An open letter to Match Directors and Competitors

[Graham]

Re: An open letter to Match Directors and Competitors

Teamwork is not necessarily cheating (although cross-firing is). The Oklahoma boys shot the Terry Cross/Jim Clark match in December of 2009 using a version of teamwork that they had practiced beforehand. It wasn't cheating because doing it wasn't against the rules of the match. They organized; they helped each other; they prevailed. And people who watched them do it learned a lot about what this sport should be about - helping each person shoot to the very best of his ability regardless of who he is competing against. I had less of a problem with that than I did with a sitting stage that permitted people to use their bi-pods provided the legs didn't contact the ground. Again: not cheating, but not helpful to improving one's core skills either.

 

[Guest]

Re: An open letter to Match Directors and Competitors

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Cheating is the subversion of the rules' intent</div></div>
Although I agree 110%,... Many have not had issues with bending any rules to move up in America within the last 40-50 years. Just the norm everywhere, anymore. I'd rather come in last every time and be laughed at, than cheat my way up.

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: An open letter to Match Directors and Competitors

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ~Ace~</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Picking right targets to engage
</div></div>

That's why I prefer (as the guy designing a stage) to have the order of target engagement predetermined, plus it lets the spotting be better. Takes gaming out of it, and at the range we currently hold our matches at you cannot have people tossing shots for safety' sake.

 

[AKAce]

Re: An open letter to Match Directors and Competitors

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ~Ace~</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Picking right targets to engage
</div></div>

That's why I prefer (as the guy designing a stage) to have the order of target engagement predetermined, plus it lets the spotting be better. Takes gaming out of it, and at the range we currently hold our matches at you cannot have people tossing shots for safety' sake.</div></div>

When you can put Targets out that "Seem" Easy... because there Large, but in reality are Hard to hit because their location blocks the view of Trace and Impact.. But Smaller targets can be hit Easier... it gives Experience an advantage. You don't have time to engage All the targets on most stages.. Pick the ones you can Hit and get the points.

I think it's Great that every match Director is dif, they are all run dif... Never know what to expect and each one makes you do it dif. Would Suck if they were all the same.

 

[srob]

Re: An open letter to Match Directors and Competitors

+1
Ace,
You are spot on!

 

[Bear_308]

Re: An open letter to Match Directors and Competitors

Whoops - my bad, Sobrbiker ... I made the correction AZ TPRC and NCPPRC TBRC -- holy alphabet soup!

There are a lot of great points here ... I always get a little frustrated when I see guys shooting in positions which were clearly not the intent. But if the COF didn't specifically state against it, then let 'er rip ... it's just a game, right? Obviously in a real-world sitation there aren't going to be stage descriptions ... just targets.

I think Vu might be onto something there with the string idea ... the MD reads the stage description and it says "shooting position is seated," and "all shots must be over the string". Problem solved!

It's all in good fun, though ... I've learned a ton since I started shooting competitively & I wouldn't have seen any of it if I never gave it a try.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: lvcatfish</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The match director can not predict every level of stupidity that will be thrust upon them. </div></div>
HA!!!

Thanks Bear-but we're "T<span style="font-weight: bold">P</span>RC", NCPPRC's is TBRC....

Kurt-very good point.

LWMC-I'm with you on all points. Thought must be given to match design to level the playing field. Not hard to do, just takes some thinking. </div></div>

 

[J.Boyette]

Re: An open letter to Match Directors and Competitors

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Outsy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
John,

I have a problem with that last little bit. If they are cheaters then they have no integrity.

To me someone is either a cheater or they have integrity, you cant have both. DO they think outside the box and find different ways to accomplish something that the match director might not have thought of or had desired that a stage be shot a certain way? Sure... but thats part of the game, and it is a game. </div></div>

Sir,

I understand your point.

What I am trying to get out is this:

some people due to there real Sniper Job are trained to find every single way to beat the system. This is how they stay alive in a combat zone.

when such people come to mine and Glenn's matches I take them aside and ask them to please follow the rules to the letter and share what ever knowledge they have to help the others out.

It works every time.

When I see Rangers or long tab guys come to my match I make it a point to be clear on what we think of bending the rules and cheating.

I expect bending of the rules from these guys. Its how they live and fight a war. But for a match its pointless.

We are to have fun and enjoy the day with great people.

I hope that clears up my point.

Thanks

John

 

[Okie Gordon]

Re: An open letter to Match Directors and Competitors

Graham,
You may not be aware of it but the same Oklahoma guys placed 1, 2, & 3 in the open division at the Mammoth match. Additionally, they (John, Tim, & Wade)consistently place near the top at the Rifles Only matches and the Tiger Valley matches and the Long Range Alley Matches.

Being the "old man" of the group who gets to ride in the van with the them, I can tell you with 100% certainty that the reason they consistently finish very well at the matches is that we practice weekly (hot, cold, wet, or dry) and work weaknesses rather than focusing on strengths. The brand of teamwork you mention is simply that we keep each other focused upon the next stage and what we need to do to be prepared (ammo loaded in magazines, correct dope on the rifle for known yardage, etc) as well as to remind each other 0,0 on the scope after each stage and magazine out of the rifle. We call impacts and/or corrections for others on the line when the course of fire allows it. We do the best to call honest corrections for everybody on the line with us, not just for each other.
In the van on the long drive home one of our biggest items for discussion is what weaknesses did the previous match bring out that we could focus on at practice in order to make us better shooters in the future.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Teamwork is not necessarily cheating (although cross-firing is). The Oklahoma boys shot the Terry Cross/Jim Clark match in December of 2009 using a version of teamwork that they had practiced beforehand. It wasn't cheating because doing it wasn't against the rules of the match. They organized; they helped each other; they prevailed. And people who watched them do it learned a lot about what this sport should be about - helping each person shoot to the very best of his ability regardless of who he is competing against. I had less of a problem with that than I did with a sitting stage that permitted people to use their bi-pods provided the legs didn't contact the ground. Again: not cheating, but not helpful to improving one's core skills either. </div></div>

I chose to pass on attending the "Mammoth Sniper Challenge", so don't think this post has anything to do with that match specifically. It is one of the few matches I chose to pass on that the rest of the Oklahoma guys attended, the other being the tactical matches at TacPro in Texas. I attended two matches at TacPro in years past and then finally wrote them off my list and am not interested in ever going back to that place.

One of the things I do that I feel is very important is to drop the person running any match I attend a AAR type note mentioning how much I appreciate the hard work they put into creating and running the match. Additionally, in this PRIVATE correspondence, I will give them my personal thoughts on the pluses and minuses of the match and any suggestions as to how it could be improved for the future or where problem areas could be smoothed out. Quite often competitors see things from a different perspective than the match director. While the director is running his butt off trying to keep a match running smoothly, 50 competitors can be sitting around shaking their heads at how poorly the flow of the match is going. The director needs honest and accurate feedback from competitors a few days after the match in order to give him the knowledge to improve things the next time around. I have done this for every facility I have competed at, and with one exception the feedback was listened to and steps were taken to improve the match in the future.

 

[JuniperEyes]

Re: An open letter to Match Directors and Competitors

I typed about half a damn page, proof read it, added a few thoughts, read it again and then deleted it.

It all boiled down to this:

If one wshes for an even playing field and more rules, move on to another shooting sport.

Short and simple like Tactical Match rules...




Glenn

 

[J.Boyette]

Re: An open letter to Match Directors and Competitors

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: J.S.T. Glenn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I typed about half a damn page, proof read it, added a few thoughts, read it again and then deleted it.

It all boiled down to this:

If one wshes for an even playing field and more rules, move on to another shooting sport.

Short and simple like Tactical Match rules...




Glenn </div></div>

100% right.

This is why our little match sales out in 36 hours

John

 

[Graham]

Re: An open letter to Match Directors and Competitors

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: J.S.T. Glenn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It all boiled down to this: If one wshes for an even playing field and more rules, move on to another shooting sport.</div></div>Most people don't want a complex set of rules because it makes equipment and technique less freestyle and the match itself less practical. But there's nothing wrong a level playing field: that's called fairness; and we do want everyone to shoot the same match under similar conditions.

 

[rksimple]

Re: An open letter to Match Directors and Competitors

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SniperCJ</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ive shot a few matches and the stuff Vu is talking about (the sitting position BS) chaps my ass.

We all know what a MD means when the rules call for a seated position, but you have guys, and well known and respected guys at that, who twist and bend the rules to suit themselves.

Back a few years ago the MD would try to make is clear by saying "no part of your rifle can touch the ground". Well that birthed the bipod-sittin-on-your-feet crowd. It got to where MD's would make the guys take their bipods off and you get what you saw in Vu's picture.

I lost many a point in matches because I refused to twist the rules and shot the match as intended.

If thats what you gotta do to win a match... </div></div>

So would these be BS seated positions as well, just because they're not in an NRA rule book?

Just because somebody may be too fat or out of shape to get into a certain position that is COMPLETELY within the rules doesn't make it unfair. I saw, IIRC, Rich E. at last TPRC shooting kneeling with the sling wrapped around his leg somehow and the rifle hanging. He beat me by one position. I didn't start whining about how he gamed it, I looked at ways I too could improve my kneeling and other positional.

Is a shooting jacket gaming in a tactical match? Is Tubbs seated position gaming? Or are we talking about gaming like using an LRF from the parking lot of a UKD match as it wasn't specifically disallowed in the rules?

 

[rksimple]

Re: An open letter to Match Directors and Competitors

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Vu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

COMPLETELY and 100% legal, but not by any means the intent of the COF.

</div></div>

Would that be like the norcal squad at last TPRC stacking all of their packs on top of each others to make a virtual shooting platform for all of their guys to use?

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

Well written COF descriptions and various obstacles (strings, boards to shoot over, etc.) make for pretty straightforward COFs with little gaming. Unless on the "gaming" continuum we are talking about my above-mentioned LRF scenario.

ETA: Don't get me wrong, intending for a COF (like seated) to simulate shooting over something is great. Shooting within the given rules is fine too. Everyone may interpret the "intent" of the COF fire differently. Thats just how it is...right or wrong. Your point, Vu, is completely valid. I just don't want to see you guys stacking packs in AZ this year after all this gaming talk...

 

[Ol' RD]

Re: An open letter to Match Directors and Competitors

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Vu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Attention all shooters.

NorCal has a 10K retainer for a lawyer to be onsite to answer any COF questions. LOL.

Due to this cost...match fees for TBRC are now 500.00 per shooter.

From a MD point of view, I believe it is my job to write COFs, Rules, and Regs so that the competitor must shoot the match the way I have envisioned it. However, things do fall through the cracks.
I am a firm believer in the "intent of the rule and/or COF” principle. The problem with this is, everyone has a different opinion on what the “intent” is or should be.

From a competitor point of view, of course I would want every advantage I can to score better on a COF. I like to error on the side of safety by sticking to the intent of the rule/COF, than being labeled a gamer. Remember just because you can do something, doesn’t mean it’s the right thing to do.

I learned a valuable lesson last year at TBRC on a simple sitting COF stage.

10” plate @ 220 yards, 6 rounds in the sitting position, 60 second prep, 60 seconds to shoot. The intent of this stage was for the shooter to sling up and shoot it in a traditional “NRA” sitting position. “The idea of the sitting position is to get you over something you can’t shoot in the prone.” Quoted from a very well respected source.

Now I did not say NRA Sitting Position in the COF so here is what I got on the line….

COMPLETELY and 100% legal, but not by any means the intent of the COF.

Rifles were rested on the shooters lap and not even in the shooters shoulder.

I got caught slipping and learned a lesson. Simple solution brought up by other shooters at the match, a string that a shooter must shoot over. $2.00 solution.

The cat and mouse game will never end with MD/ROs and competitors......it is fun and frustrating at the same time.</div></div>

Dude, if I got into that position I wouldn't need a rifle or a lawyer....... I'd need a chiropractor! LOL!

 

[WyomingShooter]

Re: An open letter to Match Directors and Competitors

I see nothing wrong with the "sitting" position in the photo. The shooter is in compliance with the rules and has found a field-expedient shooting position that works for him. Jeff Cooper, hardly a gamer by any definition, noted that unusual shooting positions were sometimes dicated by terrain, vegetation, and other conditions. These "jackass" positions are discussed and illustrated in my autographed copy of "The Art of the Rifle". Thanks for the interesting discussion. With best regards from the Big Empty, ELN.

 

[BOLTRIPPER]

Re: An open letter to Match Directors and Competitors

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: WyomingShooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I see nothing wrong with the "sitting" position in the photo. The shooter is in compliance with the rules and has found a field-expedient shooting position that works for him. Jeff Cooper, hardly a gamer by any definition, noted that unusual shooting positions were sometimes dicated by terrain, vegetation, and other conditions. These "jackass" positions are discussed and illustrated in my autographed copy of "The Art of the Rifle". Thanks for the interesting discussion. With best regards from the Big Empty, ELN. </div></div>



you need to be spanked ....on so many levels......



oh please complete you profile........

 

[Lindy]

Re: An open letter to Match Directors and Competitors

Why should he complete his profile? He's not selling anything, and it's pretty easy to tell where he is.

 

[Shady_Jay]

Re: An open letter to Match Directors and Competitors

We should just do it like professional wrestling for now on. Have the whole thing staged with high drama. Put bleachers around the towers and sell tickets. Lindy hitting shooters with chairs and trashcans. Frank running around in his cape. Jacob smashing visiting teams trailers with the excavator. Side cage match challenges. Tag-team mover shoot.

You won't be shit unless you have your own trading card.

 

[ponchair]

Re: An open letter to Match Directors and Competitors

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NTRP-CKA</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We should just do it like professional wrestling for now on. Have the whole thing staged with high drama. Put bleachers around the towers and sell tickets. Lindy hitting shooters with chairs and trashcans. Frank running around in his cape. Jacob smashing visiting teams trailers with the excavator. Side cage match challenges. Tag-team mover shoot.

You won't be shit unless you have your own trading card. </div></div>

Bro where the fuck do you come up with this shit!!???
HAHAHAHAH! ROFL!

 

[Lindy]

Re: An open letter to Match Directors and Competitors

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bro where the fuck do you come up with this shit!!??</div></div>

When his song <span style="font-style: italic">Chug-A-Lug</span> was high on the charts, Roger Miller visited Johnny Carson one night. Asked how he came up with his lyrics, Miller replied, "Well, I drink a lot."

 

[Todd Morris]

Re: An open letter to Match Directors and Competitors

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NTRP-CKA</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We should just do it like professional wrestling for now on. Have the whole thing staged with high drama. Put bleachers around the towers and sell tickets. Lindy hitting shooters with chairs and trashcans. Frank running around in his cape. Jacob smashing visiting teams trailers with the excavator. Side cage match challenges. Tag-team mover shoot.

You won't be shit unless you have your own trading card. </div></div>That's about as funny as anything I've seen.Going to quit watching Leno and tune in here...

 

[Shady_Jay]

Re: An open letter to Match Directors and Competitors

I like to party.

 

[fargo007]

Re: An open letter to Match Directors and Competitors

We ran an all UKD team match not long ago, and some posting in this thread were there. 1st round UKD hits are the holy grail of this sport, and I submit, an ultra-necessary component.

We didn't have any problems like this. Here's how the CBS stage went:

1 - All teams were a hundred yards downhill and could not see the shooting position or targets.

2 - I called Mike on the radio and he sent a team up on the clock.

3 - They ranged the targets (2) and command fired.

4 - They had :30 to vacate the position with all their gear (and empty brass) to a small bs'ing area. Nobody was on cell phones nor had reason to be.

5 - Until announced that LRF's were available for use, having one in your hand got you an immediate DQ.

Vu and JB have it right that it's the MD's challenge to design stages such that there neither opportunity nor benefit to doing that. There are no MD's that have been around a long time and are not highly creative.

Personally, I'd be pissed off if somebody texted me the distances. If I compete, I want the result to be 100% about me. Using information others don't have makes you a douchebag. I would DQ somebody caught doing that in a heartbeat, and identify that person right here.

Guys from Bragg - different story... when they're not in competition, I want them cheating like motherfuckers. Shooting people in the back, while they're sleeping, praying, or taking a crap, and figuring out how to do it again and again.

Anyone who is doing this - <span style="font-weight: bold">you will get caught </span>and it will be the end of your reputation.

Is it worth it?

--Fargo007

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: An open letter to Match Directors and Competitors

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NTRP-CKA</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We should just do it like professional wrestling for now on. Have the whole thing staged with high drama. Put bleachers around the towers and sell tickets. Lindy hitting shooters with chairs and trashcans. Frank running around in his cape. Jacob smashing visiting teams trailers with the excavator. Side cage match challenges. Tag-team mover shoot.

You won't be shit unless you have your own trading card. </div></div>

You've got the range, it'll be your match...

 

[Rifles Only]

Re: An open letter to Match Directors and Competitors

RKSimple:

Your comment about LRF's in the parking lot on UKD targets.
Are you referring to a Rifles Only match?

I can remember a shooter doing that at one of the matches. In that particular instance, it was a prohibited action.

We have some where they are allowed, and others were they aren't.

In that case, it was not allowed.

I asked the entire group of shooters to not use them until it was time to do so. All except one complied.

Then again, maybe you aren't even referring to a Rifles Only match

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: An open letter to Match Directors and Competitors

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rksimple</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I just don't want to see you guys stacking packs in AZ this year after all this gaming talk...

</div></div>

Maybe if one guy can lash them all together and shoulder it and run like that all weekend

real answer-wait and see, but it will be a good match!

 

[rksimple]

Re: An open letter to Match Directors and Competitors

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rifles Only</div><div class="ubbcode-body">RKSimple:

Your comment about LRF's in the parking lot on UKD targets.
Are you referring to a Rifles Only match?

I can remember a shooter doing that at one of the matches. In that particular instance, it was a prohibited action.

We have some where they are allowed, and others were they aren't.

In that case, it was not allowed.

I asked the entire group of shooters to not use them until it was time to do so. All except one complied.

Then again, maybe you aren't even referring to a Rifles Only match </div></div>

Not any match in particular. I've heard of and seen all kinds of sneaky things and that was one that just stuck out in my mind. Just a general example of over the top gaming.

 

[Shady_Jay]

Re: An open letter to Match Directors and Competitors

Yeah I'm getting all figured out...

Tony's signature move would be the Sling Loop of Death with finishing blows from a fastex buckle.

George would use the Double GAP Falcon Punch. Ride in on a chariot pulled by Moon and Flounder.

Terry needs some kind of Magnum PI angle I'm trying to work out.

I hit Vegas in the morning and we can brainstorm some more and work on the script.

 

[blklabs]

Re: An open letter to Match Directors and Competitors

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NTRP-CKA</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yeah I'm getting all figured out...

Tony's signature move would be the Sling Loop of Death with finishing blows from a fastex buckle.

George would use the Double GAP Falcon Punch. Ride in on a chariot pulled by Moon and Flounder.

Terry needs some kind of Magnum PI angle I'm trying to work out.

I hit Vegas in the morning and we can brainstorm some more and work on the script.


</div></div>

now thats funny!