Annealing wrecked my groups
- Thread starter BLKWLFK9
- Start date
Pull a handful, brush the neck, and reseat and see how that goes. May luck out.
I ultrasonic clean and anneal every firing before neck sizing via a Lee Collet Die with excellent results in my 6.5CM. .25 MOA at 100yds if I do my part and my SDs are single digit. I do not tumble afterwards or brush necks at all since my necks are clean from the ultrasonic process. I do use mica for neck lube before seating bullets. I once tried SS pin tumbling, but bullet grip was too slick from the SS pins polishing the neck too well and my SDs and ES doubled from it.
I use the Boretech brass cleaning solution in my ultrasonic cleaner. I can fit 40 pieces of brass neck down in a in a 400ml beaker and use 40:1 ratio of Boretech concentrate just in the beaker. I fill up the rest of my ultrasonic tub with water. 20 minutes cleaning followed my a manual rinse followed by a 20 minute ultrasonic rinse in the water that was outside of the beaker gives me tarnish free brass with no color changing over time. I have found that not ultrasonically rinsing afterwards will cause a 20fps degradation in velocity in rounds loaded for 2 months or more. I anneal right after my ultrasonic regimen which ends up drying the brass from the heat.
The only difference I see between my annealing regimen and the OP's is that I have clean necks before annealing. Perhaps carbon in the necks during annealing is the issue?
I use the Boretech brass cleaning solution in my ultrasonic cleaner. I can fit 40 pieces of brass neck down in a in a 400ml beaker and use 40:1 ratio of Boretech concentrate just in the beaker. I fill up the rest of my ultrasonic tub with water. 20 minutes cleaning followed my a manual rinse followed by a 20 minute ultrasonic rinse in the water that was outside of the beaker gives me tarnish free brass with no color changing over time. I have found that not ultrasonically rinsing afterwards will cause a 20fps degradation in velocity in rounds loaded for 2 months or more. I anneal right after my ultrasonic regimen which ends up drying the brass from the heat.
The only difference I see between my annealing regimen and the OP's is that I have clean necks before annealing. Perhaps carbon in the necks during annealing is the issue?
Believe what you want, but my magnetospeed and results on paper at long range for vertical dispersion verify my findings. I'll keep doing what I'm doing and you keep doing what works for you. I'm just here to offer suggestions based on what has worked for me like most of the other grown-ups on this forum are here to do to try and help the OP solve his issue.
Your statement that stainless tumbling overpolishes the inside of the case neck is bullshit.
I tumble cases for 10-12 hours at a time. Over the lifetime of a case it sees over 100 hours in stainless media. if your claim was true the neck would be completely polished away.
I have a 21st Century arbor press with a hydraulic gauge and can see no decrease in seating pressure over time due to stainless tumbling.
yea, the change in the metallurgy composition inside the neck leaving something in there that will cause bullet grip issues, which causes erratic release of the bullet, which causes shitty groups...
ive got ten rounds with the bullets pulled and necks brushed then reloaded to test.
What amount of neck tension do you run? I run .001”-.002” neck tension, and I could definitely notice a lighter seating pressure after my experience with SS pin tumbling. Keep in mind that prior to this, I have been accustomed to seating bullets into ultrasonic cleaned necks that have been annealed. I would definitely like to find out why my experience with SS pin tumbling differs from yours, as I do like how clean my brass was with the SS pin tumbling.
Now keep this in mind. What im about to say is coming from someone who has never SS tumbled before. At the match last weekend, i talked to my buddy who is on the US Fclass team and takes his reloading to another level. He says that when they SS tumble, they media tumble before seating bullets just to get the dust inside the necks. When he and his team mates load their ammo, they seat the bullets about .030 too long, then when they get to the match, the seat the bullets to their correct lengths before they shoot them. His reasoning is the bullets will bond to the necks and fuck up neck tension so when they seat the bullets prior to shooting them, it breaks that bond and you get correct neck tension. Now, im not saying any of this from experience. Im only relaying what i was told about the subject. Its apparent to me that as long as i tumble the brass appropriately after annealing, there's no drama at all. Im ok with that, now that i replaced the tumbler.
I SS tumble, anneal, resize, trim, ultrasonic clean. My necks are spotless and I do not use any lube to seat the bullets.
I use only Dawn to tumble and ultrasonic clean and do not sort any cases or bullets.
25" Krieger 6.5 Creed
Stats - Average 2799.15 fps
Stats - Highest 2806.38 fps
Stats - Lowest 2792.7 fps
Stats - Ext. Spread 13.69 fps
Stats - Std. Dev 4.66 fps
Shot ID V0 Date Time
1 2793 9/11/2020 10:12:21
2 2799 9/11/2020 10:12:49
3 2794 9/11/2020 10:13:13
4 2803 9/11/2020 10:13:40
5 2795 9/11/2020 10:14:02
6 2803 9/11/2020 10:16:54
7 2802 9/11/2020 10:17:20
8 2797 9/11/2020 10:17:50
9 2804 9/11/2020 10:18:30
10 2793 9/11/2020 10:18:52
11 2796 9/11/2020 10:32:07
12 2806 9/11/2020 10:32:33
13 2803 9/11/2020 10:33:17
14 2795 9/11/2020 10:34:27
15 2803 9/11/2020 10:34:58
I use only Dawn to tumble and ultrasonic clean and do not sort any cases or bullets.
25" Krieger 6.5 Creed
Stats - Average 2799.15 fps
Stats - Highest 2806.38 fps
Stats - Lowest 2792.7 fps
Stats - Ext. Spread 13.69 fps
Stats - Std. Dev 4.66 fps
Shot ID V0 Date Time
1 2793 9/11/2020 10:12:21
2 2799 9/11/2020 10:12:49
3 2794 9/11/2020 10:13:13
4 2803 9/11/2020 10:13:40
5 2795 9/11/2020 10:14:02
6 2803 9/11/2020 10:16:54
7 2802 9/11/2020 10:17:20
8 2797 9/11/2020 10:17:50
9 2804 9/11/2020 10:18:30
10 2793 9/11/2020 10:18:52
11 2796 9/11/2020 10:32:07
12 2806 9/11/2020 10:32:33
13 2803 9/11/2020 10:33:17
14 2795 9/11/2020 10:34:27
15 2803 9/11/2020 10:34:58
I have been doing almost the same process as you except I SS tumble after sizing. I did find that usine Imperial Dry Lube definitely improved my sd/es. Small sample from yesterday was a 5shot group to confirm for match Saturday, 4 SD and 9 ES @ 2915fps in a 6CM w 115 DTACS.
I run .002” neck tension achieved by a Lee collet neck die. I also use Imperial dry lube to make bullet seating smooth. Seating pressure increases with every reload cycle as the neck hardens. When I anneal, which I do sparingly, I also use imperial dry lube otherwise the bullets are impossible to seat correctly. I don’t anneal more to make the neck softer so the bullets can go in easier. That’s a bad practice for magazine fed ammo.
While I would not argue with a winning shooters reloading process, I personally have never experienced the bullet bonding to the case.
I have read quite a few posts about this but don't know if this is simply a corrosion issue between the brass (that is mostly copper) and the bullet or is there some chemical from the reloading process that is left behind on the bullet or case causing the corrosion/bonding.
A while back I dissected some old ammo I reloaded (have done this many times never had a bonded bullet) there was no signs of the bullet bonding to the case after 36 years. There was some corrosion on the base of the boat tail that appears to be caused by the bullet crushing the powder (compressed load).
https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/dissecting-old-reloads.6978918/#post-8199373
Just throwing some stuff out there. Food for thought.
Just my opinion, but I think the "cold weld" of bullets to case necks was probably a real thing back when bullet jackets were almost pure copper and
casings were truly made from almost pure brass.
casings were truly made from almost pure brass.
Sorry to necro a thread. Was wondering if the brushing solved your issue! I usually wet tumble with pins before annealing, wet tumble without pins after sizing and then use graphite lube in the necks for mandrel sizing and seating.
Just curious!
I agree with some of the others though, Im definitely in the camp of not annealing until the brass gets hard now. For me I don’t see a huge improvement from annealing every time and I think it has potential to add variables. I’m not shooting professionally or anything so I just go with what feels right… it sure helps with sizing pressure and trimming though!
Just curious!
I agree with some of the others though, Im definitely in the camp of not annealing until the brass gets hard now. For me I don’t see a huge improvement from annealing every time and I think it has potential to add variables. I’m not shooting professionally or anything so I just go with what feels right… it sure helps with sizing pressure and trimming though!
I would seriously never use pins and get away from wet tumbling all together. Dry is where it's at. Why clean the carbon out of the necks...free lube! Who cares if your brass is shiny?
I use rice to tumble and an arbor press. My seating pressure is super consistent and I anneal every single firing. I'm like 13 firings in on my brass.
I use rice to tumble and an arbor press. My seating pressure is super consistent and I anneal every single firing. I'm like 13 firings in on my brass.
I’m definitely coming around to the school of thought. I used to get better numbers and I’m kind of chasing that next time I’m not going to wet tumble.
When do you anneal in the process? Before or after tumbling?
I rarely wet tumble (like mbeavers1, I like dry tumbling with rice), but wet tumbling can work if you do it without ss media and just use hot water and Dawn for ~30 minutes . . . after annealing. This still leave some of that carbon residue inside the neck for its lubing qualities.
Because I only process ~100 cases at a time, after annealing, I'll manually clean the outside of the necks with steel wool. I find it just doesn't take all that long to do. Then after sizing, having used Imperial Sizing Die Wax, I'll dry tumble with rice (using medium sized grain rice), which leaves the inside of the necks in great shape for seating.
Because of the abrasive oxidation layer left behind on the heated surfaces after annealing, it's always best to clean after annealing. . . use whatever method of cleaning you prefer.
I tumble in rice, anneal, then size and mandrel, tumble in rice, trim, prime, charge, then seat.
