Annealed vs Not-Annealed. Some stats

[LA260]

I started annealing with salt bath method few weeks ago and ran some annealed vs not annealed tests over the weekend with identical loads.
None of the brass (all Lapua) has ever been annealed before the test. I haven't kept track of number of firings but 260 has to be around 15 . Primer pockets are almost gone. 6.5x47 and 308 have probably been fired 8-10 times. Primer pockets for both are still tight specially the 6.5x47.
Brass has been prepped identical for both groups except annealing, and all powder/primer/brass/bullets are from the same lots and have been reloaded the same time.
There was no measurable difference between group size at 100 yards for annealed vs not. All shot around 1/2".
25shots were fired for each load w/MagnetospeedV3

 

[bjay]

Very interesting findings..

 

[SkyScrapin]

Good data.

For curiosities sake, did you wet or dry tumble the brass to be spotless, or was there powder residue left in the case necks? This is something I have been messing with for a little while to see how it affects SD/ES.

 

[Sheldon N]

Thanks for sharing the data, always good to see others results.

My perspective on this is that knowing what one rifle did with a change in annealing doesn't necessarily predict what another rifle will do. The biggest thing annealing does vs no annealing is change neck tension. Your load might respond favorably or unfavorably to reduced neck tension, or it might not respond at all. That's neither "pro" or "con" annealing, just info on how your particular load responds.

Where annealing is appealing to me is in consistency. If I do all my load development on fired/annealled brass I know that 5 firings or 10 firings from now if I continue to anneal every firing I'm going to have substantially the same neck tension as when I started. If I don't anneal the brass will work harden over time and neck tension will increase - and I'll have to monitor to see what that change does to performance.

I'd much rather have consistency of process to reduce any change in variables, plus the benefit of consistency in brass sizing/headspace and avoiding any split necks.

 

[SporterII]

I have a quarter [25 cents] "LA'",s reply will be dry tumbled.

 

[Supersubes]

I remember some threads about the salt bath method. For the sake of this thread, can you update the method for us. At least times and temps etc.

How did the seating operation feel between them? I’d think taking 15x .260 vs 15x/annealed would be easy to feel during seating. I know mine did when I started.

 

[LA260]

Answers to some of the questions:
My brass prep process after shooting is as follows: decap, Tumble w/corncob. clean primer pockets, body size, neck size, expander mandrel (0.001 for 6.5x47/260, 0.002 for 308), chamfer/deburr, ultrasonic for 20-25mins to get the lube off, dry, and reload. I check every few firings for case length, compare it to the chamber length and trim if necessary.

Used Ballistic Recreation system. Temp was between 510c +/-10c for 5-7 seconds. To be honest I did not feel any difference when seating the 260 bullets. Maybe without using the expander mandrel difference would be more noticeable. 6.5x47 felt a little different when seating the bullets. Hard to explain but the annealed felt less smoother than not annealed.

 

[Supersubes]

510 seems a little too cool to me, by 200 degrees or so?

Just noticed the little c. Lol

 

[PinesAndProjectiles]

Good info. Thanks for posting.

 

[Subwrx300]

Seems pretty close to some of the findings by the AB team last year too. IIRC, they didn't find a direct discernable benefit to annealed vs unannealed brass (other than possibly longevity of brass necks and neck tension consistency). But even if slightly more consistent neck tension existed, it was masked by other variables in load to the point that some SDs went up and some went down, just like your results.

Great post and awesome data!

 

[memilanuk]

510 seems a little too cool to me, by 200 degrees or so?

Just noticed the little c. Lol

...which actually puts it a bit on the high side (~950F).

If it works for the OP, more power to 'em.

 

[Bradu]

Seems pretty close to some of the findings by the AB team last year too. IIRC, they didn't find a direct discernable benefit to annealed vs unannealed brass (other than possibly longevity of brass necks and neck tension consistency). But even if slightly more consistent neck tension existed, it was masked by other variables in load to the point that some SDs went up and some went down, just like your results.

Great post and awesome data!

AB did a great job with that book.

 

[918v]

If you anneal incorrectly you’ll make the necks too soft and the Es/Sd will suffer. If you seat the bullet directly against an annealed surface you’ll double or triple the neck friction and the performance will likewise suffer.

 

[Subwrx300]

If you anneal incorrectly you’ll make the necks too soft and the Es/Sd will suffer. If you seat the bullet directly against an annealed surface you’ll double or triple the neck friction and the performance will likewise suffer.

I don't think AB used any dry lube in their test (nor above) so that could make a difference. But would need to test again unannealed with dry lube vs annealed with dry lube. If OP feels like rerunning, it would be cool to see if that helps.

Maybe choose one of the loads where SDs increased after annealing.

 

[LA260]

Interesting re seating bullets directly to an annealed surface. i wasn't aware that could be an issue. I can do a similar test for the 308 with redding dry lube to see if the results will be different.

I've had some pretty good results shooting the 6.5x47 with virgin brass which is direct contact with annealed surface. This is from couple of weeks ago.

140HORN BTHP 37.2VARGET 0.010" FED GM205M
Series 1 Shots: 20
Min 2766 Max 2784
Avg 2775 S-D 6.1
ES 18

 

[918v]

Virgin brass is waxed. No direct contact.

 

[Subwrx300]

Virgin brass is waxed. No direct contact.

I was really close to derailing this thread with that softball. Lol ???

But we can keep this on on point because too many devolve rapidly.

 

[918v]

It’s true, though. Factory brass is annealed as the final step, then tumbled to remove the oxide and/or tumbled in carnuba wax. If you compare the seating feel of a bullet into a factory new neck vs a freshly annealed neck you’ll see a huge difference in seating pressure. The annealed neck will feel like it is lined with sandpaper. The factory new neck will seat smooth.

 

[WilburW]

I recall a study done by Applied Ballistics that showed no significant difference between annealed and not. With all the other procedures involved in reloading, I’m reluctant to spend the time and effort if no gain...

 

[LawnMM]

I recall a study done by Applied Ballistics that showed no significant difference between annealed and not. With all the other procedures involved in reloading, I’m reluctant to spend the time and effort if no gain...

Correct, no difference in accuracy in excess of ten firings... But hey, some guys have money and time to burn and an $450+ annealing machine will do both.

 

[300ATT]

FWIW, I borrowed a benchsource annealer and ran through all of my brass. Right after that I DID notice that seating the bullets felt very "smooth" and consistent across the board. However, I did not notice any measurable trend in precision/accuracy one way or the other - guns/ammo shot just like they did before, same velocities, ES's and SD's. Perhaps the best benefit is that I sleep ever so slightly better now? Can't measure that either.

YMMV

@LA260 great post, thank for reporting that information!

 

[goinghunting]

Good data.

For curiosities sake, did you wet or dry tumble the brass to be spotless, or was there powder residue left in the case necks? This is something I have been messing with for a little while to see how it affects SD/ES.

And your findings?

 

[supercorndogs]

2850 with 41.7g of h4350 with a140ELD? My Creed runs about 2700 with 41.6.

 

[mustang-cars]

2850 with 41.7g of h4350 with a140ELD? My Creed runs about 2700 with 41.6.

With Alpha LRP brass, 41.5gr H4350, and a 26" Bartlein I'm at 2830 with 140 ELD's. So could be accurate?

 

[LA260]

2850 with 41.7g of h4350 with a140ELD? My Creed runs about 2700 with 41.6.

AVE has been 2830-2840. 2700 with 41.5H4350 sounds a little low on speed. What kind of barrel is it?

 

[supercorndogs]

AVE has been 2830-2840. 2700 with 41.5H4350 sounds a little low on speed. What kind of barrel is it?

I don't know what kind of barrel, it was supposed to be Criterion blank, but it looks like a hammer forged barrel to me, but looking around 2715 at 41.4 comes up a lot in the Creed. 2700 is whats in my calculator right now because my chromo is broken. It is probably a little faster than that.

Interesting note 3 of the 4 annealed had a smaller SD. That means that the increased ES was an outlier, and the greatest portion of the rounds were closer together.

 

[BLKWLFK9]

in my old rifle, i was getting 2780ish with 42gr of H4350 out of a 24" rock creek barrel, if i remember correctly. It was definitely sub 2800

 

[LA260]

I ran some Annealed vs Annealed and Redding dry neck lube to see if there would be any benefits in using the dry lube. Results are below:

 

[jitter]

Answers to some of the questions:
My brass prep process after shooting is as follows: decap, Tumble w/corncob. clean primer pockets, body size, neck size, expander mandrel (0.001 for 6.5x47/260, 0.002 for 308), chamfer/deburr, ultrasonic for 20-25mins to get the lube off, dry, and reload. I check every few firings for case length, compare it to the chamber length and trim if necessary.

Is this prep process without annealing?
At what stage did you anneal?

 

[LA260]

Is this prep process without annealing?
At what stage did you anneal?

Yes. that's the process without the annealing. The annealing was done after cleaning the primer pockets.

 

[Sean the Nailer]

Not to add to the consistency/inconsistency argument, but moreso to anyone who's got the longevity experience in this process. How long/how much longer does annealed brass last, as a lifetime and/or number of reloadings as compared to non-annealed brass?

Maybe I'm looking through the wrong glasses, but I thought that the primary reason for this is to prevent neck-splits and case-head separations.

 

[spife7980]

Not to add to the consistency/inconsistency argument, but moreso to anyone who's got the longevity experience in this process. How long/how much longer does annealed brass last, as a lifetime and/or number of reloadings as compared to non-annealed brass?

Maybe I'm looking through the wrong glasses, but I thought that the primary reason for this is to prevent neck-splits and case-head separations.

Ive never kept one set of unannealed brass and ran it equal to another annealed set.

I didnt anneal before and could get from 5-25 firings on the brass depending on the quality of it. Or I annealed started annealing it in the middle and have gotten 5-15 so far on it or I have annealed for the entire life and I have 5-15 on it.

I find that annealing helps keep the case necks consistent from firing to firing.

I find that brass quality and how its treated has much more bearing on the life of the brass than just annealing it. Lapua should last longer than hornady. Overworked will last less than carefully worked.

 

[memilanuk]

I thought that the primary reason for this is to prevent neck-splits and case-head separations.

How exactly would annealing the neck/shoulder area have anything to do with case head separation?

 

[Sean the Nailer]

How exactly would annealing the neck/shoulder area have anything to do with case head separation?

Sorry, I forgot to mention primer pocket enlargement prevention.

All joking aside now, aside from the neck tension differences between neck-turning or annealing, my primary point of the question was intended to be regarding what perceived differences there are in projected case-life differences. Exponential or fractional?

 

[LA260]

Sorry, I forgot to mention primer pocket enlargement prevention.

All joking aside now, aside from the neck tension differences between neck-turning or annealing, my primary point of the question was intended to be regarding what perceived differences there are in projected case-life differences. Exponential or fractional?

I'm pretty sure the primer pockets will be long gone before I see any split necks. I've been reloading for 5-6 years and I don't remember ever having any split necks, but I do have bunch of 308/260 cases that are unusable because of loose primer pockets.

 

[Sean the Nailer]

C'mon guys, I made a poor attempt at humor, and it seems to be REALLY going downhill. That wasn't the intention.

LA260, have you any idea (or accurate records) of how many reloads you've gotten out of those 308s or 260s?

I've got some Lapua brass here (308) that have had 3 loads through them, and I'm looking at getting these Hot Salts and trying that route. Just wondering what difference it will make. Especially considering that getting that kind of brass up here in Canuckia isn't near as easy as it is down there.

And I was wondering about doing the same for My Lady's handgun ammo, too.

 

[LA260]

C'mon guys, I made a poor attempt at humor, and it seems to be REALLY going downhill. That wasn't the intention.

LA260, have you any idea (or accurate records) of how many reloads you've gotten out of those 308s or 260s?

I've got some Lapua brass here (308) that have had 3 loads through them, and I'm looking at getting these Hot Salts and trying that route. Just wondering what difference it will make. Especially considering that getting that kind of brass up here in Canuckia isn't near as easy as it is down there.

And I was wondering about doing the same for My Lady's handgun ammo, too.

No idea for the 308 Lapua cases since that's what I started reloading with and did not really keep records back then.
For 1st batch of the 100 260 Lapua cases I've reloaded them around 15 times and they are done, but the primer pockets were already pretty loose by the 12th or so reloading. Always used H4350 and max has been 42.3gr but they been loaded at 41.5-42.0 for most of their lives. I would say reloading the 260 Lapuas 10-12 times is a fair estimate if you don't push them too much.
If you want the primer pockets last a long time just get 6.5x47 barrel and use the Lapua brass. The primer pockets on these are just amazing. I cant tell a difference between the 2nd time I reloaded and 10th. I would imagine the SR 6.5CM Lapua brass to be similar but have no experience with it.

 

[Sheldon N]

LA260, have you any idea (or accurate records) of how many reloads you've gotten out of those 308s or 260s?

I've got some Lapua brass here (308) that have had 3 loads through them, and I'm looking at getting these Hot Salts and trying that route. Just wondering what difference it will make. Especially considering that getting that kind of brass up here in Canuckia isn't near as easy as it is down there.

When I was running Lapua 308 brass I got close to 20 firings. Annealed every firing, ran moderate loads. Primer pockets never got too loose, you couldn't tell whether they'd been fired 5 times or 15 times. They only died because I wasn't paying enough attention to shoulder bump and ran a firing or two with a bit too much headspace. The case stretch caused case head separation.

Keep the shoulder bump minimal, don't run them hot, and anneal regularly and you could easily get to 20-25 firings. Eventually the case will grow and be trimmed enough times that the web thins out and you get case head separation, but that can take a long time if you treat the brass right.

 

[NamibHunter]

When I was running Lapua 308 brass I got close to 20 firings. Annealed every firing, ran moderate loads. Primer pockets never got too loose, you couldn't tell whether they'd been fired 5 times or 15 times. They only died because I wasn't paying enough attention to shoulder bump and ran a firing or two with a bit too much headspace. The case stretch caused case head separation.

Keep the shoulder bump minimal, don't run them hot, and anneal regularly and you could easily get to 20-25 firings. Eventually the case will grow and be trimmed enough times that the web thins out and you get case head separation, but that can take a long time if you treat the brass right.

 

[NamibHunter]

Good to see actual data posted on this topic.

Have to agree that brass life for 6.5 CM is determined by primer pockets opening up, not neck splits. On the second barrel of my 6.5CM, and a total of about 3,000 reloads so far. Initially used Hornady brass at 2760 fps out of a 26” barrel (moderate H4350 and IMR4350 loads) and got 5-6 firings before primer pockets were too loose to hold a primer. Then switched to Nosler brass (pricy) and it survived 10-12 firings, and lower cost per reload, so it was actually worth the extra money. Then bought 100 cases of the 6.5 CM Lapua brass with the small rifle primer, and the first batch has lasted 16 firings and only two cases have primer pockets that feel a little loose now, but still adequate, remaining 48 are as tight as when new. I expect / hope to get 20-25 reloads from the batch. Even better value for money than the Nosler brass. No experience with other brass. Would be interested to hear your experience with brass life with new lower cost SR brass that appeared recently.

I anneal (almost) all the time to keep neck tension as consistent as possible, and to stay inside the node where the rifle shoots a low SD (5-8 fps) and produce small groups. Have seen the occasional 2-3 fps per weight sorted 5 shot group, but not typical. Have the equipment to measure seating force (K&M arbor press with force measurement tip, LE Wilson hand die), and when i occasionally skip annealing, seating force goes up from a low 8-15 lbs to a much higher 25-40 lbs. 6 lbs is just barely enough to prevent a bullet from being rotated by hand. Arbor press provides good feel, and it is very obvious that neck tension has shifted up. Muzzle velocity goes up too. Seems to recall that seating force variability got wider too, but will have to check my notebooks.

If you are on the low end of the speed range (node) where your gun shoots well, probably nothing bad will happen to your group size or SD if you skip annealing a few times, speed will just continue to go up as neck tension has increased from the progressively more and more work hardened brass. As long as you stay inside the node, all is well.

But as ambient temperature in Texas goes up in early summer, eventually the combination of temperature sensitivity of the powder and primer plus the higher neck tension can push you out of the node and then SD typically increases around 2x for me and groups open up. Time for annealing and a lower powder charge.

Experimental design is not easy here: Unless you accurately know the start and end of the speed range / node you want to maintain, you cannot be sure if annealing matters or not. Collegue of mine bought the (rather expensive) AMP induction annealer, and reported that his velocities are more consistent between reloads, so easy to stay inside the node. SDs are similar or maybe slighly better compared to gas flame annealing, but process is faster than before. Hope this helps.

PS: Always good to see folks post actual experimental data, something to be encouraged. Thanks LA.

 

[NamibHunter]

I

I recall a study done by Applied Ballistics that showed no significant difference between annealed and not. With all the other procedures involved in reloading, I’m reluctant to spend the time and effort if no gain...

I anneal almost every time, using an AMP machine, and i can measure a difference in seating force (K&M arbor press with force measurement tip), but i do NOT see a statistically significant difference in average velocity, and i do not see a reduction in SD or ES. [I do question the value of the AMP machine, but i like the speed and convenience of it, so i continue to use it. I used to gas flame anneal by hand, and that was slow and somewhat frustrating.]

I recently re-read the section in the Bryan Litz book about their annealing experiment: They cleaned the barrel, fired a very limited number of fouling shots (i recall two shots, but will have to check to confirm), and then started recording velocity data for something like 10 shots. Then switched to the annealed batch of brass, cleaned the barrel again, fired a small nr of fouling shots and recorded MV for the same nr of shots. The data clearly shows that speed goes up as the barrel gets more fouled. Speed correlates with shot number. [Hard to be sure, bit i suspect copper fouling was the major cause. Carbon fouling likely plays a secondary role.]

My conclusion is that this was a flawed experiment, and they need to redesign it and then repeat. This time don’t clean the barrel and use a round robin approach to alternate between the two batches. The published result says more about how some barrels take far more fouling shots to get to a relatively constant speed. Not convinced it says much about the benefits of annealing. Copper equilibrium takes a while to achieve in barrels with machining marks. [I have had factory barrels that would take 15 to 20 shots for the MV to stabilize, and a few cut rifled BR barrels with a mirror finish that stabilize within 2 shots.]

I have a lot of admiration for Bryan Litz and Applied Ballistics and i respect what they do, so not trying to throw rocks. But imho their annealing result is inconclusive. [Incorrect experimental design. Easy to fix though.]

Run your own experiment, easy enough to do if you have a good crony (e. g. MagnetoSpeed or Labradar). Just don’t start your experiment until you have 50 plus rounds through the barrel since cleaning, alternate between the two batches, keep barrel temp as constant as you can, fire into a berm with a regular cadence (don’t cook the round for too long in a hot chamber).

 

[Barelstroker]

I


I anneal almost every time, using an AMP machine, and i can measure a difference in seating force (K&M arbor press with force measurement tip), but i do NOT see a statistically significant difference in average velocity, and i do not see a reduction in SD or ES. [I do question the value of the AMP machine, but i like the speed and convenience of it, so i continue to use it. I used to gas flame anneal by hand, and that was slow and somewhat frustrating.]

I recently re-read the section in the Bryan Litz book about their annealing experiment: They cleaned the barrel, fired a very limited number of fouling shots (i recall two shots, but will have to check to confirm), and then started recording velocity data for something like 10 shots. Then switched to the annealed batch of brass, cleaned the barrel again, fired a small nr of fouling shots and recorded MV for the same nr of shots. The data clearly shows that speed goes up as the barrel gets more fouled. Speed correlates with shot number. [Hard to be sure, bit i suspect copper fouling was the major cause. Carbon fouling likely plays a secondary role.]

My conclusion is that this was a flawed experiment, and they need to redesign it and then repeat. This time don’t clean the barrel and use a round robin approach to alternate between the two batches. The published result says more about how some barrels take far more fouling shots to get to a relatively constant speed. Not convinced it says much about the benefits of annealing. Copper equilibrium takes a while to achieve in barrels with machining marks. [I have had factory barrels that would take 15 to 20 shots for the MV to stabilize, and a few cut rifled BR barrels with a mirror finish that stabilize within 2 shots.]

I have a lot of admiration for Bryan Litz and Applied Ballistics and i respect what they do, so not trying to throw rocks. But imho their annealing result is inconclusive. [Incorrect experimental design. Easy to fix though.]

Run your own experiment, easy enough to do if you have a good crony (e. g. MagnetoSpeed or Labradar). Just don’t start your experiment until you have 50 plus rounds through the barrel since cleaning, alternate between the two batches, keep barrel temp as constant as you can, fire into a berm with a regular cadence (don’t cook the round for too long in a hot chamber).

I don't quite follow what you're getting at.
In your 1st paragraph, you state that, "I do question the value of the AMP machine" &, you list the reasons why.
You then state that you think Litz results are flawed because he measures no improvement.
Admittedly, he used only 1 rifle & I believe 1 load but, his testing seemed perfectly valid as far as I can see.
It's a small sample however, he measured no improvement so, in his case, annealing or rather stress relieving had no marked benefits.
I'm not sure why you question his results.
Regards............Barelstroker

 

[Barelstroker]

One example. I bet Litts has a chamber, dies and brass that does not move much during the process. I believe this accounts for a lot.

I'm not sure I follow your reasoning.
Why would those things make a difference?

 

[Swamppy]

I think perhaps a more beneficial test would be annealed and cases on there 3rd or 4th firing to see if the brass work hardening had more of an impact.

 

[Barelstroker]

I think perhaps a more beneficial test would be annealed and cases on there 3rd or 4th firing to see if the brass work hardening had more of an impact.

I see where you're coming from but, if there needs to be special circumstances in order to measure improvement then, I can't see the point. It either works in most reloaders situations or it doesn't.
I know for a fact that the AMP will stop season cracking but, there's an awful lot of guys being honest & saying they can't measure a difference in terms of accuracy or repeatability.
Who's being honest, & who's pulling their pud?

 

[SporterII]

Barrelstroker
I think work hardening can be relative to how far dimensions change thru each process. Firing, sizing.

 

[Barelstroker]

Barrelstroker
I think work hardening can be relative to how far dimensions change thru each process. Firing, sizing.

I agree however, if it works, shouldn't it work in most situations.
If the brass gets hot enough then, the harder the brass, the faster & more it will anneal but, does that make a positive change?

 

[BuLLet]

If it makes the brass last longer without necks splitting, that's a positive.

More loadings is what I'm chasing annealing for.

I agree however, if it works, shouldn't it work in most situations.
If the brass gets hot enough then, the harder the brass, the faster & more it will anneal but, does that make a positive change?

 

[LA260]

Ahh, the good ol' days when powder and primers were everywhere and it was possible to run these tests for fun without loosing sleep over it. I stopped SB annealing cause one it didn't really do anything measurable for the type of shooting I do and two, in my years of reloading I've never had split necks but had plenty of loose primer pockets and case head separation. Things might've been different if I annealed with AMP.

 

[BuLLet]

I just got an AMP and annealed a little under 300 cases where some had split necks (canned those). I'm hoping the annealing will extend the life of what I have left. I'll start doing it on the other loadings as a regular process from now forwarded. Long brass life is a plus right now with component shortages.