Annealing: Salt Bath vs Flame/Torch method

[viva la figa]

I have been doing a fair bit of research on building a bench top annealing machine. There are plenty of DIY ways to do it and I had all the parts researched and decided on. Right before I was about to purchase them all on amazon I read about Salt bath annealing.

What are the pros and cons of Salt Bath annealing? It seems to be a heck of a lot cheaper ($35 smelting pot and less than $10 in salt etc vs many hundreds of dollars for a commercial Torch annealing machine) and easier. The only cons seem to be that you can not automate the insert and extract of the brass into the salt bath....there by giving up some consistency and accuracy.

Have any of you done both?
What are the pros and cons of each?
Why are more people not doing the Salt bath method?

 

[Supersubes]

I know nothing about salt bath annealing, as ive never heard of the method. First thing that comes to mind though would be the need to rinse and then dry the brass afterwards, which is something I personally would avoid.


I use a non automated method and im into the whole setup for about $30, not including the cordless drill and a couple of inserts I spun up on the lathe.


You have a link to the salt bath method? Happy to learn something new.

 

[bruddah]

Interesting on the salt bath.

 

[Horns8491]

I didn’t read the whole thing but the first page was pretty interesting.

http://www.65creedmoor.com/index.php?topic=6019.0

 

[JoeBUtah]

I'd never heard of the salt bath method- very interesting; seems like if you were to follow the method that Horns8491 provides the link for, a pair of pliers would work for every size case you might have rather than building the case holder described. With a 5-6 second 'swish' through the salt, you're on to the next one...

edited moments later; I watched the guy's video further down in the post; he's pretty fast!

 

[Clearlight]

While I admire creativity and resourcefulness , it ( salt bath annealing )
sounds laden with opportunities for danger . Far and away the best
annealing device I have ever used , is the AMP annealer .

My results with the AMP have been spectacular to say the least : single
digit ES is expected every time . If salt bath annealing was the best option ,
Lapua et al would be using it . They don’t , instead using a scaled up version
of the AMP induction annealer .

I appreciate not not everyone wants to drop $1 k on an annealer , in your position
I’d suggest sticking to a gas system . Quite a few guys runnng them with success
here , sounds like you have done enough research to make it work .

 

[canezach]

While I can appreciate people trying new things, since that’s where we see a lot of great, innovative ideas, I think I’ll stick with my Annealeez. I read the salt bath thing when it was first posted and I like the idea. I prefer my Annealeez because it’s automated, so I can set it and just check it from time to time while I’m doing something else on the bench.

With that said, I’d venture a guess that the reason Lapua or some other brass maker doesn’t use it has less to do with the capabilities of the salt bath annealer and more to do with efficiency of time. I imagine there is some automated system that anneals their brass rather than someone standing there doing it by hand, so if their system is in place and it works for them, changing to an equally effective method that doesn’t save them time or money isn’t going to cause them to change over.

 

[viva la figa]

While I can appreciate people trying new things, since that’s where we see a lot of great, innovative ideas, I think I’ll stick with my Annealeez. I read the salt bath thing when it was first posted and I like the idea. I prefer my Annealeez because it’s automated, so I can set it and just check it from time to time while I’m doing something else on the bench.

With that said, I’d venture a guess that the reason Lapua or some other brass maker doesn’t use it has less to do with the capabilities of the salt bath annealer and more to do with efficiency of time. I imagine there is some automated system that anneals their brass rather than someone standing there doing it by hand, so if their system is in place and it works for them, changing to an equally effective method that doesn’t save them time or money isn’t going to cause them to change over.

I think you hit the nail on the head and got it exactly correct.

I like the idea of the salt bath because if you want something to be a certain temp then just dip it into a liquid that is that temp and BAM...you got that thing at the temp you want. The brass can never get hotter than the liquid...the heat (still at that same temp) can radiate up the length of the case and anneal the rest of the case but that is a concern using the torch method too!

The only other variable that I can see is each time you pull the brass out of the bath a little of the liquid salt stays with it and there by slowly lowers the level of the salt bath and your level of heat that reaches the brass. The salt level can easily be topped up I suppose.

Though this is all hundreds of dollars cheaper than the torch method I like the ability to do other things while I anneal. I think I will be more willing to anneal every time if it takes less effort!

 

[viva la figa]

http://www.65creedmoor.com/index.php?topic=6019.0

 

[spife7980]

I didn’t read the whole thing but the first page was pretty interesting.
http://www.65creedmoor.com/index.php?topic=6019.0

Echooooo

http://www.65creedmoor.com/index.php?topic=6019.0

I think its a nice system and idea but I really dislike the idea of me bumping the table and spilling it everywhere. My shins are covered in scars from every table leg I have ever passed by.

I like my annie because I dont have to worry about it scalding me.

If youre comfortable with the process I see no reason not to try it, especially for the price in comparison.

 

[eodusa]

The Annie annealer is quite reasonable. [video]http://www.fluxeon.com/Annie.html[/video].

Shameless plug. No flames. Very repeatable.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[mdmp5]

Annealing with lead is something that has been around for a while,although not a very common way of doing it. There is no advantage to doing it that way, unless it is easier for you to do so based upon what equipment you have and your budget. It’s just another way of doing it

 

[PatMiles]

Annealing with lead is something that has been around for a while,although not a very common way of doing it. There is no advantage to doing it that way, unless it is easier for you to do so based upon what equipment you have and your budget. It’s just another way of doing it

Annealing with lead? Ya lost me.

 

[mdmp5]

Annealing with lead? Ya lost me.

Using molten lead. It’s the same idea as the “salt bath”. The name may be somewhat misleading but it is a hot liquid slurry that you just dip the brass in for a few seconds. You do the same with lead except it’s not as hot

 

[PatMiles]

Using molten lead. It’s the same idea as the “salt bath”. The name may be somewhat misleading but it is a hot liquid slurry that you just dip the brass in for a few seconds. You do the same with lead except it’s not as hot

I'm not trying to challenge you in any way, shape or form, but how does one get the lead off of the brass cartridge? Just curious.

 

[mdmp5]

It shouldn’t stick to the brass since it’ is heavy and the surface tension is very high. If Any small specks remain, they will just fall off when it cools

 

[Matt in Virginia]

AMP...

 

[rijndael]

Is lead exposure a concern with lead annealing? I've certainly read about exposure issues from people that cast bullets.

 

[wapiti16b]

I have been doing a fair bit of research on building a bench top annealing machine. There are plenty of DIY ways to do it and I had all the parts researched and decided on. Right before I was about to purchase them all on amazon I read about Salt bath annealing.

What are the pros and cons of Salt Bath annealing? It seems to be a heck of a lot cheaper ($35 smelting pot and less than $10 in salt etc vs many hundreds of dollars for a commercial Torch annealing machine) and easier. The only cons seem to be that you can not automate the insert and extract of the brass into the salt bath....there by giving up some consistency and accuracy.

Have any of you done both?
What are the pros and cons of each?
Why are more people not doing the Salt bath method?

In keeping with the OP's question , I'd like to know the proper way to anneal with the salt bath method ? , what indicators ( tempilaque , flame color / moot !, etc... ) are the most reliable ?.
I can understand that for the home reloader that this may be a very economical method but how do you tell if you have achieved the proper anneal at the neck shoulder junction without over annealing the rest of the case ? .
I'd really like to try this for economic reasons as I really cannot afford a Bench Source or AMP or Annie but not at the expense of my LAPUA brass !
If someone can educate me on the proper procedure for Salt Bath Annealing I may have found an cost friendly solution to my annealing woes .

 

[spife7980]

In keeping with the OP's question , I'd like to know the proper way to anneal with the salt bath method ? , what indicators ( tempilaque , flame color / moot !, etc... ) are the most reliable ?.
I can understand that for the home reloader that this may be a very economical method but how do you tell if you have achieved the proper anneal at the neck shoulder junction without over annealing the rest of the case ? .
I'd really like to try this for economic reasons as I really cannot afford a Bench Source or AMP or Annie but not at the expense of my LAPUA brass !
If someone can educate me on the proper procedure for Salt Bath Annealing I may have found an cost friendly solution to my annealing woes .

Did you read the linked threads? When the liquid is 900 degrees it doesnt take very long to put that heat into the brass, 4-6 seconds they say. Just like with torch (or any) method there is no exacting. You could put some 400 on the case body if youre worried about heat migration but at those temps and brief exposure it shouldnt travel very far up at all.

I didn’t read the whole thing but the first page was pretty interesting.
http://www.65creedmoor.com/index.php?topic=6019.0

http://www.65creedmoor.com/index.php?topic=6019.0

 

[rijndael]

But the fact that this is salt and not lead makes lead poisoning a non factor.

My comment was for mijp5 who discussed using lead instead of salt. I was trying to point out that it may come with an added hazard.

 

[spife7980]

My comment was for mijp5 who discussed using lead instead of salt. I was trying to point out that it may come with an added hazard.

Good point, I was just looking at the recent posts and didnt get the continuity of a full read on the thread, I deleted my off base comments since you were essentially already saying the same thing I was trying to.

 

[wapiti16b]

Did you read the linked threads? When the liquid is 900 degrees it doesnt take very long to put that heat into the brass, 4-6 seconds they say. Just like with torch (or any) method there is no exacting. You could put some 400 on the case body if youre worried about heat migration but at those temps and brief exposure it shouldnt travel very far up at all.

I did not , I now have , I will be ordering all the components after Christmas .
Thank You ! , Merry Christmas & Happy New Year !

 

[Mordamer]

I have been experimenting with salt bath annealing for the last month.

I made a bunch of wood shell holders to hold cases to dip into the salt. Took me about 15 minutes per wood paddle to make them. I made one for .223, .308 sized cases, and magnum sized cases. I just drilled the holes to where the cases fit snug. I press the cases in until the head of the brass is flush with the wood paddle. I then dip the cases into the molten salt until the paddle touches the top of the smelting pot. This gives me a very consistent anneal depth. I wait 5 seconds and pull the brass out, dip the case mouths in a bowl of water briefly then dump them all out of the paddle into another bowl. You need to dip them in water to solidify and flake off any salt left on the necks. You don't have to rinse or dry them if you do this correctly as the heat in the brass evaporates the remaining water droplets. I can anneal 100 pieces of brass in less than 10 minutes because I am doing up to 7 in every dip with my .223 and .308 paddles. I also sprayed the bottom of the paddles with some heat resistant paint. Switching calibers is as easy as grabbing the other paddle and brass.

There are basically no consumables with this method. You simply turn the pot off when you are done and the salt solidifies. Next go around you plug it in and wait for the salt to warm up.

Wear safety glasses and make sure there is no water on brass when you dip it or you will get the frozen turkey in a deep fryer affect.

Here is a pick of my setup.

 

[Mordamer]

I think you hit the nail on the head and got it exactly correct.

I like the idea of the salt bath because if you want something to be a certain temp then just dip it into a liquid that is that temp and BAM...you got that thing at the temp you want. The brass can never get hotter than the liquid...the heat (still at that same temp) can radiate up the length of the case and anneal the rest of the case but that is a concern using the torch method too!

The only other variable that I can see is each time you pull the brass out of the bath a little of the liquid salt stays with it and there by slowly lowers the level of the salt bath and your level of heat that reaches the brass. The salt level can easily be topped up I suppose.

Though this is all hundreds of dollars cheaper than the torch method I like the ability to do other things while I anneal. I think I will be more willing to anneal every time if it takes less effort!

I believe I could probably do 500 pieces of .308 brass before there would be any significant change in the salt level in the smelter.

 

[Mordamer]

Also, this thermometer works fine for check salt bath temp. https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B072Q6DMXJ?psc=1&ref=yo_pop_mb_pd

I have found that the Lee pot hits a steady state temp of about 950 degrees if it is filled to the level in my above picture and left on the highest setting.

 

[whatsupdoc]

I have tried the templaq torch method and the salt bath method, for me the salt bath provides a more precise temperature control that cannot be achieved with a torch.

The salt method can be dangerous, so can reloading.

How do they heat treat aluminum?

Salt Bath

 

[JMcBurn]

I have tried the templaq torch method and the salt bath method, for me the salt bath provides a more precise temperature control that cannot be achieved with a torch.

The salt method can be dangerous, so can reloading.

How do they heat treat aluminum?

Salt Bath

How do they heat treat a large amount of stuff? The fact is that salt bath helps significantly with a number of factors of things like corrosion and specific heat control of both peak temperature and specific location of heat applied.

In some hardened tool steel parts I use they do an overall heat treat with salt bath then do different tempering or annealing of specific areas of the parts with salt bath.

 

[biffj]

Lapua doesn't use the salt bath method now because the induction setup is quicker for them and the technology is around. Back in the dark ages all the manufacturers used lead or salt pots for annealing of the cases in manufacture. Its tried and true and was used for a very long time.
Is it safe? I'm sure there are possible dangers as there are with anything that reaches temps high enough to burn skin. Lead vapor is pushed by the eco freaks as a danger at room temp but reality says its not such a problem as they imply at the temps we deal with it....just molten and less than 1500 deg F. Lead is not water and it doesn't readily vaporize below its boiling point. Like mercury it is much less hazardous in its metallic form than it is in compounds like oxides, sulfides, nitrates etc.
The salts used for molten salt heat treating can have some issues with water just like any other molten material but they are not especially corrosive, explosive or otherwise dangerous when used properly. It is an excellent way of insuring that the temp is correct for a large number of parts and that it will be consistent from start to end. With induction there can be differences in temp from one to the next depending on the exact location of the parts in the coil. For most real uses it shouldn't be an issue but it can happen.

Frank

 

[Emouse]

Induction annealers are available at sensible money to the home reloader. Shop around and be pleasantly surprised

 

[spife7980]

Induction annealers are available at sensible money to the home reloader. Shop around and be pleasantly surprised

Yep, 500 for the Annie. You have to sit there and be engaged with it unlike a big hopper giraud but you can outfit a giraud with an Annie for the same price as an amp with which you still have to be actively engaged with. Sure I tempilaq still the first time to test but I don’t have to buy a case guide which is even more savings.

 

[falco]

I have a Giraud and recently started using the salt bath system. I am leaning towards the salt bath due to the temperature control that the system affords. The thermocouple indicates the exact temperature of the liquid (within the error of the sensor and pyrometer), I use a cheap metronome to count the immersion time. I know the temperature and time. The Giraud required more "art" than science. Whether using Tempilaq or watching the flame in a darkened room, I didn't know if I was actually annealing, doing nothing or possibly damaging the cases. The downside is that the Lee melting pot is challenged to keep a constant 500-550C. This is due to the brass acting as a heat sink, constantly removing heat from the salt. Today I did about 75 6.5 Creedmoor cases and 50 300WM. The 300WM really pulled the heat out of the bath. I am putting together a PID controller that should solve temperature control problem.

 

[Yondering]

I have a Giraud and recently started using the salt bath system. I am leaning towards the salt bath due to the temperature control that the system affords. The thermocouple indicates the exact temperature of the liquid (within the error of the sensor and pyrometer), I use a cheap metronome to count the immersion time. I know the temperature and time. The Giraud required more "art" than science. Whether using Tempilaq or watching the flame in a darkened room, I didn't know if I was actually annealing, doing nothing or possibly damaging the cases. The downside is that the Lee melting pot is challenged to keep a constant 500-550C. This is due to the brass acting as a heat sink, constantly removing heat from the salt. Today I did about 75 6.5 Creedmoor cases and 50 300WM. The 300WM really pulled the heat out of the bath. I am putting together a PID controller that should solve temperature control problem.

A PID controller will help some, but those tiny little 4lb Lee pots are pretty wimpy and your salt bath may still lose too much heat into the cases. Their 20 lb pot is pretty cheap, and the additional capacity and larger heating element will make a big difference in maintaining temperature. I have both and the difference between them is huge. Of course you can use the PID controller with either one.

 

[07yzryder]

http://www.annealeez.com/dbprod/annealeezannealer.asp

275 for the annealer. Much cheaper then most other options and works like a champ!

 

[vitalemj]

Here is a pick of my setup.

Mordamer, this looks interesting from the consistency aspect. I see it says 5-6 seconds is long enough. How long can the tray stay in the salt bath before hear transfer becomes an issue? Is there enough time to let one sit submerged while you fill a second tray or would the 10 or 15 seconds that would take be too long and cause issues with over annealing?

 

[Mordamer]

Mordamer, this looks interesting from the consistency aspect. I see it says 5-6 seconds is long enough. How long can the tray stay in the salt bath before hear transfer becomes an issue? Is there enough time to let one sit submerged while you fill a second tray or would the 10 or 15 seconds that would take be too long and cause issues with over annealing?

10 to 15 seconds would overheat the brass I believe. I wouldn't want to go longer than 7 seconds. The heat transfers rapidly through the brass.

 

[vitalemj]

I can anneal 100 pieces of brass in less than 10 minutes because I am doing up to 7 in every dip with my .223 and .308 paddles.

Also, this thermometer works fine for check salt bath temp. https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B072Q6DMXJ?psc=1&ref=yo_pop_mb_pd

I have found that the Lee pot hits a steady state temp of about 950 degrees if it is filled to the level in my above picture and left on the highest setting.

Thank for the info, this is exactly the general types of details I wanted to know before experimenting with the salt bath idea.