So I bought a gun level to mount on my rail. I leveled the gun and noticed that my leupold mark 4 was crooked. I looked thru the scope and the reticle seemed level. I broke out another level and leveled the turrets with the gun. When I looked thru the scope the reticle was crooked. I thought that it may be the scope so I broke out the uso I had been saving along with some badger rings and did the same thing. Leveled the gun and leveled the scope using a bubble level on top of the erek knob. I then looked thru the scope and got the same result, the reticle looked canted. Is this an optical illusion or am I doing something wrong?
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Rifle Scopes amateur night
- Thread starter nexusfire
- Start date
Re: amateur night
Hang a plumb bob on a string and check the reticle against it from ~20 yards or so away.
Hang a plumb bob on a string and check the reticle against it from ~20 yards or so away.
Re: amateur night
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jasonk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You're crooked? </div></div>
This or one of your levels is off.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jasonk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You're crooked? </div></div>
This or one of your levels is off.
Re: amateur night
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Drifter_1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hang a plumb bob on a string and check the reticle against it from ~20 yards or so away. </div></div>
Touche...
What are you checking these levels against?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Drifter_1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hang a plumb bob on a string and check the reticle against it from ~20 yards or so away. </div></div>
Touche...
What are you checking these levels against?
Re: amateur night
While I still like my advice....well it wasn't really advice....I do suggest you check it with a string and plumb bob. We all think we're level until we check, come to find out.....no so much.
While I still like my advice....well it wasn't really advice....I do suggest you check it with a string and plumb bob. We all think we're level until we check, come to find out.....no so much.
Re: amateur night
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jasonk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You're crooked? </div></div>
Not ruling that out. I used a bubble level on the gun. The kind you attach to the rail. Then I put another bubble on the erek knob and checked them against each other.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jasonk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You're crooked? </div></div>
Not ruling that out. I used a bubble level on the gun. The kind you attach to the rail. Then I put another bubble on the erek knob and checked them against each other.
Re: amateur night
Hopefully, this is not the underlying problem (LOL):
Assuming the issue is elswhere, if you simply lay the scope(s) on a flat (fairly) level surface, does it appear to your eye that the turrets, reticle, and flat surface are misaligned relative to one another? If not, you've solved the problem. If they seem to be in proper alignment, then the issue is likely something to do with the mounting process.
If so, check to ensure that the rail itself is level at the specific site you want to mount the scope. You'll probably also want to check whether the bubble anti-cant device is actually centered when the rail is level. Depending on the type you have, you may find that even though the rail is level, the anti-cant bubble is not centered, which is why it's probably better not to use that as your level reference. Next, mount your scope using a plumb line as suggested. Check the reticle with the plumb line <span style="font-style: italic">before</span>, <span style="font-style: italic">during</span>, and <span style="font-style: italic">after</span> tightening the rings. If you tighten the rings down unevenly (ie. tighten the screws on one side of a ring all the way down, then the other side), it can cause the scope to twist very slightly so that the reticle is no longer in the starting alignment relative to the plumb line. If it moves, you'll need to loosen the rings and start over. Once you get the scope successfully mounted so that reticle is aligned with the plumb line and you know the rail is also level, check your turrets again. If they're still crooked to your eye, either the reticle and turrets themselves are not perfectly aligned, or it could be some kind of an optical illusion.
Not sure what I'd do at that point. Probably I'd live with the turrets being (or appearing to be) out of alignment with the reticle. As long as you're certain the rail is level and the reticle is correctly aligned by the plumb line method, does it really matter from a practical standpoint if the turrets look slightly misaligned? Although it would probably bug the crap out of me also, it's more important that the reticle is level than the turrets.
Hopefully, this is not the underlying problem (LOL):
Assuming the issue is elswhere, if you simply lay the scope(s) on a flat (fairly) level surface, does it appear to your eye that the turrets, reticle, and flat surface are misaligned relative to one another? If not, you've solved the problem. If they seem to be in proper alignment, then the issue is likely something to do with the mounting process.
If so, check to ensure that the rail itself is level at the specific site you want to mount the scope. You'll probably also want to check whether the bubble anti-cant device is actually centered when the rail is level. Depending on the type you have, you may find that even though the rail is level, the anti-cant bubble is not centered, which is why it's probably better not to use that as your level reference. Next, mount your scope using a plumb line as suggested. Check the reticle with the plumb line <span style="font-style: italic">before</span>, <span style="font-style: italic">during</span>, and <span style="font-style: italic">after</span> tightening the rings. If you tighten the rings down unevenly (ie. tighten the screws on one side of a ring all the way down, then the other side), it can cause the scope to twist very slightly so that the reticle is no longer in the starting alignment relative to the plumb line. If it moves, you'll need to loosen the rings and start over. Once you get the scope successfully mounted so that reticle is aligned with the plumb line and you know the rail is also level, check your turrets again. If they're still crooked to your eye, either the reticle and turrets themselves are not perfectly aligned, or it could be some kind of an optical illusion.
Not sure what I'd do at that point. Probably I'd live with the turrets being (or appearing to be) out of alignment with the reticle. As long as you're certain the rail is level and the reticle is correctly aligned by the plumb line method, does it really matter from a practical standpoint if the turrets look slightly misaligned? Although it would probably bug the crap out of me also, it's more important that the reticle is level than the turrets.
Re: amateur night
You are no doubt aware of this, but a quick way to check a level is to place it on a surface, note the reading, rotate it 180 degrees, and see if you get the same reading. Like anything else, levels aren't always true and don't always stay that way.
You are no doubt aware of this, but a quick way to check a level is to place it on a surface, note the reading, rotate it 180 degrees, and see if you get the same reading. Like anything else, levels aren't always true and don't always stay that way.
Re: amateur night
Feeler gauge mounting method has never done me wrong.
Check your levels, and your bench top.
Plumb lines don't lie, gravity sucks in a fairly constant way. Just don't do a plumb line 3 feet in front of the rifle.
Feeler gauge mounting method has never done me wrong.
Check your levels, and your bench top.
Plumb lines don't lie, gravity sucks in a fairly constant way. Just don't do a plumb line 3 feet in front of the rifle.
Re: amateur night
Sorry my friend, I couldn't help myself. Could you imagine how tough that would be to get a decent cheek weld (LOL)?
Hope you get everything worked out with the scope. I just mounted an NF 5.5-22x50 using a Badger 1 piece medium ring mount on a new GAP Crusader a couple days ago, and for some reason, it took me a fair bit of fiddling to get it right. I'm sure it will be worth it in the long run. Good luck with yours.
Edited to add:
BTW, I purchased the Indoor Optical Training Aid (IOTA) a few months ago from Chuck here at the Hide:
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2170458#Post2170458
In addition to its primary function as a training aid for dry firing, it also turns out to be very useful for aligning your reticle via the plumb line method, particularly if the level surface you use is very close to a wall (a very long kitchen island is the most convenient surface to use in my case). Otherwise, focusing clearly on the plumb line at short range is challenging at best, even on low mag as Rancid pointed out above.
Sorry my friend, I couldn't help myself. Could you imagine how tough that would be to get a decent cheek weld (LOL)?
Hope you get everything worked out with the scope. I just mounted an NF 5.5-22x50 using a Badger 1 piece medium ring mount on a new GAP Crusader a couple days ago, and for some reason, it took me a fair bit of fiddling to get it right. I'm sure it will be worth it in the long run. Good luck with yours.
Edited to add:
BTW, I purchased the Indoor Optical Training Aid (IOTA) a few months ago from Chuck here at the Hide:
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2170458#Post2170458
In addition to its primary function as a training aid for dry firing, it also turns out to be very useful for aligning your reticle via the plumb line method, particularly if the level surface you use is very close to a wall (a very long kitchen island is the most convenient surface to use in my case). Otherwise, focusing clearly on the plumb line at short range is challenging at best, even on low mag as Rancid pointed out above.
Re: amateur night
optical illusion. your head is round. when you aquire a cheek weld, your head is tilted. use the levels and plumb line and trust them.
optical illusion. your head is round. when you aquire a cheek weld, your head is tilted. use the levels and plumb line and trust them.
Re: amateur night
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gstaylorg</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> it's more important that the reticle is level than the turrets. </div></div>
How do you figure? The only part of the reticule that matters is the center point. The windage and elevation track in line with the turrets, not the crosshair. If the turrets are not level to the rifle, you've added cant to the whole equation and now whenever you dial elevation for range, you've added windage as well.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gstaylorg</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> it's more important that the reticle is level than the turrets. </div></div>
How do you figure? The only part of the reticule that matters is the center point. The windage and elevation track in line with the turrets, not the crosshair. If the turrets are not level to the rifle, you've added cant to the whole equation and now whenever you dial elevation for range, you've added windage as well.
Re: amateur night
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AXEMAN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">optical illusion. your head is round. when you aquire a cheek weld, your head is tilted. use the levels and plumb line and trust them.
</div></div>
If the reticle crosshairs were grossly out of alignment with the turrets, the use of the plumb line approach would cause elevation/windage adjustments to introduce error exactly as you described. That would further suggest that the plumb line method is unreliable unless one knows for certain their reticle and turrets are, in fact, correctly aligned. I've mounted a number of scopes (all Nightforce) this way and tested the tracking using the box method. When the reticle was correctly leveled using the plumb line method, I could not detect any cant error introduced into the elevation or windage adjustments. So for me, it works to an acceptable degree. Are there scopes by other manufacturers for which this approach might be questionable? Possibly, but I don't really know. There was a post here indicating that one manufacturer considered a certain amount of cant (which seemed pretty large to me) between the reticle and turrets acceptable. I have simply trusted that the reticles and turrets of the scopes I have are aligned, and it has worked for me. So my take is that if the reticle and turrets are actually out of alignment, 1) you'll never be able to get both the reticle and turrets level at the same time, and 2) there is a serious flaw in the design and/or manufacture of that particular scope. But hey, WTF do I know (LOL)?
There are a number of individuals here that have also described the use of a feeler gauge under the flat bottom of the scope to achieve the same goal, and perhaps this would be a more reliable method with regard to getting the turrets correctly aligned, but I have never tried this method.
My take from reading the OP's posts is the same as what AXEMAN stated, most likely an optical illusion. So my suggestion was to simply trust that the reticle was properly aligned with the turrets and use the plumb line method.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AXEMAN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">optical illusion. your head is round. when you aquire a cheek weld, your head is tilted. use the levels and plumb line and trust them.
</div></div>
If the reticle crosshairs were grossly out of alignment with the turrets, the use of the plumb line approach would cause elevation/windage adjustments to introduce error exactly as you described. That would further suggest that the plumb line method is unreliable unless one knows for certain their reticle and turrets are, in fact, correctly aligned. I've mounted a number of scopes (all Nightforce) this way and tested the tracking using the box method. When the reticle was correctly leveled using the plumb line method, I could not detect any cant error introduced into the elevation or windage adjustments. So for me, it works to an acceptable degree. Are there scopes by other manufacturers for which this approach might be questionable? Possibly, but I don't really know. There was a post here indicating that one manufacturer considered a certain amount of cant (which seemed pretty large to me) between the reticle and turrets acceptable. I have simply trusted that the reticles and turrets of the scopes I have are aligned, and it has worked for me. So my take is that if the reticle and turrets are actually out of alignment, 1) you'll never be able to get both the reticle and turrets level at the same time, and 2) there is a serious flaw in the design and/or manufacture of that particular scope. But hey, WTF do I know (LOL)?
There are a number of individuals here that have also described the use of a feeler gauge under the flat bottom of the scope to achieve the same goal, and perhaps this would be a more reliable method with regard to getting the turrets correctly aligned, but I have never tried this method.
My take from reading the OP's posts is the same as what AXEMAN stated, most likely an optical illusion. So my suggestion was to simply trust that the reticle was properly aligned with the turrets and use the plumb line method.
Re: amateur night
I had the same issue with my scope. Turns out it WAS me. I was shooting lefty, but I found out I am right eye dominant. When I started shooting right handed with both eyes open the rticle was perfect.
I had the same issue with my scope. Turns out it WAS me. I was shooting lefty, but I found out I am right eye dominant. When I started shooting right handed with both eyes open the rticle was perfect.
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