annealing and neck tension

CST

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Dec 31, 2002
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a lot of people say that a brass that was just annealed may not be as accurate than the next fired reload...
A freshly anneal neck is alot softer than something thats been reloaded 6 times///

Brass that was just annealed....is the neck tension gonna be as tight as a work hardened brass?
 
Re: annealing and neck tension

Work hardened (WH) brass is very brittle and stiff. You can size or seat a bullet into a WH case and it crack the neck and ruin the case. A properly annealed case will stretch. I have had cases that were WH and wouldn't hold a bullet because you couldn't size it down properly and some that you could barely get a bullet in them. So, a WH case isn't tighter or looser than an annealed case. An annealed case allows you to size it properly, and seat a bullet with the correct amount of tension. A WH case will have a lot of variances from case to case, so it's hard to be consistant from case to case, which will effect accuracy. This is why I like to anneal cases before WH sets in.
 
Re: annealing and neck tension

"Typically WH brass will have less springback ..."

Actually, the reverse is true. Soft brass has little to no springback.
 
Re: annealing and neck tension

+1 on the response of annealing before significant Work Hardening sets in. I anneal my 7WSM brass after every second firing, it seems to keep the neck tension consistent and the results are good so I'll keep doing it.

For what its worth, I've not split the neck of a single 7WSM case and I've been shooting the 7WSM for over 5 years now. I think the most reloads I got from a case before chucking them into the recycle bin is 10. I use my brass in lots and when a decent percentage of the brass lot is showing signs of loose primer pockets, the entire lot goes into the recycle bin.

I've burned out one barrel on my dual duty tactical/F-class 7WSM with 1,865 rounds through it. I'm on the second barrel on that rifle now with over 400 rounds down the pipe. My F-Class rig has over well over 900 rounds through it.

JeffVN
 
Re: annealing and neck tension

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fuzzball</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"Typically WH brass will have less springback ..."

Actually, the reverse is true. Soft brass has little to no springback. </div></div>

Wrong. WH brass is harder thus will not size as easy. Just as Chad said.
 
Re: annealing and neck tension

For example your loaded round dimension is .289...so you decide you want to use a neck bushing of .287. As the brass WHs then a .286 bushing may be needed to obtain the same neck tension..... Just an example. It works for me.
 
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Re: annealing and neck tension

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tangodown911</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fuzzball</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"Typically WH brass will have less springback ..."

Actually, the reverse is true. Soft brass has little to no springback. </div></div>

Wrong. WH brass is harder thus will not size as easy. Just as Chad said. </div></div>

Well define your use of the term "springback"...then.

The reason that neck tension varies in work hardened brass, and the reason that work hardened brass is so difficult to resize; is precisely because it is harder, and because it "springs back".

Annealed brass being in a softer state retains the effects of the sizing process and stays put, with little to no "spring back", making more consistent neck tension possible.....
 
Re: annealing and neck tension

I just figure that annealed necks are so bendable (compared to Worhardened) that they may not be able to hold on to a round hard enough in a semi
 
Re: annealing and neck tension

CST, it seems maybe you're overheating your annealded cases.

If you can bend an annealed neck with a thumbnail it is too soft! IF you have annealed/heated until you saw a red glow in a lighted room you've gone WAY overboard. Such necks will be dead soft and have little or no springback at all; that's usually bad for accuracy! And there is no way to get it back, we can't even work harden it enough to make any significant difference.

You know brass is a mixture of copper and zinc, right? Zink is a fairly hard metal but it's brittle. Copper isn't brittle but it's too soft for cases. Mixed correctly they become strong enough to hold the pressures, mallable enough to be easily shaped into cases and has enough hardness to provide a little elasticity, called springback. Springback allows case necks to hold bullets firmly AND to contract after firing so we can withdraw the empties easily. Excessive heating (red hot) burns zinc out of the alloy, leaving what is basically a soft copper neck with little or no springback.

Metalergists broadly catagorize brass as "hard", "half-hard" and "soft"; each depends on both the alloy AND its crystal structure. Case bodies are and should remain "hard" but the forward parts need to be "half-hard". Working the necks with firing/sizing changes the grain structure by moving the half-hard crystals towards hard. Hard brass is strong and has lots of springback but it soon splits so over worked necks won't last long without annealing. PROPER annealing will change the metal's crystalin structure back to half-hard and that's as far as we should go.

Neck annealing is a bit like shooting skeet; it's easy to do but it's much easier to miss the target!
 
Re: annealing and neck tension

I'm not going to do an essay on annealing myself, it's much too long and others have already done so. I'll try to find some good ones for you and link it here. Standby.

http://www.lasc.us/CartridgeCaseAnnealing.htm (Ignore the machine)
http://varmintal.com/arelo.htm#Anneal Search for the ANNEALING section

If you want a broader info base just put ANNEALING CARTRIDGE CASES in your browser.

Good luck.
 
Re: annealing and neck tension

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tangodown911</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fuzzball</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"Typically WH brass will have less springback ..."

Actually, the reverse is true. Soft brass has little to no springback. </div></div>

Wrong. WH brass is harder thus will not size as easy. Just as Chad said. </div></div>

Work hardened brass has more spring back than annealed thats a fact . However because annealed is softer and tougher and not as slippery it is harder to size than a case that has been fired a few times. As the case gets harder it starts to resist sizing and wants to spring back more to it's unsized diameter. At this point it can feel harder to size than annealed . So if only a small amount is sized it may just spring back without taking much change in diameter.
 
Re: annealing and neck tension

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: County</div><div class="ubbcode-body">. As the case gets harder it starts to resist sizing and wants to spring back more to it's unsized diameter. At this point it can feel harder to size than annealed . So if only a small amount is sized it may just spring back without taking much change in diameter. </div></div>

I agree with this. Thats why I said that typically a smaller bushing is need to obtain the desired neck tension.
smile.gif
 
Re: annealing and neck tension

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GSSP</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here is some before/after results from my freshly annealed 6.5x47 L brass fired 5x and annealed with the following system.

http://www.cartridgeanneal.com/

annealed 2735 av 40 ES 11.2 SD
Non-annealed 2739 av 41 ES 13.4 SD

No significant change in the group size

Alan</div></div>

Sample size for each group?
 
Re: annealing and neck tension

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: brasscow</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GSSP</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here is some before/after results from my freshly annealed 6.5x47 L brass fired 5x and annealed with the following system.

http://www.cartridgeanneal.com/

annealed 2735 av 40 ES 11.2 SD
Non-annealed 2739 av 41 ES 13.4 SD

No significant change in the group size

Alan</div></div>

Sample size for each group? </div></div>

10
 
Re: annealing and neck tension

GSSP based on your ES/SD readings your load-loading technique needs work, or you didn't anneal those cases, there is basically no change in the numbers.