You really have to wonder what the M40 would have been had Winchester not screwed up the Model 70 in 1964. Do you think the Marine Corps would have based the M40 on the model 70 instead of the Remington 700? Deep thoughts over a glass of Laphroig Quarter Cask......
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An interesting M40 thought.....
- Thread starter Mossyrock
- Start date
I would imagine so. The M70 provided a more stable platform for bedding and from some reports Ive read they had issues with M40s needing maintenance quite a bit due to bedding during Vietnam. These are mostly secondhand though so take it for what its worth.
The Winchester M70 was never officially adopted as a field weapon. It was not a custom shop weapon, but just over-the-counter arms.
- With the introduction of the 7.62 NATO round, all current M70 would need replaced.
- There was 3 'safety' types, pre-war, transition, and late, not interchangeable.
- M70 trigger is not adjustable
- Remington 700-40X: Already available in 7.62/.308 in short action
- Easier to bed
The MTU did some tests when an official sniper rifle platform was deemed necessary, and the Remington 700-40X won. The combination of the 700-40X and the Redfield scope was superior at every level. Based on the above facts, even if Winchester had not change to a push-feed action with wimpy extractor, the Remington/Redfield system would have won anyway.
The M40 would have been a Rem 700 no matter what.
Its actually the other way around... As per MTU official test results:
Winchester, Model 70
This rifle built on an action
designed for .30-06
cartridge. Magazine
blocked to accept shorter
7.62mm cartridge. Trigger
not adjustable. Somewhat
difficult to bed.
Remington, Model 700-40X
This rifle built on an action
designed for the 7.62mm
cartridge. Trigger is
internally adjustable.
Relatively simple to bed.
- With the introduction of the 7.62 NATO round, all current M70 would need replaced.
- There was 3 'safety' types, pre-war, transition, and late, not interchangeable.
- M70 trigger is not adjustable
- Remington 700-40X: Already available in 7.62/.308 in short action
- Easier to bed
The MTU did some tests when an official sniper rifle platform was deemed necessary, and the Remington 700-40X won. The combination of the 700-40X and the Redfield scope was superior at every level. Based on the above facts, even if Winchester had not change to a push-feed action with wimpy extractor, the Remington/Redfield system would have won anyway.
The M40 would have been a Rem 700 no matter what.
Its actually the other way around... As per MTU official test results:
Winchester, Model 70
This rifle built on an action
designed for .30-06
cartridge. Magazine
blocked to accept shorter
7.62mm cartridge. Trigger
not adjustable. Somewhat
difficult to bed.
Remington, Model 700-40X
This rifle built on an action
designed for the 7.62mm
cartridge. Trigger is
internally adjustable.
Relatively simple to bed.
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I have no doubt that it was easier to bed. However, due to it being a round bottom vs the flat bottom of the M70, that bedding also wouldnt last as long. Again, this is not official info, just what Ive read from guys that were there(Vietnam). Also, you may know of Bart Bobbitt. Heres what he has to say on Remington 700s when chambered for rounds of .300 Wby Mag or larger:
"Of course it was my opinion. But it's based on facts from my own experience with round recivers as well as those from other top ranked competitive shooters.
When folks started using Rem. 7XX actions for belted magnums in long range matches back in the middle of the last century and conventional epoxy bedding was first used, they held zeros for a hundred or two shots, then worked loose from barrel torque. Rebedding was the solution. I learned this with my first epoxy bedding job on a Rem. 700 action thinking it was the greatest thing for accuracy on earth. Then I learned that the reason Win. 70 actions were preferred for competition with cartridges .308 Win. and bigger shooting bullets weighing more than 160 grains.
The US military rifle teams also had the same problems with their 30 caliber magnums used in long range matches. Their attempt at fixing it was to make 2-inch long recoil lugs for their Remmy actions. That didn't work either. They finally put a flat bottom/side sleeve on them and that fixed the issue. No problems ever existed with their Win. 70 receivers.
Someone finally decided that what the benchresters did with 22 and 24 caliber rounds in Remmy actions sleeving them with flat bottom/side aluminum sleeves. Finally, accuracy with a round receiver would remain constant for the life of the barrel.
Of course, if folks cannot see their 1/4 MOA at 100 yard accuracy at worst lessen by 50% (goes to 3/8 MOA) or 600 yard accuracy go from 1/2 to 3/4 MOA, shooting their stuff for a couple hundered shots, then they won't notice the epoxy bedding has gone to pot. To them, the cause, effect and fix I mention is considered rediculous. I've been there, done that but learned from others and was able to tell the difference.
Action stiffness, as well as barrel stiffness, has never been critical for accuracy. As long as the barreled action behaves the same way for each shot, best accuracy is at hand. It's all about repeatability of movement of all the parts, not minimizing how much they move."
M98 mauser sleeved action project - Long Range Hunting Online Magazine
Correct me if Im wrong here. But I could also see this becoming an issue when youre talking about a R700 in 7.62x51 combined with rough handling. Most shooters may not pick it up, but it doesnt mean its not happening. I stand by my reasoning that a M70/Mauser/other flat bottom action is a more stable platform to bed on.
I hear you. And agree with above statements. But..
Dont forget that both weapons in combat environment, Winchester Model 70 and Remington M40, are battle sniper rifles, not benchrest shooters. Yes bedding improves accurary, but the requirement is to drop a human size target at 600y, which is far from being benchrest accuracy.
As per the Marine Corps definition of a sniper rifle, 1966:
“A target rifle is expected to put all of its shots into a very small group after some adjustments to the sight. The sniper’s rifle must put the first shot of any day into the same spot as the last shot of any other day. A free-floating barrel allows this with very few adjustments. A sniper gets no sighting-in shots, and he doesn’t intend to put ten shots into the same target.”
We can read that the Marine Corps was looking for repeatable, cold bore accurary. Bedding at this point, is considered a limited improvement in accuracy.
Here are the requirements for a new sniper rifle, and the reason why the Remington 700-40X won:
a. The cartridge to be used would be cal. 7.62mm.
b. Most targets would be presented at ranges less than 600 yards.
c. The telescopic sight must be capable of adjustment at ranges up to and including 1000 yards.
d. The rifle/scope/ammunition combination should be capable of shooting within two (2) minutes of angle.
e. The rifle/scope combination must be simple, sturdy and explainable with minimum amount of instruction.
f. Areas of probable use would present conditions of high humidity, requiring a well sealed scope.
Dont forget that both weapons in combat environment, Winchester Model 70 and Remington M40, are battle sniper rifles, not benchrest shooters. Yes bedding improves accurary, but the requirement is to drop a human size target at 600y, which is far from being benchrest accuracy.
As per the Marine Corps definition of a sniper rifle, 1966:
“A target rifle is expected to put all of its shots into a very small group after some adjustments to the sight. The sniper’s rifle must put the first shot of any day into the same spot as the last shot of any other day. A free-floating barrel allows this with very few adjustments. A sniper gets no sighting-in shots, and he doesn’t intend to put ten shots into the same target.”
We can read that the Marine Corps was looking for repeatable, cold bore accurary. Bedding at this point, is considered a limited improvement in accuracy.
Here are the requirements for a new sniper rifle, and the reason why the Remington 700-40X won:
a. The cartridge to be used would be cal. 7.62mm.
b. Most targets would be presented at ranges less than 600 yards.
c. The telescopic sight must be capable of adjustment at ranges up to and including 1000 yards.
d. The rifle/scope/ammunition combination should be capable of shooting within two (2) minutes of angle.
e. The rifle/scope combination must be simple, sturdy and explainable with minimum amount of instruction.
f. Areas of probable use would present conditions of high humidity, requiring a well sealed scope.
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The M70 was primarily rejected due to its complicated maintenance, I worked at Dakota Arms as a design engineer a long time ago and the Dakota '76 is just a really well made M70.
M70's suffer from what we called the trigger triangle. You do a trigger job then you need to refit the cocking piece because it is moved forward or rearward and won't be properly disengaged by the safety properly, then, after you rework the safety or the cocking piece, (by the way half the time this requires a new cocking piece or a safety lever) then you need to lift the bolt and have it cock on the up stroke w/o allowing the bolt to move rearward. If its right, you move on, if not its start over.
On a remington, you just replace the trigger assy, adjust it with 3 simple screws and your done.
Also, on the Whinny, Extractors need to be fit, this is a skill that must be learned and its perishable. The ejector also may need fitting.
Not on a Remington, I could teach everyone on the hide to change extractors and ejectors on a Remmy in about 20 min.
Remington's are easier to bed, period! less things to get bubbles under, less geometry to get stuck, mag well, easy, trigger mortis, easy no hidden corners.
Barrel fitting to Whinnies is a pain, the rear of the barrel need to be coned, then you need to time it, mark and cut an extractor groove.
Prior to 1964, Winchester was the largest custom gun builder in the world, what I mean was the parts were made so poorly they were all hand fit, this is NOT production!
Durring WW2, Winchester had a special set of blue prints that allowed them to make M1 Garand and M1 Carbine parts to a looser tolerance that any of the other manufacturers.
Now, all this being said, and don't start hating on me Winchester guys, the Winchester was a born of battle. Winchester made the M1914 and the M1917 rifles, then after the war they made the M54 which was a M1917 with the sight ears cut off and is the direct male line ancestor to the much cleaned up M70.
Not to mention, Carlos did a pretty good job with one. BUT, the Remmy is a simpler action to service and maintain.
M70's suffer from what we called the trigger triangle. You do a trigger job then you need to refit the cocking piece because it is moved forward or rearward and won't be properly disengaged by the safety properly, then, after you rework the safety or the cocking piece, (by the way half the time this requires a new cocking piece or a safety lever) then you need to lift the bolt and have it cock on the up stroke w/o allowing the bolt to move rearward. If its right, you move on, if not its start over.
On a remington, you just replace the trigger assy, adjust it with 3 simple screws and your done.
Also, on the Whinny, Extractors need to be fit, this is a skill that must be learned and its perishable. The ejector also may need fitting.
Not on a Remington, I could teach everyone on the hide to change extractors and ejectors on a Remmy in about 20 min.
Remington's are easier to bed, period! less things to get bubbles under, less geometry to get stuck, mag well, easy, trigger mortis, easy no hidden corners.
Barrel fitting to Whinnies is a pain, the rear of the barrel need to be coned, then you need to time it, mark and cut an extractor groove.
Prior to 1964, Winchester was the largest custom gun builder in the world, what I mean was the parts were made so poorly they were all hand fit, this is NOT production!
Durring WW2, Winchester had a special set of blue prints that allowed them to make M1 Garand and M1 Carbine parts to a looser tolerance that any of the other manufacturers.
Now, all this being said, and don't start hating on me Winchester guys, the Winchester was a born of battle. Winchester made the M1914 and the M1917 rifles, then after the war they made the M54 which was a M1917 with the sight ears cut off and is the direct male line ancestor to the much cleaned up M70.
Not to mention, Carlos did a pretty good job with one. BUT, the Remmy is a simpler action to service and maintain.
