Annealing Machine

idahojay

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Full Member
Minuteman
May 31, 2008
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Idaho Falls, Idaho
I designed and built this towards the end of last year. I took my general design from two different machines they had on the 6mmBR web site, then added several Jay upgrades.
My main game is shooting 1000yd F-Class open. As of late I have been getting into practical tactical precision shooting and find it MUCH more challenging and FUN. I put a lot of time into making match brass for consistency to compete with so I want it to last longer than 3 or four cycles. The other bennefit being consistency in neck tention loading to loading.
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This picture shows the 1/4" O-ring material I have mounted into the bottom plate and serves two functions. One and the main reason is to rotate the brass. As the upper plate rotates at 1 RPM the brass is just resting on the O-ring at 45 degrees so this rotates the brass very nicley, positivly and evenly. Second reason is to eliminate rough treatment of brass when dropping them in place.
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My torch heads are completly and easily ajustabe for heigth and rotation via thumb screws on there pillars. The center area is hogged out to serve a cooling function. As the flame with shorter calibers is close to the plate it heats up. By putting water in the center it will extract heat by boiling and not letting the plate get much over 220 deg. This is important for bearings but mostly by not letting the geared drive motor get to hot but it does have a built in fan helping to cool it. It can be loaded from the top and belted magnums from the bottom then the case rides up the ramp. It works like a champ at 1200 cases per hour.
 
Re: Annealing Machine

I have 300 in materials and about fifteen hours designing, making cad drawings and machining the parts. all Parts are machined up in cnc maching center and cnc lathe. It is built heavier than it needs to be. I beleave I could get the materials down to 200 each if I were to build more. It is only case specific to groups. I have been thinking about makeing the plate to accept bmg 50 cal and then have 3 or 4 sets of bushings so a person could do about any rifle case. A thinner top plate and the same bushing set up would allow a person to do pistol cases. If there is interest from people about buying these The best way to get the price as low as possible is for me to build as many as I could sell in one batch. If there is interest I will make up a batch. Just let me know.

Jay Seaquist
 
Re: Annealing Machine

Give me a PM and I'll give you my home # and /or e mail address for you to let me know if you decide to batch build these puppies.
Put me on the list for one -esp. if you can get the price in the "Brassomatic " ballpark.

Gary
 
Re: Annealing Machine

I would be ver interested in buying one from you if it has the ability to handle atleast 45-70 sized brass. That looks great.

If you were able to get teh material cost down to $200 then add you fee.... would be even better..

Russ
 
Re: Annealing Machine

I am very interrested....please let me know if you are gonna move on making some of these....ppc and 473 cases is what I would be interrested in
 
Re: Annealing Machine

I have started making my own also. It will be significantly less expensive as a group buy of some of the parts on the FCSA forum there was a guy that waterjet cut the top portion out for me it is a similar to this.
good video of it in action
http://www.zephyrdynamics.com/page3.html
http://zephyrdynamics.com///BOMLF4.jpg
using this as a speed control
http://www.bakatronics.com/shop/item.aspx?itemid=444
http://www.bakatronics.com/images/mx033.jpg
and a 12 volt truck window motor.
this is a few pics of one of the finished ones, I have not put mine together yet.
DSC00517.jpg

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diagram.jpg


Prices:
$ 60 - 1/8" Stainless table
$ 25 - Motor control
$ 56 - 1/8" Stainless rotary pieces - $ 33 for 1/8" Aluminum
$ 0 - Motor
$ 15 - Aluminum tubing for legs
$ 50 - Misc hardware
$ 25 - 12v 3 amp Power supply
TOTAL - $200 with the different motor and Aluminum pieces.
If your good with a router you could make one for less than $200. I'm also thinking that 1/16" Aluminum for the rotary pieces would futher reduce the cost.

yours is a real good copy of the Ken Light annealer and it is very nice.
http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html
video of a copy of Ken Lights machine
http://www.6mmbr.citymaker.com/f/JDK_Annealer.wmv
and it is about $350 and has interchangable upper tables for different groups of calibers all the way up to and including .50BMG




 
Re: Annealing Machine

The torch heads Are made by GOSS, are adjustable for three different flames without changing tips. Purchased from MSC industrial supply company @ $25.00 Each plus shipping.
As I stated in the second sentence of my post I took my general design from two different machines they had on the 6MMBR web site, then added several mods I felt it needed to make it a better machine. I beleave Ken Lights machine is a good one and directing people to buy his machine from him.
Ken Light Mfg
P.O. Box 2745
Lake Havasu City, Arizona 86405
1-800-790-3184
I was thinking about running up a batch in November but am just to busy. My other concerns rest in the liability relm. ken Light runs a manufacturing facility and will have liability insurance of his own. If this or any other annealer is not used correctly harm or distruction can and will accure.
So to everyone that had kind words to say about my machine, I THANK YOU.

Jay Seaquist

 
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I personally wouldn't be that concerned with the liabilty when it comes to the people on this site (we shoot lawyers here dont we?) Your design is great and your torch set up is top rate. If you could bring the cost out of the $300's I have no doubt this would be a good deal. I like it better than mine that is for sure but I just didn't have the $350. I think the bushing idea is also a good one.
 
Re: Annealing Machine

Jay Seaquist and The Mechanic have you heard of this?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One problem that folks do not realize is that brass hardness within a lot# may vary as much as 13% in rockwell hardness due to mixture of the alloy. This inconsistant Rockwell hardness gets blamed in a lot of different areas (other than the real cause) and annealing is one of them.

I had an engineering firm Rockwell test cases. The results were so depressing, I can't find the positive in it.

PMC brass made in Korea was much harder and consistant than Rem, Win, and Fed & Weatherby was real soft. OF course, there could only be one Lot# of brass tested, Lot # to lot # could also be a whole can of worms.

It would be very interesting to see an engineer that had unlimited access to Rockwell testing do an extensive test on brass. No doubt that this test would indeed shock us all with the little sampling that I had done.</div></div>

Quote was taken from another forum.
 
Re: Annealing Machine

Bullet94;
You bring up a good point. Keeping in mind that in all manufacturing prosses there are tollerances, this includes the chemical formalation of metals. I see a lot of chinese, korean and portugese molds in my business. You would not beleave how much the tool steel varies country to country. espesialy in the far east. As far as the brass (cases) keep in mind that they have been worked a lot before you ever recieve them. This work hardens the brass just like when you fire and reload them but much more. Also the casses are not worked evenly, but they do see annealing steps in there manufacture. In my oppinion as the consumer it is my goal to get extended brass life. I put a lot of time and effort into making match brass to compete with and would like it to be good for more than four cycles. I see three main advantages to annealing. Extended case life, uniform bullet pressure and a uniform gas seal, also stress relief (thats four). Also you want the main body and base of your casses harder than the neck, this is why you don't anneal the whole case. I lost count a few months back but know that I am around or over 20 cycles on my brass I compete with and have only lost two. I anneal every other fireing. Just my oppinion why I do what I do.
Jay Seaquist
 
Re: Annealing Machine

Jay Seaquist

Your annealing machine looks great and I believe that annealing extends case life. My concern about the brass itself has to due with uniform ammo since I believe this is related to accuracy. If the brass cases themselves aren’t uniform I don’t see how annealing would help this and I’d never read about testing the Rockwell hardness to prove this. I still believe annealing is useful but it might not give uniform neck tensions because the brass is not uniform. Just something to be aware of.
 
Re: Annealing Machine

"The torch heads Are made by GOSS, are adjustable for three different flames without changing tips. Purchased from MSC industrial supply company @ $25.00 Each plus shipping."

Jay

I tried to find the Goss heads on teh site and came up empty any chance you can post or OPM me a part number.

I Like your gizmo, and beleive that annealing is a very good thing, if done properly. It extends the useful life of the brass (I had over 8 reloads on my 7WSM F-Class brass), and helps to uniform the neck tension. I anneal my 7WSM Brass every 3 firings, and my .260 and .308 brass every 4 firings.

JeffVN
 
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I just got a Ken Light annealing machine. fairly similar to yours and mine works great, I was amazed how well it works. I like the looks of your torch set up better. Mine uses 2 propane bottles with torches on them. $400 for mine with 2 plates for diffrent calibers.

 
Re: Annealing Machine

Jeffvn: MSC part# 62317813 Phone#800-645-7270 Web: mscdirect.com

Bullet94: I trim the O.D. of my case necks after I fire form my brass, then anneal. This gives a uniform wall thickness and stress releaves. In my opinion this is about as uniform as one can get. However I am always willing to learn new tricks.

Bacarrat: Havent seen the Frankford Arsenal machine but am going to find it and take a look now that I know it's out there.

Montana: Thank you for the kind words. My general design was taken from the Ken Light machine. And there is no way I can compete with his price.

Jay Seaquist
 
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Aj300mag:
If it is personal use I will give you the drawings. I use MasterCam X Mr2. However I can translate them into many different formats, just tell me what you can read. My top plate is setup for 300winmag.

Jay Seaquist
 
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Bacarrat;
I checked out the Frankfort Arsenel annealer and think it is probably a very good deal for $ 140 on sale at optics planet. It has a mount for a second torch also. My concern is that I don't beleave it rotates the casses in there holes as the main plate rotates. It is my beleaf you need to do this to get true even heat. You must not get the brass over 950 degrees in any spot or you ruin the brass and becomes unsafe to fire. If I am correct in this asumption it would just take a little bit of rework to make it function correctly.

Jay seaquist
 
Re: Annealing Machine

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bullet94: I trim the O.D. of my case necks after I fire form my brass, then anneal. This gives a uniform wall thickness and stress releaves. In my opinion this is about as uniform as one can get. However I am always willing to learn new tricks. </div></div>

I think you might be right and your method is good. I thought I read about a gage somehow hooked to a seating die to measure the force required to seat a bullet. This might be related to neck tension with the difference being the brass makeup. You could always just sort your brass by which shoots the best too.
 
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Bullet94;
I use collet dies with a oversize I.D. rod to get very light neck tention on my cartridges I load for 1000yd F-Class. The neck tention is so light I cant use them in practical match's where I am feeding from the mag. The recoil pushes the bullet back in the case. You are absolutly correct that the harder the brass the hevier the tention at the same press fit. Thats a dang good idea about a pressure measuring pad of some sort. Thanks!!! I'm going to look into that.

Jay seaquist
 
Re: Annealing Machine

Jay there's two different ways of measuring bullet seating pressure. Some benchrest shooters have a system that uses wave washers to set pressure and a dial indicator on the seating stem. The idea is to maintain the indicator reading while seating bullets. IIRC K&M has such a system set up on their arbor press. The other system is made by the guy who runs RSI~ Pressure Trace (the chamber pressure measuring equipment). He has a load cell (strain gage) that you attach to the base you use with Wilson seater dies. The unit has a readout that gives you the pressure it took to seat bullets. You cull your loads by the amount of pressure it took to seat bullets. The RSI system is pricey!!!!!

K&M Arbor Press

RSI System
 
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Aj300mag;
Thank you for the info, my wife's going to have a fit when she see's the bill for this one. I will start kissing ass in advance. I am going with the RSI System. Looks like it would be much more consistent to me.
I will spend a little time over the weekend cleaning up my drawings and adding some notes. Then will send it to you.

Jay seaquist
 
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I love spending other people's money...........................
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Now all you need is a Juenke machine and your good to go.

My only concern with checking neck tension when bullet seating is that you sort the ammo it reflects a bell curve. How many rounds will you have to load to to get enough for a 60+ shot F-Class match? Annealing should make the majority of rounds consistant. Would be interesting if you'd post the results of what you find while using the gage and if you feel the ammo produces better scores.

I talked to the designer of Loadforce when I bought my Pressure Trace system. He had some interesting things to say about sorting ammo by neck tension and using the Loadforce.
 
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My real want for this is to be able to check and see what the results of other steps give me. Of course also to group the loads into general groups. You are right about how many loads you would have to do to get sixty that are extremly uniform. Also I am thinking this would alow me to increase the size some more on the center forming bar in my collet die and be able to read that I am still ever so lightly pressing in. I believe this would help compensate for other variables. My wife just walked in my office while I was on the shop floor and read this thread. The Jigs up. She's a good girl though.

Jay Seaquist