AIAX Problem: Out of spec ammo, firearm, or something else?

[Coloradocop]

I just shot my brand spankin' new AIAX .260 for the first time today, and I'm already falling in love with this gun, save for one problem. When attempting to eject my brass I've had a bit of an issue with getting the bolt to unlock, and I'm trying to figure out where the problem might be (I suspect ammo, but I'm not positive about that).

Here's what's happening:

When I go to eject a spent cartridge the bolt handle moves upwards just fine. However, the bolt handle stops/binds/something (on some shots) short of where it needs to be so that the bolt can be moved rearward. In a couple of instances I *really* had to fight the thing to get the cartridge out of the gun (including coming off of the gun and sitting next to it scratching my head on one of the shots). My shooting partner also looked at the gun and agreed that something definitely wasn't right with this. I've fired shots with two AW's in the past and two AE's, but have never seen this issue. Anyway, once the bolt handle comes to a stop (near the top of the 60-degree throw) and you continue to push the bolt handle up hard enough (again, very hard in some cases) it will slide back just fine and release the fired casing.

I've yet to receive my reloading dies for this rifle, so thus far I've only fired 14 rounds from one box of Southwest Ammunition ammo (SSA brass headstamp, 139 grain scenar bullets). The gun has literally only had these 14 rounds through it, all from this one box of ammo, and the degree of bolt-moving difficulty has varied quite a bit from shot to shot. As such, I suspect ammo as the culprit (though I've heard pretty good things about Southwest around here).

Also, I've reinserted a couple of the empty cases into the gun from this box, and had still had difficulty moving the bolt. However, I tried this same experiment with a brand new empty Lapua case and had no difficulty locking the case into the chamber or ejecting it (granted it was never fired before, but still). I've also found that the loaded ammunition I have has given me trouble chambering (just a bit difficult), whereas the empty Lapua cases have not.

I wish I could check this issue against other ammunition, but there isn't exactly a bunch of factory-loaded .260 Rem ammo out there on store shelves for me to play with right now. As such, this is the only brand of ammo I have on hand until my reloading dies get here and I can start rolling my own.

Any thoughts on the cause of this problem, or how to proceed with it? Is it common to find either out-of-spec AI's or out-of-spec ammo from Southwest? I can't figure it's anything else, but I'm asking just in case!

 

[BenTerrible]

Bad brass.

Don't panic. The AI is in spec, rest assured. You already performed the test when you tried the Lapua brass in your chamber.

I had the exact same problem happen to me with Hornady brass. Brand new rifle from Barrett. I was running factory Hornady 285gr 338 lapua ammunition. First round, bolt was stuck shut. Literally had to tap the bolt handle upward, then had to carefully insert a cleaning rod with a jag down the barrrel and into the spent case to drive it out of the chamber. I wound up sending the hornady ammunition back to them for inspection. Weeks later Hornady called and said all 5 boxes of ammo were junk. The cases were all too soft.

I switched to Lapua brass and the rifle runs flawless.

 

[S12A]

Sounds like poorly formed/sized brass to me (purely going off info available) . Had the same thing with federal brass and lee RGB dies

 

[diverdon]

260 remington ammo rifle Lots of ammo out there. I would order some different ammo before blaming the ammo for sure.

 

[victorz]

Like other said, ammo problem. Try other factory ammo to see. Had same problem before when loading too hot. If it stuck again, don't force the bolt, let it cool down a bit, it will come out easy.

 

[chrisward3]

might be worth checking out the chamber also. My 700 in an AX chassis got a light rust in the chamber after shooting in -30*C and bringing it inside afterwards. Chamber-checking rounds during my next reloading session revealed this problem. Not likely considering its a brand new rifle, and I would suspect brass also, but shine a flashlight in there quick just to be sure.

 

[jagged77]

I've had a similar problem with once fired .338 cases, turned out the cases were slightly bulged down by the rim (after firing from a mil spec chamber) just where a full length resizing die stops - caused a real problem with the bolt just as you describe. Might not be the same thing but it's something to consider.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

A friend had the same issue in his new AI AX 308, it was the brass with 20+ firings on it. He ran new Lapua brass and the problem went away.

 

[sib1948]

Definitely an ammom issue. Never a problem with my two 260 DTA barrels with Lapua brass. Don't be bummed about your fine rifle. Now your know how to feed her!

 

[E. Bryant]

Everything about this situation sounds like an ammo problem. I would recommend contacting the manufacturer of the ammunition for resolution. If you have measurement tools, you could also measure the diameter of the problematic ammo (unfired) at a few different points, and check it against your unfired Lapua cases. I suspect this will quickly reveal a dimensional problem.

 

[nexusfire]

SSA brass is thicker. You need to back off your load by about 5 grains if I recall correctly when reloading. I dont recommend it from personal experience. Try another brand or reload some lapua brass.

 

[Coloradocop]

Like other said, ammo problem. Try other factory ammo to see. Had same problem before when loading too hot. If it stuck again, don't force the bolt, let it cool down a bit, it will come out easy.

Just for clarification, the case sticks badly even without it being hot. I took some of the empty cases from this box when I got home and tried feeding them compared to the unfired Lapua brass and the cases from this box still stuck. Granted, I wish it was more of an apples-to-apples comparison (rather than a once-fired case compared to a brand new case). BUT, prior to firing they were a bit sticky going in and out, too (I just chocked it up to "new gun stuff" at that time).

SSA brass is thicker. You need to back off your load by about 5 grains if I recall correctly when reloading. I dont recommend it from personal experience. Try another brand or reload some lapua brass.

This is factory loaded ammo from Southwest Ammunition in SSA brass... I haven't loaded anything for this caliper yet, since I don't yet have dies for it.

Everything about this situation sounds like an ammo problem. I would recommend contacting the manufacturer of the ammunition for resolution. If you have measurement tools, you could also measure the diameter of the problematic ammo (unfired) at a few different points, and check it against your unfired Lapua cases. I suspect this will quickly reveal a dimensional problem.

I'm certainly glad to hear that everyone else seems to also believe this is an ammo issue, which was my thought as well. The thing is, using calipers at different places on the case has not yet really given me any dimensions that are out of spec. Perhaps the shoulder is in the wrong place, since that's a tough one to accurately measure with a plain caliper, but I'm not entirely sure what else it can be.

I've been sitting here with a case diagram (in the Lyman reloading manual) and comparing it to one of the problematic fired cases. The only dimension that is out of spec (that I can measure for) is the case diameter just prior to the shoulder on a FIRED case. My diagram shows this dimension at 0.4540", and my caliper gives me a reading of 0.455". But, that's only 0.001" over spec, and the case HAS been fired without any resizing yet. The 6 remaining unfired rounds from this box appear to be within spec at this measurement point.

I don't have a cartridge headspace gauge for this caliber yet, so I can't really check the shoulder dimensions in any meaningful way. But, here's the numbers I've come up with using an unfired Lapua case, and an unfired (but loaded round) of the Southwest Ammunition in SSA brass:

Measurement of case length:

SW Ammo, SSA brass: 2.020"
Lapua Brass: 2.027"

Measurement of case diameter just forward of the cartridge rim:

SW Ammo, SSA Brass: 0.468"
Lapua Brass: 0.468"

Measurement of the case diameter just prior to the shoulder:

Southwest Ammo, SSA Brass: 0.450"
Lapua Brass: 0.451"

Measurement of the case diameter on the case neck:

Southwest Ammo, SSA Brass: 0.294" (again a bullet is seated in this case - cartridge diagram gives a dimension of 0.297")
Lapua Brass: 0.292"

 

[nexusfire]

Just for clarification, the case sticks badly even without it being hot. I took some of the empty cases from this box when I got home and tried feeding them compared to the unfired Lapua brass and the cases from this box still stuck. Granted, I wish it was more of an apples-to-apples comparison (rather than a once-fired case compared to a brand new case). BUT, prior to firing they were a bit sticky going in and out, too (I just chocked it up to "new gun stuff" at that time).



This is factory loaded ammo from Southwest Ammunition in SSA brass... I haven't loaded anything for this caliper yet, since I don't yet have dies for it.



I'm certainly glad to hear that everyone else seems to also believe this is an ammo issue, which was my thought as well. The thing is, using calipers at different places on the case has not yet really given me any dimensions that are out of spec. Perhaps the shoulder is in the wrong place, since that's a tough one to accurately measure with a plain caliper, but I'm not entirely sure what else it can be.

I've been sitting here with a case diagram (in the Lyman reloading manual) and comparing it to one of the problematic fired cases. The only dimension that is out of spec (that I can measure for) is the case diameter just prior to the shoulder on a FIRED case. My diagram shows this dimension at 0.4540", and my caliper gives me a reading of 0.455". But, that's only 0.001" over spec, and the case HAS been fired without any resizing yet. The 6 remaining unfired rounds from this box appear to be within spec at this measurement point.

I don't have a cartridge headspace gauge for this caliber yet, so I can't really check the shoulder dimensions in any meaningful way. But, here's the numbers I've come up with using an unfired Lapua case, and an unfired (but loaded round) of the Southwest Ammunition in SSA brass:

Measurement of case length:

SW Ammo, SSA brass: 2.020"
Lapua Brass: 2.027"

Measurement of case diameter just forward of the cartridge rim:

SW Ammo, SSA Brass: 0.468"
Lapua Brass: 0.468"

Measurement of the case diameter just prior to the shoulder:

Southwest Ammo, SSA Brass: 0.450"
Lapua Brass: 0.451"

Measurement of the case diameter on the case neck:

Southwest Ammo, SSA Brass: 0.294" (again a bullet is seated in this case - cartridge diagram gives a dimension of 0.297")
Lapua Brass: 0.292"

Just try different ammo and I am confident that the issue will go away

Sent from my XT1060 using Tapatalk

 

[turbo54]

Sharpie-up a spent SSA case.

Chamber it.

Extract it.

See where the sharpie is rubbed off - my guess is the bottom 3/8" of the body.

Was this ammo advertised as NEW??

 

[TimK]

I don't know where you are in Colorado, but there are a lot of us here shooting .260. I'll bet you could find someone close with some ammo you could chamber.

I'm in Woodland Park, though I doubt that helps you.

 

[IrishArrow]

I'm up here in Greeley if you need to try a different type(s) of .260. I run a AX260 as well.

 

[Graham]

AIAX Problem: Out of spec ammo, firearm, or something else?

Switch ammo and see if the problem persists. Chances are that it's a brass/sizing issue. I've seen it before in that brand of ammo, in both .260 and .308.

 

[tnichols]

I had a similar problem with my AE in .260 using SWA's SSA headstamped 142 SMK load. I called and talked to Mike at SWA and he agreed that it was a brass/ammo problem. He offered a call tag to the send the ammo back and we are in the midst of getting ammo in Lapua brass sent my way. When I encountered this issue, I only ran 3 rounds of the SWA ammo through the gun and stopped. I then ran Copper Creek's Lapua brassed 142 smk load through it with no issues what so ever. Shot great without the "extraction" issue.

It's a brass/ammo problem in my eyes. Nothing wrong with your new stick. Run something different through it and watch it hammer.

 

[Coloradocop]

UPDATE:

First, I appreciate all of the helpful information from everyone here on the 'hide! It's always tougher to diagnose these things with a new and previously untested rifle that has issues with the very first box of ammo I put through it (had this happened on the .308Win I've been shooting for years the problem would have been obvious).

Anyway, I'm convinced that it is a problem with Southwest Ammunition Company's ammo. I went to the store today and bought one box each of the only two types of .260 Rem ammo they had on the shelves (an overpriced box of Rem Core-Locks, and a box of Barnes tipped TSX's). Anyway, I loaded the magazine with the ammo from each of these manufacturers and the loaded rounds cycled just perfectly through the rifle. I then loaded the magazine with the remaining six rounds from this first box of the SW ammo, and had some difficulty getting the bolt to lock/unlock (not as bad as post-firing yesterday, but enough that it took a bit of wiggling). I have two more boxes of this stuff (but with the 142gr bullet) sitting here as well.

While I was at the store I also picked up a headspace insert for the .260. I thought this was probably the problem (with a shoulder set too far forward) but I don't believe that's the case, either. The length measured from this datum point was as follows: SW Ammo, loaded: 1.620". Barnes Loaded: 1.620". Remington Loaded: 1.618". SW Ammo (fired): 1.626".

My next thought was that the problem may have been mid-body on the case (as Turbo mentioned). This area had some wear marks on it after cycling through the gun, so I thought I'd try to measure that spot. It's a bit tough to get a measurement on the exact same spot on each case, and it's probably pretty critical to do so if I want an accurate comparison (since the cases taper from the base to the shoulder). Anyway, I tried setting the cases next to an item with a fixed height of about 1/2", and then laying the calipers across the top of it to measure the cases as best I could in precisely the same spot. This gave me the following results (all on loaded ammo, with a few pieces of each measured):

Mid-body case measurements:

SW Ammo: .468"
Remington: .465"
Barnes: .464"

I'll admit that 3-thousandths of an inch doesn't sound like much, but I imagine it could be enough to cause this problem if that pushes it above the specs for a chamber at that point.


BOTTOM LINE:

This appears to be a clear ammo-related issue. I need to go to work now, but I'm planning to call either (or both) Southwest Ammunition and Mile High tomorrow to discuss the issue, since I still have two more boxes of this stuff here at the house. I figure SW makes the stuff, so they might be able to address the issue. I bought it from Mile High, so I am curious to hear if they've had this problem with this ammo before (I think they have at least a pallet worth of this stuff at their store, and they're good folks up there).

Problems happen from time-to-time, but with $115 worth of their ammo sitting here, I'm hoping it is something they'll address. I'll update this thread as I know more!

 

[Black-X]

So you haven't talked with Southwest about the ammo yet?

 

[Coloradocop]

So you haven't talked with Southwest about the ammo yet?

Nope. I wasn't originally sure that it was their ammo and not the new gun, and couldn't really determine that fact for sure until I got some other ammo to compare it next to. As such, I didn't want to call them up and say it was the fault of their ammo when it was a condition occurring in a new and unproven gun. I posted my last reply just as soon as I checked the two other types of new factory ammo in the rifle, and made some measurements on the ammo. I had to leave to work after that (where I am now).

So, I'll probably call them tomorrow, but I just simply haven't had the chance yet. Like I said, sometimes production mistakes occur, so as long as they make it right I won't really have any complaints. I'll keep you guys posted.

 

[gimpy]

Is the bold font necessary? They have seemed to address any concerns that have been raised here in the past.

 

[Coloradocop]

Is the bold font necessary? They have seemed to address any concerns that have been raised here in the past.

Necessary? No. Just added for mild emphasis on the root of the problem... I was simply trying to hone in on the key point of that long post, and that was that the problem was ammo related and not gun related. But, I removed the bold text in the interest of fairness to them. Nevertheless, I'm convinced that their ammo was the cause of the problem in this case, and I'm glad to hear that they have decent customer service (I'll report back after I have the chance to talk to them personally).

 

[Coloradocop]

So, I spoke to Kristen at Southwest Ammunition on Thursday, and then again to her and Mike (the owner) on Friday. They were both pleasant to work with, and said that they'll send me a return shipping label on Monday so that I can get this issue resolved. I'm still not sure what exact issue with this ammunition has caused these cycling problems, but I've since tested factory rounds from Barnes and Remington (along with empty Lapua cases) and they've each cycled very smoothly through the gun.

Southwest assured me that they'd resolve this issue, but said that it might be a month or so until they make another batch of .260 with which to replace this ammo. I'll add more information as I have it!

 

[Coloradocop]

Thought I'd update this thread with some additional information. First, I received a return shipping label from Southwest, so I'll be sending them the problem ammo to examine. They seem like nice folks, so I expect they'll take care of this.

Anyway, I went to the range today with a fellow 'hider, and we played around with this situation a bit in between shooting other ammo. He's shooting an AIAE 260, whereas I'm shooting an AIAX 260. His rifle reportedly has a very loose chamber, and was able to chamber this ammo without a problem. My rifle still wouldn't cycle this ammo properly (obviously). We didn't fire any of this stuff since I'm sending it back to SW, but it was surprising to see that one rifle would cycle the ammo while the other wouldn't.

I also fired the other two types of factory ammo I had acquired, and found that both of those would feed and extract very smoothly in my gun (some Remington Core-Lokts, which are about as accurate as throwing rocks, and some Barnes hunting loads that shot okay). My handloads in Lapua brass also cycled very smoothly through the new gun.

So, the only conclusion I can draw on all of this is that the AE we had available has a looser cut chamber, while my AX has a tighter cut chamber. As such, it is perhaps possible that the Southwest Ammo was slightly out of spec, and perhaps just enough so that it was evident when cycled through my gun. Anyway, that's just a hunch... I mainly wanted to be sure to update this thread as I had promised.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

If they are both AINA factory bartliens it's highly unlikely the chambers are different. You've got a ammo problem, not a rifle problem.