Another 6.5 vs .308 question!

[Rob01]

Re: Another 6.5 vs .308 question!

You can also load to get the 140s over 2900fps. I have a load getting me 2930fps with no pressure and very accurate.

Those heavy bullets are a waste in the .308. They are made for magnums but inevitably people will shove them in a .308 case. Why not neck the .308 out to a .338 and use the super high BC 300grn .338 bullets? There is a point of diminishing returns and the 208 is about it with the .308 sized case.

The wind you keep harping on is so close on the 208 AMAX and 140 loaded 6.5s it's not enough to even mention. I just ran the numbers with the 208 at 2700fps and the wind is the same 1.9 mils at 1000 as the 140 at 2850fps. Push the 140 to it's top area of the 2930fps I get and it's 1.8 mils. There's no great gain with the 208 that you think there is. You just get more recoil with the 208s out of the .308. Something those KD shooters I am sure don't want.

I'm not emotional about it. Honestly I hope everyone reads your argument and starts shooting .308 at matches. Will make my life easier LOL But when I see info that can not give the OP or others reading the post a full picture I will post.

 

[Tx_Flyboy]

Re: Another 6.5 vs .308 question!

Rob01,

My main takeaway from this thread is...<span style="font-weight: bold">stay away from which caliber threads! Its like arguring politics or religion (two sides are just filing the air with soundwaves)</span>

That said, i can't seem to just stop posting...

Don't get me wrong...my favorite caliber is the .243winchester...I love shooting it, recoil(lack thereof)for the performance is awesome, but as i get closer to the barrel change point, i find myself putting back down and grabbing the 308 (sigh).

I agree with you that there is significant increased recoil associated with shooting heavy 308 projectiles, however, I disagree with your assertion that heavy 30-cal bullets out of the 308 winchester bullets are "a waste", or that 208AMAX at 2700ft/s is about as good as it gets for the 308...if you bother to search that thread, you'll see that 2700ft/s is not the fastest people are getting the 208 out of a 308winchester.

Heavy 30cal projectiles (with new powders) are the wave of the future in the 308 Winchester...many of the new 30cal bullets being developed are heavies with unheard of BCs, and people inevitably shoot them out of 308s with amazing results.

In many competitions, (palma, F-class open, etc) the only choice you have is a 308...and to get any kind of ballistic edge (ballistic edge = wind resistance since the elevation never changes), you HAVE TO shoot heavier 30-cal projectiles...the good thing about the heavies is that they don't require that much velocity to give top end 6.5ish wind-drift performance.

As i've stated with every post, 6.5 vs 308 depends on the application..until someone manufactures a 6.5 projectile that can be shot fast enough to nullify the advantages of newer, heavier,.30cal projectiles out there, the 6.5 will not necessarily be the best choice for the application....assuming the chambering is even allowed for the application.

If this thread had been say .284winchester vs .308 winchester, I would be suggesting the 7mm all the way...with the caveat that the application cannot include those i previously mentioned.

 

[Rob01]

Re: Another 6.5 vs .308 question!

Yes when the only choice is a .308 then yes I would shoot the .308 obviously with the best bullet for the job and on those KD ranges where you know the range then the wind is the biggest thing to worry about. You're not telling me anything I don't know. I wouldn't use a 208 at any tactical matches where there is any UKD though.

I will stand by my statement about using the heavier bullets a waste. You are jamming big heavy bullets meant for magnum .30 rifles and pushing them at high pressures to get them to usable velocities. Not always the best way to do business. The 208 is about the heaviest bullet I see useful. I guess we will have to watch the match results and see how many shooters are shooting the heavy bullets in a .308.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tx_Flyboy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In many competitions, (palma, <span style="font-weight: bold">F-class open</span>, etc) the only choice you have is a 308...</div></div>

Also F Class open you don't need to shoot a .308. Just F T/R.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tx_Flyboy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As i've stated with every post, 6.5 vs 308 depends on the application..until someone manufactures a 6.5 projectile that can be shot fast enough to nullify the advantages of newer, heavier,.30cal projectiles out there, the 6.5 will not necessarily be the best choice for the application....assuming the chambering is even allowed for the application.
</div></div>

They do. Did you even look at those charts? The 208 compared to the 140. It's a push. No basic difference. You can keep posting that the 208 is better in the wind. Doesn't make it true.

I to don't know why I post in these threads. I should just let everyone think the .308 is the way to go. They should also shoot 16" barrels too LOL

Ok I have said my piece and I'm done.

 

[Tx_Flyboy]

Re: Another 6.5 vs .308 question!

Rob,

This is my first thread with opposing view points that did not degenerate into name calling...I think i just turned a corner...

Regarding your first paragraph, we are in agreement...for tactical comps and UKD matches, take the flattest-shooting rifle caliber with minimal recoil...

Your second paragraph is where our disagreement lies...I did not mean to insinuate that the 208 beats the 140AMAX at 2850 or higher...i was referring to my comparison of a 260 Remington at 2750fps.

I'm not stuck on the 208AMAX with 308win, i simply used it to make a point about "wind-cheating" with 308win...bullets like the 225HPBT and the berger 230grain hydrids will yield even better performance at lower velocities.

MontanaMarine experimented with the 225gr HPBT out of his 20.5" 308 and obtained 2500fps...this is not operating on the ragged edge of pressure, but the rounds were not mag-length and did have to be single-fed.

This is the thread...don't know how to make it a linky, but there are only a few posts, so it reads quickly.

http://snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2981884

In any event, i'm not saying shooting heavy projectiles out of the 308s is ideal, but its a much better solution to getting better performance out of a 308winchester than to completely re-barrel one's rifle, buy new dies, buy more expensive reloading components, change barrels more frequently, have less factory options, etc, etc in order to possibly gain 2-4inches of wind-drift at 1,000yards over the heavy 308 projectiles.

As to shooting 6.5s at F-class open, forgetaboutit! If you don't use a 308 or 223, you are in F-open...and the 7mm guys will eat your lunch everyday and twice on sundays.

All this being said, I'm toying with the idea of building a match rifle based on DPMS-308 platform for across the course matches. I'm thinking i will chamber it in .243winchester and download it to 6XC velocities to see if don't get improved barrel life.

 

[VKC]

Re: Another 6.5 vs .308 question!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tx_Flyboy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">vkc,

Per my previous post, if you run the numbers (high BC .30cal projectiles vs High BC 6.5s), the difference in performance is not as great as people think...you have to ask yourself if the added expense of lower barrel life, more expensive & less available ammo & reloading components, and lower terminal energy (for hunting) is worth the 2-4 inches of less drift & drop at extended ranges.

</div></div>

I think Rob01 answered your question already.

But to elaborate, for a 30 caliber to equal a 6.5 in drop and wind drift, it needs to be a win mag...a 308win just can't keep up. When you step up to a win mag, you also step up in recoil...for hunting that makes sense, but for competitions it does not.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Another 6.5 vs .308 question!

I think that life on the line can be a bit simpler if you don't flog the beast of burden.

I sgree that high BC bullets in either diameter can be comparable. but getting those heavier, longer bullets to reach out with the same case capacity just puts the pressures into higher territories where I don't like to tread.

I believe, personally, that if you're going to push those weights in 30 cal, you'd need something a bit more like the .30-'06's case capacity to find parity with the .260 performances. If you're going to employ that kind of cartridge length, I think it pays better to run it as a 7mm (280 Rem).

Finally, I think higher BC's and longer barrel are a better combination. Rather than using the additional length to up the velocities, I think it's best employed to allow less pressure to drive the same performance.

Drop and drift will vary, but it will never go away. No matter what you shoot, you will always need to accomodate it. Less is not more here. Less is a temptation to destroy otherwise good barrels. Throttle back and enjoy a longer ride.

Greg