Ammo selection & How to test factory .308?

[Mojo_Hand_052]

I very recently purchased a 20" Tikka CTR in .308 (1:11 twist), and would like to start testing some factory ammo. Its in the factory stock and I'll be shooting with a Athlon Cronus. I have access to a Dillon reloading press, but would like to shoot some factory rounds in order to collect brass and narrow down what my gun likes best. That being said, there is a mind-boggling array of different .308 match-loads and I don't know where to start. There are a lot of 168 grain HPBT and SMK loads that seem like obvious choices, but I need some guidance on what factory ammo to be pairing with my barrel and its given twist rate.

Secondly, what's a good procedure for testing ammunition? I very likely will not have a bench rest setup (or a chronograph), and will instead be shooting off a Harris bipod and rear bag. Is this sufficient? I am a novice shooter and am concerned about how my inexperience may give me spurious results. I have done quite a bit of research into precision shooting techniques, and do understand the basics of trigger control, breathing, sight alignment and natural point of aim, however.

Other questions:

1. How should I set up the target array to keep track of the different ammunition being used? Some suggest placing dots on a large piece of cardboard or poster board and then just writing load details next to the relevant dot.
2. Should I choose a factory loading at random with which to zero my optic, or should I use a more methodical approach?
3. Should I be using a ballistic calculator like Strelok Pro to adjust my elevation for each particular loading or should I not worry about messing with the turrets? It doesn't seem necessary given that I'm shooting at 100 yards.
4. How many rounds should be fired in a particular string to constitute a satisfactory group? Some say 5, others 7, and then some even insist on 10. In my own estimation, boxes of ammo come in 20 round packages which are divisible by 5. That means four strings at five shots each for a large sample size.
5. What is a good application for determining group size? I've used Range Buddy in the past but found its interface to be unbearably clunky. Is there a better alternative for a shot group calculator?

Finally, what are some other things I should be focusing on while I'm doing the testing? That is, how can I really maximize my range time.

Any help would be much appreciated!

 

[OG10]

I have shot a lot of Tikka t3, t3x ctr , light, superlight, blue and stainless all in 308 they were all different but had I thing in common they all shot 168 fgmm with sierra match kings very well. Tnat is where I would start. Get some standard 8x11 white paper draw circles around a quarter color the center, I use red orange and yellow what ever color you use doesn't matter as long as your reticle stands out its cheap and if you have children they can get involved. Then use any type of writing utensil and put your info on the target,ammo, date , time , temp , wind the more info the better, save tbese for your future use and to monitor your progress.Good luck and post your results.

 

[ShtrRdy]

Try the Federal Gold Metal Match first. Get a box of 168 gr SMK and a box of 175 hr SMK. Shoot some groups with each to see if the rifle likes one of those.

You left out an important point in the shot sequence - Follow Through.

 

[308pirate]

You're an engineer, ain't you?

 

[308pirate]

There are a lot of 168 grain HPBT and SMK loads that seem like obvious choices, but I need some guidance on what factory ammo to be pairing with my barrel and its given twist rate. Forget twist rate. Its influence on accuracy is overstated.

Secondly, what's a good procedure for testing ammunition? I very likely will not have a bench rest setup (or a chronograph), and will instead be shooting off a Harris bipod and rear bag. Is this sufficient? I am a novice shooter and am concerned about how my inexperience may give me spurious results. I have done quite a bit of research into precision shooting techniques, and do understand the basics of trigger control, breathing, sight alignment and natural point of aim, however.
You don't absolutely need a chronograph, so don't let that stop you. You're right to be concerned about user error influencing the results, but fretting about it fixes nothing. Be brutally honest about calling the shot. If you don't know what I mean by that, there's plenty of info out there on what "calling the shot" means.

Other questions:

1. How should I set up the target array to keep track of the different ammunition being used? Some suggest placing dots on a large piece of cardboard or poster board and then just writing load details next to the relevant dot. The method you describe is just as good as any. KISS.
2. Should I choose a factory loading at random with which to zero my optic, or should I use a more methodical approach? Use a premium match load from a mainstream manufacturer. Don't make it more complicated than that.
3. Should I be using a ballistic calculator like Strelok Pro to adjust my elevation for each particular loading or should I not worry about messing with the turrets? It doesn't seem necessary given that I'm shooting at 100 yards. Forget the ballistic calculator. First, you're looking for acceptable accuracy out of a set of given loads. Any mismatch between point of aim and point of impact is irrelevant when testing for accuracy and gets nulled out later when you decide which load(s) to stick to.
4. How many rounds should be fired in a particular string to constitute a satisfactory group? Some say 5, others 7, and then some even insist on 10. In my own estimation, boxes of ammo come in 20 round packages which are divisible by 5. That means four strings at five shots each for a large sample size. Five is fine. Larger groups start to magnify user error. Leave them for later when you're skilled enough.
5. What is a good application for determining group size? I've used Range Buddy in the past but found its interface to be unbearably clunky. Is there a better alternative for a shot group calculator? I use a pair of calipers. Does it really matter if your measurement capability is within .001" or within .010"? The answer is no.

Finally, what are some other things I should be focusing on while I'm doing the testing? That is, how can I really maximize my range time.

Any help would be much appreciated!

Answers in yellow

 

[M8541Reaper]

Ammo Suggestions:
Weight: 168, 175, 178
Brands: FGMM, Hornady, Black Hills
**I’d try various weights and types from each brand**

Target Suggestions:
Go online and print whatever style you group best with or use stickers (shoot-n-See or colored paper ring protectors). The targets should be exactly the same and not change from ammo to ammo. Consistency is key. You can either add a text box on the targets with the ammo specifics before printing or print labels (stickers) to slap on the target. Secure the targets to a large piece of construction paper, take a picture for reference, and roll it up until you hit the range. While shooting refer to your picture so you know what ammo is to be shot at which target.

Position Suggestions:
Shoot off of a pack instead of bipods.

Process Suggestion:
If your rifle has previously been zeroed at 100 with a similar weight, you shouldn’t be too far off from POA. Being that you’re not zeroing, you could do something like this on a 4 target paper:

2rds @ tgt 1: adjust POI to POA
3rds @ tgt 2: first group
5rds @ tgt 3: second group
5rds @ tgt 4: third group

You could also just split it up between two range days if you have a bunch of ammo, limited time, or if you aren’t at 100% (or feel yourself getting burned out). Personally I hate shooting more than 3 round groups because I’m a piece of shit, well that and I hate grouping drills. But if I shoot groups of three at the same style tgt, I can compare the POI patterns with one another and look for patterns or issues.

If you’re splitting between two range days, you can just cut the count to 10rds:
1rd @ tgt 1
4rds @ tgt 2
5rds @ tgt 3

Or

1rd @ tgt 1
3rds @ tgt 2, 3, 4

And then repeat it the exact same way next time you hit the range and compare the two targets.


Analysis/Recording Suggestion:
After you’re done, add a 1” reference point to your target (if it doesn’t have one) and try out the Ballistic-X app. That app is super easy to use and their team seems honestly concerned with feedback. You can also save a digital copy with the Ballistic-X overlay info on your phone. I also like to scan in my targets and save them in a folder for future reference.

Disclaimer: I don’t reload and only do ammo testing when I venture away from FGMM 175. However I’ve done this for testing a bunch of different types of Hornady, Black Hills, FGMM, Defender, Buffalo Bore, XM118LR, and M118LR, and it’s worked well. There are plenty of dudes here who reload and do testing all the time, so I’m sure they have some good ideas to share. However I think the above works well for being consistent and easily recordable. ...at least it does for me.

 

[TxWelder35]

Sounds like you just need to go out and start sending rounds down range before you start getting into the nuances of picking the marginally better ammo.

Go buy 500 rounds of 168gr federal gold metal match and shoot every one of them. Some experience behind the trigger will do you a lot more good than trying to interpret different ammo groupings of a new shooter

 

[308pirate]

Sounds like you just need to go out and start sending rounds down range before you start getting into the nuances of picking the marginally better ammo.

Go buy 500 rounds of 168gr federal gold metal match and shoot every one of them. Some experience behind the trigger will do you a lot more good than trying to interpret different ammo groupings of a new shooter

That's a FACT, Jack

 

[littlepod]

+1 on FGMM. My Tikka T3X CTR 20" absolutely loves it. It does NOT like PPU 168gr though. I have Aussie 168gr SMK coming next week to play with as well.

 

[Mojo_Hand_052]

Mega-shit-ton worth of good advice in here. Thank you all. I'll provide individual responses below.

My major takeaways right now:

• I am overthinking things
• Ballistic differences between various factory loadings are not as important for me right now as trigger time.
• Pretty much FGMM all day every day.
• Shoot off a bag, not a bipod
• 5 shot strings are more than adequate
• Make cheap targets; use cheap targets
• Start reloading ASAP because match .308 is hella expensive
• I am overthinking things, like, a lot

Here's the ammo I settled on:

• 167gr OTM Scenar Lapua - 50 Rounds (spendy but I get to collect that excellent Lapua brass)
• 168gr Sierra Matchking BTHP Federal Gold Medal - 20 Rounds
• 175 Grain BTHP SMK OTM Razorcore Match Ammo by IMI - 20 rounds
• Hornady 178 grain BTHP Match - 20 rounds
• Federal Gold Medal Match 168 Grain BTHP - 200 rounds

That gives me 310 rounds total for both training and testing. Not bad.

You left out an important point in the shot sequence - Follow Through.

Good point. As far as I understand it, follow through requires that the trigger is pulled with consistent pressure all the way to back and to it's maximum rearward travel?

You're an engineer, ain't you?

Ha, close. In the architectural design business, but I was always more into CNC machines and 3D printers in college. My bro works at Bell Helicopter as a stress analyst, though. We talk shop.

Ammo Suggestions:
Weight: 168, 175, 178
Brands: FGMM, Hornady, Black Hills
**I’d try various weights and types from each brand**

Position Suggestions:
Shoot off of a pack instead of bipods.

Thank you for the extremely thorough response. I think that's a very sound testing process and I'm looking forward to putting it to use. One question, though. What is the advantage of shooting off a bag rather than a bipod. I would speculate that the bipod would provide more stability overall, but I recognize that I lack both experience and expertise in this matter. I do have access to a Bulls Bag rest bag, so that might save me money on a Harris Bipod for right now. I'll try to experiment shooting off the bench, and then shooting prone as well.

Sounds like you just need to go out and start sending rounds down range before you start getting into the nuances of picking the marginally better ammo.

Go buy 500 rounds of 168gr federal gold metal match and shoot every one of them. Some experience behind the trigger will do you a lot more good than trying to interpret different ammo groupings of a new shooter

That's good advice, and I recognize that I'm probably getting a little too analytical in my approach. As far as my shooting game is concerned what are some obvious things I should be practicing in-between and during trigger pulls?

I did go and look at buying 500 rounds of FGMM and then cried on inside. Between this and trying to get into USPSA I'll probably need to start selling my plasma to afford ammo. ?

 

[308pirate]

I'm going to disagree on the shooting from a pack thing.

It's much easier to learn to shoot consistently from a bipod than it is from some uneven, non-uniform surface like a backpack.

 

[M8541Reaper]

I'm going to disagree on the shooting from a pack thing.

It's much easier to learn to shoot consistently from a bipod than it is from some uneven, non-uniform surface like a backpack.

I get how it can seem like that, if you’re not used to it. It comes down to how and what you pack, if you’re using your range bag. I shoot off of my MR 3DAP all the time, and have been using this method dating back to when we used to shoot off of our buttpacks in sniper school. No issues with it being unstable/uneven/etc once it’s set. Adding a shooting support/rest also can make it even easier.

It can be an extremely stable position and will allow you to catch trace through your glass.

If you don't have a pack, you can just use one or two sandbags with a support (like a claymore bag with two sand socks) placed on top.

Just my opinion based on what has worked over the years and at various courses. Best thing would be to try it out and see if it works for you.

 

[M8541Reaper]

Mega-shit-ton worth of good advice in here. Thank you all. I'll provide individual responses below.

My major takeaways right now:

• I am overthinking things
• Ballistic differences between various factory loadings are not as important for me right now as trigger time.
• Pretty much FGMM all day every day.
• Shoot off a bag, not a bipod
• 5 shot strings are more than adequate
• Make cheap targets; use cheap targets
• Start reloading ASAP because match .308 is hella expensive
• I am overthinking things, like, a lot

Here's the ammo I settled on:

• 167gr OTM Scenar Lapua - 50 Rounds (spendy but I get to collect that excellent Lapua brass)
• 168gr Sierra Matchking BTHP Federal Gold Medal - 20 Rounds
• 175 Grain BTHP SMK OTM Razorcore Match Ammo by IMI - 20 rounds
• Hornady 178 grain BTHP Match - 20 rounds
• Federal Gold Medal Match 168 Grain BTHP - 200 rounds

That gives me 310 rounds total for both training and testing. Not bad.



Good point. As far as I understand it, follow through requires that the trigger is pulled with consistent pressure all the way to back and to it's maximum rearward travel?



Ha, close. In the architectural design business, but I was always more into CNC machines and 3D printers in college. My bro works at Bell Helicopter as a stress analyst, though. We talk shop.



Thank you for the extremely thorough response. I think that's a very sound testing process and I'm looking forward to putting it to use. One question, though. What is the advantage of shooting off a bag rather than a bipod. I would speculate that the bipod would provide more stability overall, but I recognize that I lack both experience and expertise in this matter. I do have access to a Bulls Bag rest bag, so that might save me money on a Harris Bipod for right now. I'll try to experiment shooting off the bench, and then shooting prone as well.



That's good advice, and I recognize that I'm probably getting a little too analytical in my approach. As far as my shooting game is concerned what are some obvious things I should be practicing in-between and during trigger pulls?

I did go and look at buying 500 rounds of FGMM and then cried on inside. Between this and trying to get into USPSA I'll probably need to start selling my plasma to afford ammo. ?

I think there’s a dude in the PX who sells cases (500rds) just over $400. It’s the best price I’ve seen on FGMM. Another source is Ammoseek.

See my above response about shooting off of a pack va bipod (I forgot to tag ya in it). Give it a try and see if it works for ya. My data recording teeters on OCD and definitely is more work than is required to test ammo lol.

The others hit it on the head about shooting and fine-tuning your fundamentals. If you have it in the budget, which you should at some point, is take a formal class from a reputable source.

 

[308pirate]

I get how it can seem like that, if you’re not used to it. It comes down to how and what you pack, if you’re using your range bag. I shoot off of my MR 3DAP all the time, and have been using this method dating back to when we used to shoot off of our buttpacks in sniper school. No issues with it being unstable/uneven/etc once it’s set. Adding a shooting support/rest also can make it even easier.

It can be an extremely stable position and will allow you to catch trace through your glass.

If you don't have a pack, you can just use one or two sandbags with a support (like a claymore bag with two sand socks) placed on top.

Just my opinion based on what has worked over the years and at various courses. Best thing would be to try it out and see if it works for you.

I have to admit, my experience doing that is not as much as yours. I do quite a bit of positional shooting practice using a sand bag but that's not the same

 

[TxWelder35]

Mega-shit-ton worth of good advice in here. Thank you all. I'll provide individual responses below.

My major takeaways right now:

• I am overthinking things
• Ballistic differences between various factory loadings are not as important for me right now as trigger time.
• Pretty much FGMM all day every day.
• Shoot off a bag, not a bipod
• 5 shot strings are more than adequate
• Make cheap targets; use cheap targets
• Start reloading ASAP because match .308 is hella expensive
• I am overthinking things, like, a lot

Here's the ammo I settled on:

• 167gr OTM Scenar Lapua - 50 Rounds (spendy but I get to collect that excellent Lapua brass)
• 168gr Sierra Matchking BTHP Federal Gold Medal - 20 Rounds
• 175 Grain BTHP SMK OTM Razorcore Match Ammo by IMI - 20 rounds
• Hornady 178 grain BTHP Match - 20 rounds
• Federal Gold Medal Match 168 Grain BTHP - 200 rounds

That gives me 310 rounds total for both training and testing. Not bad.



Good point. As far as I understand it, follow through requires that the trigger is pulled with consistent pressure all the way to back and to it's maximum rearward travel?



Ha, close. In the architectural design business, but I was always more into CNC machines and 3D printers in college. My bro works at Bell Helicopter as a stress analyst, though. We talk shop.



Thank you for the extremely thorough response. I think that's a very sound testing process and I'm looking forward to putting it to use. One question, though. What is the advantage of shooting off a bag rather than a bipod. I would speculate that the bipod would provide more stability overall, but I recognize that I lack both experience and expertise in this matter. I do have access to a Bulls Bag rest bag, so that might save me money on a Harris Bipod for right now. I'll try to experiment shooting off the bench, and then shooting prone as well.



That's good advice, and I recognize that I'm probably getting a little too analytical in my approach. As far as my shooting game is concerned what are some obvious things I should be practicing in-between and during trigger pulls?

I did go and look at buying 500 rounds of FGMM and then cried on inside. Between this and trying to get into USPSA I'll probably need to start selling my plasma to afford ammo. ?

I prefer a bipod over a pack any day but to each his own.

As for reloading, you a a little new to the game to start thinking about throwing reloading into the mix at this moment. I've started recently and it's a much bigger can of worms than I anticipated. You have to know what, how, and why you are doing things to get results even close to factory ammo much less better. It's a lot more than dumping powder in a case and pressing a bullet on top.

Trigger control and learn how to not flinch. Buy a dummy round, have a friend load up your magazine for you and put the dummy round in randomly. That will reveal quite a bit about your shooting technique if you are willing to be honest to yourself. When you pull the trigger on the dummy round, if the reticle moves at all you are doing something wrong. Most people don't even realize they have a flinch until they do something similar to that

 

[M8541Reaper]

I prefer a bipod over a pack any day but to each his own.

As for reloading, you a a little new to the game to start thinking about throwing reloading into the mix at this moment. I've started recently and it's a much bigger can of worms than I anticipated. You have to know what, how, and why you are doing things to get results even close to factory ammo much less better. It's a lot more than dumping powder in a case and pressing a bullet on top.

Trigger control and learn how to not flinch. Buy a dummy round, have a friend load up your magazine for you and put the dummy round in randomly. That will reveal quite a bit about your shooting technique if you are willing to be honest to yourself. When you pull the trigger on the dummy round, if the reticle moves at all you are doing something wrong. Most people don't even realize they have a flinch until they do something similar to that

All excellent points.

Yea the bag vs bipod is definitely personal preference. I always recommend that everyone gives it a try to see how it works for them, especially if they haven’t tried it before.

What you said about the dummy rounds is worth more than most other advice out there. Nothing beats mixing those in, especially when someone else loads the mags. Same goes for pistol and carbine training.
“Oh you’re not jerking/bucking?”
::watches entire rifle move as it goes click:: lol

 

[TxWelder35]

All excellent points.

Yea the bag vs bipod is definitely personal preference. I always recommend that everyone gives it a try to see how it works for them, especially if they haven’t tried it before.

What you said about the dummy rounds is worth more than most other advice out there. Nothing beats mixing those in, especially when someone else loads the mags. Same goes for pistol and carbine training.
“Oh you’re not jerking/bucking?”
::watches entire rifle move as it goes click:: lol

I've just about trained all my flinch out of long range shooting but put an AR or pistol in my hand and there is no guarantees. Definitely not as bad as most but it's still there. I've caught myself doing it a number of times and I am by no means an unexperienced shooter

 

[M8541Reaper]

I have to admit, my experience doing that is not as much as yours. I do quite a bit of positional shooting practice using a sand bag but that's not the same

I definitely lack experience in the PRS-style positional work with all the different barricades and whatnot, but am starting to play around with them in training.

 

[ShtrRdy]

M8541Reaper -- what do you use to fill a pack with so you have something solid to shoot off of?

 

[M8541Reaper]

M8541Reaper -- what do you use to fill a pack with so you have something solid to shoot off of?

If you’re talking about a buttpack or specifically purposed smaller bag for shooting off of, you can get away with a poncho, poncho liner, GORE-TEX/cold/wet weather gear, non-essential equipment (to firing), etc.

If you’re using your range bag, then just pack what you bring to the range and fold your pack accordingly. I have the below in my pack when I head to the range but don’t take out anything that isn’t needed/used while firing. Pack ends up being about half full so I fold/tuck the lid under the body or use my scope & crown cover under the pack to help with micro adjustments in height. Once it’s to the desired height, make sure you check and make sure it’s a solid platform for your rifle AND that nothing is touching your barrel or prohibiting you from easily loading/unloading a magazine (if applicable up your system). Being that much height isn’t needed, any size pack with some contents can easily be folded/manipulated to providing a solid support at the right height.

If you’re using something smaller like a plate carrier pack/medium camelbak, then you might need to augment your pack with another shooting bag. A claymore bag filled with two sand socks works perfectly...aka a poor man’s front bag. (FYI don’t underestimate a claymore bag with sand socks versatility lol)

Obviously if a shooter has a larger midsection, this position may need to be fielded with a purpose-specific shooting pack.

What I carry in my MR 3DAP and still use for prone pack shooting:

-Small Tool Kit (Fix It Sticks, Hex keys, lens cloth, FDAC, 5"x6" Thick overlay paper for obj rain cover, 2x rubber bands. I keep this in a small nut ruck/fanny pack)
-Rear Bag/Sand Sock (PSGC)
-Ammo binders (60-100rds)
-3x mags (1x 14rd, 1x 10rd, and 1x 5rd)
-Data Book & Kit (Pen, Pencil, Marker, Ruler, printed targets, etc)
-Roll of 1" Masking Tape/range admin gear in small zipper bag
-Brass Bag
-fouling ammo bag
-Spotting Scope (MK4) & Tripod (PRST)
-Eyes & Ears (I don't use eyes when I run a bolt gun but I keep em with in case an RSO is firm on it)
-Small Trauma Kit w/ SOFT-W
-Range finder
-laminated range & data cheat sheet
-tab gear shooting mat
-no snacks but I definitely need to pack some to keep from being hangry.

I’d be more than happy to take some pics if that would help demonstrate what I’m talking about. Just shoot me a PM and I’ll take some in the garage lol.

Note:
On either getup, you can attach something like an eberlestock (or Blackhawk) shooting support or make one like a Super Boot out of MRE cardboard, duct tape, and ISO Mat lol. Hell we were making shooting supports out of bent 3 prong metal light switch covers, ISO Mat, and duct tape before the HOG saddle came about (I preferred this style over the PVC ones some dudes went with). I had one of these attached to the buttpack and another for the super shitty Walmart tripod lol. Attached to the buttpack made for a great support. You can do the same thing or buy one for $20 and attach it to your pack lol.

All that being said, a good shooter with a solid grasp of fundamentals can shoot bipod, bagged, sling, unsupported, etc. some days you drive with the windows down, some days you don’t. It’s all personal preference and dictated by situation.

Best of luck to the OP with his training and hopefully everyone else has a better range day than me today (range was closed for maintenance). ?

 

[Snuby642]

Save all your brass, even if the rounds sucked in your gun.

Even if you never get around to loading you can make friends with it, maybe a good way to find a local mentor.

 

[Mojo_Hand_052]

Save all your brass, even if the rounds sucked in your gun.

Even if you never get around to loading you can make friends with it, maybe a good way to find a local mentor.

Definitely planning on it. If I don't wind up reloading I can always pray that brass becomes the new currency in the coming apocalypse.

Here's another question: How important is a laser rangefinder to my learning objectives right now? The reason I ask is that my local gun club has a 1200 yard range with steel spaced at about 100 yard increments. Should I be sticking to the 100-200 yard range until I master the fundamentals and shoot super-duper sub MOA groups, or should I also work some longer distance steel shooting into my training?

 

[TxWelder35]

Definitely planning on it. If I don't wind up reloading I can always pray that brass becomes the new currency in the coming apocalypse.

Here's another question: How important is a laser rangefinder to my learning objectives right now? The reason I ask is that my local gun club has a 1200 yard range with steel spaced at about 100 yard increments. Should I be sticking to the 100-200 yard range until I master the fundamentals and shoot super-duper sub MOA groups, or should I also work some longer distance steel shooting into my training?

I'd stay at 100-200 for a while. You will learn plenty at those distances. Adding more range won't help you right now. If you can't shoot sub moa at 100-200 then making any kind of consistent hits any further isn't going to happen.

 

[M8541Reaper]

Definitely planning on it. If I don't wind up reloading I can always pray that brass becomes the new currency in the coming apocalypse.

Here's another question: How important is a laser rangefinder to my learning objectives right now? The reason I ask is that my local gun club has a 1200 yard range with steel spaced at about 100 yard increments. Should I be sticking to the 100-200 yard range until I master the fundamentals and shoot super-duper sub MOA groups, or should I also work some longer distance steel shooting into my training?

I know most say to shoot at 100 until you consistently run sub minute but there’s nothing wrong with pushing out. I know on the internet everyone is running .1-.2MOA systems and can shoot .01MOA all day everyday on command, but reality is that all you need to be successful at distance is capable of shooting a consistent group at 100.

I’d take a dude who can shoot 3rd 1MOA at 100yds on command, in any condition, with factory ammo, every single time he gets down behind the rifle, over the guy who claims to shoot 20rd .1MOA all day but not today because his loads were off and the SD was too big for the sun’s spin drift while the density humidity altitude was fluctuating due to being a cold bore.

If you can’t do it every time you get down behind the gun, it doesn’t count. It’s up to you to see what your threshold is and identify your limits.

Once you can do a 1-2” group at 100, regardless of conditions, move to 200. Grab a spotting scope, if you have one, and practice seeing/reading mirage. If you can learn to quickly find and read what the mirage is doing, you’ll be ahead of most.

If what you read on the internet was even half true, every single person would shoot expert in the military, safely handle weapons at the range, and there wouldn’t be a thread for “what’s the dumbest shit you’ve heard” lol.

If you can, put up paper at distance, then put it up at every 100yds at first, say out to 600, and go from there. Write down what you used for elevation and wind for each shot/target (cough cough data book cough cough) and then start to compare what you’re seeing on the target vs what you estimated for wind. Obviously the tighter the group, the more accurate your analysis will be. Shoot N See diamonds are worth trying with this method. ...and obviously a fresh backer.

Steel will work just as well on an empty/private range, but is a bitch for shot analysis when on a public range and you have ten people shooting at one target at the same time.

The biggest issue is shooters not having a solid understanding of what’s required. That’s where quality training comes in (both for beginners and seasoned shooters). You should always be learning.

As for the rangefinder, why not? Your range might not be exactly what it says it is and you should always confirm. If you can afford it, sure, but no need to go crazy. If it comes down between ammo or a range finder for a new shooter, I’d say match ammo.

Good luck!

 

[308pirate]

Definitely planning on it. If I don't wind up reloading I can always pray that brass becomes the new currency in the coming apocalypse.

Here's another question: How important is a laser rangefinder to my learning objectives right now? The reason I ask is that my local gun club has a 1200 yard range with steel spaced at about 100 yard increments. Should I be sticking to the 100-200 yard range until I master the fundamentals and shoot super-duper sub MOA groups, or should I also work some longer distance steel shooting into my training?

Once your rifle is zeroed at 100 yards you are ready to move forward.

How far depends on two things, your skill and how unafraid are you to fail.

How far? That depends on your current capability at 100 yds. Example, if the 500 yard target is 2.5 - 3.0 MOA in size and your groups at 100 yards are typically 1 - 1.5 MOA then set your scope's elevation to your 500 yard dope and get down to business. That requires you to understand your bullet's trajectory in angular units (milliradians or minutes of arc) as well as how to convert target size in linear units to the angular units that your scope adjusts in.

What I mean by being unafraid to fail is to use your brain to learn from your mistakes and failures without your ego getting in the way. Fail forward.

 

[Mojo_Hand_052]

The advice and support on here has been killer. I don't think I've ever seen this kind of straightforward, no-strings-attached guidance on a message board, and I'm very grateful for it.

I was able to get most everything set up last night, and made sure to spend as much time as necessary to get the optic mounted correctly. Using a building corner as a plumb line and the Arisaka Defense leveler I was able to level the optic with confidence. I'm using Vortex Matched Precision Rings at 1.1 a inch height and noticed only after I had cinched everything down to 19-20 lbs that I had uneven spacing between the rings; so I wound up having to repeat the mounting process. Lessons learned.

One thing that became apparent early on was that A. I'm going to need a longer length of pull (I have gumby arms) and B. I'll need a taller comb height. Even with the 1.1" rings, closing my eyes and moving the rifle into a comfortable cheek weld resulted in exit pupil being too high. For the time being (and until I can upgrade to a chassis) I'll have to stick with a higher than usual cheek weld (or get creative with some foam and electrical tape).

I saved a crap-ton of money buying everything used or on sale, and that helped me fund the Sterk components and the match ammunition. The Sterk bolt handle I purchased didn't fit and so I'm going to have to spend some time tonight filing down the cerakote to get good fitment.

Cronus glass is dope, and I couldn't be happier. I paid significantly less for the Cronus than I would have for a used Razor Gen II and I'm pretty confident I'll get 98.5% of the performance. The APLR reticle, while busier than most, will be a good reticle on which to learn MIL. Speaking of MIL, I'm already seeing the advantages over MOA (which I've been using for my LPV optics). Like, you're telling me I don't have to do any calculations to figure out how to adjust my windage and elevation so long as I can use the reticle itself to measure POI from point of aim? And at any range? SOLD.

If you can’t do it every time you get down behind the gun, it doesn’t count. It’s up to you to see what your threshold is and identify your limits.

Once you can do a 1-2” group at 100, regardless of conditions, move to 200. Grab a spotting scope, if you have one, and practice seeing/reading mirage. If you can learn to quickly find and read what the mirage is doing, you’ll be ahead of most.

The biggest issue is shooters not having a solid understanding of what’s required. That’s where quality training comes in (both for beginners and seasoned shooters). You should always be learning.

Good luck!

Thank you for the sage advice! I think that's the bottom line in shooting sports / training. The people who are the best at it train better and prioritize consistency. It's the same with all the USPSA guys who can burn down stage after stage year after year. It's something to look forward to on my part.

In the meantime I've printed out my thick stack of Larue targets and I'm going to get started tomorrow morning training at 100 yards.

What I mean by being unafraid to fail is to use your brain to learn from your mistakes and failures without your ego getting in the way. Fail forward.

Totally agree. My former hobby was rock climbing, and if you're trying to push your limits in that sport your failure rate on challenging climbs is going to be 80%-90%.

 

[M8541Reaper]

I'll need a taller comb height. Even with the 1.1" rings, closing my eyes and moving the rifle into a comfortable cheek weld resulted in exit pupil being too high. For the time being (and until I can upgrade to a chassis) I'll have to stick with a higher than usual cheek weld (or get creative with some foam and electrical tape).

Regarding the cheek height problem, use closed cell foam (think dense foam, like old green military sleeping pads/ISO mat or the foam most scope companies put their their boxes for shipment) and quality duct tape like gorilla tape.

Cut into little strips and compress/tape each layer down and check the height. You also need to make sure that you leave enough room to remove the bolt without having to untape it all.

If you want to make life easier, drill two small holes at the top of the stock, grab a small piece of 2x2, and file/sand/shave it down to the proper height needed. Drill two holes in it, use bolts/washers/nuts to keep the bolts in place, and put it on the stock. Throw a stock pouch on it (be aware of the added 1/16-1/8” added from that padding) and boom, done. You have a removable cheek piece that is custom fit to your face and stock that is rock solid and won’t compress or slip on you.

I used to build up cheek pieces on my MCM A3 stock with ISO mat then went to the above method. I lost my saddle in all the moves but recently snagged one from a buddy so now I just have the saddle with a spacer block under the stem. But I still have the piece I made if you’re curious about what I mean with the above.

 

[308pirate]

Speaking of MIL, I'm already seeing the advantages over MOA (which I've been using for my LPV optics). Like, you're telling me I don't have to do any calculations to figure out how to adjust my windage and elevation so long as I can use the reticle itself to measure POI from point of aim? And at any range? SOLD

That's not a unique advantage of measuring angles in milliradians. Absolutely not at all. You can do the same exact thing with a scope that has a similar reticle to the APLR but graduated in MOA and with turrets that adjust in MOA.

Angles are angles. So long as your measurement units are consistent between turrets and reticle, MOA or mil works exactly the same.

LPVs with BDC reticles are a completely different animal. I know, I have several too.

 

[Snuby642]

Just looking at your stock.

Looks like there are spacers in the butt
Could you just add more?

Cheek riser looks removable.
Can it be adjusted with spacers under it or layers of leather added and trimmed to fit?

Duct tape and foam ends up messy soon.

 

[Mojo_Hand_052]

I have finally returned from Puerto Rico and had approximately one hour today to go and shoot, which is vanishingly little time, but was extremely educational nonetheless.

Outright, first shot out of the barrel, it became apparent that there is nothing straightforward or easy about precision shooting. The plan was to use a Birchwood Casey 8" Shoot-N-C target to get my rifle zeroed at 100, and then transition to 5 shot groups on Larue 2 square targets. It was just obvious to me that my shot would land somewhere in the vicinity of where I was aiming and that I wouldn't need to adjust elevation or windage to be on paper at that distance.

I did everything by the book. Breathing? check. Gun level? Check. Squarely behind the gun? Check, Sight picture? Check. I carefully squeezed off a round, let the gun do its recoil thing on the bag, and made sure to follow through, and wouldn't you know it -- Nothing. No impacts. Try again. Nothing. Try again. Nothing. No holes in my target. It was confounding that at 100 yards I couldn't land on 8" paper.

No problem. Switch to 50 yards. Another three rounds and I still wasn't on paper. The hell is this? Where are my bullets going?

Right about this point I'm starting to get a little bit panicky until I remember that boresigting is a thing and that I can literally remove the bolt from my gun and look down the barrel. I boresight my gun at 50 yards and then, after sending $12 worth of Lapua Scenar downrange I'm on paper - high right - but on paper.

Using my reticle and just good old-fashioned trial and error, I was able to get my gun sighted in at 50 yards within nine rounds, which is, I am told, six more rounds than it normally takes, but beggars can't be choosers...

I'm running out of time, though, and I quickly jump back over to the 100 yard lane and throw three more rounds downrange for a nice, if piddling sample sample size of ONE group:

What huge mistakes did I make?

1. Assuming that I could land on paper at 100 without first boresighting my gun
2. Giving myself insufficient time, though I did take my time to ensure that I was taking my shots using the right technique. All said and done I was only able to run through 15-16 rounds of Lapua Scenar in the space of an hour.
3. Using a crappy front bag. I was using a Wiebad rear bag (which is great) and one of those cheap-o bag front bags from Amazon. That bitch tore a seam and sand started just pouring out everywhere. It's now in the garbage where it belongs. Lesson learned, buy American; buy quality bags.
4. I'm still not perfectly zeroed at 100, and you can see that I'm still hitting left of POA.
5. Didn't shoot enough to get a good sample size.

What things did I do right?

1. Took as long as I needed for every shot to make sure it was a 'good' shot. If I started feeling tense or anxious, I eased off the gun and then reset. I never took a shot that looked 'okay' or 'just about right.'
2. Worked through my problems without freaking out too much or getting discouraged.
3. When I did finally start landing on paper, my groups were consistent. No fliers, ects.
4. My finger didn't come flying off the trigger after firing.

Final takeaway is that I have a much deeper appreciation for the guys who can go out there and do this stuff consistently and with high efficiency. It is not an easy art and today was intensely humbling.

 

[M8541Reaper]

I have finally returned from Puerto Rico and had approximately one hour today to go and shoot, which is vanishingly little time, but was extremely educational nonetheless.

Outright, first shot out of the barrel, it became apparent that there is nothing straightforward or easy about precision shooting. The plan was to use a Birchwood Casey 8" Shoot-N-C target to get my rifle zeroed at 100, and then transition to 5 shot groups on Larue 2 square targets. It was just obvious to me that my shot would land somewhere in the vicinity of where I was aiming and that I wouldn't need to adjust elevation or windage to be on paper at that distance.

I did everything by the book. Breathing? check. Gun level? Check. Squarely behind the gun? Check, Sight picture? Check. I carefully squeezed off a round, let the gun do its recoil thing on the bag, and made sure to follow through, and wouldn't you know it -- Nothing. No impacts. Try again. Nothing. Try again. Nothing. No holes in my target. It was confounding that at 100 yards I couldn't land on 8" paper.

No problem. Switch to 50 yards. Another three rounds and I still wasn't on paper. The hell is this? Where are my bullets going?

Right about this point I'm starting to get a little bit panicky until I remember that boresigting is a thing and that I can literally remove the bolt from my gun and look down the barrel. I boresight my gun at 50 yards and then, after sending $12 worth of Lapua Scenar downrange I'm on paper - high right - but on paper.

Using my reticle and just good old-fashioned trial and error, I was able to get my gun sighted in at 50 yards within nine rounds, which is, I am told, six more rounds than it normally takes, but beggars can't be choosers...

I'm running out of time, though, and I quickly jump back over to the 100 yard lane and throw three more rounds downrange for a nice, if piddling sample sample size of ONE group:


View attachment 7128901

What huge mistakes did I make?

1. Assuming that I could land on paper at 100 without first boresighting my gun
2. Giving myself insufficient time, though I did take my time to ensure that I was taking my shots using the right technique. All said and done I was only able to run through 15-16 rounds of Lapua Scenar in the space of an hour.
3. Using a crappy front bag. I was using a Wiebad rear bag (which is great) and one of those cheap-o bag front bags from Amazon. That bitch tore a seam and sand started just pouring out everywhere. It's now in the garbage where it belongs. Lesson learned, buy American; buy quality bags.
4. I'm still not perfectly zeroed at 100, and you can see that I'm still hitting left of POA.
5. Didn't shoot enough to get a good sample size.

What things did I do right?

1. Took as long as I needed for every shot to make sure it was a 'good' shot. If I started feeling tense or anxious, I eased off the gun and then reset. I never took a shot that looked 'okay' or 'just about right.'
2. Worked through my problems without freaking out too much or getting discouraged.
3. When I did finally start landing on paper, my groups were consistent. No fliers, ects.
4. My finger didn't come flying off the trigger after firing.

Final takeaway is that I have a much deeper appreciation for the guys who can go out there and do this stuff consistently and with high efficiency. It is not an easy art and today was intensely humbling.

lol yea boresighting definitely saves time and ammo (money) that first go around. Once you get zeroed, make sure you track your fouling rounds (post cleaning). Record your cold bore, amount of rounds to foul, and your Fouled Bore data. Will save you a lot of time/ammo in the future and is good data to have.

Every trip to the range should be a learning experience. Keep it up!

 

[ShtrRdy]

As Reaper said, it's a learning experience. Try not to get too frustrated when things don't go as you think they should.

 

[M8541Reaper]

As Reaper said, it's a learning experience. Try not to get too frustrated when things don't go as you think they should.

I try to tell myself that when I have shit days that make me want to throw my rifle over the berm and set fire to my equipment.

 

[Snuby642]

When you're old a lot of days turn to shit.
Equipment failures, blood pressure , simple mistakes unnoticed , bad ammo.

Thing is stop pissing rounds down range and go home. Put your gear up and have a drink as you Write down what happened. Many times the solution appears as you Write it.

 

[Mojo_Hand_052]

Back from the dead with another range report:

Had more time, shot more rounds. 46 rounds to be precise.

Having already done some preliminary sighting in at 50 yards on my previous trip, it only took (miraculously) three rounds to get zeroed at 100. My previous front bag was broke as hell so I borrowed a Bulls Bag X7 and set up at the bench. My gun range is great, but the benches not so much. I'm 5'-11 and the distance between the seat and the table surface made me feel like a hobbit. I wound up folding my gun bag in half and using it as improvised booster seat, which also had the wonderful side effect of providing padding for my bony ass.

After getting zeroed with the Lapua Scenar (Middle group) I shot another three round group that was entirely underwhelming (Top right).

It was all good, though, because the next three 5rd groups started to tighten up (from Top Left > Bottom Left > Bottom Right).

1st Group: 1.25 MOA
2nd Group: .97 MOA
3rd Group: .86 MOA

Conclusion: Scenar is hella good and I will be buying more (even at the ball-punching cost of $1.80 a round)

I then switched over to Federal Gold and put another 25 rounds on paper, again seeing progressively better groups as I came into a greater instinctual awareness about shot placement. I don't know if this is what the rest of you experience, but there's a kind of utterly silent zen moment where you perceive that everything is as it should be.

1st 5 Shot Group: 1.58 MOA
2nd 5 Shot Group: 1.71 MOA (but technically better shooting overall than the first group)
3rd 5 Shot Group: 1.17 MOA
4th 5 Shot Group: 1.31 MOA
5th 5 Shot Group: .57 MOA (a freak accident, but I felt completely 'in the zone')

Even though my shoulder hurt like hell after 46 rounds of .308, it was a massively positive experience. I could generally tell why bad hits were bad hits, and I could 'sense' when the shot was going to be good (calling shots). I also discovered that some of my best shots were made when I wasn't even thinking about my breathing. It was just clear to me in that millisecond of time before I pulled the trigger that the conditions were perfect.

Major takeaways:

-People often talk about relaxing your body, but I think some emphasis should also be placed upon relaxing your face. I found that when I relaxed my face (and especially the eyelid of my dominant eye) my shooting became more consistent. Keeping your eyelids in a kind of listless, nearly-squinted state seems to be the ticket, but I'm curious to hear if this is actually a beneficial practice.

-Someone next to me was shooting their Aero Precision AR10 build with a 419 Hellfire brake, and it was miserable. I thought that I had gotten my range 'jumpiness' under control. Not really. I jerked every time that gun went off, and it went off a lot. I was considering the Hellfire break but now I'm not so sure. I may skip the break altogether and jump on the suppressor bandwagon instead. Time for a Thunderbeast?

-I didn't need to be at my optic's max magnification range to shoot good groups. Every shot was taken at x15 power, and that was more than adequate to see my hits at 100 yards. The advice I see regularly is to never use more magnification than you absolutely need, and it seems like good advice to me.

-If this game is about consistency, then it doesn't make sense to exclude bad shots from your group calculations. Even if I land four great shots, it's still not a great group if the 5th hit sucks.

-If I am being honest with myself about the averages, I'm probably a 1.3 MOA shooter, even though my technical average comes out to 1.03 MOA for the 8 - five shot groups.

lol yea boresighting definitely saves time and ammo (money) that first go around. Once you get zeroed, make sure you track your fouling rounds (post cleaning). Record your cold bore, amount of rounds to foul, and your Fouled Bore data. Will save you a lot of time/ammo in the future and is good data to have.

Every trip to the range should be a learning experience. Keep it up!

I will definitely do this. I'm planning on picking up one of those portfolio binders with the data-sheets and keeping track of everything. I'm kind of a spreadsheet fiend so once I start building up the data I'm going to look at graphically tracking my performance.

 

[ShtrRdy]

Sounds like a beneficial outing. I'm still learning and I have also noticed the relaxed face . I haven't noticed the eyelid thing but maybe that's happening to me too. You might try shooting three shot groups to see if you can hold it together for that many shots first. And if you're shooting until your shoulder is sore that's probably not doing you any favors.

When I started doing the precision rifle thing I was a 1 to 2 moa shooter. Now I'm a 1/2 to 3/4 moa kind of shooter and trying to get to more consistantly do 1/3 to 1/4 moa. It's a journey. My biggest problem for me these days is I feel tension building in my neck/shoulders as I'm about to fire a shot. Any little difference here will cause a different POI. When I can get to feeling totally relaxed, break the shot at the bottom of my breathing cycle, and follow through by being relaxed as the gun goes off, then magical things happen.

 

[FN-Whitney]

Try not shooting groups but shoot individual dots, get some cheap 1 inch dots and put 1 shot in each dot and move on. Sometimes you can get to focused on the group size and forget that the purpose is to hit the targets.