Annealing wrecked my groups

[BLKWLFK9]

So, my lapua dasher brass got its first annealing on an AMP annealer after 3 firings. The same lot of bullets, primers, powder, same powder charge, same exact seating depth. I had about 40 rounds left over from the 2x fired brass. Those still group 1 hole. the annealed brass is shooting about .75-1 moa. Of course, i figure this out 1 day before leaving for a match. I would use my barrel tuner to dial in the groups again but then i'd be dipping into my rounds i need for the match. Thank god i have an option. Threw my 6.5cm barrel on the AI, zeroed the berger 140 hybrid ammo, and its shooting 1 hole as usual. I hate not being able to shoot my dasher but oh well.

Has anyone else experienced this? i found a thread on Accurate Shooter that seemed like someone else has experienced this. The conclusion was, i need to play with the seating depth to tune it back in, then after a couple firings, the original seating depth will work again.

 

[PinesAndProjectiles]

Could the annealing have effected the neck tension and now you possibly have less neck tension, in turn causing less velocity? I would think you could see this with a chrony.

 

[BLKWLFK9]

I should have mentioned, the velocity average was exactly the same, and SD's were around 4 fps, ES of 9. Nothing changed as far as velocity

 

[mbeavers1]

So need a bit more info:
1. Basic process - is it tumble, anneal, size, chamfer, charge, seat?
2. How are you setting neck tension - using expander button or mandrel
3. Have you checked headspace and CHTO to confirm?
4. Neck lube? Possible you used/forgot between runs?
5. Anything different in setup, maybe new scale?

Im with. Something has changed your neck tension. This is why I anneal every firing and with the amp it takes minimal time.

 

[Terry of illinois]

How many rounds do you have down range on barrel ?you might want to check bad to lands. On my barrel it changes about .004 for every 100 rounds imo .

 

[spife7980]

Did you run a brush through the necks? Ive taken to doing that when I anneal, helps even out the bullet grip case to case after annealing makes the inner surface crusty.
I anneal every firing now, I dont like these differences all of the sudden.

 

[BLKWLFK9]

corn cob tumble, anneal, size (same headspace as usual), neck turn mandrel (.002) neck tension, tumble, chamfer and debur, charge, seat.

Nothing different than normal

ive got 847 rounds down the tube. i would think it was the throat moving but the old rounds left over that are the same seating depth still shoot as they should.

no brush down the neck

 

[A&8's]

I listened to your podcast this morning on the drive to work and heard you mention this. The 1st thing I thought of was, like Spife mentioned, possibly different bullet grip from not brushing the inside of the neck. Personally, I anneal then tumble.

 

[1fliride]

Unless you are stainless steel tumbling, a coating of carbon is on the inside diameter of the neck. After annealing, it hardens and causes erratic tension. Despite the "neck tension" you desire, this changes with the condition of the neck surface.

 

[mbeavers1]

I SS tumble, anneal, size, then tumble again. Interesting thought to anneal then tumble.

1. Since I SS tumble, the carbon should all be removed. Would you still recommend to anneal then tumble?
2. My brass lands in soft dirt at every match. Do you see a little bit of dust affecting my AMP if I don't clean before annealing.

Sorry....dont mean to hijack.

 

[Milo 2.5]

A simple question would be, did your seating force change after this anneal?
I don't want to influence your process, but I anneal every firing, I just make that my baseline, adj accordingly.

 

[BLKWLFK9]

Not that I noticed. Seating felt fine

 

[whatsupdoc]

Unless you are stainless steel tumbling, a coating of carbon is on the inside diameter of the neck. After annealing, it hardens and causes erratic tension. Despite the "neck tension" you desire, this changes with the condition of the neck surface.

You may have something here, I SS tumble, anneal, resize, ultrasonic clean to remove the lube. My necks are spotless and never have had any issues.
A guy I know wipes the necks inside and out at the range then resizes. He tried annealing but his groups blew up so he does not bother.

Strange thing is you would think his SD and velocity would change due to the annealing but it seems that is not the case.


@BLKWLFK9 take like five annealed cases and run them through the resizing process (size neck/expand neck) four or five times then load them and see if there is an improvement. This should work harden the necks.

 

[samb300]

My thought is that annealing would cause the necks to have more tension after sizing, not less. As brass hardens and is not annealed, it springs back less and less. When brass is annealed it becomes softer, so it will spring back more. If you're using the same 0.002" mandrel after FL sizing, my guess is you have 0.0005 - 0.001" more neck tension than the brass that hasn't been annealed.

Why that would cause groups to open up to 1" on a Dasher...I have no idea. The talk above about ID neck carbon being hardened during annealing is a very interesting concept to me. Historically I have wet SS tumbled my brass prior to annealing and FL sizing, but was considering moving to dry tumbling instead for ease and for "keeping the ID of the necks lubed with carbon".

I haven't had issues with the squeaky clean necks like some have due to SS tumbling, but I dry tumble with Flitz in the media after FL sizing, so that does add some lube to the ID of the clean necks.

 

[Milo 2.5]

Not that I noticed. Seating felt fine

I really think it is a neck tension variance that is causing your issue.
Here is a couple pics, I was having issue with a Dasher shooting lights out @ 500, but at 1K it faltered. So I ran a test using a smaller bushing. The pic on left is using a .266" bushing, disregard the farthest left hit on the plate, that was a sighter. There are 4 shots on it, though my aimpoint was visible, picking up the hits was hard, the sun was directly behind the target at 5:30 am.
The right target was shot using a .265" bushing, it makes that much difference.

 

[Milo 2.5]

My thought is that annealing would cause the necks to have more tension after sizing, not less. As brass hardens and is not annealed, it springs back less and less. When brass is annealed it becomes softer, so it will spring back more. If you're using the same 0.002" mandrel after FL sizing, my guess is you have 0.0005 - 0.001" more neck tension than the brass that hasn't been annealed.

Why that would cause groups to open up to 1" on a Dasher...I have no idea. The talk above about ID neck carbon being hardened during annealing is a very interesting concept to me. Historically I have wet SS tumbled my brass prior to annealing and FL sizing, but was considering moving to dry tumbling instead for ease and for "keeping the ID of the necks lubed with carbon".

I haven't had issues with the squeaky clean necks like some have due to SS tumbling, but I dry tumble with Flitz in the media after FL sizing, so that does add some lube to the ID of the clean necks.

Annealing makes brass softer, unless outside interferences are present, you should add tension.

 

[samb300]

Annealing makes brass softer, unless outside interferences are present, you should add tension.

Agreed. But in this case he is FL sizing, THEN using a 0.002"-under diameter (0.241") mandrel. That technique means you size the neck tighter than what you want, then open it up with the mandrel.

So the annealed brass neck ID would open up to 0.241" with the mandrel, then spring back to 0.2405" or 0.2400".

The hardened brass neck ID would open up to 0.241" with the mandrel, then it might only spring back a few tenths, if any at all. So it would in effect have less tension than the annealed brass.

 

[Milo 2.5]

Agreed. But in this case he is FL sizing, THEN using a 0.002"-under diameter (0.241") mandrel. That technique means you size the neck tighter than what you want, then open it up with the mandrel.

So the annealed brass neck ID would open up to 0.241" with the mandrel, then spring back to 0.2405" or 0.2400".

The hardened brass neck ID would open up to 0.241" with the mandrel, then it might only spring back a few tenths, if any at all. So it would in effect have less tension than the annealed brass.

I see what you are saying and it makes sense, but IMO, being softer now, are the numbers linear?
I am not a fan of arbor press setups, but one in this case with a gauge would answer most of the op's questions.

 

[samb300]

I see what you are saying and it makes sense, but IMO, being softer now, are the numbers linear?
I am not a fan of arbor press setups, but one in this case with a gauge would answer most of the op's questions.

I don't think it's linear, and I'm purely speculating at the springback numbers. It might take 10+ firings to have zero springback, I have no idea.

My only thought was with the FL size + mandrel method, the annealed pieces might have more tension than the un-annealed pieces.

Another way to confirm would be to use a set of 0.0001" gage pins to verify the actual ID of the sized and mandrel'd necks.

Maybe the very short neck of the Dasher is what is manifesting itself as the issue, maybe it's more sensitive to tension? I still can't believe it would be shooting 1MOA, all joking aside I didn't think that was even possible with a Dasher.

 

[Howland]

Agreed. But in this case he is FL sizing, THEN using a 0.002"-under diameter (0.241") mandrel. That technique means you size the neck tighter than what you want, then open it up with the mandrel.

So the annealed brass neck ID would open up to 0.241" with the mandrel, then spring back to 0.2405" or 0.2400".

The hardened brass neck ID would open up to 0.241" with the mandrel, then it might only spring back a few tenths, if any at all. So it would in effect have less tension than the annealed brass.

Annealing will soften the brass and reduce springback. It is work-hardened brass that has more springback, plus the additional tension of the brass being harder.

 

[samb300]

Annealing will soften the brass and reduce springback. It is work-hardened brass that has more springback, plus the additional tension of the brass being harder.

Huh. I must be thinking about this backwards then. Thanks for the info.

I think measuring with pin gages would yield the most accurate measurements to see what's going on. FL sizing then using the mandrel must be complicating things slightly though...

If you only use an OD bushing FL to size with no mandrel, you'd be targeting 0.241" for the neck ID as being 0.002" neck tension (bushing diameter value would depend on neck wall thickness). If the un-annealed brass springs back more, using an extreme value of 0.001" spring back, that would yield an ID of 0.242". So less neck tension.

But with the FL size + mandrel operation, you would typically over-size the neck, then open it back up with the mandrel. So if you sized it down to 0.239" with your FL bushing die, then used the mandrel, the spring back would be moving the neck back toward the ID. Using the same 0.001" of spring back, you'd put the 0.241" mandrel through it and it would spring back to 0.240". Thus in this case it would have MORE neck tension than an annealed case that ends up at 0.241" on the money due to having no spring back.

Does this make sense? I'm thinking out loud here.

 

[Jordanwickham]

Yeah hard brass has more spring than soft brass not the other way around. You tumble after the annealing process has happened so depending on the time on the tumble you theoretically should remove the annealing buildup. Now a 20-30 minute lube removal tumble may not be adequate. May want to go an hour. I don't use the AMP so I don't know anything about after anneal consistency with that system.
A sidenote is that I always dry lube when neck mandrel which is after my lube removal tumble and I've never had an issue since with annealed brass having issues, which is why I started with the dry lube in the first place.

SS tumble, anneal ( 3-4 firings), neck size, body size, dry tumble, dry lube, ID mandrel, prime, charge, seat
That is the process I go with

 

[Jordanwickham]

Huh. I must be thinking about this backwards then. Thanks for the info.

I think measuring with pin gages would yield the most accurate measurements to see what's going on. FL sizing then using the mandrel must be complicating things slightly though...

If you only use an OD bushing FL to size with no mandrel, you'd be targeting 0.241" for the neck ID as being 0.002" neck tension (bushing diameter value would depend on neck wall thickness). If the un-annealed brass springs back more, using an extreme value of 0.001" spring back, that would yield an ID of 0.242". So less neck tension.

But with the FL size + mandrel operation, you would typically over-size the neck, then open it back up with the mandrel. So if you sized it down to 0.239" with your FL bushing die, then used the mandrel, the spring back would be moving the neck back toward the ID. Using the same 0.001" of spring back, you'd put the 0.241" mandrel through it and it would spring back to 0.240". Thus in this case it would have MORE neck tension than an annealed case that ends up at 0.241" on the money due to having no spring back.

Does this make sense? I'm thinking out loud here.

Yeah that's all right on the money. I think .001" springback would be a rather extreme situation in 6mm.
An easy way to keep it straight is if hard brass had less springback your virgin brass prep would involve about 15 rounds of neck size and mandrel to work harden it.

 

[Conrad]

Been here with my AMP too. While I went down the path of all of the above I stopped short of ordering pin gauges.

I think I traced it back to not brushing and or not tumbling afterwards as long as usual. I was trying to cut steps....the one time.

Quick test to start with is brush your necks or run them in a dry media tumbler for a few hours.

How long do you tumble after annealing and sizing?

 

[Milo 2.5]

Been here with my AMP too. While I went down the path of all of the above I stopped short of ordering pin gauges.

I think I traced it back to not brushing and or not tumbling afterwards as long as usual. I was trying to cut steps....the one time.

Quick test to start with is brush your necks or run them in a dry media tumbler for a few hours.

How long do you tumble after annealing and sizing?

+1
I end up tumbling 3 times, clean, after anneal for 3 hrs, then after sizing. Have to get what I call oxidation off the necks, inside and out.

 

[Milo 2.5]

Huh. I must be thinking about this backwards then. Thanks for the info.

I think measuring with pin gages would yield the most accurate measurements to see what's going on. FL sizing then using the mandrel must be complicating things slightly though...

If you only use an OD bushing FL to size with no mandrel, you'd be targeting 0.241" for the neck ID as being 0.002" neck tension (bushing diameter value would depend on neck wall thickness). If the un-annealed brass springs back more, using an extreme value of 0.001" spring back, that would yield an ID of 0.242". So less neck tension.

But with the FL size + mandrel operation, you would typically over-size the neck, then open it back up with the mandrel. So if you sized it down to 0.239" with your FL bushing die, then used the mandrel, the spring back would be moving the neck back toward the ID. Using the same 0.001" of spring back, you'd put the 0.241" mandrel through it and it would spring back to 0.240". Thus in this case it would have MORE neck tension than an annealed case that ends up at 0.241" on the money due to having no spring back.

Does this make sense? I'm thinking out loud here.

I think you have been correct all along. I stated hard compared to soft not the same comparison when it comes to numbers.

 

[918v]

So, my lapua dasher brass got its first annealing on an AMP annealer after 3 firings. The same lot of bullets, primers, powder, same powder charge, same exact seating depth. I had about 40 rounds left over from the 2x fired brass. Those still group 1 hole. the annealed brass is shooting about .75-1 moa. Of course, i figure this out 1 day before leaving for a match. I would use my barrel tuner to dial in the groups again but then i'd be dipping into my rounds i need for the match. Thank god i have an option. Threw my 6.5cm barrel on the AI, zeroed the berger 140 hybrid ammo, and its shooting 1 hole as usual. I hate not being able to shoot my dasher but oh well.

Has anyone else experienced this? i found a thread on Accurate Shooter that seemed like someone else has experienced this. The conclusion was, i need to play with the seating depth to tune it back in, then after a couple firings, the original seating depth will work again.

you over annealed

 

[Cascade Hemi]

AMP needs to write another paper on their competitors.

 

[D_TROS]

you over annealed

Was just going to say this. Possible the piece you zapped to get the annealing number was extra hard in comparison to your others...
Did you notice a pressure increase at all? Would love to see pic of your old firing brass you have left over and a new annealed one after firing. If there was over annealing, it will cause pressure...IF was over annealed.

A friend did this but his still shot well and another did this and his shot horrible...soooo good luck?

LOL rElOaDiNg is FuN haha


One more thing. After you shoot your new annealed brass one time, re-zap a piece to get a new anneal number as it will be different testing a 3x fired piece over a 1x fired piece.


GL
DT

 

[918v]

I usually cut the AMP recommended settings by 25% to start, then test upward using my 650 Degree Tempilstik. I don’t go over 650.

 

[BLKWLFK9]

Idk if it was over annealed or not but I didn't have pressure or any changes in speeds, only in groups. Im ab to drop the annealing all together.

 

[BLKWLFK9]

I'm glad that I don't have any money invested in an annealer. My shooting buddy has the AMP. He tested 3 pieces, got 3 codes that were consecutive so he went with the middle code, which matched his lapua brass too.

 

[hollywood1981]

Watching, sounds like some ppl hit the head on the nail with the added carbon in the neck when annealing.

 

[BrienM]

Watching to see where this goes. Sometimes I think I need to anneal so I think I should invest. Then I read these stories.. AHH... It's suppose to be easier than this.. I am starting to think if you anneal, it needs to be done every time.. I just don't know..

 

[samb300]

Leave it to @BLKWLFK9 to screw up a load for 6 Dasher...kind of like people that can't even microwave Easy Mac

 

[Dthomas3523]

Unless checking with a pin gauge and/or using an arbor press, you are going to have trouble knowing for sure if the ID or seating pressure is the same. Calipers are easy to get false reading at that small of a measurement and you can’t feel seating pressure well enough off a regular press.

On the bright side, plenty of matches have been skull dragged with a 1moa rifle.

 

[918v]

Idk if it was over annealed or not but I didn't have pressure or any changes in speeds, only in groups. Im ab to drop the annealing all together.

Annealing won’t change your velocity or pressure. It will change the quality your bullet release.

If you are jumping your bullets you need the neck to maintain its sized shape until the bullet slides out into the bore, but soft enough to seal the chamber.

If the neck is too soft it will let go of the bullet prematurely and the bullet will enter the bore off center which will alter the poi and make it inconsistent.

If you’re jamming the bullets then neck hardness is less critical.

 

[BLKWLFK9]

Leave it to @BLKWLFK9 to screw up a load for 6 Dasher...kind of like people that can't even microwave Easy Mac

In my defense, I didn't anneal it. There ain't shit wrong with my dasher load, honkey. Typically .25-.3 moa, with an es of 8-11. My load is money.

 

[samb300]

In my defense, I didn't anneal it. There ain't shit wrong with my dasher load, honkey. Typically .25-.3 moa, with an es of 8-11. My load is money.

“Honkey???” That’s a hate crime and micro aggression. Consider yourself reported to the thought police!

 

[kthomas]

I was getting inconsistent neck tension when annealing lapua 6BRA brass. I stopped annealing and the problem went away.

 

[Deleted member 10043]

I'm so glad I was reloading long before annealing became a fad, lol.

 

[Milo 2.5]

I'm so glad I was reloading long before annealing became a fad, lol.

There are days i question myself doing it. I helped a friend dev a load for a Bergera 6mm creed, I don't have the pilot for it for my amp, he's on his 6th firing and the gun shoots right beside my full on customs.
I think or it seems today if you are not fucking with something, loads, gear, gadgets, you are not shooting, lol

 

[BLKWLFK9]

I was getting inconsistent neck tension when annealing lapua 6BRA brass. I stopped annealing and the problem went away.

This is the camp I'm going to be in.

 

[Wheres-Waldo]

AMP discusses bullet tension vs bullet grip in detail. I dont Use an AMP but their reports are very valuable in my opinion.

Essentially, with nothing else changing besides the introduction of annealing into a shooters reloading process, the shooter will lose effective neck tension because, although your measured tension is the same, you have less bullet grip due to restored brass elasticity. Obviously if you are SS tumbling, you need to be using some sort of neck or bullet lube or brush the shit out of your necks also.

Find a neck tension that shoots well with freshly and correctly annealed cases, then anneal every time you process cases.

These have been my findings at least...

 

[Deleted member 10043]

I hear you @Milo 2.5 and consider you a reloading guru and much respect for that. I like to work up a load quick and use it for the duration. In my mind, a good rifle should be forgiving enough to give you at least an overall average .75 MOA until the shit hits the fan over the life of the barrel. Of course, less than .75 off the bat is the norm then it goes from there. I've become one of those old guys that don't really know my MV. Just the dope for that day. With that I can tell you approx. what it is. I can look at a group and say my SD is okay and that is about it. I've learned that run out should not be a problem. When I suspect it is I can measure some, index them with a sharpie, and shoot a group and tell from the before and after. But that is rare. I use only standard SAAMI spec barrels and dies. I like a little tolerance. And though interesting I never did start annealing. I end up with a sub MOA barrel until I retire it. Usually, right about where one would suspect but probably a little early and maybe obviously too late. My cleaning regime sucks and I went back to Hoppes #9 years ago. For copper I will splurge on KG12. The result is I'm still fucking with shit but I've seriously mellowed out trying to maintain a tack driver. Trying to squeeze that extra 1/3rd MOA in with a 1/10th mil click is a lot of work. . One needs to be super competitive and plenty of trophies for that sort of effort. I see the masses watch those short-short videos and read those Internet articles from those champions using tight custom everything and we end up with countless threads why it is not working for everybody. It really takes countless hours of practice with a lot of failures to the point of perfection. Easier softer ways availed them nothing. So, if people want to go down that row they need to notice the years of patience these pros also put in before enrolling in their classes, making a free short video, or that one mouse click informative article or podcast. They can show you quickly fundamental mistakes, provide tips but they can't make a person put in the years. By that time the person to the left or right of you are not them. It is the next generation. Chances are it is already too late for most of us. We didn't start early enough and stuck with it. So, enjoy the hobby or sport and don't sweat the small stuff. Most of us simply don't have the talent and too lazy to put in the time for that top shelf level. It is not just the recipe and boom you're a professional. And I started at the age of 11 when my mother enrolled me at the local NRA YOUTH club to keep me out of trouble. That was 50 years ago.

 

[PAYDIRT]

Kinda like the bore scope commentary "how's it shoot" then the same guys with loads that are hammering decide to spend another $1500 and anneal. This place loves to spend $$$$$$

 

[Milo 2.5]

This place loves to spend $$$$$$

That me laugh out loud. Last Sunday shooting with a good friend I said the exact same thing, we like to throw money at this shit.

 

[Milo 2.5]

I hear you @Milo 2.5 and consider you a reloading guru and much respect for that. I like to work up a load quick and use it for the duration. In my mind, a good rifle should be forgiving enough to give you at least an overall average .75 MOA until the shit hits the fan over the life of the barrel. Of course, less than .75 off the bat is the norm then it goes from there. I've become one of those old guys that don't really know my MV. Just the dope for that day. With that I can tell you approx. what it is. I can look at a group and say my SD is okay and that is about it. I've learned that run out should not be a problem. When I suspect it is I can measure some, index them with a sharpie, and shoot a group and tell from the before and after. But that is rare. I use only standard SAAMI spec barrels and dies. I like a little tolerance. And though interesting I never did start annealing. I end up with a sub MOA barrel until I retire it. Usually, right about where one would suspect but probably a little early and maybe obviously too late. My cleaning regime sucks and I went back to Hoppes #9 years ago. For copper I will splurge on KG12. The result is I'm still fucking with shit but I've seriously mellowed out trying to maintain a tack driver. Trying to squeeze that extra 1/3rd MOA in with a 1/10th mil click is a lot of work. . One needs to be super competitive and plenty of trophies for that sort of effort. I see the masses watch those short-short videos and read those Internet articles from those champions using tight custom everything and we end up with countless threads why it is not working for everybody. It really takes countless hours of practice with a lot of failures to the point of perfection. Easier softer ways availed them nothing. So, if people want to go down that row they need to notice the years of patience these pros also put in before enrolling in their classes, making a free short video, or that one mouse click informative article or podcast. They can show you quickly fundamental mistakes, provide tips but they can't make a person put in the years. By that time the person to the left or right of you are not them. It is the next generation. Chances are it is already too late for most of us. We didn't start early enough and stuck with it. So, enjoy the hobby or sport and don't sweat the small stuff. Most of us simply don't have the talent and too lazy to put in the time for that top shelf level. It is not just the recipe and boom you're a professional. And I started at the age of 11 when my mother enrolled me at the local NRA YOUTH club to keep me out of trouble. That was 50 years ago.

Anymore I tell people to quit with the podcasts and reading, figure it out yourself, you just cannot follow lead after lead and survive.
Inadvertently I just got my brother in law into LR shooting. He wants a rifle, I lay some ground work, let him know other than a stock, my smith has everything in place for a 6mm build. Well, he got to researching, needs 6.5, oh boy, it was futile explaining to him that the range he will be using does not dictate 6.5. It is perfectly groomed, sterilized ground and berms, and for the most part goes to 550 yards. You can back up 400 yards and extend the distances, but no one can be in front of you, jupiter aligning with mars shit.
6.5 creedmoor it is
Forgot, he went to scheels, needs the new Swarovski smart scope, 5K of worthlessness. I mean fuck, no.

 

[A&8's]

This place loves to spend $$$$$$

we like to throw money at this shit.

It's a hobby. That's what hobbies do...eat $$$ and shit satisfaction (sometimes headaches).

 

[BLKWLFK9]

Wheeeelllllpppp... figured this whole debacle out. I had 10 pieces of the annealed brass that I hadnt loaded up yet. I used these as my test pieces.

The one thing that I failed to mention, and only bc I didn't know it was pertinent, is my tumbler was fucking up when tumbling the brass after annealing and sizing. I ended up tumbling them for about 30 min just to get the sizing lube off. Primed, charged, and seated bullets. Groups were shit. Went to the match and asked a few folks (I know this had been mentioned in some comments in here) of what they thought was the culprit. Some thought it was this or that. A couple people mentioned to me how they need to tumble for a long time post annealing. Something I didn't do.

So I took the 10 test pieces that had been annealed and tumbled them for about 8 hours (with a new tumbler I had ordered during the match last weekend), then loaded them up. Shot all 10 today and the two 5 shot groups were 1 fuckin hole.

The booger bear now is, I've got 140 pieces loaded with shitty neck grip. I wish I could pull bullets, dump powder, tumble, resize necks, then load them back up but I don't think it wise to tumble live primers in empty cases. I wouldn't give a shit ab the primers if we won't in such a primer shortage right now. Ive only got 200 more 450s and 400 more 205Ms.

I'm guessing I've got to just chalk them up to practice rounds. Any other suggestions?