Alternatives to chrome lining?

[Sylvan-Forge]

What do you think makes a good barrel lining?

 

[former naval person]

Re: Alternatives to chrome lining?

What do you want to do with it? Accuracy? Long wear under full auto fire?

 

[Sylvan-Forge]

Re: Alternatives to chrome lining?

Accuracy 1st, long-wear 2nd.

 

[Longshot38]

Re: Alternatives to chrome lining?

Nitride. It makes a good coating all the way around and coats the bore also. Makes cleaning easy without sacrificing accuracy.

 

[Sylvan-Forge]

Re: Alternatives to chrome lining?

Any particular Nitride? Boron?

 

[Sylvan-Forge]

Re: Alternatives to chrome lining?

Thank you, Longshot38, I'll look into nitride coatings.

 

[BOLTRIPPER]

Re: Alternatives to chrome lining?

oh good god........




http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthre...105#Post1061105

 

[USMCj]

Re: Alternatives to chrome lining?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BOLTRIPPER</div><div class="ubbcode-body">oh good god........




http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthre...105#Post1061105

</div></div>

LMFAO

 

[Sylvan-Forge]

Re: Alternatives to chrome lining?

Hey! Chrome gives away your position, don't ya know!?
Get with the program!

 

[Chui]

Re: Alternatives to chrome lining?

Nitride COATINGS would not make a good barrel lining as you could not get the plasma to consistently reach all the way down the barrel; it's pretty much line of sight. I've been to IONBOND in Sterling Heights, MI and have observed the machines coating parts. It's impressive.

Ferritic Nitrocarburization, however, can and is used on some barrels. Ferritic Nitrocarburization processes have several names including "Melonite", "Tuftride" and "Tenifer". The surface conversion layer is harder and more resistant to wear than hard chrome and if done properly there is no changes in geometry. So, theory aside who employs this? Sigarms and one very high end imported bolt gun manufacturer that is well thought of here. I have information that would indicate others also have been utilizing this process as well.

 

[MidwestPX]

Re: Alternatives to chrome lining?

It would be really neat if someone would start HVOFing barrels. High Velocity Oxy-Fuel...the coating is significantly harder than chrome so it's more wear-resistant but unlike chrome, it requires significant grinding and polishing to achieve the same surface finish.

 

[Sylvan-Forge]

Re: Alternatives to chrome lining?

Very interesting, Chui, thanks for that.

 

[Sylvan-Forge]

Re: Alternatives to chrome lining?

HVOF sounds neat, .. I'll check it out. Thanks THT.


Chui, I forgot to ask, do you know of anyone offering Ferritic Nitrocarburization single-job/retail?

 

[BOLTRIPPER]

Re: Alternatives to chrome lining?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sylvan-Forge</div><div class="ubbcode-body">HVOF sounds neat, .. I'll check it out. Thanks THT.


Chui, I forgot to ask, do you know of anyone offering Ferritic Nitrocarburization single-job/retail?</div></div>


this process is very heat intensive and requires a LARGE capital investment as the soak vessel tend to be very large....operations require a gantry to insert and remove the subject material....which is typically done in batches....savvy a aircraft or areo-space manufacture or re-builder that got the gear and then start begging.....results may not be what you think.

 

[Scottmilk9]

Re: Alternatives to chrome lining?

Whats wrong with just plain ol stainless steel barrels?

I've got 2 18" AR's that have 20K plus rounds through them and still getting great accuracy.

 

[Chui]

Re: Alternatives to chrome lining?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BOLTRIPPER</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sylvan-Forge</div><div class="ubbcode-body">HVOF sounds neat, .. I'll check it out. Thanks THT.


Chui, I forgot to ask, do you know of anyone offering Ferritic Nitrocarburization single-job/retail?</div></div>


this process is very heat intensive and requires a LARGE capital investment as the soak vessel tend to be very large....operations require a gantry to insert and remove the subject material....which is typically done in batches....savvy a aircraft or areo-space manufacture or re-builder that got the gear and then start begging.....results may not be what you think. </div></div>

Think pistolmakers Glock, H&K, Smith & Wesson, et als. Also consider Sig, presumably H&K G Series barrels (from recent conversations with a contact I have withih H&K USA) and several others, one well thought of here and elsewhere. I know the results are what I suspect them to be: hard, durable surface conversion process with no deformation. However, rechambering could be more difficult to do - as told to me by none less than George Gardner and later by Mike Rock. I will search my list of services and post some companies that perform Melonite treatment for customers. I've not used them and I've only yet heard of/seen H&K P7s and 1911s done thus far.

 

[Chui]

Re: Alternatives to chrome lining?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sylvan-Forge</div><div class="ubbcode-body">HVOF sounds neat, .. I'll check it out. Thanks THT.


Chui, I forgot to ask, do you know of anyone offering Ferritic Nitrocarburization single-job/retail? </div></div>

This is what I have:

<span style="font-weight: bold">Burlington Engineering, Inc. </span>
220 W. Grove Avenue
Orange, California 92865-3204
Phone: (714) 921-4045
Fax: (714) 921-4029
Web Address: http://burlingtoneng.com/
E-mail: [email protected]
Contact: Dave Corbell
“Melonite” (Ferritic Nitrocarburization processing)

<span style="font-weight: bold">Commercial Steel Treating Corp. </span>
31440 Stephenson Highway
Madison Heights, Michigan 48071
Phone: (248) 588-3300
Fax: (248) 588-3534
Website: http://www.commercialsteel.com
Potential Nitrocarburization source

<span style="font-weight: bold">Dynamic Metal Treating, Inc. </span>
7784 Ronda Drive
Canton, Michigan 48187
Phone: (734) 459-8022 and 800-806-6012
Fax: (734) 459-7863
Website: http://www.dynablue.com
Potential nitrocarburization source

<span style="font-weight: bold">Eltro Services, Inc. </span>
3570 Thomas Road
Oxford, Michigan 48371
Phone: (248) 628-9790
Fax: (248) 628-9445
Website: http://www.eltroservices.com
Potential nitrocarburization source

<span style="font-weight: bold">Flame Metals Processing</span>
7317-T West Lake Street
Minneapolis, Minnesota 55426
Phone: (612) 929-7815
Toll Free: (800) 497-8462
Fax: 612-925-0572
Ferritic Nitro-Carburizing (Salt Bath Nitriding)

<span style="font-weight: bold">The Woodworth Group</span>
20941 East Street
Southfield, Michigan 48034
Phone: (248) 353-4229 and 888-412-2752
Fax: (248) 353-8883
Website: http://www.woodworthheattreating.com
Potential nitrocarburization source

Both Burlington and Flames perform ferritic nitrocarburization processes for the firearm industry. The others are located in Southeast Michigan - where I reside. There are lots of good process engineering services there - until NAFTA/GATT/WTO/CAFTA/FTAA/NAU/SPP drove the dollar to nothing and putting a lot of them into distress, mergers and bankruptcy.

I've not had close contact with the companies in SE Michigan due to job change and other disruptions in the economy. I have a background in Mech Engr with some experience with Materials and Processes as a hobby. I'm pursuing this process for match barrels and have been a little distracted at the moment but I will pursue it and I can report the results (or provide links) to the discussion at www.pistolsmith.com under "Finishes".

 

[Chui]

Re: Alternatives to chrome lining?

Scottmilk9, "nothing" is wrong, <span style="font-style: italic">per se</span>, with good stainless steel like 17-4. I'm simply looking for something that may be better, that's all.

 

[Sylvan-Forge]

Re: Alternatives to chrome lining?

Hi, BOLTRIPPER.
HVOF does sound pretty intense. It wouldn't do to have the barrel warped!

I wonder that F. Nitrocarbing can be done at lower temps..

Mayhap Ferratic Nitriding, is a similiar process? Offered here:
http://losokcustomarms.com/pages/finishes.php

 

[Sylvan-Forge]

Re: Alternatives to chrome lining?

Scottmilk9, I'd say there is nothing wrong with SS, just that I'm not keen on it.

Plus I'm having an illogically hard time shaking the myth (is it?) that SS barrels can shatter in sub-zero temps <shrug>.

 

[Sylvan-Forge]

Re: Alternatives to chrome lining?

Chui, many thanks for posting all that.

Any thoughts on the Ferratic Nitride process by Losok Custom Arms? http://losokcustomarms.com/pages/finishes.php

 

[buffybuster]

Re: Alternatives to chrome lining?

The vast majority of barrel makers use Barrel Grade 416R stainless steel because it machines very well. With the thicker wall barrels found in tactical/target barrels, splitting is not an issue. However, in very thin contour barrels with minimum wall thickness and a combination of high round count and subzero temps could theoretically lead to barrel splitting along the sulfur stringers.

PH17-4 stainless steel is materially superior but does not machine as well and more difficult to achieve the surface finish. As a result not as popular in barrel making.

 

[Chui]

Re: Alternatives to chrome lining?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sylvan-Forge</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Chui, many thanks for posting all that.

Any thoughts on the Ferratic Nitride process by Losok Custom Arms? http://losokcustomarms.com/pages/finishes.php

</div></div>

"Ferratic Nitride [actually, Ferritic Nitrocarburization]: This is the most advanced firearms finish we offer. Nitride offers exceptional wear resistance, excellent corrosion resistance and a uniform black color. This finish treats both the inside and outside of all parts of the rifle made of ferrous metal. Nitride will offer the benefits of a chrome lined bore without the disadvantages. As this finish is not a plating, but a heat treatment process, it actually changes the surface of the steel and preserves the finish characteristics (lapped finish) of the bore and can not flake off. Nitride will result in a surface hardness of nearly 70 Rockwell C scale, meaning that you can run a file across it and it will not scratch. Nitride is self-lubricating, eliminating the need to add oil to your firearm. This finish can be top-coated (with some surface prep) with DuraCoat or Film Transfer, allowing a variety of colors."

Sounds like a "Melonite" process and I agree with the claims. The question now becomes "how controlled is the process and scientific testing of the coating - particularly the interior of the barrel. The testing may sound difficult but it really isn't (if one has the necessary equipment or access to it and someone who knows metallurgy). I'll phone all of the leads provided and report back soon.

I'd opt for Tungsten Diamond Like Carbon (W DLC on top of the "Melonited" parts as provided by IonBond.

 

[lrs50bmg]

Re: Alternatives to chrome lining?

We Melonited 50 cal barrels for several years when we were shooting 12L14 Leadloy steel bullets in FCSA competition. The process may have been improved upon, but the surface was not real smooth after the treatment. It smoothed out after shooting a while. My understanding also is that it can only be done on CrMo barrels, not stainless. In 15 years I'm sure the technology has improved.

 

[Chui]

Re: Alternatives to chrome lining?

Smith & Wesson "through hardens" their barrels using Melonite on the S&W M&P pistols. There will be a polishing component of the process, for sure.

 

[scotharr]

Re: Alternatives to chrome lining?

These guys look interesting: http://www.superiorbarrels.com/

They have a "hard blue" process. Sounds interesting but have no experience with them.

Ar15 thread: http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=124&t=375596

 

[Metalhead0483]

Re: Alternatives to chrome lining?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sylvan-Forge</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Plus I'm having an illogically hard time shaking the myth (is it?) that SS barrels can shatter in sub-zero temps <shrug>.

</div></div>

Ummmmm. What? Where the hell did you get that from?

I've been shooting SS barrels in <very> sub-zero temps for years...

 

[Frank]

Re: Alternatives to chrome lining?

The SS barrels splitting is mentioned at the bottom of the Calibers and Pricing page on Kreigers website.

 

[Metalhead0483]

Re: Alternatives to chrome lining?

Huh, never had a problem...

 

[SpotcheckBilly]

Re: Alternatives to chrome lining?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Metalhead0483</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Huh, never had a problem...</div></div>

Most folks never do!

But it's a fact, not a myth, and there's always a possibility that someone, somewhere, will run into it. Kreiger is just being diligent in informing his customers that the possibility exists.

 

[MWDG3]

Re: Alternatives to chrome lining?

Talk to Mike Wooldridge at MMI-Trutec Paragould, AR Ph# 870-236-6920. They require the bolt and receiver dissassembled. I haven't put my Howa on paper yet since treatment, but it turned out nice.
http://mminitriding.com/ahoutus.htm

http://www.coalcreekarmory.com/custom_finishing.html

 

[BOLTRIPPER]

Re: Alternatives to chrome lining?

ok....i still don't see anyone doing Barrels with consistent results......i'm talking the INSIDE of the barrels,,,,the bore, you know the inside thingie that looks like a sewer pipe that swirls to the other end of the barrel......!!!!!

the hot gas method don't go deep

and the salt method (plasma) is hard to apply in small orifices

what up !

 

[Chui]

Re: Alternatives to chrome lining?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MWDG3</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Talk to Mike Wooldridge at MMI-Trutec Paragould, AR Ph# 870-236-6920. They require the bolt and receiver dissassembled. I haven't put my Howa on paper yet since treatment, but it turned out nice.
http://mminitriding.com/ahoutus.htm

http://www.coalcreekarmory.com/custom_finishing.html </div></div>

Thanks for the heads up! I'll speak with them, too.

 

[Chui]

Re: Alternatives to chrome lining?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BOLTRIPPER</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ok....i still don't see anyone doing Barrels with consistent results......i'm talking the INSIDE of the barrels,,,,the bore, you know the inside thingie that looks like a sewer pipe that swirls to the other end of the barrel......!!!!!

the hot gas method don't go deep

and the salt method (plasma) is hard to apply in small orifices

what up ! </div></div>

Glock, H&K and S&W seem to do okay on their pistol barrels. Sig has someone (or they do it inhouse) on their 556 rifle as well. So while it may be "more difficult" it's not, apparently, impossible.

 

[hohlspitz]

Re: Alternatives to chrome lining?

For the last five years, Joel Kendrick, a former IBS 600-yard Shooter of the Year, has been working on a MELONITE® nitrocarburizing process for surface-hardening barrels and other gun parts.

This process is being offered by HEF:

H.E.F. USA
2015 Progress Drive
Springfield, Ohio 45505

Or more information is available from Joel Kendrick:

joelkndrck [at] aol.com

Instructions for Melonite® treatment of gun barrels & bolt bodies
Delivery:
2-4 weeks from receipt of items
Price / Item:
Barrel; Melonite® QPQTM…………....$87.00 + S&H
Bolt body; Melonite® QPQTM………..$42.00 + S&H
Barrel; Melonite®……………………$67.00 + S&H
Bolt body; Melonite®………………..$22.00 + S&H

Price / Order:
$200.00 minimum, plus shipping, for your first order. (i.e., $200 minimum
will be charged even if total of items is less than $200. Otherwise,
price/item applies). Subsequent orders will be charged at the normal rate of
$600.00 minimum

http://www.accurateshooter.net/Adverts/meloniteorderform.pdf

http://www.hefusa.net/index.htm

 

[Chui]

Re: Alternatives to chrome lining?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hohlspitz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For the last five years, Joel Kendrick, a former IBS 600-yard Shooter of the Year, has been working on a MELONITE® nitrocarburizing process for surface-hardening barrels and other gun parts.

This process is being offered by HEF:

H.E.F. USA
2015 Progress Drive
Springfield, Ohio 45505

Or more information is available from Joel Kendrick:

joelkndrck [at] aol.com

Instructions for Melonite® treatment of gun barrels & bolt bodies
Delivery:
2-4 weeks from receipt of items
Price / Item:
Barrel; Melonite® QPQTM…………....$87.00 + S&H
Bolt body; Melonite® QPQTM………..$42.00 + S&H
Barrel; Melonite®……………………$67.00 + S&H
Bolt body; Melonite®………………..$22.00 + S&H

Price / Order:
$200.00 minimum, plus shipping, for your first order. (i.e., $200 minimum
will be charged even if total of items is less than $200. Otherwise,
price/item applies). Subsequent orders will be charged at the normal rate of
$600.00 minimum

http://www.accurateshooter.net/Adverts/meloniteorderform.pdf

http://www.hefusa.net/index.htm

</div></div>

Thanks for that information. I'll contact them as well.

 

[U2AV8R]

Re: Alternatives to chrome lining?

Chui or anyone else,

Any update on barrel coating with either melonite or nitriding? Looking at having a .50 BMG and a .338 LM barrel done. I see exterior surface coating availability, but I'm looking for some first hand experience with someone who has had their bore coated with one of these processes.

U2AV8R

 

[Chui]

Re: Alternatives to chrome lining?

U2AV8R, I know of no one who has personally had the treatment applied to a target rifle. Mike Rock at Rock Creek Barrels and George Gardner of G.A. Precision should be contacted as I spoke with both about the process. The process DOES work and it's not uncommon with European manufacturers. Whether or not the process is well-developed and the execution flawless should be the question today. I've seen, handled and shot the results with 1911 pistols and they seemed fine. But that is not necessarily relevant to your inquiry.

If you do not mind, could you report any feedback here?

 

[U2AV8R]

Re: Alternatives to chrome lining?

Will do.