on who built with what parts.
Both can be great.
Now I don't own an AI but on a few occasions I needed to spec weapons for teams going into hostile situations. I never hesitated I just got bids for AI's because I did not have time or logistics to deal with some of the potential problems a custom can have getting ready for war or taking care of in war. The AI was already proven.
All my personal weapons are either customs or out of box Savages and Remingtons depending on use. Because I am broken and not going to hostile areas again.
The Savages serve me well in Comp, extreme range and Police Type Sniper Instruction. The Remingtons are because I carried them for a very long time and know I can count on them. My favorite rifle ever is my GAP Built TIS Special because it was custom made to my specs and has served me well for ten plus years and nearly ten thousand rounds. I would not hesitate to take that rifle to war or one like it.
If your building a rifle for comp or your only rifle to do exactly what you want I would go with GAP or another good Custom smith with proven track record and be happy. If you have a budget I would buy a Savage and work around the changes you would like as you can afford it.
If your buying a weapon to go to war with it would be hard to beat an AI
AI is ready out of box to go to war.
Custom can be a weapon of war or a game weapon depending on who built with what parts.
Both can be great.
Now I don't own an AI but on a few occasions I needed to spec weapons for teams going into hostile situations. I never hesitated I just got bids for AI's because I did not have time or logistics to deal with some of the potential problems a custom can have getting ready for war or taking care of in war. The AI was already proven.
All my personal weapons are either customs or out of box Savages and Remingtons depending on use. Because I am broken and not going to hostile areas again.
The Savages serve me well in Comp, extreme range and Police Type Sniper Instruction. The Remingtons are because I carried them for a very long time and know I can count on them. My favorite rifle ever is my GAP Built TIS Special because it was custom made to my specs and has served me well for ten plus years and nearly ten thousand rounds. I would not hesitate to take that rifle to war or one like it.
If your building a rifle for comp or your only rifle to do exactly what you want I would go with GAP or another good Custom smith with proven track record and be happy. If you have a budget I would buy a Savage and work around the changes you would like as you can afford it.
If your buying a weapon to go to war with it would be hard to beat an AI
Plenty of Surgeons, Remingtons, and now Stillers have defended our country. Plenty of AIs have deployed too. Get what you like or feels right to you. They are all wonderful tools and in the end you have to be happy with it. I know people who run Badgers, Surgeons, AIs, Defiance, etc, and I have owned and shot many of them. Theya ll have their pros and cons. We live in a spoiled age of LR shooting. Try what you like and see what fits you. Anybody who tells you something is 100% reliable is FOS. If you shoot enough you'll see everything go down. I've seen my Surgeon go down with FTF because of a trigger failure, Remingtons with bad extractors and stuck bolts from over pressure issues, AIs with FTF/pierced primers. Every company has something go tits up, sometimes at the worst moments. If someone tells you their company's product doesn't, it's because they are trying to sell you something. The tools we use are man made. Man is prone to error, so then are the tools we make. In this age we are spoiled with a wide range of high quality options. Either buy a wonderfully reliable AI, or have a rifle built to your specs. Just remember with these rifles, when you skate the edge of performance, you skate the edge of reliability. Just like a race car. These guys that run bench weighted and spec'd out triggers and complain about trigger issues are setting themselves up for failure. It's not Jewels', Timney's, or any other company's fault. Buy the tool for the job, don't force the tool into a role it wasn't designed for. That's like taking a Porsche to an off road competition. Just because you can afford it does not mean you know how to use it. Look at what your end state is and make a plan to decide what fits your needs. Not what Recoil reader of the month tells you.
