AK acceptable accuracy, need help

[m4a3master]

I'm shooting 2" to the left. This is my second SGL21, and the last one did the same thing. What would it (2" left @ 25 yds) be at 100 yards?

Is this acceptable accuracy from a SGL21 7.62x39? First group (in Red). Second group (in blue) was adjusted by rear sight. Both aimed at center of 2" target.

Specs:
5 Shot group
Tulammo FMJ 122gr
25 Yards
Benchrest (taking my time)
Iron Sights

 

[BBJones13]

Re: AK acceptable accuracy, need help

Have you considered adjusting your front sight. That would take care of the shooting to the left problem. try golden tiger or brown bear.

FYI - 2" at 25 yards = 8" at 100 yards

 

[m4a3master]

Re: AK acceptable accuracy, need help

Thank you for the calculation! 8" is a lot. The last sgl I had, had to be pushed too far to the left imo (it was all the way over to one side). That's why I got rid of it. I'd hate to have to do it again.

 

[Snipers]

Re: AK acceptable accuracy, need help

AK = 3 to 4 MOA
Assumes:
1) Good ammo
2) Supported from bench
3) Rigid optical sight (irons have a short radius)
4) Competent shooter
5) Quality manufacture of weapon (appears that you have the best)

Good luck!

 

[marduk185]

Re: AK acceptable accuracy, need help

2-3moa at best in my experience. ak's are not precise. adjust your sights apropriately and ive found 154 grain ammo is more accurate out of most guns if you can locate some. the common 123 grain trash is usually 8 inches of paper plate-tastic at 100 yards
ak's are not only inherently a little less precise due to design parameters but theyre also plagued by a few features that hinder the shooters ability to shootem well. namely sloppy trigger and poor sights.
also the cartridge/barrel length combo produces a wonderfully rainbow arc-like trajectory which starts really killing the whole "point target hope" beyond 300 yards anyway.
the categories the ak really shines in are cost effectiveness, terminal performance(i.e. it tears the hell right out of flesh it connects with, vastly better wound causing than 556), and indestructibly rugged dependability with little or no maintenance.
basically this system requires a "it is what it is" philosophy for one to truly grasp and apreciate the platforms awesome badassness.

 

[BCP]

Re: AK acceptable accuracy, need help

AK accuracy:

100 yards = hits bad guy
200 yards = probably hits bad guy
300 yards = scares bad guy

That being said:

You have a lot more vertical than horizontal which could mean you're part of the problem...practice, practice, practice...

 

[Rovieairto]

Re: AK acceptable accuracy, need help

Buy this: (If you haven't already)
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/SKS400-31.html

Straighten out the windage and map it at varying distances.
I've pushed to 600 yards and my rifle didn't perform well at any distance, but it follows the sight ranges pretty well if I call them yards and not meters.
To hit a silhouette, I'd need to be about 300 yards or closer.
Yours will likely do better than mine.

This is the equipment you have.
Don't blame it but learn to use it well.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

Re: AK acceptable accuracy, need help

Ahh the "ak's aren't accurate" crowd. I'll see if I can dig up the video my buddy got of me smacking a 12"X12" plate at 600 yards with my Yugo M70B1 in stock form with wolf ammo 17 out of 20 shots. That was after about 5 sighter shots to get on target and another friend spotting for me. Either way that's 2MOA at 600 yards which is impressive from any open sight rifle.

 

[MD2Colo]

Re: AK acceptable accuracy, need help

Our shitty Afghan-government (mostly stamped Russian AKs) guns shoot average 1-2" groups at 25 meters. Wolf ammo, guns are in horrible condition tho. fwiw

-edit
that's with the Afghans shooting them (obviously trained by us), tho. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make that mofo drink...

 

[Strangedays]

Re: AK acceptable accuracy, need help

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TCW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">AK = 3 to 4 MOA
Assumes:
1) Good ammo
2) Supported from bench
3) Rigid optical sight (irons have a short radius)
4) Competent shooter
5) Quality manufacture of weapon (appears that you have the best)

Good luck! </div></div>
Unless you have Red Jacket take care of it for you, then you will be able to blast unkown size targets at unknown distance and still claim to have an over a mile gun with a simple eye check for headspace. Good luck, and with all kidding aside the 3-4moa is a good rule but most lack even that.

 

[Beef82]

Re: AK acceptable accuracy, need help

Check your front sight, not sure about your brand, but with many makes its not unheard of for them to be canted slightly. Make sure neither sight is loose, and that the adjustments move as they should.

I've had numerous people tell me they can break pigeons at will at 300 with their AK. I've shot with these people, I never witnessed this, not even at 100, though at that distance they did hit more often. There are probably exceptions.

For what its designed for it is a fantastic firearm. If you want to shoot small targets or tiny groups, you're well advised to pick a different starting platform.

 

[HPLLC]

Re: AK acceptable accuracy, need help

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MD2Colo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Our shitty Afghan-government (mostly stamped Russian AKs) guns shoot average 1-2" groups at 25 meters. Wolf ammo, guns are in horrible condition tho. fwiw

-edit
that's with the Afghans shooting them (obviously trained by us), tho. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make that mofo drink... </div></div>

My impression was that Russian Ak's were some of the best.

The impression people get of Ak's is going to depend on the manufacturer. AK's are all over the map, just like 1911's from possibly 75 + manufacturers.

Some build great guns, others build awful crap guns.

 

[m4a3master]

Re: AK acceptable accuracy, need help

All shots on a bench with a sand bag at 25 yards.

1st five out the pipe (Tulammo FMJ)

2nd Group (Winchester Wite Box 123 gr FMJ)

3rd Group (Winchester Wite Box 123 gr FMJ)

4th Group (Barnaul FMJ 123)

 

[m4a3master]

Re: AK acceptable accuracy, need help

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Beef</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Check your front sight, not sure about your brand, but with many makes its not unheard of for them to be canted slightly. Make sure neither sight is loose, and that the adjustments move as they should.

I've had numerous people tell me they can break pigeons at will at 300 with their AK. I've shot with these people, I never witnessed this, not even at 100, though at that distance they did hit more often. There are probably exceptions.

For what its designed for it is a fantastic firearm. If you want to shoot small targets or tiny groups, you're well advised to pick a different starting platform. </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: strangedays</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Unless you have Red Jacket take care of it for you, then you will be able to blast unkown size targets at unknown distance and still claim to have an over a mile gun with a simple eye check for headspace. Good luck, and with all kidding aside the 3-4moa is a good rule but most lack even that. </div></div>
The rear sight does move from left to right (it has play in it). The sights are canted , the president of the range spotted that as soon as he seen the rifle.

On a side note: As stated before this is my second SGL21. The first one had to be sent back for repairs, and they sent a new rifle. So far my experience with Arsenal Inc. has been less than a good one. I am reluctant to cough up the shipping again, and deal with the "customer service" to have the same problem or worse. If they didn't get it right the first time, its not worth all the hassle for a second, and I wouldn't want another one anywhere near the first.

 

[ZLBubba]

Re: AK acceptable accuracy, need help

Does your AK have the picatinny rail on it? If not, I'd pick up that accessory and mount either an Aimpoint or a EoTech on it. The iron sights are not going to let you glean much accuracy out of the platform. Our air ops PSD in Afghanistan all carried AKs with the aftermarket scope mounts. They claimed it made a hell of a difference.

 

[BBJones13]

Re: AK acceptable accuracy, need help

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ZLBubba</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Does your AK have the picatinny rail on it? If not, I'd pick up that accessory and mount either an Aimpoint or a EoTech on it. The iron sights are not going to let you glean much accuracy out of the platform. Our air ops PSD in Afghanistan all carried AKs with the aftermarket scope mounts. They claimed it made a hell of a difference. </div></div>

Ultimak tube would be the best option. They do make alot of difference.

As some one mentioned previously AK's in 7.62x39 are really limited in range because of their trajectory. 5.45x39 can reach out there a bit though. Distance isn't everything though.

 

[marduk185]

Re: AK acceptable accuracy, need help

maybe it would help yall unfamiliar with the cartidge to just think of the ak as a semi auto, magazine fed, 30/30 winchester. useful if used in the correct application but nobody tries to make sniper rifles out of those, although it might be entertaining i to see red jackets gurus can take a swing at it?

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: AK acceptable accuracy, need help

Using a scoped bolt rifle of decent manufacture (Savage Scout 20.5" barrel), the best I can manage with ComBloc MilSpec ammo is about 2-3" at 100yd. PMC 123gr FMJ manages between 1" and 2", and initial handloads with 110gr V-Max match that and may do better with more development.

I think the cartridge has potential for some decent accuracy with the V-Max out to as far as 200yd, and prefer to think of it as a sorta 30PPC; but realizing that potential requires a good platform, good solidly mounted optics, and handloading.

If it responds well, I intend to dedicate the rifle as my Granddaughter's FV200 rifle. I have a 30BR barrel and a suitible Savage (the old .260 Rem Ghost Dancer) rifle to mount it onto for my own FV200 project.

Besides the 110 V-Max, I also have my eye on the new 135SMK, and I really think our FV200 .308 shooters who handload should be looking at it kinda closely too.

If you can shoot 40rd into 1MOA at 200yd, you can ace the FV200 target. Quite a few folks are finding this is not as easy as it 'ought to be'.

I had originally considered it unreasonable to handload for the cartridge when the ammo was available so cheaply.

For a ComBloc MilSpec Semi-Auto rifle design, I think your accuracy can be improved with better optics and mounts, but also think that the basic platform does not hold enough accuracy potential to be worthy of handloading.

The PMC Bronze FMJ stuff I used seems to have good performance. This employs a .308 diameter bullet in a USA made .308 bore. Foreign bores will probably respond better to the .311/.312 diameter foreign made ammo.

Greg

 

[sf88]

Re: AK acceptable accuracy, need help

The absolute best accuracy I've ever gotten with an AK was about 1.5 MOA with a polytech national match using hornady factory ammo. I was able to make hits on steel to about 600 yards. Every other AK I have shot has exhibited significantly worse accuracy than that.

 

[bigwheeler]

Re: AK acceptable accuracy, need help

A sight tool is about 10.00. Get one and push your front sight to the left/ (point of
impact). Other than that you are fine.

 

[Unsichtbar]

Re: AK acceptable accuracy, need help

Just to see what was possible out of and AK some people published an article about an AK they tricked out all the way custom barrel etc. It is no longer up on the net in with photos and too long to put in this thread. Link below

"That 100 yard, 5 shot target herewith measures .675". It’s not going to win the Super Shoot this year…but an AK-74???!)"

http://www.warriortalk.com/showthread.php?32760-Accurizing-the-Kalashnikov-Rifle

 

[decider]

Re: AK acceptable accuracy, need help

I'm back... re-wrote the code (all the 0s and 1s) for the web blocker... suck it web sense...

Oh and by the way.... I hope that AK accuracy is never improved by ammunition type improvements, modifications, and/or any off-the-shelf methods... as there are more than 1 million AKs on the "streets" around the world and most of them in the enemies' hands... just sayin'

 

[sf88]

Re: AK acceptable accuracy, need help

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Decider</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm back... re-wrote the code (all the 0s and 1s) for the web blocker... suck it web sense...

Oh and by the way.... I hope that AK accuracy is never improved by ammunition type improvements, modifications, and/or any off-the-shelf methods... as there are more than 1 million AKs on the "streets" around the world and most of them in the enemies' hands... just sayin' </div></div>

Not sure that I follow, better ammo will almost always have a positive impact on any weapon's performance. There are also a lot more than 1 million AK's around the world, however I have yet to see one on the streets except in GTA

 

[Afghanvet09]

Re: AK acceptable accuracy, need help

great topic - i grabbed one of my AK's (romanian) set the bags up and took my time with some of the 123 gr brown bear. 5 shot groups had ES that averaged about 7 inches @ 100 yards - so agree with the paper plater poster.

members on this site are in love with Arsenal - just ask buy recs and see, but all I hear from true blue AK nuts on their boards is the problems like you said (e.g., canted sights).

I've heard from many chinese build the best and toughest AK's (type 56). I'd like somebody to post on what their's will honestly do,and not lie from bench and bags.

Finally I do think a side rail and red dot might improve as AK sights stink. Sight alignment probably a contributing factor among many others (trigger, recoil, poor ammo quality, etc..) in accuracy issues

 

[m4a3master]

Re: AK acceptable accuracy, need help

New Day New Target!!! I took the advice above. I used sand bags took my time. I also had a buddy lend me a front sight tool, and pushed it over to the left as suggested above. and here are the results.

 

[m4a3master]

Re: AK acceptable accuracy, need help

btw, thank you all for the advice.

 

[Grump]

Re: AK acceptable accuracy, need help

Is a Valmet in .223 an AK???

My Dad's does 2-3 MOA with Lake City off the bags with regularity. First 10 rounds after he bought it used (with an Aimpoint on the receiver cover) were 2.1 inches. I had the honors.

The reloads open up to 4 MOA if the 55-gr FMJBTs are notsogreat. Otherwise, mostly 3 MOA.

Next, I'm testing 52-gr HPBT Match bullets.

 

[marduk185]

Re: AK acceptable accuracy, need help

also of possibel interest, ive noted the best accuracy to date was actually out of a wasr10 despite the bad rep those get generally.