Am I Expecting too Much from my Modified Remington 700?

[blackriflecollector]

I've been a long time lurker here and finally decided too register so I can ask for some advice.

For background, I've built around 10 AR-15s, 7 FALs, 5 AKs, and my latest project, a Remington 700 in .308. This gun started life as a basic 700 in 7mm-308. It was a BDL in synthetic stock. I decided I wanted an accurate .308 and being someone who loves a good project, I decided to do the conversion myself. I bought a 26" Shilen 5.5 contour stainless barrel from Brownells as well as a Manson .308 match finish reamer and a Wheeler action wrench. I already had the Brownells barrel vise. I didn't really want a 26" barrel, so I pulled out my hacksaw and chopped 4" off of the brand new Shilen Barrel. I squared up the cut end on my belt sander and used a Brownells barrel crowning tool to cut an 11 degree crown. I installed the barrel and cut the chamber with the finish reamer. Bolt closes snug on a 1.631 HS gage. I blasted the barrel and finished it in Gunkote satin black. The rifle has a HS Precision stock, Jewell BR trigger, Leupy MK 4 base, Badger rings, and a SS 5-20 scope. Everything is torqued to recommended values using a Wheeler wrench. No contact between barrel and stock.

Took it to the range today and it ran flawlessly, but I was expecting better accuracy. I ran several of my reloads through it that have performed well in other guns. Various combinations of 168 and 175 gr SMKs, 168 gr Noslers, and 208 gr AMAX. Mostly Winchester, Federal, and LC brass with Wolf primers and 4895, 3031, BM, TAC, and Varget. The best 2 groups I got at 100 yds are in the picture below (FGMM 175 gr and 168 gr Noslers over 43.5 gr of TAC). FGMM group was 5 shots at .896 and the Noslers were 4 shots at .750. I had lots of 3 round groups under .5 MOA, but none when shooting 4 or 5 rounds.

So, if it were you, would you be satisfied with the results? Or, should I give up and send it off to a Smith for some tuning? Is this contour (Sendero/Varmint) capable of this kind of accuracy, or should I have gone with something heavier? Anything else you would try like bedding, etc.? I do plan to work up some new loads and give it another go, but I'm not sure I'll get much better. Thanks for any advice on getting this gun down to the .5 MOA range.

 

[blackriflecollector]

Bump for some advice

 

[Temp9]

Honestly, a couple hand-picked groups isn't enough to tell the accuracy. I'd like to see at least 5 5-shot groups shot back to back. That said, if your best groups are .75MOA+, your average 5 shot group would probably be greater than 1MOA, which would not be satisfactory for me, especially with an aftermarket barrel. Bedding might help, might not.

Contour should not be an issue. 5.5 is more than enough for a precision rifle.

What is the twist rate of the barrel?

I have to ask, what's your experience shooting precision rifle?

FYI: For some reason, I couldn't view your thread yesterday. When I clicked on it, it brought me to a blank screen. That might have something to do with why you haven't gotten any responses.

 

[Hasgun Willtravel]

I decided I wanted an accurate .308 ......I didn't really want a 26" barrel, so I pulled out my hacksaw and chopped 4" off ......I squared up the cut end on my belt sander

Your getting four times the accuracy I would expect.

 

[scudzuki]

I'm a little confused.
Your story lacks continuity, for instance...
you hacksawed and beltsanded the barrel to length and crowned it with some tool I'm unfamiliar with, then chambered and installed the barrel.
How did you attach the barrel to the receiver?
Did you weld it on?
If you turned down the breech and single point chased threads in a lathe then what the hell are you doing belt sanding the muzzle?

Jes sayin' is all...

Joe

 

[TimK]

I'm surprised it shoots that well. I'm not bashing you or your skill, I just know what my smith goes through to make me an accurate rifle. I'd not be satisfied at all with those results, and I'd take it to a smith with a lathe and a reputation for building accurate rifles.

The earlier poster's question is also valid. Do you know how to shoot 1/4" groups (or whatever size group you consider acceptable) one after the other?

 

[blackriflecollector]

What is the twist rate of the barrel?

1 in 10

I have to ask, what's your experience shooting precision rifle?

I'd say I'm an advanced novice with precision rifles, but very experienced with other platforms. I've got an older Remington 700 VSSF in .223 that I can shoot 5 round, .5 MOA groups with handloads consistently.

FYI: For some reason, I couldn't view your thread yesterday. When I clicked on it, it brought me to a blank screen. That might have something to do with why you haven't gotten any responses.

Yeah, not sure what was up with that.

Thanks for the response.

 

[walley2960]

Pre threaded and short chambered would be my guess.

 

[ridenrunwv]

Just shot FGMM ammo first time through my factory AAC-SD with less than 100 rounds down the tube and was holding less than .75 inch groups so you should be able to get better.

 

[RanchhandTCR]

Just to throw in my two cents how many rounds down the tube did you send out before you tested for accuracy. When it comes to prescision rifles you need to let the copper fill any pores in the barrel and this will make a smooth exit for the bullet in flight. it takes around 50-100 rounds. Also the newer remmys have incosisitant recoil lugs, and generally the sguare the face of the action at least mine does. It not like an AR-15 where you can just slap a barrel onto a rifle and expect good accuracy these are mass produced rifles and they are far from perfect in the threads and face of the action. Also on a second note which I doubt is you case my smith told me the last 4 or five shiliens he has done he told me that the contour was crooked so to thread it was a PITA. But like said above are you skilled enough to shoot 1/4 gorups??

 

[blackriflecollector]

I'm a little confused.
Your story lacks continuity, for instance...
you hacksawed and beltsanded the barrel to length and crowned it with some tool I'm unfamiliar with, then chambered and installed the barrel.
How did you attach the barrel to the receiver?
Did you weld it on?
If you turned down the breech and single point chased threads in a lathe then what the hell are you doing belt sanding the muzzle?

Jes sayin' is all...

Joe

Guess I skipped some steps that may not be obvious to those not familiar with short chambered barrels. I shortened the barrel, crowned it with a Brownells hand tool designed for the job, screwed the barrel into the action, torqued it on with the action wrench, used the finish reamer to cut the remainder of the chamber until it closed on the go gauge.

I may have made it sound like I haphazardly hacked off the barrel and slapped it on. I have shortened, crowned and installed several FAL barrels that have performed well. I understand most folks here probably take it a little more seriously . . .

 

[seanh]

always like the redneck gunsmith stories...good one. Keep up the accurizing work and you'll soon be on your way to a full fledged master redneck gunsmith.

Hacksaw? You the man...all I had for mine was a wire saw and a flat bastard file, Oh, and I did use some 150grit sandpaper to finish the muzzle.

Given the work you did, I'd say it's good enough to kill a deer. But if you want more accuracy, I'd get to doing some ladder testing then proper load development. If that doesn't work, I'd set the barrel back one turn, order a proper reamer set, turn the muzzle on a lathe...knocking off about 1/8" and give it a good target crown.

 

[blackriflecollector]

Just to throw in my two cents how many rounds down the tube did you send out before you tested for accuracy.

But like said above are you skilled enough to shoot 1/4 gorups??

I only shot around 20 rounds before shooting for groups.

I know I can shoot sub .5 MOA groups with my 700 VSSF in .223. Not sure about .25 MOA . . .

 

[walley2960]

Bottom line if unsatisfactory to you(you routinely shoot better). Do a proper load workup before giving up on it.

 

[JGorski]

So, if it were you, would you be satisfied with the results? Or, should I give up and send it off to a Smith for some tuning? Is this contour (Sendero/Varmint) capable of this kind of accuracy, or should I have gone with something heavier? Anything else you would try like bedding, etc.? I do plan to work up some new loads and give it another go, but I'm not sure I'll get much better. Thanks for any advice on getting this gun down to the .5 MOA range. QUOTE

After seeing what my REM SPSS does at the range Id not be satisfied with your results, Id get a different barrel from someone other than Shilen or maybe find a "Smith" that has a newer factory remington takeoff barrel, ok, maybe Im kidding on that note, and have a good Smith do the rebarrel job, a factory Rem 308 shoots pretty good in my book, mine is a solid .5moa out to 300yds.

 

[scudzuki]

I cut the 24" sporter barrel that came on my 700 SPS down to 20" with a target crown and it shot 5 shot groups right at 1" with a best of .67" once in a while, if I gave it time to cool down.

I would expect the barrel you installed to do a bit better than that.

Never heard of a short chambered barrel but that would be right up my alley since (as I just explained in another thread) my 1966 Colchester lathe was made for the UK market so it has a metric lead screw, and the change gears are heinously expensive new ($1200/ea!) and unavailable on the used market. As such I can't chase imperial threads.

I did get a special deal on a Herters inserted cutoff tool, though, with 20 C5 carbide inserts for under $100, it will lop off a barrel in less than 10 seconds.
Hacksawing a 1" barrel off sounds too much like work to me!

Personally I can't imagine paying someone to work on my firearms.

Joe

 

[scudzuki]

So, if it were you, would you be satisfied with the results? Or, should I give up and send it off to a Smith for some tuning? Is this contour (Sendero/Varmint) capable of this kind of accuracy, or should I have gone with something heavier? Anything else you would try like bedding, etc.? I do plan to work up some new loads and give it another go, but I'm not sure I'll get much better. Thanks for any advice on getting this gun down to the .5 MOA range. QUOTE

After seeing what my REM SPSS does at the range Id not be satisfied with your results, Id get a different barrel from someone other than Shilen or maybe find a "Smith" that has a newer factory remington takeoff barrel, ok, maybe Im kidding on that note, and have a good Smith do the rebarrel job, a factory Rem 308 shoots pretty good in my book, mine is a solid .5moa out to 300yds.

I'm waiting on an AAC-SD and hoping it will be a great shooter like some the Remmies are right out of the box.

Joe

 

[blackriflecollector]

I did get a special deal on a Herters inserted cutoff tool, though, with 20 C5 carbide inserts for under $100, it will lop off a barrel in less than 10 seconds.
Hacksawing a 1" barrel off sounds too much like work to me!Joe

I did work up a good sweat getting through that barrel. For my FALs, I used my Harbor Freight mini lathe to cut and crown the barrel as the FAL profile will fit through the headstock. Not so much with the heavier profile stuff. Yes, I own both a HF mini lathe and mill and like to do 95% of the work on my guns. I admit it--I'm a practicing member of the WECSOG (Wile E. Coyote School of Gunsmithing).

 

[scudzuki]

I did work up a good sweat getting through that barrel. For my FALs, I used my Harbor Freight mini lathe to cut and crown the barrel as the FAL profile will fit through the headstock. Not so much with the heavier profile stuff. Yes, I own both a HF mini lathe and mill and like to do 95% of the work on my guns. I admit it--I'm a practicing member of the WECSOG (Wile E. Coyote School of Gunsmithing).

Oh you will love my homage/roll mark on my 80% lowers then...

To be fair, I have a Mid 90s Cincinnati Vertical Machining Center in my shop, so this kind of stuff is relatively easy.

Joe

 

[jasper1573]

Instead of the powders you have used, you might consider Reloader 15 or IMR 4064. I shoot both and both will deliver excellent performance in a 308. I have never used TAC before. Something else you might wish to consider is cartridge overall length. If you are shooting a COAL of 2.800 inches, try easing it out a few thousandths to maybe 2.805 or 2.810. I found this to improve accuracy in one of my Rem 700s.

As far as bullets go, I think the 175 grn SMK is a great bullet. The 168s shoot good as well, but I believe that with your 1:10 twist barrel, you would be better off with the 175s...don't see any need to go heavier even for longer distance shooting.

As far as your gunsmithing, you are braver than me, but God bless you for trying. I don't have the fortitude (yet) to take a new match barrel and cut the end off with a hack saw, though I have seen it done with a saws-all.

Hang in there and keep trying to hone the rifle down with different loads. Since it's a new barrel, give it a good cleaning before shooting it again, then put 20 or so rounds through it to dirty it up. Might shoot better after a couple of iterations of cleaning and shooting...maybe not, but worth a try.

FWIW, all three of my Rem 700s were .5 MOA out of the box...bought them in the last few years, so yours should be able to do the same or better with the match barrel and all.

 

[blackriflecollector]

Oh you will love my homage/roll mark on my 80% lowers then...

Very nice!

 

[scudzuki]

Very nice!

Meep Meep!

Joe

 

[oldfatguy]

Bottom line if unsatisfactory to you(you routinely shoot better). Do a proper load workup before giving up on it.

Yup, an OCW work up will probably pay off. Loads that shoot well in one rifle are not automatically going to shoot well in another. Then there is FGMM.

OFG

 

[blackriflecollector]

Instead of the powders you have used, you might consider Reloader 15 or IMR 4064. I shoot both and both will deliver excellent performance in a 308. I have never used TAC before. Something else you might wish to consider is cartridge overall length. If you are shooting a COAL of 2.800 inches, try easing it out a few thousandths to maybe 2.805 or 2.810. I found this to improve accuracy in one of my Rem 700s.FWIW, all three of my Rem 700s were .5 MOA out of the box...bought them in the last few years, so yours should be able to do the same or better with the match barrel and all.

Thanks for the advice. I'll definitely try some more powders and work on my OAL.

The donor gun with the sporter barrel in 7mm-08 was a 1.25 inch rifle. I blame much of that however on the cheap stock and factory barrel.

 

[blackriflecollector]

Here's the crown--not too bad for a hack job in my opinion . . .

 

[Kevin1]

My Savage 10 with just the B&C stock upprade shoots better than this (with hand loads she likes).
Did you shoot it before cutting the barrel?

 

[seanh]

Cut looks straight but it could be off as much as .003"-.005"...that would screw up shots. What are you using to determine that your crown is square to the bore? The inner bevel doesn't look concentric to the bore...could be the lighting/blurred image.

before starting to work up a load, consider getting a good crown.

 

[blackriflecollector]

Cut looks straight but it could be off as much as .003"-.005"...that would screw up shots. What are you using to determine that your crown is square to the bore? The inner bevel doesn't look concentric to the bore...could be the lighting/blurred image.

before starting to work up a load, consider getting a good crown.

I have a brass crown lapping tool that I may give a try with some abrasive. I would have thought that if there were a problem with the crown, it would have impacted accuracy more significantly?

All of the loads I tried were loaded to 2.80" OAL. Going to try and coat some bullets with Dykem to see how far I am off the lands and adjust.

 

[ssg08]

I can get at least those groups easily out of a stock Rem 700P out to 200 yards all day long.
I probably wouldn't be that much satisfied. It seems you aren't.

 

[blackriflecollector]

I finally got out to shoot some of my reloads today and thought I'd post an update. Only things I did to the rifle were polish the crown with a brass lapping tool with some silicon carbide abrasive and adjust the torque on the action screws (went from 65 in lbs on both to 45 in lbs front and 25 rear).

For the loads, I used some of the same bullets I had and seated them a little longer than previous loads. I also left the Lead Sled at home and shot off of bags.

I was very happy with my results. I went through 9 different loads. All groups are 5 shots at 100 yds. All of them were under an inch, and the 3 below are the best of the 9. The ones loaded to 2.875 are too long to cycle from the magazine, but the other 2 are good. Too many variables to attribute the improvement to one thing, but I think it's a keeper.

 

[dbowhunter]

I've enjoyed following this...it may be a hack job in most of everyones' opinions, but sometimes reinventing the wheel us the best way to learn.

Good luck dialing it down some more.

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2

 

[exx1976]

I enjoyed the read. I'm not sure if your goal was a "DIY" rifle, or if you simply did it yourself to save money in the hopes of getting better accuracy than a factory rifle...

I have a factory 700 AAC-SD action and barrel with a Jewell trigger in an AICS stock, and was at the range doing load development Saturday. I put 9 5-round groups .2gr apart downrange, and the worst of them was .75 MOA. The one I ended up deciding on could be completely covered by a nickle. With the custom parts you chose, I would be dissatisfied with the results.

If it were my rifle, I would be pleased that it tightened up with custom loads (one would expect, right?), but I would definitely get it to a smith for a target crown. Shouldn't cost you much, and should help to tighten things up even more.

 

[blackriflecollector]

I enjoyed the read. I'm not sure if your goal was a "DIY" rifle, or if you simply did it yourself to save money in the hopes of getting better accuracy than a factory rifle...

Primary goal was to build an acceptably accurate rifle (in my own definition, that equates to consistent .5 MOA or better for 5 shot groups). The reason for the DiY aspect was primarily because I enjoy working on firearms and like to tackle a project in the interest of learning. I've also built a 1911 from the ground up using a slide/frame combo and that project definitely didn't save me any money.

I question whether having a gunsmith put my barrel into a lathe to recut the crown would produce a significant improvement at this point. I think the remaining accuracy would need to come from receiver/bolt truing, bedding, installing a better custom chambered/threaded barrel, etc.

Anyhow, I've achieved acceptable accuracy for my purposes and learned a bit along the way.

 

[billmy67]

That is pretty decent accuracy for not having the crown precisely cut. I always look at it this way...the crown is the last thing the bullet touches before it leaves the barrel. Any imperfections there are going to hinder the accuracy for a rifle. There are exceptions to every rule....but when I get a rifle that won't shoot...first thing I check is the bedding...if the barrel is free floated the second thing I check is the crown. Blue printed actions are nice and well cut chambers are important...but the crown is the last thing the bullet touches on the way out.

 

[RTK]

After reading this I am not so sure the barrel crown is as important as all say...............

The Over-Rated Crown

 

[Bloody_Tailgate]

You should have stated that you were shooting off of a lead sled in your first post. I'm almost positive (from my experience) that it's impossible to shoot under .75-1" groups off of them. Now that you know you have a good load, and the rifle is shooting well, take the lead sled back out and report how it groups. I'd put a paycheck on it that your groups open back up.

 

[Tahoe333]

After reading this I am not so sure the barrel crown is as important as all say...............

The Over-Rated Crown

The "Over Rated" crown article was an EXCELLENT read! Thank you for posting it.

 

[RTK]

You are welcome. I know the crown is important, but may be not to the extent that I was always told. I manly hunt and have always been really careful and particular about the crown, probably still will but now I have different evidence to think about.

 

[jbjh]

I like your chuztpah! Most people are afraid of metal work.
Did you square/true the front of the action when you had the barrel off?

 

[blackriflecollector]

After reading this I am not so sure the barrel crown is as important as all say...............

The Over-Rated Crown

Thanks for the link. That's an interesting read.

 

[blackriflecollector]

You should have stated that you were shooting off of a lead sled in your first post.

I would have thought the Lead Sled would have provided more consistency, but maybe not. I'll give it a go next time I'm out at the range.

 

[blackriflecollector]

Did you square/true the front of the action when you had the barrel off?

No squaring/trueing. Only thing I did was take out the machining marks on the receiver face with 1000 grit sandpaper on a piece of granite.

 

[blackriflecollector]

All the talk about crowns got me wondering if I was missing out on additional accuracy with this rifle, so I decided to have the crown re-cut on a lathe by a "real" gunsmith. It definitely looks better than my attempt, however now I have some marks in the finish where I assume the barrel was making contact with the jaws in the chuck. No biggie as I plan to Cerakote the entire barreled action anyway. I took it out to the range this morning for a checkout with the same hand loads as my last go round. Shot off of front and rear bags. I shot 6 strings of 5 shot groups. Best group was .440" and the rest were .485", .490", .515", .535", and .735". I shot the smallest group on the second string. Hardly scientific, but I believe the hand cut crown was "good enough" and this is at best a .5 MOA rifle in my hands.

 

[Night Eagle]

I'm suprised u have done all that work yet haven't bedded the rifle. U might try skim bedding it I bet it will tighten ur groups even more. Especially since u put a new barrel on it might not be getting an exact fit

Night eagle

 

[Jedi]

Most here will chase smaller groups at the expense of their wallet

MOA or better is all i ask from my rigs, sure they all shoot better than that

But in this game where unknown distance is king, flatter always wins. Reloading and giving up 100fps to shoot .3 vs .75 is pointless IMHO

 

[blackriflecollector]

I'm suprised u have done all that work yet haven't bedded the rifle. U might try skim bedding it I bet it will tighten ur groups even more. Especially since u put a new barrel on it might not be getting an exact fit

Night eagle

It's in a HS Precision stock with an aluminum bedding block. I may try bedding just ahead of the lug to see if I get any improvement.

 

[Night Eagle]

just because it has a bedding block does not mean its sitting in the stock 100% secure and tight. especially since you switched barrels...bedding with marine tex or something similar wont hurt and will prob tighten up your groups.

night eagle

 

[bluto77]

I'm in the process of learning about how different things done to a rifle effect it's accuracy. I was under the impression that "truing the action" made substantial improvements to accuracy. Is that not so? Based on all the work you've put into the rifle, seems like the action should be trued. Also, how did the 175 gr rounds differ from the 168's? I would think the faster twist you have would prefer 175's.

Great thread. I have no machinist skills, so this kind of work would be beyond me without some training, but I do like to "tinker" with some of my rifles a bit.

 

[Maestro Pistolero]

The fact that you got a significant change in accuracy after changing the torque on the action screws seems to point to bedding as a primary factor.

 

[Avgjoe]

Impressive results. Congrats. I would have never tried that on my own!

Mike