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AMP Press ... my first attempt

rustyinbend

GySgt USMC 1976-1992
Full Member
Minuteman
  • Dec 9, 2018
    3,178
    3,477
    Bend, Oregon
    I usually make 23 rounds to test/verify a proposed load ... 3 to foul/warm the barrel, and then 20 for "score" to test velocity, groups, SD, etc. Did that with 300-Norma cartridges to get my first experience with this expensive new toy. My primary reasons for getting the AMP Press were (a) to understand/verify/adjust my seating force, and (b) to cull out anomalies so that I could improve my results. My very first 23-cartridge attempt is pasted below, and by coincidence (or luck), the three I should use as "barrel warmers" are completely obvious. This thing might be the coolest gadget "ever". MUCH more to learn, but pretty friggin' impressed with my very first session, and how it aligned with my reasons for buying it.

    1669510111479.png
     
    I’ll look forward to the head scratching thread when you finally shoot the outliers for score, and find they go right into the group and velocities are inside your ES.

    Some of them might fall inside the normal ES, as is the case with any grouping of shots, but I did a fair amount of testing on this and there is a correlation between seating force SD/ES and velocity SD/ES.
     
    I haven't seen that yet with mine.

    This is the thread with the measurements:

     
    I’ll look forward to the head scratching thread when you finally shoot the outliers for score, and find they go right into the group and velocities are inside your ES.
    We shall see. Are you one of those people that would rather "not know"? I believe the thing that's the most fun about this hobby ... is the quest. The search for the unobtainable "perfect load". I most enjoy the investigative part of the hobby ... hypothesize, test, analyze, adjust ... rinse and repeat. And I especially enjoy the "cool tools" that enable deeper inspection (like this AMP Press). That's just how I roll.

    If those three outliers shoot exactly the same as the core 20 that measured together (and they very well may) ... then that answers a question, and poses a few others.
     
    IMO finding out what doesn't matter is as important as finding out what does.
    I 100% agree ... but the key to that strategy is knowing the entering arguments into the equation so that you have data to make your decisions about what works and what doesn't. Stated differently, you can't know it doesn't matter, until you know exactly what you did.
     
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    We shall see. Are you one of those people that would rather "not know"? I believe the thing that's the most fun about this hobby ... is the quest. The search for the unobtainable "perfect load". I most enjoy the investigative part of the hobby ... hypothesize, test, analyze, adjust ... rinse and repeat. And I especially enjoy the "cool tools" that enable deeper inspection (like this AMP Press). That's just how I roll.

    If those three outliers shoot exactly the same as the core 20 that measured together (and they very well may) ... then that answers a question, and poses a few others.
    It is a cool tool, I’m just not convinced at this point that theres a benefit in “knowing”, and I dont want to tinker for the sake of tinkering. Shooting is way more important to me.
     
    interesting device. I wonder if you left the primer out could you flip the die over and with a rod inserted through the flash hole measure the force needed to push the bullet back out? curious how that relates to the seating force.
     
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    We shall see. Are you one of those people that would rather "not know"? I believe the thing that's the most fun about this hobby ... is the quest. The search for the unobtainable "perfect load". I most enjoy the investigative part of the hobby ... hypothesize, test, analyze, adjust ... rinse and repeat. And I especially enjoy the "cool tools" that enable deeper inspection (like this AMP Press). That's just how I roll.

    If those three outliers shoot exactly the same as the core 20 that measured together (and they very well may) ... then that answers a question, and poses a few others.
    So when you shoot those 3 outliers and find out they don't shoot any different ( as many people have tested and shown already) then all you'll know is that you have an expensive paperweight.
     
    I love my amp, remember, it’s a diagnostic tool, just like a concentricity gauge.

    Will it make better ammo?

    probably not, but it’s nice to have a data log and reference for future rounds, you’ll be able to clearly see if something got messed up, which will give you confidence that you did everything right in the reloading room.

    Confidence in your ammo/gear is half the battle IMO
     
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    My handloads since using the AMP Press get consistently better SD's ... with my high single-digit SD's going to mid-single-digits. That, and the ability to cull the outliers, along with tighter COAL's, makes this a good value for me. I'm definitely happy with it. Anybody that doesn't believe, or doesn't agree ... has the absolute right to NOT buy one, and keep "pulling that lever".

    It always confuses me why people that don't have and don't want something ... are annoyed when someone else has it and likes it.
     
    My handloads since using the AMP Press get consistently better SD's ... with my high single-digit SD's going to mid-single-digits. That, and the ability to cull the outliers, along with tighter COAL's, makes this a good value for me. I'm definitely happy with it. Anybody that doesn't believe, or doesn't agree ... has the absolute right to NOT buy one, and keep "pulling that lever".

    It always confuses me why people that don't have and don't want something ... are annoyed when someone else has it and likes it.
    Have you tried measuring the culls or torn some down to try and find out why they were different?
     
    I'm personally curious as to what decisions are derived as a reloader as a result of this information.

    - What is your personal threshold for "good" or "bad" ammo according to the seating force metrics? Is there a specific seating force metric you are constantly trying to achieve?

    - For the most part it's nearly impossible to tell because all of the graphed lines are the same color - but it likes like there are potentially 3 specific force spikes on some of them. Are the specimens with the early high force spikes the same as the middle and ending spikes? Or can one projectile while being seated demonstrate an early spike but average seating force the rest of the way and vice versa? It's a shame there's no way to really delineate the specific rounds from that graph, it's impossible to read except for extreme outliers.

    - Adding to the above, what is worse for performance? An early spike in seating force? A middle spike? Or an ending spike? It looks like at least one of the outliers in that graph with an ending seating force spike looked pretty normal all the way through until the last spike, which means there was another round that had a middle spike in seating force.

    - What are done with the outliers? Have you consistently checked the outliers through chrono and/or group shooting to see if they perform as outliers as well? Or is the seating force graph mostly academic?

    - Have you been able to determine what is the cause of outliers as seen on the seating depth force graph? Is it caused by user error? Is it an error in one of your processes? An error in your equipment? Are you able to predict know what will cause an outlier, and as a result have you improved your processes and/or equipment? Or are outliers more or less the same, but you just "cull" them?

    - What has changed as a result of having this new information available to you? Has your process changed? Specific equipment has been replaced as a result? Are you utilizing new or different products such as neck lubes? Now that you have access to this data, have you intentionally tested different equipment and/or processes to optimize bullet seating force?

    Data is really cool, but what's more interesting is what is done as a result of having this data. I'm actually really curious what has changed for you as a reloader as a result of having this information.
     
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    "always confuses me why people that don't have and don't want something ... are annoyed when someone else has it and likes it "

    Actually I do have one and have tested with it for over a year.
    My point is, you can not tell us that your outliers shoot any different than the rest of the group. You have not even tested for that. So to infer that doing so has lowered your SD is horse shit. From the ones I have looked at, the outliers do not mean that they will consistently vary in velocity or impact on target.
    So let's move on to your next claim about tighter COALs. How exactly does the PRESS give you tighter coals? First, what exactly does that mean to you and what are you measuring and how has the Press shown you that your coals have not been tight.
     
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    "always confuses me why people that don't have and don't want something ... are annoyed when someone else has it and likes it "

    Actually I do have one and have tested with it for over a year.
    My point is, you can not tell us that your outliers shoot any different than the rest of the group. You have not even tested for that. So to infer that doing so has lowered your SD is horse shit. From the ones I have looked at, the outliers do not mean that they will consistently vary in velocity or impact on target.
    So let's move on to your next claim about tighter COALs. How exactly does the PRESS give you tighter coals? First, what exactly does that mean to you and what are you measuring and how has the Press shown you that your coals have not been tight.
    Wow ... I definitely hit a nerve, and I apologize for that. Very briefly ...

    1. Before my AMP Press, I was getting SD's in the 9-11 range (handloading 300-WM, 300-PRC, 300-NM, and 338-LM). After, I'm getting in the 5-7 range. I graph every shot using a Labradar and I can tell you it's true. Probably because before, my neck tension was "huge" and I never even knew it until I used first an Amber Press, and then the AMP Press to get it back on a chart and into the 30-60-lbs range. I realized from this that trying to "feel" neck tension on a standard press is literally not possible. The AMP Press gave me the ability to tune my bushings and mandrels to optimize and standardize neck tension.

    2. My outliers from seating make great barrel warmers, and the tightly grouped cartridges on my AMP Press make me "feel" like I'm giving myself my best chance for the best possible results. Should I test? Absolutely. Have I gotten around to it yet? Nope. It's on the To-Do List ... I have no idea what, if anything, it reveals. You postulate that it will reveal nothing. I accept your results and thank you for sharing them.

    3. I used to seat with Redding Competition Seating Micrometer Dies ... and even with that great equipment, I struggled to get BTO and COAL's to less than a few thousandths. Like on my 338-LM cartridges with a target of 2.777, I'd vary between a BTO of 2.765 and 2.785 no matter how precise I tried to be. I've noticed with the LE Wilson inline dies and my AMP Press, when I set up the die and lock it in at 2.777 ... every round is spot on with almost no variance. Is that the die, or is that the press? Not sure, I just know that I get almost no variance now with this combination.

    So ... slightly better SD's, ability to cull outliers, and less variance in BTO/COAL ... are the reasons I like my AMP Press, and will keep using it.

    Oh ... I forgot #4:

    4. I'm a gadget guy, this is a wicked cool gadget, and I talked my wife into letting me get it.

    Hope that answers those questions. Are you unhappy with your AMP Press? It sounds like it but I can't tell for sure. If you are happy with it, what do you like about it?
     
    So as a follow-up ... and for those of you that were looking for hard data ... I finally had a chance at the range yesterday to directly compare identical loads, with the ONLY difference being Group-A seated the bullet using a Redding Competition Micrometer Seating Die on a standard press (Redding Big-Boss II), and Group-B used the LE Wilson Inline Die on the AMP Press. All 19 rounds (two groups of 10 ... but one in Group-B didn't register on my Labradar) were prepared as follows:
    • Rifle: Barrett MRAD 338-LM
    • Case: Lapua 1x (Annealed)
    • Powder: H1000 92.9 gn
    • Shell Holder: .004
    • Bushing: SAC .365
    • Mandrel: .338
    • Seat: 2.777 BTO
    Group-A (Redding Press) SD: 14.5
    Group-B (AMP Press) SD: 5.35


    Graphs are below. This actually surprised me ... and I'd be lying if I said I understood why identically prepared cartridges built at exactly the same time, varied so much in Standard Deviation ... but the data is what it is. I'll do some more testing on other calibers over the next few weeks to see if this repeats with other size cartridges. BTW ... everything at 100-yards grouped just fine in both categories.

    For now ... I gotta say, I'm pretty friggin' happy with my Inline Dies and AMP Press, and I continue to believe it improves my SD's. Still TBD is whether or not that translates to better accuracy at long distances. I also need to do the "Outliers" test discussed earlier in this thread.

    OK ... I'm totally ready to be told all the things I'm doing wrong here ... so ... BRING IT !!! :LOL:

    1685025739368.png


    1685025770143.png
     
    That's pretty interesting.

    I'm surprised a press would make that much difference. Have your reloads with the Redding press always been around that high of SD/ES?

    Also, have you tested any of your "culls" over a chrono yet to see if the seating force translates directly into performance?
     
    That's pretty interesting.

    I'm surprised a press would make that much difference. Have your reloads with the Redding press always been around that high of SD/ES?

    Also, have you tested any of your "culls" over a chrono yet to see if the seating force translates directly into performance?
    My 338-LM loads on the standard press have always been mid-to-low teens, until now. My handloads with other calibers (300-WM, 300-PRC, 300-NM) have gotten to high single digits (8.0-ish), but are now consistently in the mid-single-digits (5.0-ish). That said, I've never had a 338-LM test in single digits like this one. No "cull testing" yet ... that's next. I usually don't arm the Labradar until the testing rounds start down-range.
     
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    When you seat with your Redding press, do you find that you have inconsistent base to ogive measurements? Does the AMP produce more consistent results by that metric?

    And for that test, was all the brass sized by the same press?
     
    Yes ... I don't get tight tolerances seating on my standard press no matter how hard I try.
    Yes ... I get BTO's that are way more precise and consistent on the AMP Press.
    Yes ... All the brass was sized by the same press using a Redding Type-S FL Bushing Die.
     
    Yes ... I don't get tight tolerances seating on my standard press no matter how hard I try.
    Yes ... I get BTO's that are way more precise and consistent on the AMP Press.
    Yes ... All the brass was sized by the same press using a Redding Type-S FL Bushing Die.

    Are you using the same Redding press for sizing the brass?

    If so, are your shoulder bumps inconsistent as well?
     
    But you do realize in this test that the AMP press really has nothing to do with your observed improvements. You had an easily identifiable issue with your load process ( which even you said you were aware of). You switched to a new method of seating, Wilson in line dies, which you say, solved the problem (and is understandable). So what did the AMP press contribute? In reality, you could have used Wilson dies and an arbor press to fix the problem ( or just better screw in dies).
    Also in this test, did you use lighter neck tension that you mentioned before? If so, which was it, better seating dies, less tension or both? And again, what did the AMP press contribute? While it may have shown your seating pressure to be relatively high, most people can feel, particularly with a Wilson die, that kind of too high pressure, or do the the math, maybe .007 is too much and I should try .002 - .003 tension, and then test that. Again, no AMP required. Another example would be , guys on my F Open team use anywhere from .0015 to .005 neck tension because they have tested that and determined which neck tension gives them the best results on paper. Again, no AMP required. And the trace results are different but the scores say each work just fine.
    I'm not the guy trying to pick on you, in fact I'm pretty impressed with your 338 SD's- is that a 250 gr bullet?, I'm just the guy asking the questions bc many people have been down this road and are still scratching their heads as to what benefits the press brings.
     
    I am using the same press for sizing.
    Shoulder bumps are perfect ... very consistent.
    And I trim with a Henderson, so all good there.
    Don't you want to know my favorite color? :ROFLMAO:
    (Purple)

    :ROFLMAO:

    Just trying to figure out the consistency issues.

    Interesting that the Redding press leads to inconsistencies in bullet seating depths, but that same press doesn't have an issue with consistencies with shoulder bumps.

    I just noticed now (should've noticed earlier) - but you are using different seating dies with the different presses. So you have two different variables at play and aren't isolated. Is the seating consistency due to the Redding press (maybe? Maybe not - given that shoulder bumps are consistent). Or is the seating depth inconsistencies due to the Redding die? Or perhaps its a compatibility/tolerance issue or procedural issue with specific equipment setups.

    The only real way of finding out if its the press or the die is to isolate one of those variables and shoot some more test groups. Perform the same test, loading groups with the Redding die + Redding press and compare groups loaded with the AMP press + Redding die. If you wanted to go further, you can do the same test and compare, but with the Wilson seating die used in both presses.
     
    But you do realize in this test that the AMP press really has nothing to do with your observed improvements. You had an easily identifiable issue with your load process ( which even you said you were aware of). You switched to a new method of seating, Wilson in line dies, which you say, solved the problem (and is understandable). So what did the AMP press contribute? In reality, you could have used Wilson dies and an arbor press to fix the problem ( or just better screw in dies).
    Also in this test, did you use lighter neck tension that you mentioned before? If so, which was it, better seating dies, less tension or both? And again, what did the AMP press contribute? While it may have shown your seating pressure to be relatively high, most people can feel, particularly with a Wilson die, that kind of too high pressure, or do the the math, maybe .007 is too much and I should try .002 - .003 tension, and then test that. Again, no AMP required. Another example would be , guys on my F Open team use anywhere from .0015 to .005 neck tension because they have tested that and determined which neck tension gives them the best results on paper. Again, no AMP required. And the trace results are different but the scores say each work just fine.
    I'm not the guy trying to pick on you, in fact I'm pretty impressed with your 338 SD's- is that a 250 gr bullet?, I'm just the guy asking the questions bc many people have been down this road and are still scratching their heads as to what benefits the press brings.
    Good observations ... I'll do this sequentially:
    1. I switched to the Inline dies "because" they were required by the Arbor and AMP Press. Not because of any perceived issue. I didn't know what I didn't know.
    2. I got an Arbor Press and it started my process of learning about my actual neck tension.
    3. Went the Arbor Press to the AMP Press to ease interpolation and produce actionable data sets.
    4. Arbor Press was good, but not useful for deeper analysis and comparisons. Excellent for snap-shots of neck tension.
    5. Not sure about the neck tension question. I used identically sized cases with the same bushing and mandrel and internal neck-lube (Neolube #2).
    6. I admit to convoluting "neck tension" and "seating force". But the two are tightly related, at least as far as I'm concerned, in that the offspring of neck tension ... is seating force.
    7. Yes ... bullet was a 250gn Berger Hybrid OTM Tactical.
    8. Your argument that testing all this without the AMP Press is possible is a very valid argument. That said, I believe the AMP Press repeatable pressure, data gathering, analysis tools, and visual representations make the whole process easier.
    9. Did I mention I'm a "Gadget Guy" and this is a wicked cool gadget? (Oh, right ... I did.)
     
    :ROFLMAO:

    Just trying to figure out the consistency issues.

    Interesting that the Redding press leads to inconsistencies in bullet seating depths, but that same press doesn't have an issue with consistencies with shoulder bumps.

    I just noticed now (should've noticed earlier) - but you are using different seating dies with the different presses. So you have two different variables at play and aren't isolated. Is the seating consistency due to the Redding press (maybe? Maybe not - given that shoulder bumps are consistent). Or is the seating depth inconsistencies due to the Redding die? Or perhaps its a compatibility/tolerance issue or procedural issue with specific equipment setups.

    The only real way of finding out if its the press or the die is to isolate one of those variables and shoot some more test groups. Perform the same test, loading groups with the Redding die + Redding press and compare groups loaded with the AMP press + Redding die. If you wanted to go further, you can do the same test and compare, but with the Wilson seating die used in both presses.
    I've always gotten tight shoulder bump measurement, and while the seating BTO's aren't quite as tight, they're pretty close. I think blaming the press is a bit of a red herring. I get the die argument (press to inline), and that's valid. But I can only test what I have, and this was press-based and inline-based comparison. I mean, it's not like I'm gonna buy another press and start press-testing for you guys. I'm getting terrific results from the Inline Dies and AMP Press combination, and I'm kind of to the point where I don't care which one has more impact on those results.
     
    I've always gotten tight shoulder bump measurement, and while the seating BTO's aren't quite as tight, they're pretty close. I think blaming the press is a bit of a red herring. I get the die argument (press to inline), and that's valid. But I can only test what I have, and this was press-based and inline-based comparison. I mean, it's not like I'm gonna buy another press and start press-testing for you guys. I'm getting terrific results from the Inline Dies and AMP Press combination, and I'm kind of to the point where I don't care which one has more impact on those results.

    Gotcha.

    I certainly don't expect you or anyone else here to purchase presses to test. I'm not familiar with the AMP press, I just assumed that it could use the same dies as your Redding press (and vice versa) - but that appears to not be the case. That's my own ignorance on the specific equipment in question here.

    I'm glad for you that this combination of equipment is producing better results for you. I do feel like it's a big miss that we aren't using any of the data that's available from this AMP press to make data driven decisions and analysis. So far it seems like the combination of new equipment "works" and that's about the extent of things thus far, and little is being done with the actual data to further understand and improve things.
     
    Gotcha.

    I certainly don't expect you or anyone else here to purchase presses to test. I'm not familiar with the AMP press, I just assumed that it could use the same dies as your Redding press (and vice versa) - but that appears to not be the case. That's my own ignorance on the specific equipment in question here.

    I'm glad for you that this combination of equipment is producing better results for you. I do feel like it's a big miss that we aren't using any of the data that's available from this AMP press to make data driven decisions and analysis. So far it seems like the combination of new equipment "works" and that's about the extent of things thus far, and little is being done with the actual data to further understand and improve things.
    There's a whopping big difference between the AMP Press and a standard manual press.

     
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    It would be interesting to see F-Class John or Cortina test between a regular press, arbor press, auto-driven press and the AMP. I know Cortina does have all four types on hand.
     
    I didn't want to bring it up bc I don't totally rely on guys like Cortina and FClass John ( you should always test for yourself) but you should watch F Class John's video/comments on using the AMP press. It's a lot better to see his testing/ results than listen to my rants. Pay attention to the culling portion.
     
    Once you finish your culling test, you will want to move onto neck lube or not. The guys at AMP say the best trace profiles are no lube and brush twice, just use the carbon in the neck. Personally I find using Neo gives a nicer trace pattern. But it doesn't give better results in all cases. It's good for some purposes but not for others.
    And this is the point, you can manipulate many things in the reloading process to change the AMP trace profile and make it look prettier/ different but it does not mean the results on paper will be better. You have to do the reverse, test your reloading process and determine what works best for you. Then run a trace profile and keep it as a visual/ comparison for the next time you load that exact same load the exact same way because it might show an error you made in your reloading process. The press will not tell you how to make better loads.
     
    The press will not tell you how to make better loads.

    For the most part, I look at the AMP press similarly to how I look at the AMP annealer. You can achieve similar results using other methods, but the AMP gear makes it easier to do so. The AMP press goes a little further, however. It facilitates recording the data and giving a more full picture of what's going on. I get macro level force data with my arbor press - the AMP takes it down to the micro level. What impact does that have? Unknown until someone gives me an AMP press so I can go to town with it :)
     
    For the most part, I look at the AMP press similarly to how I look at the AMP annealer. You can achieve similar results using other methods, but the AMP gear makes it easier to do so. The AMP press goes a little further, however. It facilitates recording the data and giving a more full picture of what's going on. I get macro level force data with my arbor press - the AMP takes it down to the micro level. What impact does that have? Unknown until someone gives me an AMP press so I can go to town with it :)
    Wow ... I had to "buy" mine. I didn't know someone was "giving" them away.
     
    Does an inline fir/arbor press combo help concentricity?

    Intuitively, I would say yes. Fewer moving parts and less opportunity for error. I have not, however, tested such - especially as I have not had standard seating dies for quite some time. With that said, however, I am getting a new custom arbor style seating die made for my 37XC. I am currently using a standard seating die as that's all that is available. Hopefully my new seater arrives next week - my most expensive die... ever...