Annealers, please throw your knowledge in. Thank you

[Clearlight]

AMP . Consistent neck tension every time and low ES .

 

[Milo 2.5]

How is it more consistent.

How about you explaining how a single torch unit blowing flame on a spinning case can even come close to what an AMP can do.

 

[MarinePMI]

How is it more consistent. It's anealing not rocket science.

Because there's no flame that changes as the tank empites. Kind of hard to be consistent when the pressure keeps changing (even with a secondary pressure regulator). Never mind the bullshit of setting up the annealeez (and the inevitable loss of a couple of cases, fine tuning the settings). Granted, if you only shoot one caliber/case, then it's as not a big of a deal. But many, like you and I, shoot a wide variety of cases, which means you're constantly resetting the adjustments on the annealeez.

Annealing ain't rocket science, but adjusting the annealeez borders on model rocket science.

• Do get tempilaq 750° paint
• Dont smell it.
• Do let it dry completely, it will turn powdery looking.
• Dont need to paint the entire case, just a small line down the neck and just over the edge of the shoulder to the case body. The more you put on the more you have to scrape off later.
• Do heat until it gets clear.
• Dont worry about the 450° for the bottom of the case, its even harder to scrape off and Ive never found a situation where it was needed even for 300bo. I will use the rim of another case to knock the big cooked tempilaq parts off and then a spin in 0000 steel wool to buff it clean.
• Do heat up 10 or more cases just to get it warmed up before you start the actual cases, I keep a bag of 20 little 223s to run through real fast but anything will work.
• Dont hold on to them too long after they cook
• Do use red and yellow jaw combo (they have stickers on the side) for 223 and for .473 case head stuff I use a two red jaws.
• Dont over cook them, when it turns from a seam foamy green to clear they are hot, cooking until it turns black is too much.
• Do center the middle of the shoulder in the space so that the smaller neck sticking out from center will hopefully finish at the same time. If the neck is centered it will suck up way more energy too fast and the shoulder will be left uncooked. The bigger the case the lower on the shoulder you can go.
• Dont worry about the water cool coil, Ive never had an overheat and Ive done it outside in 100 degree weather and Ive done 250 at a time with no overheating. For batches of 50 you have zero issues.
• Do.... um Im not sure, I really like it and it goes fast. Using the jaw combos above 223 rem is 1.5 seconds, 223 lapua is 1.8, 6xc is 3.5. The rest I have written down but the small cases should be under 2 seconds and larger cases are somewhere from 2.5-3.5 generally.

Need I say more?

The AMP is the same program, same temperature every time, from the first case, to the last. I'd say that makes the AMP MUCH MORE consistent.

Horses for courses. If you're content with the Annealeez, please, drive on. But don't put rhetoric and personal preference over solid simple logic. The AMP is just more consistent...but at a much higher cost. Whether that level of consistency is worth it to someone, is up for them to decide.

 

[MarinePMI]

To the OP, if you're curious about the Annealeez, there are plans available on the internet to build one yourself. I think the total cost in parts is around $100 (and a long three week boat ride from China). Anyone with some basic skills and two working opposing thumbs can put one together (hardest part was cutting the lip off the 8" cake pan used for the drum).

I went this route before the Annealeez was even offered commercially. Does it work? Absolutely, but you will not have the batch to batch consistency that the AMP provides. Is that a big deal? I guess it depends on how often, and how many cases you plan to anneal at one time. I buy brass in 500-1000 case lots (so the lot #'s are all the same). As such, I tend to anneal as I go through the cases; rotating boxes of a hundred to two hundred cases at a time (I usually have 300-400 cases in use at any given time). That being the case, I tend to anneal after every reloading, and do so in 100-200 rd batches. With an Annealeez, I would see variations between the batches due to the flame/bottle pressure differences between annealing runs.

With the AMP I do not see this.

If you're pocket book can't support an AMP, then an Annealeez will work, but you may need to work in larger batches to ensure consistency. It will still work, but you're loading practices and processes will have to change to accommodate your gear. The AMP just allows me a greater freedom (and consistency) in when I anneal, and how big the batches of cases are when doing so.

There's no free lunch here. You can make either work. You just have to decide on where you and what you put your money towards.

 

[Milo 2.5]

So I am venturing into shoot prs matches amongst shooting just for fun. I have the chance to pick up a amp Annealer for 900$ with two pilots, is it worth the money compared to say annealerz propane machine? I will be doing 6.5x47, 223 and 308 and maybe random brass for my friends. 600$ price difference could help me buy a better powder dispense system and other gear.

As shooters we buy a lot of gadgets thinking we need them. My first annealer was a Giraud, I double torched it and it became a machine, and I liked it and thought gains were achieved. I now own an AMP, way simpler, and more consistent IMO, but way slower.
That said, there are BR shooters that rebarrel, put 100 pcs of brass in service, never anneal in 20 firings and shoot groups we dream of with that brass.
I got into LR shooting with a 6.5x284, I had a 10-10 scale, RCBS elec trimmer, no annealer, rockchucker, it's doubtful that much of what I have today has resulted in better ammo really. But what I have makes life easier and I feel good about what I do use, so I can justify it, plus my gun budget is friggin high.
By the sound of it, you are going to own an AMP, and the better powder system,lol
If money is the concern, I'd buy the scale system, and hold off on the cheaper annealer, improperly annealed brass creates it's own set of issues, and as a torch user for yrs, getting 100% of your cases annealed the same with a torch is virtually impossible.

 

[Sean the Nailer]

There's a lot of VERY good information in this thread. Indubitably so.

 

[Widowmaker300]

Bought the chargemaster combo 110V today off Natchez for 277$ shipped. I thought reloading would save money? ??

 

[spife7980]

Because there's no flame that changes as the tank empites. Kind of hard to be consistent when the pressure keeps changing (even with a secondary pressure regulator). Never mind the bullshit of setting up the annealeez (and the inevitable loss of a couple of cases, fine tuning the settings). Granted, if you only shoot one caliber/case, then it's as not a big of a deal. But many, like you and I, shoot a wide variety of cases, which means you're constantly resetting the adjustments on the annealeez.

Annealing ain't rocket science, but adjusting the annealeez borders on model rocket science.

• Do get tempilaq 750° paint
• Dont smell it.
• Do let it dry completely, it will turn powdery looking.
• Dont need to paint the entire case, just a small line down the neck and just over the edge of the shoulder to the case body. The more you put on the more you have to scrape off later.
• Do heat until it gets clear.
• Dont worry about the 450° for the bottom of the case, its even harder to scrape off and Ive never found a situation where it was needed even for 300bo. I will use the rim of another case to knock the big cooked tempilaq parts off and then a spin in 0000 steel wool to buff it clean.
• Do heat up 10 or more cases just to get it warmed up before you start the actual cases, I keep a bag of 20 little 223s to run through real fast but anything will work.
• Dont hold on to them too long after they cook
• Do use red and yellow jaw combo (they have stickers on the side) for 223 and for .473 case head stuff I use a two red jaws.
• Dont over cook them, when it turns from a seam foamy green to clear they are hot, cooking until it turns black is too much.
• Do center the middle of the shoulder in the space so that the smaller neck sticking out from center will hopefully finish at the same time. If the neck is centered it will suck up way more energy too fast and the shoulder will be left uncooked. The bigger the case the lower on the shoulder you can go.
• Dont worry about the water cool coil, Ive never had an overheat and Ive done it outside in 100 degree weather and Ive done 250 at a time with no overheating. For batches of 50 you have zero issues.
• Do.... um Im not sure, I really like it and it goes fast. Using the jaw combos above 223 rem is 1.5 seconds, 223 lapua is 1.8, 6xc is 3.5. The rest I have written down but the small cases should be under 2 seconds and larger cases are somewhere from 2.5-3.5 generally.

Need I say more?

The AMP is the same program, same temperature every time, from the first case, to the last. I'd say that makes the AMP MUCH MORE consistent.

Horses for courses. If you're content with the Annealeez, please, drive on. But don't put rhetoric and personal preference over solid simple logic. The AMP is just more consistent...but at a much higher cost. Whether that level of consistency is worth it to someone, is up for them to decide.

Those does and donts of mine that I gave which you quoted are for the Annie, not the Annealeez...

And the annie is just as consistent once you find your setting. Youre paying 500 bucks to amp to find them for you. Sure I still have to run 10 cases through to make sure its warm but I also have an extra 500 bucks in my pocket for the trouble.

And if you did want to drop a grand on annealing you can fit the annie to a giraud annealer and get an automated induction for the cost of an plain amp, half the cost of an automated amp.

 

[MarinePMI]

My mistake. You make some valid points, but warming up an annealer is not something you have to do with an AMP. Is that worth a $500 difference? To some it is, to some it isn't. Shrug. As I said, horses for courses. Some of this does come down to personal preferences and what is "acceptable" to each individual. My response to you was done tongue-in-cheek, and half humorously. Not as a dig or pot shot at you.

It's nice to options though, no?

 

[Primus]

Except its not rocket science. All this honkey bullshit is just that. Anealing is annealing as long as you get to the right temp for the right amount of time, its exactly the same. Doesn't matter what method you use. It is not an exact science. We aren't heat treating space alloys that are being strapped to $400M rockets. Were simply making the metal more ductile so it doesn't work harden and split. That is it.

Everything else is bullshit. Take a metallurgy class and learn something before you go off about how this wiz bang machines does a simple process better..... it doesn't.

 

[M338]

Except its not rocket science. All this honkey bullshit is just that. Anealing is annealing as long as you get to the right temp for the right amount of time, its exactly the same. Doesn't matter what method you use. It is not an exact science. We aren't heat treating space alloys that are being strapped to $400M rockets. Were simply making the metal more ductile so it doesn't work harden and split. That is it.

Everything else is bullshit. Take a metallurgy class and learn something before you go off about how this wiz bang machines does a simple process better..... it doesn't.

He bought an AMP so he doesn’t need to take that class.

If it’s not for you so be it,but to say it’s not better than a gas torch,well.....nah your wrong.

 

[NVScout]

Id seriously consider spending less on your annealer if you dont already have a solid powder dispensing system. Id say for someone new to reloading and long range, the last piece of equipment you should be dumping $1K+ worth of cash on is an annealer. They're nice to have, but if you're using a RCBC kit balance beam scale and powder thrower, but have an AMP in the room, you've definitely allocated funds poorly. For someone looking to get good consistency and not blow the bank, look at the RCBS Chargemaster (1500 or Lite), and the reducing insert from here. If you're dead set on spending $1K, buy yourself a Fx120i scale and powder dispenser system. Believe me, the time savings from that will drastically out way the ones setting up an annealer.
If you're set on buying an annealer, honestly, the $600 you save buying a benchsource or even more buying an annealeez would be better spent on premium dies, a solid press, an electronic powder dispensing scale system, or a number of other items.
If you've got the cash, then by all means, buy the AMP, but if you dont have the items that will actually make a major difference first, Id say its not worth spending the money on one yet.

And to be fair, the benchsource takes me MAYBE 2min to setup and get going. making caliber specific collars, marking your adjustment knob, and having a propane tank with regulator set up are all ways to make changing calibers a breeze. But then again, once Im fully setup with everything I need, I will likely buy an AMP, but certainly not before then.

I like the collar idea ! Adjusting the torch heads is definitely the majority of time spent annealing on the bench source

 

[Airw4ves]

I like the collar idea ! Adjusting the torch heads is definitely the majority of time spent annealing on the bench source

Some use washers, but I just bought a small section of copper pipe, and sawed it off to rough length, then filed it down to the exact height. Now I just unscrew, toss on the caliber specific collar, toss on the clamp and set my angle (which is super easy when not trying to keep your height set too).
6.5 Guys had a video on some Benchsource tips.

 

[MarinePMI]

Except its not rocket science. All this honkey bullshit is just that. Anealing is annealing as long as you get to the right temp for the right amount of time, its exactly the same. Doesn't matter what method you use. It is not an exact science. We aren't heat treating space alloys that are being strapped to $400M rockets. Were simply making the metal more ductile so it doesn't work harden and split. That is it.

Everything else is bullshit. Take a metallurgy class and learn something before you go off about how this wiz bang machines does a simple process better..... it doesn't.

LOL! Drive on with your bad self then...

I love when people think the loudest voice in the room means they're the most correct voice in the room. Smh... Ignorance is bliss, so go fucking be blissful somewhere else.

 

[Clearlight]

Actually , the AMP guys are doing a fair bit of metallurgical testing , including Vickers testing on cases.
I can’t be assed doing all that , I have moonshine to drink n ammo to make ....

 

[Primus]

Hardness testing on anealed brass is a bit overkill. It is irellevent to the practical application which is softening the brass so it doesn't split. I have an entire lab that I could anneal, heat treat, Vickers test, vibration, shear strength, toughness testing, ext and then use spectral analysis and study the grain at my disposal. It would all be a massive waste of time because all I'm doing is heating a piece of brass to x degrees for x time. The window is so large that you only need to get close. Stop falling for marketing and bullshit.

 

[Milo 2.5]

Hardness testing on anealed brass is a bit overkill. It is irellevent to the practical application which is softening the brass so it doesn't split. I have an entire lab that I could anneal, heat treat, Vickers test, vibration, shear strength, toughness testing, ext and then use spectral analysis and study the grain at my disposal. It would all be a massive waste of time because all I'm doing is heating a piece of brass to x degrees for x time. The window is so large that you only need to get close. Stop falling for marketing and bullshit.

Who the fuck anneals to prevent split necks, you keep saying this. I split my 8th neck on Sat fireforming Dasher brass. That is 8 cases in 33 yrs of reloading, the bulk of the cracks occurred firing new brass, so faulty from the start.
Also, brass heats up fast, and keeps rising in temp, there is no maintaining a solid temp for x amount of time under flame.
Get over yourself.

 

[NICETRY]

Hardness testing on anealed brass is a bit overkill. It is irellevent to the practical application which is softening the brass so it doesn't split. I have an entire lab that I could anneal, heat treat, Vickers test, vibration, shear strength, toughness testing, ext and then use spectral analysis and study the grain at my disposal. It would all be a massive waste of time because all I'm doing is heating a piece of brass to x degrees for x time. The window is so large that you only need to get close. Stop falling for marketing and bullshit.

These guys did test. Interesting read if you have time. There is three parts to this.

Induction Annealing Brass | Our Research | AMP

View the latest articles from AMP Annealing. Get tips and tricks from our R&D. Here we upload articles to provide your the best possible information on innovations in the annealing process.

www.ampannealing.com

 

[Primus]

When you fire and then resize, you are work hardening the brass. This makes it brittle. To extend the brass life as well as make it easier to resize, you anneal. It softens the work hardend material and prevents splits.

Not sure why else you are annealing.

 

[Primus]

These guys did test. Interesting read if you have time. There is three parts to this.

Induction Annealing Brass | Our Research | AMP

View the latest articles from AMP Annealing. Get tips and tricks from our R&D. Here we upload articles to provide your the best possible information on innovations in the annealing process.

www.ampannealing.com

And like I said it's marketing bullshit targeted at ignorant people who don't know any better. I could spend $100k doing a full analysis of my door hinge, but for practical application, it's irrelevent.

 

[spife7980]

Not sure why else you are annealing.

I anneal in an attempt to hopefully return the brass to the same benchmark in hardness and to relieve the material stresses. Like most everyone on here that does it.

Preventing cracked necks is the last reason I do it. Like most everyone here.



Really the only thing seemingly ignorant in this thread is you claiming that the scientific studies that one company has performed and was gracious enough to share with us is just marketing bullshit (even if it was done in an attempt to demonstrate the benefits of their product).
If you want to turn your nose up at the science then feel free too, just dont claim others are ignorant for trying to learn and improve from it when you are the acting in the most ignorant manner of them all.




Edit (since its Nacho)


Queue the Primus retort :

 

[Primus]

You do realize the reason you remove the internal stresses is SO it doesn't crack and resizes easier right?

I laid out the science behind it. Got the degree to prove it. You need to check yourself.

 

[ballisticdaddy]

When you fire and then resize, you are work hardening the brass. This makes it brittle. To extend the brass life as well as make it easier to resize, you anneal. It softens the work hardend material and prevents splits.

Not sure why else you are annealing.

To keep consistent neck tension and shoulder bumping. I have been annealing for a few years using the Giraud and when I switched over to the AMP Mark II all of my dies needed to be adjusted as well as the neck bushings and expanding mandrels.

 

[spife7980]

You do realize the reason you remove the internal stresses is SO it doesn't crack and resizes easier right?

Thats a result that no one can argue against (and no one is yet you seem to think we are) but its not the why of why I do it.
This graph from that study you think is bullshit shows why. I anneal so that the 3rd firing is the same as the 11th firing. I would still anneal so that I got consistent results even if it didnt help with neck cracking.

The horse=consistent tension, the splitting necks=the cart. The cart comes after the horse for me. Most people arent annealing to prevent cracks, they are annealing to get repeatable results.

I laid out the science behind it. Got the degree to prove it. You need to check yourself.

I think thats the biggest issue in people relating to you in these forums. You think youre explaining stuff when you havent laid out anything other than that you have a litany of resources that you dont use and have a hard time relating to people.

 

[MarinePMI]

Nah @spife7980 , when ole boy Primus comes into a conversation here on the Hide I think of him as this... (the typical bloviating loud mouth, bag of hot air)

Then I think of the rest of us having a reasoned discussion of some topic of debate, and when realizing ole Primus is running his suck again, well, feel like this scene says it all...

 

[Ruskin]

This thread died out just when it was getting good.

 

[Milo 2.5]

This thread died out just when it was getting good.

WTF? Lol, when you find yourself in a relationship with a total twat, it is time to Run, not walk away.

 

[Ruskin]

WTF? Lol, when you find yourself in a relationship with a total twat, it is time to Run, not walk away.

Just having a little fun.

 

[Airw4ves]

Here, let me reignite some “discussion” among members.

Salt Bath Annealing - Does It Work? | Learn More | AMP

View the latest articles from AMP Annealing. Get tips and tricks from our R&D. Here we upload articles to provide your the best possible information on innovations in the annealing process.

www.ampannealing.com

 

[MK20]

I have the MRB annealer and it is awesome. It costs about 400 bucks and works very well for all calibers short of 50 BMG bases stuff. Well built and durable.

 

[Clearlight]

Here, let me reignite some “discussion” among members.

Salt Bath Annealing - Does It Work? | Learn More | AMP

View the latest articles from AMP Annealing. Get tips and tricks from our R&D. Here we upload articles to provide your the best possible information on innovations in the annealing process.

www.ampannealing.com

Thanks for posting that . Id heard that the AMP techs were doing some testing on salt baths , and it looks like
the truth is going to piss a lot of people off . Anyone contemplating using a salt bath for annealing MUST read
that article .

 

[earthquake]

Wow, lots of hatred for the AMP by a few folks here...and lots of love too, I see.

AMP is owned operated by a father & son from New Zealand. Both are really great guys and very smart. I've met and hung out with them a few times at SHOT Show.

If anyone wants to talk with them in person about their products, the son is going to be my Am at the GAP Grind this October at K&M. He's even bringing an annealer or 2 for the prize table and will have a live demo version set up. Come check it out yourself and argue with the inventor.

Expensive, sure, but being able to anneal hundreds of pieces of brass perfectly and in my house at the flip of a switch... priceless!

 

[IowaGeologist]

Does anybody just salt bath anneal or did that drop out of favor a long time ago? Was just looking at getting some parts together to start.

 

[spife7980]

Does anybody just salt bath anneal or did that drop out of favor a long time ago? Was just looking at getting some parts together to start.

Look at the post two up from yours. Read the link.

 

[Milo 2.5]

Just having a little fun.

So was I, it was not directed at you. These "what is best" posts turn into a joke because there is no one willing to take the time to make all things equal in a comparison test.
One thing I have learned in life, not everyone can make "one" thing work, but we all have it in us to make that "one" thing fail. I think that is why the AMP has gained a following, read the directions, buy the right pilots, choose the correct settings. You have taken yourself out of the equation.

 

[IowaGeologist]

Look at the post two up from yours. Read the link.

Ah, I should have read the last few posts before commenting, thanks. Interesting experiment.

 

[308pirate]

I send my brass to someone else to anneal. My time is too valuable to do it myself and the ROI of an annealer is far too long considering the dirt cheap cost of having someone else do it.

 

[Ruskin]

So was I, it was not directed at you. These "what is best" posts turn into a joke because there is no one willing to take the time to make all things equal in a comparison test.
One thing I have learned in life, not everyone can make "one" thing work, but we all have it in us to make that "one" thing fail. I think that is why the AMP has gained a following, read the directions, buy the right pilots, choose the correct settings. You have taken yourself out of the equation.

Well said. I think most of people bagging on AMP really just hate that the AMP unit is a bit pricey, otherwise they would own one.
For me the AMP offers ease of use, consistency, repeatably and speed, I don't think anyone can debate that.

 

[TheGerman]

I literally just opened the box that UPS dropped off with the automated annealing mate for my AMP

 

[Ruskin]

I literally just opened the box that UPS dropped off with the automated annealing mate for my AMP

You know you have to upload a video when you get it up and running, Right?

 

[TheGerman]

You know you have to upload a video when you get it up and running, Right?

Currently watching the setup video and well, LOL that may be a while

eta - Not too bad. Apparently you have to restart your PC to get the drivers to update right; thought I flashed my Mark II when all of a sudden the AZTEC mode was no longer available. Got it set up and it ran a few test cases. Just have to wait until my stand to hold the Dillon case feeder arrives next week to get it fully automated and I can take pics. Setup looked overwhelming but ended up being fairly easy. Putting a new trigger pack in my MP5K was harder.

 

[one shot ST]

I bought an AMP Mark II, first test on the shooting range, 5 rounds, mixed cases, some at 6th reload others more, different weight, I do the process through the test on some sacrifical cases, different weight, code generated was 0157 Peterson brass.
rem 260 24” inches.
usually my SD was on an average of 3.5 m/s.
here I‘ve 1.3

 

[C.R. Adams]

I'm not sure why the Annie Annealer is overlooked. I've been perfectly pleased with mine. runs $600 or so. get some templaque and use that to narrow down the time for the timer setting. Yes, the Amp is the Cadillac of annealers, but for someone just getting into annealing, the Annie is a less expensive way to get into Induction Annealing.

 

[Steel head]

I’m still cavemaning it with a torch, socket and drill.

 

[nutation]

I have tried several methods of annealing.

Salt bath annealing - dangerous, messy, tedious, slow, hard to keep the temperature of the salt constant
Torch, drill, socket, metronome app - tedious, but it works okay
Bench-Source annealer - fast, convenient, can be tricky to see the tempilaq turn while it's in the flame
Annie induction annealer - fast, safe, easy, precise