Amp annealer made loads crap

[lance2121]

Recently bought a AMP gen 1 w/ Aztec. Had a pretty good load built. 6xc..110 smk...cci br2...h4350..norma brass. Had it at 3033 with a sd of 6 at 39.3 gr of h4350. Annealed with the Aztec mode and that load went up to 8.4 sd but the accuracy went to hell. Then done a Satterlee load development. Showed 3 distinct nodes. 1 at 2927 at 38.6 gr. 1 at 2987 at 39.2 gr. 1 at 3026 at 39.7. But when I went to test each individual load they all showed an sd of 8-12 fps. I was under the impression that using an AMP would make things better....what am I missing?

 

[918v]

Could be you over annealed. Could be you cold welded the necks to the bullets. Did u dry lube the necks or did you go bare?

 

[Cascade Hemi]

what am I missing?

$1200

 

[Bradu]

The sd's changing 2.4 fps isn't uncommon from one day to another with zero changes from my experience. Can't help with the accuracy part, that doesn't really make sense that it would change. How much do the groups change?

 

[lance2121]

Could be you over annealed. Could be you cold welded the necks to the bullets. Did u dry lube the necks or did you go bare?

 

[lance2121]

Went bare.

 

[918v]

Do over with imperial dry lube

 

[Fig]

I kinda don’t get it. So they’re over-annealed?; doesn’t that mean the brass is now too soft, and not enough neck tension? Why would you want to lube that?

I don’t know the AMP, but I was under the impression it was the easiest way to get it right...

 

[whatsupdoc]

Grab 20 cases same lot anneal 10, load all 20 at the same time and shoot them the same day and see what happens.
Never had a load that the SD did not vary.

Today I played with my Ruger precision rifle, starting with a clean barrel I fired one fouling round then fired five rounds for a group.
Recorded velocities were 2646 2708 2737 2729 2729. SD would be 37, group was .170, best group the rifle has ever shot with the worst SD.

 

[Milo 2.5]

I doubt I would ever have started annealing w/o bushing dies,, necks get soft after annealing, go smaller bushing to increase tension.
Do you feel a difference in the seating force required?
Now that you are annealing with the amp, maybe your standard needs some tweaking.

 

[918v]

I kinda don’t get it. So they’re over-annealed?; doesn’t that mean the brass is now too soft, and not enough neck tension? Why would you want to lube that?

I don’t know the AMP, but I was under the impression it was the easiest way to get it right...

You don’t understand how this works. The kind of friction imparted by the oxide left after annealing ruins accuracy. Even if the neck is too soft, the abrasive surface of the neck holds on to the bullet too much.

Dry lube not as slick as wet lube.

 

[Bradu]

You don’t understand how this works. The kind of friction imparted by the oxide left after annealing ruins accuracy. Even if the neck is too soft, the abrasive surface of the neck holds on to the bullet too much.

Apparently I don't either because i haven't seen that effect after annealing in the 4 years I have been annealing.

 

[Milo 2.5]

You don’t understand how this works. The kind of friction imparted by the oxide left after annealing ruins accuracy. Even if the neck is too soft, the abrasive surface of the neck holds on to the bullet too much.

Dry lube not as slick as wet lube.

Not tumbling after annealing is just stupid IMO, cleans shit up, inside and out.

 

[918v]

Apparently I don't either because i haven't seen that effect after annealing in the 4 years I have been annealing.

You haven’t seen what I just described???

 

[Bradu]

You haven’t seen what I just described???

Not ruined accuracy even on new brass that I've annealed prior to loading.

 

[antithesis]

Been using the AMP for around 2 years. My best SD's are under 3. I clean the brass and/or brush the necks before annealing, and I also brush the necks after. Annealing does require you do something to clean the necks after otherwise your neck tension will be all over the place.

 

[rangerlong]

Not ruined accuracy even on new brass that I've annealed prior to loading.

Why anneal new brass?
I understood new brass was annealed by the manufacturer. Is that not true? Or are you just trying to ensure consistent annealing?

 

[Bradu]

Why anneal new brass?
I understood new brass was annealed by the manufacturer. Is that not true? Or are you just trying to ensure consistent annealing?

Because it's older brass and figured it wouldn't hurt anything. I have new brass from 20 years ago that I am just starting to use for an Ackley chamber.

 

[Archwarder]

You need to adjust your die when introducing annealing into your reloading to account for the lack of spring back the brass has due to it being softer.

You should not need to alter anything else.

 

[beenawhile1]

Did you anneal before sizing?

 

[Steel head]

$1200

 

[Fig]

I do understand how “this” works. I anneal as a first step before FL and depriming, and then pin tumble before reloading. The way I do it is demonstrably consistent (including neck tension), and till very recently I did not know people used dry lube to seat bullets. I use the dust lube when I’m necking up or down, or drastically changing the profile of the brass.

Hey, if it works it works. I just wasn’t aware of this technique. If this gives you consistency and precision great. I have low sd/es and consistent neck tension without it.

 

[Gil P.]

I'm interested to see your solution. I have never annealed, my SDs are around 9 give or take, ES between 20 and 30s. I've always wondered if annealing would improve my loads.

 

[Milo 2.5]

I'm interested to see your solution. I have never annealed, my SDs are around 9 give or take, ES between 20 and 30s. I've always wondered if annealing would improve my loads.

Guys and gals were shooting tiny groups with tighter numbers at longer distances long before the annealing craze came along. There are tricks you can do to make things better w/o annealing. Though annealing when done right can be a valuable tool in your box.

The cell phone and the delete a shot feature on a magneto screen combined with the internet has done more for load dev than annealing has. Because everyone sets out to shoot 4 shots for record, or, 7, 8, or 9 shots.

 

[mustang-cars]

I have had problems with Norma brass when I annealed. I believe the composition of the brass that Norma uses lends itself to more of a by product or build up on the brass on the inside and outside of the brass. Its a rough like corrosion after annealing. It lends itself to inconsistent seating and higher ES/SD. While I've also noticed the same thing with other brands of brass it is far less. I have stopped using Norma brass as I feel its pretty soft. I also only anneal every other firing. It sucks that the first firing after annealing isn't as good as the second but I think some here have a good idea of cleaning the inside of the neck or using dry lube. I think its not the annealing itself but whatever corrosion or flashing of the brass that comes from annealing that's causing the problem.

 

[918v]

Not ruined accuracy even on new brass that I've annealed prior to loading.

Do you load close to the lands with light neck tension or do you jump your bullets with heavy neck tension?

After starting annealing I ran into neck tension/bullet pull problems. I reduced neck tension but just could not get the consistency back. I even bought a hydraulic press with a pressure gauge and earned a PhD in brass massage science.

I stumbled upon an observation: I pulled some LC ammo and cleaned the shellac sealant out of the case necks with carb cleaner on a qtip. When I seated bullets into those necks they seated smoothly no matter what the neck tension was. Whereas with my annealed necks the bullets just did not want to seat right.

So I took the carb cleaner to my annealed necks and bam it worked. Carb cleaner leaves behind a thin film of lube on the surface. That was the trick.

It was then I started to pay close attention to factory ammo and noticed the cases and the bullets are waxed. The wax acts as a lubricant and helps with bullet seating and cold welding prevention.

But imperial dry lube is easier to apply and actually works better.

 

[lance2121]

Thanks for all the responses. 1st thing I'm gonna try is the imperial dry lube. If that doesn't work I'll probably try some different brass. I annealed some norma brass last fall on an Annealeez and it done the same thing....I just wrote it off as being an inconsistent flame temp. It possibly was the brass idk. I'll change 1 thing at a time til i get it right. Thanks guys!

 

[_Raining]

Annealing helps with consistency from one load to the next. Changing anything with a rifle or load can help, hurt, or seemingly make no difference. Consistently worse is a possibility with annealing. Just like how H4350 is less sensitive to temperature but that doesn't guarantee it will create better groups compared to a temp sensitive powder.

As other have said, you may be able to change things up elsewhere to get that precision back, but it isn't a guarantee.

 

[Fig]

 

[Bradu]

Do you load close to the lands with light neck tension or do you jump your bullets with heavy neck tension?

After starting annealing I ran into neck tension/bullet pull problems. I reduced neck tension but just could not get the consistency back. I even bought a hydraulic press with a pressure gauge and earned a PhD in brass massage science.

I stumbled upon an observation: I pulled some LC ammo and cleaned the shellac sealant out of the case necks with carb cleaner on a qtip. When I seated bullets into those necks they seated smoothly no matter what the neck tension was. Whereas with my annealed necks the bullets just did not want to seat right.

So I took the carb cleaner to my annealed necks and bam it worked. Carb cleaner leaves behind a thin film of lube on the surface. That was the trick.

It was then I started to pay close attention to factory ammo and noticed the cases and the bullets are waxed. The wax acts as a lubricant and helps with bullet seating and cold welding prevention.

But imperial dry lube is easier to apply and actually works better.

Most of my ammo is .015-.020" off the lands but some of my Hornady bullets are .060-.070" off the lands. I shoot for .002" neck tension on almost all of my ammo.

 

[Archwarder]

Thanks for all the responses. 1st thing I'm gonna try is the imperial dry lube. If that doesn't work I'll probably try some different brass. I annealed some norma brass last fall on an Annealeez and it done the same thing....I just wrote it off as being an inconsistent flame temp. It possibly was the brass idk. I'll change 1 thing at a time til i get it right. Thanks guys!

LikeI said above. Adjust your die accordingly.

This is from the FAQ section of the AMP website:


Do I need to adjust my sizing die?
If you are full length resizing or shoulder bumping you should check your die adjustment. After annealing with AMP you will have zero spring back, and you may need to back your die out a fraction from what you have been using when resizing unannealed brass. If you anneal each reload as we recommend, you will get extremely repeatable and consistent sizing. For the same reason, if you are using a bushing die you may need to check the sized neck diameter. Zero spring back can mean that less sizing is necessary.
---------------

I would try this before adjusting anything else.

 

[MikeMcCasland]

I had this same problem when I first got my AMP and started annealing some 6.5CM Alpha brass. I ultimately had to play with seating depth a bit to get it shooting again. Wasn't a problem on any other cartridges I loaded for.

On a related note, you didn't start shooting a different lot of bullets or something like that at the same time, did you?

 

[lance2121]

I had this same problem when I first got my AMP and started annealing some 6.5CM Alpha brass. I ultimately had to play with seating depth a bit to get it shooting again. Wasn't a problem on any other cartridges I loaded for.

On a related note, you didn't start shooting a different lot of bullets or something like that at the same time, did you?

Nope...same lot.

 

[riffraff]

Lots of good ideas above about lube, etc. The AMP annealing is great, although it seems to over anneal my .260 Rem Lapua brass a bit, giving me pretty low seating pressures with my arbor press (25-35#). I have modified my Aztec setting to use the lowest value of the 'sacrificial' cases (had values from 169 to 171, so I use 169) and then I use the 'minus' button to -3 to reduce the amount of annealing. This has returned me to pretty consistent seating pressures of ~ 40-45 pounds. YMMV, but one more technique you could put in your bag of tricks. Another of our shooters here had a similar experience with the Aztec setting being a little too much... interested to hear if anyone else has had this issue.

 

[kthomas]

The "Scott Satterlee" method isn't a good statistical analysis to find a node. I've come to this conclusion after a few years of reloading for precision rifle, many of them using the "Scott Satterlee" method. I use to buy into that method (hey, how doesn't like a faster and easier way to do things?). But I've come to the conclusion that it isn't the best method for finding the "node" for your loads. I don't think a single one of my dialed in low SD loads would have ever been found in a "node" produced by the "Scott Satterlee" method.

I use a ladder to test velocities and pressure signs. It's basically irrelevant for finding nodes. Once I have an idea of what my velocities are for each charge, I'll load up groups of 5 rounds for each charge I want to test. I'll shoot those groups, and from that I'll have a better idea of which charges will produce a more consistent velocity. 5 rounds of a charge will provide a much better statistical analysis than 1-2 rounds.

For example, for my 6BRA, using the "Scott Satterlee" method, my so called "node" loads end up with SD's of 7-8+ (5 shots). Using the method I describe above, my SD's are 2-3 (5 shots). Same story with my .300NM. And my many barrels of 6.5 Creedmoor.

Before blaming the AMP, I would use a better method than the "Scott Satterlee" method for finding a good load. I use an AMP for all my reloading, and I love that machine. All my loads have SD's of 5 or less (this is over 10+ rounds).

If you don't believe me, try it. My eyes started to open up when I started to shoot two ladders side by side, and get different results. The nodes would be different between every ladder, and I started to realize the "node" information from this method was garbage. Any of my statistic teachers would have called me an idiot if they found out that previously I used a ladder with only 1-2 rounds to find a velocity node.

 

[antithesis]

The "Scott Satterlee" method isn't a good statistical analysis to find a node. I've come to this conclusion after a few years of reloading for precision rifle, many of them using the "Scott Satterlee" method. I use to buy into that method (hey, how doesn't like a faster and easier way to do things?). But I've come to the conclusion that it isn't the best method for finding the "node" for your loads. I don't think a single one of my dialed in low SD loads would have ever been found in a "node" produced by the "Scott Satterlee" method.

I use a ladder to test velocities and pressure signs. It's basically irrelevant for finding nodes. Once I have an idea of what my velocities are for each charge, I'll load up groups of 5 rounds for each charge I want to test. I'll shoot those groups, and from that I'll have a better idea of which charges will produce a more consistent velocity. 5 rounds of a charge will provide a much better statistical analysis than 1-2 rounds.

For example, for my 6BRA, using the "Scott Satterlee" method, my so called "node" loads end up with SD's of 7-8+ (5 shots). Using the method I describe above, my SD's are 2-3 (5 shots). Same story with my .300NM. And my many barrels of 6.5 Creedmoor.

Before blaming the AMP, I would use a better method than the "Scott Satterlee" method for finding a good load. I use an AMP for all my reloading, and I love that machine. All my loads have SD's of 5 or less (this is over 10+ rounds).

If you don't believe me, try it. My eyes started to open up when I started to shoot two ladders side by side, and get different results. The nodes would be different between every ladder, and I started to realize the "node" information from this method was garbage. Any of my statistic teachers would have called me an idiot if they found out that previously I used a ladder with only 1-2 rounds to find a velocity node.

I agree on the 5 round minimum. I charge in 0.2 increments, 5 shot groups and dump the Labradar data. I find the intersects of low SD's and climbing velocities, then I drop to 0.1 increments around those intersects to double check the data and find the best groups.

 

[NamibHunter]

I realize this is an old thread.

Had a similar experience with the AMP Mark ii. Fixed it recently by adjusting the FL die, brushing the oxide out of the inside of the necks with a nylon brush (or tumbling for fairly long periods (5 hours) post annealing if i have enough time), and applying dry lube on the bullets before seating. Seating force recovered, speed went back to a similar value as before, SD went back to the 7-9 fps range, and group size is back at 0.35” for a five shot group at 100. Often see 1-1.5” three shot groups at 300, and vertical is good engain.

Main cause is a much higher coefficient of friction inside the neck (post annealing) due to an oxide layer forming, and that causes inconsistent bullet grip. The secondly effect is a softer shoulder and less springback, so FL die bumps the shoulder back too much, and changes case volume. Can move you outside of the speed node. Easy to fix once you know what to do.

[BTW: The company warns against using steel wool in the reloading process, steel wires end up inside the machine, and makes trouble. Either tumble or use a nylon brush.]