An open letter to Match Directors and Competitors

[Hellbender]

I'm fairly new to this long range tactical sport, but have shot multiple other disciplines since the early 80's, mostly handgun. I enjoy this sport very much and want to see it continue to grow, and the technology that develops will save lives and help the men that really need it.

This letter concerns the Unknown Distance Matches I have shot and the sharing of information that occurs via text messaging and other means during the match.

IS it cheating, NO, not if the rules do not specifically state that fact. I believe any advantage should be taken by a competitor that is legal, and the rules or course of fire should be modified to make it fair for everyone.

The guys that have a lot of friends shooting in other stages that are sharing distances and other tactical info have a HUGE advantage.

At the last match, many of the competitors knew, before they even saw the stage, what targets to shoot and what the ranges were.

I went to one match and the Director stated that NO stage info could be shared, and I don't believe anyone cheated.

I think the courses of fire can be designed to minimize this, or it would be easy to just state that sharing of range and tactical info is prohibited, I believe the competitors would abide by the rules. If someone wants to cheat, no rule will stop them.

If it is a Spotter/Shooter team match, just state that they can comm. but not give any info to anyone else, even if they are on a larger team.

Please take this as constructive criticism, not "He didn't do very good and wants to have an excuse" whining. I'm NOT very good and have no delusions of grandeur.

 

[Short-bus]

Re: An open letter to Match Directors and Competitors

Now where did I put my popcorn?

Branden

 

[XTR]

Re: An open letter to Match Directors and Competitors

I've not shot competition since I was shooting USPSA/IPSC 20 yrs ago but if I was, and I ran into this it would discourage me from paying my entry fee at the next one.

I think the OP is right that if it's not prohibited it's not cheating, but I'd surely call it unsportsmanlike, and since this is not on a "2 way" range it is a sport. Then again sportsmaship seems to have died long ago anyway.

 

[LVshooter]

Re: An open letter to Match Directors and Competitors

I would say texting UKD info between squads would be cheating.

 

[NOMAD]

Re: An open letter to Match Directors and Competitors

I have my popcorn and beer as well.

As I would agree however noone is going to be collecting phones and people these days cant live without the phones and with people using ballistic programs on phones that is another issue as well.

Plus if a match director asks for your phone are you going to let them dig thru your phone!!! Or not have contact to work, family or your business all day. Doubtful

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: An open letter to Match Directors and Competitors

shakes head forlornly at ground.....

UKD is best left to matches geared for professionals, then such nonprofessional BS wouldn't happen.

I prefer COF's that are equally challenging to all shooters and like to make stages where the shooter needs to solve the problem and execute good shots.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: An open letter to Match Directors and Competitors

Cheating is the subversion of the rules' intent.

My approach to rules is..., the fewer the better.

I also believe that a rule that is easy to subvert is maybe not a bad rule, but probably a foolish one.

Rules that involve privileged knowledge are highly susceptible, if not completely vulnerable, to cheating; and therefore at least futile, if not completely foolish.

To me the question becomes whether or not one is willing to share their own advantage, and whether or not another is willing to trust one's judgement. And then there's issues like misinformation and information sabotage.

My view is, what happens happens. Things like shared knowledge are going to happen. I believe an astute approach to rules formulation takes this into account.

There's also the matter of enforcement. Do we want our match administrators to be become the thought police? I foresee much recrimination and bitterness, with heavy reliance on evidence and opinion.

This is not something that advances a sport.

Greg

 

[Guest]

Re: An open letter to Match Directors and Competitors

I'll be the odd guy out. I don't care who tells me the UKD is XXX, I'm going to range it myself.
Because,
(1) I trust myself,
(2) You think your best bud/s are going to cough up correct info so you can beat them?
(3) I've seen incorrect info passed at comp's between guys in code before, just to hose a stage or two for those with big ears and are believer's!

Only, trust yourself in comp's (unless it's a two or more man scoring gig)on anything you do. Why, because when it all goes to shit, someday you might have to stand on your own two feet for once, without any outside or electronic help. Skills or anything you cheat on might be the ones you really need down the road.

You learn nothing by cheating, no matter the venue. Plus in some circles if you are ever caught, getting banned from competing will be the least of your worries.

 

[Ratbert]

Re: An open letter to Match Directors and Competitors

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Cheating is the subversion of the rules' intent.

My approach to rules is..., the fewer the better.

I also belive that a rule that is easy to subvert is maybe not a bad rule, but probably a foolish one.

Rules that involve privileged knowledge are highly susceptible, if not completely vulnerable, to cheating; and therefore at least futile, if not completely foolish.

To me the question becomes whether or not one is willing to share their own advantage, and whether or not another is willing to trust one's judgement. And then there's issues like misinformation and information sabotage.

My view is, what happens happens. Things like shared knowledge are going to happen. I believe an astute approach to rules formulation takes this into account.

There's also the matter of enforcement. Do we want our match administrators to be become the thought police? I foresee much recrimination and bitterness, with heavy reliance on evidence and opinion.

This is not something that advances a sport.

</div></div>

Very much agree.

One thing a lot of guys coming over from more regulated sports like IPSC or Highpower don't seem to understand is that these matches are not fair and no one expects them to be. This is about finding out what you are capable of when asked to perform a given task. At most matches people share data, advice, and methods because in the end you still have to know how to make your rifle put a bullet onto the target and no one else can do that for you. If you don't want to share and be part of the group, fine. Perhaps you feel you'll learn more that way, I don't know. But I for one enjoy the camaraderie and would hate to transition to the IPSC or NRA world of range officers with micrometers and power factor calculators crawling the all over the competitors.

 

[gugubica]

Re: An open letter to Match Directors and Competitors

Agree completely.

The solution is rather easy though...don't have as many UKD stages or let competitors use LRFs. The match of which Hellbender speaks would have been just as challenging and probably more fun if that were the case.

If someone wants to run a historical match and force competitors to run without modern technology...cool, but I personnaly feel that having an LRF is more realistic. It would have been quicker and more fair. But, I understand that some people think them evil and it is the match directors call.

 

[Hellbender]

Re: An open letter to Match Directors and Competitors

I also want to make it clear I a NOT just discussing the Mammoth Match, as I have seen at another match, and heard from other people I trust implicitly, that this is common if not stated in the rules.

 

[Ratbert]

Re: An open letter to Match Directors and Competitors

At ASC it is encouraged.

I've never seen anyone refuse to give range or wind data when asked, and I've certainly never refused myself. In general anyone who actually relies on that info for making their shot isn't going to be threatening the leaders.

But I agree with gugubica, UKD doesn't really add a whole lot to most stages but can really bog down the flow of a match. And on especially long or small targets it can significantly penalize competitors who choose to use a 10x scope, which is no fairer than LRFs or sharing info or locking every competitor in their own cone of silence.

 

[Malibumick]

Re: An open letter to Match Directors and Competitors

I always have heard 2 heads are better than 1, etc.


Mick

 

[Ratbert]

Re: An open letter to Match Directors and Competitors

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mick265</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I always have heard 2 heads are better than 1, etc.
</div></div>

That's very dependent on the heads in question.

 

[Jaeger308]

Re: An open letter to Match Directors and Competitors

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ratbert[/quote</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Very much agree.

One thing a lot of guys coming over from more regulated sports like IPSC or Highpower don't seem to understand is that these matches are not fair and no one expects them to be. <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="color: #FF0000">This is about finding out what you are capable of when asked to perform a given task. At most matches people share data, advice, and methods because in the end you still have no know how to make your rifle put a bullet onto the target and no one else can do that for you</span>.</span> If you don't want to share and be part of the group, fine. Perhaps you feel you'll learn more that way, I don't know. But I for one enjoy the camaraderie and would hate to transition to the IPSC or NRA world of range officers with micrometers and power factor calculators crawling the all over the competitors.
</div></div>

+1 Ratbert

Somedays you are the shooter other days you are the range and wind bitch, especially in team events.

 

[TEAMSENDIT]

Re: An open letter to Match Directors and Competitors

sharing of data is going to happen there is no 2 ways around it. trusting it is up to you.

you have to think if 5 guys that are good buddies go to a match together and there are a 100 competitiors, if even one of them isn't shooting well that day and is out of the running odds are he will give his buddies his dopes on ukd and wind. its about being an honest competitor and having integrity (which there seems to be very little of these days).

it is a fine line wouldn't you rather your buddy win the match over some random guy you don't even know.

I have seen this happen in team events all the time. if you shoot as a 2 man team logic says shooter number 2 will not have any true ukd because the first shooter will have data to give him. in this case its not cheating its doing everything possible to get the mosts hits. they can't expect you to not communicate with your teammate.

rant done

 

[BOLTRIPPER]

Re: An open letter to Match Directors and Competitors

some around here have run into this hairball years ago at badlands.....

deal was if you start with the laser you run the whole comp with them....READ no mildot master,

conversely, if you milled then no lasers......

i always play the game ...if you got the technology, bring it and use it.

it was most always better to mill the targets,,,,,,cause Bobby and Steve have been to enough rodeos and hid lots of stuff in a partial fashion......and devised ways to defeat a laser,,,,,,the sun always shone brightly in them catfish ponds gone dry

 

[Lowlight]

Re: An open letter to Match Directors and Competitors

that is part of the problem, definition of what a match is...

Team Sport, Coffee Klatch, Group Think, if that is how it works, no problem, but then avoid scoring the shoot and simply let it be a training evolution where distances are determined by committee and those who are unsure can learn the proper way of doing things.

I think a match that has better than 90% UKD that turns into range by committee is a great learning experience but certainly no longer a match. Especially to those who are not in the top click.

Personally, based on my participation, I like the Sporting Rifle Match way of doing this, they give you a range card at each station, you have the ranges, odd that they are, and you simply shoot the targets. That is what happens when you visit other locations. Committee determines the range, you all shoot sharing data, and really, a step would be saved by simply handing out a range card. If you want to have one or two stations where the "individual" must range, great, it doesn't waste everyone's time, you either make it or break, then you can simply rotate the location during each of the following years events. A couple true UKD stages with the rest being based off range card. Most have them any ways.

I have also seen people work to produce a pre-determined outcome. Making sure a chosen shooter is deemed winner by letting that pre-determined shooter, always shoot last. It's not discouraged and frankly, good on them for working as a team. They chose their leader and he works towards that goal. But it does happen.

It's not good or bad, it just is... anyone else can do it, so I see it as being fair, maybe, but I wouldn't call it cheating because people agree to it, just not everyone.

No finger pointing, just observations based off my participation and travels.

It's a tough balancing act, people want to be pleasant and personable, so they don't stop any of these. Especially with sponsored shooters, they are vested in placing well because they have to report back, so sponsors want to see their shooter near the top of the list. Scores matter, so people will do what they can given the window of opportunity.

 

[Hellbender]

Re: An open letter to Match Directors and Competitors

Excellent observations LL, and you said a lot I didn't want to stir up with the sponsored shooters. I believe the good shooters, esp. the "top click" as you stated, would still be at the top anyway, maybe just not so far ahead, AND...a shooter without several buddies in other squads has almost no chance to place in the upper echelon. As just one or two hits in a match like this last one is HUGE when only 36 people (out of 120) hit more than 13 targets the entire time.

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: An open letter to Match Directors and Competitors

When the winners felt challenged and the greenest guy can't wait to come back you've had a good match.....

 

[michael_aos]

Re: An open letter to Match Directors and Competitors

I'm a newbie -- shooting matches since 2003.

Early-on, I was was told that there always has been and always will be information sharing between squads.
--

 

[Slickrick0999]

Re: An open letter to Match Directors and Competitors

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When the winners felt challenged and the greenest guy can't wait to come back you've had a good match..... </div></div>
+1, shot my first Unknown Distance Match last year. Got my butt kicked, but I am going back as well

 

[subgunr]

Re: An open letter to Match Directors and Competitors

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NOMAD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have my popcorn and beer as well.

....... Or not have contact to work, family or your business all day. Doubtful



</div></div>

I like this comment.. We have come so far as humans as to not be able to go 8-10 hrs,or a day, without using a phone.

ya< I took it outa context. I mean nothing bad to Nomad.
Its just funny...go all day and talk to no one on the phone. How many people would LOVE that every so often...??

 

[lvcatfish]

Re: An open letter to Match Directors and Competitors

The match director can not predict every level of stupidity that will be thrust upon them. Those that have never run a match might not appreciate this. The real question a competitor should ask themselves is do I have skill and integrity or don't I. I can appreciate using whatever you can get when life/death are at stake; but in a sanctioned competition based upon individual results I call this cheating. I've kept score at a lot of matches... how would all you competitors feel if I "adjusted" your score in an arbitrary or capricious fashion just because I could???

 

[Bear_308]

Re: An open letter to Match Directors and Competitors

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When the winners felt challenged and the greenest guy can't wait to come back you've had a good match.....</div></div>

Great words, Sobrbiker ... I agree with you wholeheartedly. Good matches are always very challenging ... the AZ TPRC is a great example of that.

How many folks out there have actually planned and run a match? Not nearly as many as those who have shot a match. But those who have planned and shot a match can certainly appreciate this thread ... a huge thanks goes out to the guys that organize and direct the big matches -- it's no small feat!

 

[LVshooter]

Re: An open letter to Match Directors and Competitors

I haven't been to a match where there is a rule that says you can't kick the shooter in the head when he is ready to take a shot. So does that mean I can? Same thing as far as I'm concerned. It's getting to where you would need a lawyer to write up the rules. Always someone trying beat the system.

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: An open letter to Match Directors and Competitors

I prefer it when a Match Director limits equipment and techniques with creative stage design.

I absolutely hate playing the "I know you wouldn't do it like this in real life....but" game.

If you want to take heavy bench rifles out of the game, have an offhand stage. If you want to reduce the "game" caliber advantage, then add weight to the intermediate range stages or short range precision stages. If you want to smack down the "gear queers" (and yes, I am one) then make them carry all their shit to the line under time and truck it with them for the entire match.

There are plenty of ways to reduce the effectiveness of rangefinders and other electronic means.

In this game lead on target is what matters. IMHO more rules will encourage "pushing" their limits and flirting with cheating. This isn't NASCAR.

However to directly answer the question, if it's an UNKNOWN distance stage and you do anything to give of get the range to targets outside of the intended method when your turn comes....in my opinion IT IS CHEATING. Unknown is called "unknown" because the data is not known when the stage starts. If it's "known" then it's not an "unknown" distance stage anymore...is it?

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: An open letter to Match Directors and Competitors

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: lvcatfish</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The match director can not predict every level of stupidity that will be thrust upon them. </div></div>
HA!!!

Thanks Bear-but we're "T<span style="font-weight: bold">P</span>RC", NCPPRC's is TBRC....

Kurt-very good point.

LWMC-I'm with you on all points. Thought must be given to match design to level the playing field. Not hard to do, just takes some thinking.

 

[Tribe]

Re: An open letter to Match Directors and Competitors

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I prefer it when a Match Director limits equipment and techniques with creative stage design.

I absolutely hate playing the "I know you wouldn't do it like this in real life....but" game.

If you want to take heavy bench rifles out of the game, have an offhand stage. If you want to reduce the "game" caliber advantage, then add weight to the intermediate range stages or short range precision stages. If you want to smack down the "gear queers" (and yes, I am one) then make them carry all their shit to the line under time and truck it with them for the entire match.

There are plenty of ways to reduce the effectiveness of rangefinders and other electronic means.

In this game lead on target is what matters. IMHO more rules will encourage "pushing" their limits and flirting with cheating. This isn't NASCAR.

However to directly answer the question, if it's an UNKNOWN distance stage and you do anything to give of get the range to targets outside of the intended method when your turn comes....in my opinion IT IS CHEATING. Unknown is called "unknown" because the data is not known when the stage starts. If it's "known" then it's not an "unknown" distance stage anymore...is it?</div></div>

+1 All of the above.

 

[NorCal Vu]

Re: An open letter to Match Directors and Competitors

Attention all shooters.

NorCal has a 10K retainer for a lawyer to be onsite to answer any COF questions. LOL.

Due to this cost...match fees for TBRC are now 500.00 per shooter.

From a MD point of view, I believe it is my job to write COFs, Rules, and Regs so that the competitor must shoot the match the way I have envisioned it. However, things do fall through the cracks.
I am a firm believer in the "intent of the rule and/or COF” principle. The problem with this is, everyone has a different opinion on what the “intent” is or should be.

From a competitor point of view, of course I would want every advantage I can to score better on a COF. I like to error on the side of safety by sticking to the intent of the rule/COF, than being labeled a gamer. Remember just because you can do something, doesn’t mean it’s the right thing to do.

I learned a valuable lesson last year at TBRC on a simple sitting COF stage.

10” plate @ 220 yards, 6 rounds in the sitting position, 60 second prep, 60 seconds to shoot. The intent of this stage was for the shooter to sling up and shoot it in a traditional “NRA” sitting position. “The idea of the sitting position is to get you over something you can’t shoot in the prone.” Quoted from a very well respected source.

Now I did not say NRA Sitting Position in the COF so here is what I got on the line….

COMPLETELY and 100% legal, but not by any means the intent of the COF.

Rifles were rested on the shooters lap and not even in the shooters shoulder.

I got caught slipping and learned a lesson. Simple solution brought up by other shooters at the match, a string that a shooter must shoot over. $2.00 solution.

The cat and mouse game will never end with MD/ROs and competitors......it is fun and frustrating at the same time.

 

[NorCal Vu]

Re: An open letter to Match Directors and Competitors

As for the cell phone deal, good luck.

We had a stage where I posted 15 faces, and the competitors had to remember the faces of 7 selected tangos.

I never seen so many camera phones come out that quick......LOL.

100% Legal as I never mentioned no electronic devices.

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: An open letter to Match Directors and Competitors

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Vu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We had a stage where I posted 15 faces, and the competitors had to remember the faces of 7 selected tangos.

I never seen so many camera phones come out that quick......LOL.
</div></div>

Nice...then again, often we have e-mailed each other DMV photos of a suspect. So sometimes the tech is actually used in the real world in a similar manner.

 

[badbot]

Re: An open letter to Match Directors and Competitors

what if the UKD targets were say white, bright blue, red and gold.
shooter on the line today you shoot..... blue.
next shooter today you shoot..... gold.
so your unlikely to get the same targets as the squads in front of you.

 

[poison123]

Re: An open letter to Match Directors and Competitors

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BadBot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">what if the UKD targets were say white, bright blue, red and gold.
shooter on the line today you shoot..... blue.
next shooter today you shoot..... gold.
so your unlikely to get the same targets as the squads in front of you. </div></div>

But wouldn't people then complain about target color?

 

[Willys46]

Re: An open letter to Match Directors and Competitors

The guy that serarchs out the unknow distances at a match is the same guy that cheats at golf!

If winning is that important to your self-esteem you need help. I'm competitive do not get me wrong, but winning is not worth my intergerity.

Our matches have one or two stages that the MD states absolutly no talking about the stage, if you do you will be DQed and ask to leave the range!

 

[JasonB]

Re: An open letter to Match Directors and Competitors

If you ask for information you are not supposed to know before shooting the COF then you are cheating.

If you over hear someone talk about something prior to your turn to shoot and decide to trust that info, you are either foolish or lucky.

If the MD doesnt care wether people share dope or wind calls with one another fine by me, i have asked for wind/dope from buddies and provided mine to them... but if the intent of a stage is in such that no one is supposed to have range data before the COF or the MD is specific in that this is an individual COF or match and you share info then you are cheating.

 

[kraigWY]

Re: An open letter to Match Directors and Competitors

I really don't care what happens, if it happens the same for everyone. If the data is transmitted to one person, it should be made available to others.

I just like to see everyone on the same sheet of music. A good example is matches I've attended where the targets were set up at randamed distances the day before the match. Then the people setting up the targets got their zeros at what was suppose to be unknown distances.

Gee guess who had the higher scores the day of the match. Thats one reason, since I've gotton my Dist Badge, I don't care where I place in any match.

I shoot against me, I shoot for fun, I have a heavy duty Model 70, 300 WM 1000 yard gun. Shoots dern good, but I get a lot more pleasure shooting a as issued M1 Garand at 1000 yards now days.

Guess I'm just too old to care anymore. But I'm having a lot more fun.

 

[J.Boyette]

Re: An open letter to Match Directors and Competitors

The cell phone texting.

If that is what you have to do to get a hit. You are a POS.

If you are that weak in mind, and integrity you need not show up.

I say this, stand on your own two feet. Help out the other shooters, share ideas and techniques and be a roll model. BUT do not cheat, and give up data that people need to figure out.

If I ever catch a person cheating at a Juniper Swamp Match I will send them home and band then for that years matches.

I do not play that game in life, or fun games such as matches.

John

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: An open letter to Match Directors and Competitors

JB, JB and Vu are spot on here.

If you want to do a real "snipery" match, use LE/mil scenarios, equipment and SHOOTERS. A little simulating of field condidions is fun, but most shooters like to shoot.

If most guys are like me, they prefer to shoot their money's worth after going through the cost of travelling to a match. The fieldcraft involved in UKD shooting is great, but should not be an area of contention.

I really enjoyesd the way NorCal did their ranging evolution in '09-off to the side, you get a scope and a notepad and calc or mildot master and a limited time to range some hard to find targets within 5% of actual distance. It wasn't a shooting stage, but was a great way to utilize space not available for active shooting.

If you are running targets in the .5-2moa size range, they will be hard enough to hit if you publish the distance that it will still be a challenge.


Unsportsmanlike conduct is bullshit, and not tolerated where I have any influence.

 

[paraman1]

Re: An open letter to Match Directors and Competitors

When we held our matches we forbade the sharing of knowledge but it was a honor thing . The other thing we did was have everyone sequestered at the club house so they could not watch the other teams shoot a stage and thus have the opportunity to screw it up in their own special way . It wasn't perfect but nothing ever will be .

As far as taking pictures with your cell phone , finding alternative shooting positions and the other gathering of intel that goes on I gotta say that I am usually pretty impressed by the resourcefulness of folks in the action shooting sports community when I see it . It is that kind of creative problem solving and fast thinking that operators need to complete their missions effectively and stay alive .

I am usually so far out of contention at any match I go to that I look at the whole experience as a learning opportunity combined with a meet and greet of like minded individuals . Getting wound up over what other people are doing just leads to me not having a good time .

 

[J.Boyette]

Re: An open letter to Match Directors and Competitors

Michael,

I am with you 100% resourcefulness is not cheating.

Learning intel in a match is not good. The idea is to keep a even playing field for score.

In combat, you steal, cheat, kill, and kill some more.

But thats not a game, its combat.

a game has rules due to the fact, people will always find away to by pass the rules to make it a non-even playing field.

So you got to be on your a game when running matches.

But thats the fun in it as a director.

The worst cheaters are guys from Bragg in Group or at the school house. I know this and its ok, its how they are trained and they should be that way. But I do not watch them like a hawk. I let them know up front how we roll. And its all cool once the rules are clear. Because they have integrity!!

John

 

[Outsydlooknin75]

Re: An open letter to Match Directors and Competitors

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: J.Boyette</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> The worst cheaters are guys from Bragg in Group or at the school house. I know this and its ok, its how they are trained and they should be that way. But I do not watch them like a hawk. I let them know up front how we roll. And its all cool once the rules are clear. Because they have integrity!!

John </div></div>

John,

I have a problem with that last little bit. If they are cheaters then they have no integrity.

To me someone is either a cheater or they have integrity, you cant have both. DO they think outside the box and find different ways to accomplish something that the match director might not have thought of or had desired that a stage be shot a certain way? Sure... but thats part of the game, and it is a game.

 

[jlaw973]

Re: An open letter to Match Directors and Competitors

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Poison123</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BadBot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">what if the UKD targets were say white, bright blue, red and gold.
shooter on the line today you shoot..... blue.
next shooter today you shoot..... gold.
so your unlikely to get the same targets as the squads in front of you. </div></div>

But wouldn't people then complain about target color? </div></div>

Put a numbered sign near target.

Squad 1 shoots targets #1
Squad 2 shoots targets #2, and so on.

I've never been to any long range matches, but seems something like this would work at matches with a limited number of UKD stages.

I've only shot 3gun so far, but the same stuff happens there. You can have a stage intent but someone is going to "Game" it if able. Right or wrong, cheating or not, it is a game and MOST people are there to win. Is it ethically right, that's in the eyes of the shooter. Intent is how the shooter sees it with the intent of winning. Unless specified in the rules or stage description. I personally intend on having fun, but then again I don't have near the money invested as a lot of the others do. You leave holes in the rules, somebody is going to find them.

 

[AKAce]

Re: An open letter to Match Directors and Competitors

Gathering Intel is a Big Part of these Matches... Deal with it

UNK, Crazy Shit almost nobody can hit, changing conditions etc ... All part of it.

If the shit was Easy, Nobody would be doing it. Everyone I knew at Mammoth was either IN my Squad or a RO... But Intel could be traded with other Squads. Did any of it Help ? Not Much !

There are a plethora of Matches, each tests a dif Skillset, Some test Many. Gather Intel, Game it Properly (Engage the Targets you can Hit)Make sure your Gear is Rock Solid.... And most of all, Have FUN. I watch people WIN one match, and finish middle of the pack the next. The Stars have to Align to be at the top.

Shooter
Spotter
Conditions
Visability
Milling Accuracy
Picking right targets to engage
Rifle
Ammo
Gear
Tolerance of Less than Ideal Conditions
Tolerance of STRESS

These are just a few of the factors that played a major role at Mammoth. YES, A few of the issues addressed in the AAR need to be fixed. Hell the Heavy Class found out at the last min they needed TWO Rifles.. Not seen them Whining much (Even tho it SUCKED)

We all know it was Possible to hit about 25 Targets
Spend more time figuring out WHY you did Not hit that many... And Fix the Issues. Changing the Match to inflate Scores or Ego's will not make you learn to shoot.

The Hide Stage at Mammoth SUCKED... Heavy Class the First Target was 800+ Yards with No Trace and no Impact. BUT, if this was the real World... That's where you would have been engaging Real Targets... Cept they would have also been Moving ! We Should have been able to get Hits there.

(1)Number the Targets
(2)Give the First shooters up time to get the Data ready for the targets they just Milled. (Split the Milling into 2 Groups)
(3)Everyone shoot same stages Same Day to "Try" to keep Conditions from making it harder on one Squad than another.
(4)Where Realistic, Re Paint targets between Stages... Not possible on Some, but was on most. Keep the playing field Level.
(5)AFTER the Match... Print a Sheet with the REAL Ranges and other Important Data so we can Learn where we flucked up...

 

[Malibumick]

Re: An open letter to Match Directors and Competitors

Ditto..... what ACE said

 

[Lowlight]

Re: An open letter to Match Directors and Competitors

When there is the amount of complaining as people are doing, more than just a few things need to be addressed... Many of these people are not new to LR Tactical Competitions.

Apparently, a lot people were NOT having fun, there is making it real, and then again there is making it impractical, which for many equals no fun.

As well, when things are done without competitors knowing it gives the match a sense of unfairness that, while many won't say out loud, it seems like a lot feel that way, again, this also equals no fun.

You also have to look at the level of defensiveness... to me that speaks volumes.

Small targets are fine, but if the goal to winning is skip all the far targets, just hit the ones that are close, really the match director needs to rethink that. A happy medium. Just by looking at the numbers it appears it took 4 shots or more to hit one target by the top shooters... not very sniperific.

As a MD, we have been putting on good matches for some time, the targets average 2 MOA, that doesn't mean we dont' have 1/2 MOA targets, we do, but we also know that beyond 700 in field conditions you are not putting out sub moa targets. History has shown us where the line for practical / fun / experience falls, and where it goes beyond reasonable.

We run everything a head of time, and of course on some stages if it takes us 1 Minute to shoot it, we might make it 45 seconds to force the shooter to pick wisely. We time stages, we have small targets, this is not considered out of a person's comfort zone. An example of this is the handgun drag, combination rifle / handgun. Timing wise, very few people get to the last shot, but there are plenty of practical shots before then. The bonus is in making that last one... still most have the clock run out as they are climbing the berm to the last shot. Making people shoot support side with a handgun, on the move, dragging an 80lbs bag with their rifle slung is out of most people's comfort zone. Still they have fun, because it is doable. Everybody hits something.

Criticism sucks, I hate it, but there is no reasons to get defensive over it and saying it was just out of people's comfort zone, well okay, define that, what is out of their comfort zone. What was the goal for the match, to make people miss ? Hell anyone can do that.

 

[SniperCJ]

Re: An open letter to Match Directors and Competitors

Ive shot a few matches and the stuff Vu is talking about (the sitting position BS) chaps my ass.

We all know what a MD means when the rules call for a seated position, but you have guys, and well known and respected guys at that, who twist and bend the rules to suit themselves.

Back a few years ago the MD would try to make is clear by saying "no part of your rifle can touch the ground". Well that birthed the bipod-sittin-on-your-feet crowd. It got to where MD's would make the guys take their bipods off and you get what you saw in Vu's picture.

I lost many a point in matches because I refused to twist the rules and shot the match as intended.

If thats what you gotta do to win a match...

 

[bmarc69]

Re: An open letter to Match Directors and Competitors

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ~Ace~</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Gathering Intel is a Big Part of these Matches... Deal with it

UNK, Crazy Shit almost nobody can hit, changing conditions etc ... All part of it.

If the shit was Easy, Nobody would be doing it. Everyone I knew at Mammoth was either IN my Squad or a RO... But Intel could be traded with other Squads. Did any of it Help ? Not Much !

There are a plethora of Matches, each tests a dif Skillset, Some test Many. Gather Intel, Game it Properly (Engage the Targets you can Hit)Make sure your Gear is Rock Solid.... And most of all, Have FUN. I watch people WIN one match, and finish middle of the pack the next. The Stars have to Align to be at the top.

Shooter
Spotter
Conditions
Visability
Milling Accuracy
Picking right targets to engage
Rifle
Ammo
Gear
Tolerance of Less than Ideal Conditions
Tolerance of STRESS

These are just a few of the factors that played a major role at Mammoth. YES, A few of the issues addressed in the AAR need to be fixed. Hell the Heavy Class found out at the last min they needed TWO Rifles.. Not seen them Whining much (Even tho it SUCKED)

We all know it was Possible to hit about 25 Targets
Spend more time figuring out WHY you did Not hit that many... And Fix the Issues. Changing the Match to inflate Scores or Ego's will not make you learn to shoot.

The Hide Stage at Mammoth SUCKED... Heavy Class the First Target was 800+ Yards with No Trace and no Impact. BUT, if this was the real World... That's where you would have been engaging Real Targets... Cept they would have also been Moving ! We Should have been able to get Hits there.

(1)Number the Targets
(2)Give the First shooters up time to get the Data ready for the targets they just Milled. (Split the Milling into 2 Groups)
(3)Everyone shoot same stages Same Day to "Try" to keep Conditions from making it harder on one Squad than another.
(4)Where Realistic, Re Paint targets between Stages... Not possible on Some, but was on most. Keep the playing field Level.
(5)AFTER the Match... Print a Sheet with the REAL Ranges and other Important Data so we can Learn where we flucked up... </div></div>
Ace,
This is the kind of things that need to be put in the AAR. Thanks for making a list of suggestions. Guys need to remember this shouldn't be an argument but a method for this match to grow and improve.

As for the sharing of info, the competitors take this into their own hands. It was amazing how differently my stage was shot on day two versus day one. Then someone says the ROs had an advantage when they didn't have other competitors telling them the best ways to shoot each stage. Not the issue though. I am as competitive as anyone but I shoot for fun. In the end, I know after I shoot a match that I followed the rules and had fun. No matter where I finished in the standings. At our local matches everyone shares info with the new guys. We want them to come back and shoot with us again.

 

[Lindy]

Re: An open letter to Match Directors and Competitors

There are lots of ways to cheat.

One way not mentioned so far is to have two guys shooting together. One will deliberately crossfire on the target of the other, to boost the other shooter's score.

Has that happened? You bet your ass it has - but we know who did that.

And the first shooter still didn't win.

Is it worth winning a match to have your name known in the shooting community as a cheater?

It isn't to me. Your mileage may vary. I hope not - but I know some of those names.

 

[Rob01]

Re: An open letter to Match Directors and Competitors

Lindy I think alot of people would be surprised at who did that but some of us weren't