Another Badger bolt knob down!

[Victor Co Heather]

I've been having problems with sticky brass in my Remy 700 and hit the badger bolt knob a few too many times with my triad tactical rear bag. One really good pull on a stuck case and that sucker popped right off.

I was pissed off and disappointed with the crappy way the badger is attached. I rang Randy Cain (thank God he lives close to me!) and he had her fixed up with one of his knobs in 22 minutes. Randy taps the bolt arm with a metal shaft so his knob won't come off like the other. He also gave me a little bit of advice, use a wooden dowel or cleaning rod to tap it out. (This is sage advice gunners, brass that seems welded into the chamber will tap out with very little effort down the barrel)

Here's a detail from Randy's shop floor...

(I bet he had ten of those broken badger knobs laying around that he fixed for riflebangers like me. )

Here she is out on the range Saturday sporting her new look. It's funny because people now walk by my lane and say "Hey that's Randy's bolt!"

Live and learn.

 

[Mike]

Re: Another Badger bolt knob down!

Who installed the Badger bolt knobs?

How you're going to blame a knob when the workmanship is what is in question is amazing. The "knob" looks fine. It is the Remington bolt handle that seems to be the problem.

Please report back with the facts.

And I like how it is "another" Badger bolt knob down. You can provide facts of many others too correct?

 

[Victor Co Heather]

Re: Another Badger bolt knob down!

The remington bolt handle and 'arm' (not sure if that is the technical name for it) is a cast part that is hollow inside the bulb of the handle. Sometimes this hollow area extends into the tip of the 'arm'. The way Badger knobs are designed, they are threaded on to this weaker part of the bolt arm without support. It's not necessarly a design flaw in the knob as much as it's a design flaw in the modification with a remy. It simply amplifies a weakness in the mass production of the remy bolt handle. Randy fixes the flaw by adding a steel shaft to aid support.

I say 'another' because it happened to my last rifle.

 

[lizzardking308]

Re: Another Badger bolt knob down!

Again, as Mike said, it's not the knob that failed, it's the bolt handle itself.

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: Another Badger bolt knob down!

Anyone that does a quality install of aftermarket knobs does not just thread the factory shank. Voids in the factory casting are not a new problem, and is no reflection of the knob.

 

[birddog762]

Re: Another Badger bolt knob down!

even stevie wonder could see its the remmy bolt handle and NOT the bolt knob(no matter who made it)

 

[rmfield]

Re: Another Badger bolt knob down!

You should send that worthless sticky brass back to the manufacturer.

 

[Highground]

Re: Another Badger bolt knob down!

I think it just shows that the bolt knob is doing what it is supposed to do, provide a larger gripping surface and added length for more leverage.

 

[Victor Co Heather]

Re: Another Badger bolt knob down!

I'll say it again, the problem is not the knob per se, it's the way it's designed to attach. Obviously it broke at the handle, but would not have if the original bolt knob had been on it.

 

[mr.rhtuner]

Re: Another Badger bolt knob down!

How does a bolt knob fail??? LOL it's a round piece of steel with threads in it hahaha

 

[USSR]

Re: Another Badger bolt knob down!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: M.45</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'll say it again, the problem is not the knob per se, it's the way it's designed to attach. Obviously it broke at the handle, but would not have if the original bolt knob had been on it.</div></div>

Uhh, bolt knobs are designed to attach to the end of the bolt handle. Blame Remington's cheap ass bolt handle, not Badger's knob.

Don

 

[Victor Co Heather]

Re: Another Badger bolt knob down!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: USSR</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: M.45</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'll say it again, the problem is not the knob per se, it's the way it's designed to attach. Obviously it broke at the handle, but would not have if the original bolt knob had been on it.</div></div>

Uhh, bolt knobs are designed to attach to the end of the bolt handle. Blame Remington's cheap ass bolt handle, not Badger's knob.

Don </div></div>

The real lesson here Don is don't wrench the bolt handle with excessive amounts of force.

and remy's have cheap ass bolt handles! Thank God my nesika is milled.

 

[Mike]

Re: Another Badger bolt knob down!

And the fact remains that this would be true regardless of the manufacturer of the bolt knob whether it be BO, R&D, AZP, etc., etc.

 

[Victor Co Heather]

Re: Another Badger bolt knob down!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And the fact remains that this would be true regardless of the manufacturer of the bolt knob whether it be BO, R&D, AZP, etc., etc. </div></div>

Not necessarily true. I don't think Randy's will come off with his modification. The next part that would fail is the brazed joint where it connects with the actual bolt.

 

[Mike]

Re: Another Badger bolt knob down!

If the brazed joint fails, the knob comes off. Nothing is perfect.

 

[DBrace]

Re: Another Badger bolt knob down!

How come you put the bolt back in on the wrong side??!! Glad he got her fixed up. -Dan

 

[Ol Rob]

Re: Another Badger bolt knob down!

I am surprised the solder holding the lever held to the point of the break. Glad you got it fixed.

 

[wksinatl]

Re: Another Badger bolt knob down!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Who installed the Badger bolt knobs?

How you're going to blame a knob when the workmanship is what is in question is amazing. The "knob" looks fine. It is the Remington bolt handle that seems to be the problem.

Please report back with the facts.

And I like how it is "another" Badger bolt knob down. You can provide facts of many others too correct? </div></div>

That's the way I see it too. Even with M45's explanation I don't see where the <span style="font-weight: bold">knob</span> failed.

Keith

 

[Victor Co Heather]

Re: Another Badger bolt knob down!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KS</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Who installed the Badger bolt knobs?

How you're going to blame a knob when the workmanship is what is in question is amazing. The "knob" looks fine. It is the Remington bolt handle that seems to be the problem.

Please report back with the facts.

And I like how it is "another" Badger bolt knob down. You can provide facts of many others too correct? </div></div>

That's the way I see it too. Even with M45's explanation I don't see where the <span style="font-weight: bold">knob</span> failed.

Keith </div></div>


Hey Guys-

First, my post wasn't meant to flame BO, I think they have great products. It was pointing out a problem I've been having and how I fixed it (twice). While I really like their bolt knobs in looks, more research and development needs to go into how the bolt knobs are installed on Remingtons.

This is how I see it (you may not agree):

<span style="font-weight: bold">1. Remington's OEM bolt knob has never been broken off from the handle when trying to get sticky brass out. Its works exactly the way they designed it, 100 percent.

2. Badger created an aftermarket part for the Remington that modifies the bolt handle by cutting it in a place that Remington never intended, causing the bolt handles to fail at times.

3. The Remington is the most popular model of rifle modded with this Badger bolt mod.

4. The way the BO Bolt knob is designed, when installed properly it creates a large amount of force on the attachment point of the new bolt knob.

5. Other manufactures of bolt knobs have seen this flaw in design and modified the installation of theirs to accommodate for the known weakness in Remington's handles.</span>

I've owned only three bolt guns in my life and all three have had the Badger bolt knob mod on them. All three have been professionally installed by real gunsmiths (from this site btw). Two of them have broken off, one when I forced it and one simply came off in my friend's hand when he closed the bolt. The third, still attached knob is on a nesika action, which I don't think will fail since it's a milled part. (hope, hope!)

When creating an aftermarket part BO should recognize there is a problem with their attachment process. Remington mass produces their bolt knobs/handles in a way that was not meant to be cut, if Badger has a product that needs to cut the handle to install it, they should take responsibility in adding measures (steel rod) to see that their bolt mod stays on.

You may or may not have the same problem as I, but if you do there is a fix.

Good luck!

 

[wksinatl]

Re: Another Badger bolt knob down!

I gotcha now.

thanks,

Keith

 

[300sniper]

Re: Another Badger bolt knob down!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: USSR</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: M.45</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'll say it again, the problem is not the knob per se, it's the way it's designed to attach. Obviously it broke at the handle, but would not have if the original bolt knob had been on it.</div></div>

Uhh, bolt knobs are designed to attach to the end of the bolt handle. Blame Remington's cheap ass bolt handle, not Badger's knob.

Don </div></div>

how many unmodified remington bolt knobs have you seen break off? something tells me that remington didn't engineer their knobs to be machined off and threaded.

 

[GasLight]

Re: Another Badger bolt knob down!

I love how there is an assumption that the Badger knob can't be installed the exact same way as Randy's knob...

 

[akrapovic]

Re: Another Badger bolt knob down!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
(I bet he had ten of those crappy broken badger knobs laying around that he fixed for riflebangers like me. )</div></div>

This comment makes it appear that the intent of your post is to rip Badger. If that's the case it's ok too, you are a consumer and you are entitled to your own opinion. Stick to your guns, don't back peddle. It's only the internet, I promise you won't get hurt

Edit, just saw your follow up post.

 

[Victor Co Heather]

Re: Another Badger bolt knob down!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DebosDave</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I love how there is an assumption that the Badger knob can't be installed the exact same way as Randy's knob... </div></div>

That's the point of this post, it can/should be installed the same way as Randy's. The knob should come with a steel rod and new instructions on how to install it properly.

 

[Metalhead0483]

Re: Another Badger bolt knob down!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: akrapovic</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I promise you won't get hurt </div></div>

...much. You might get a bit singed by the angry responses though.

I'd say Badger Ordinance is the industry standard in our little corner of it and are used to good effect by a GREAT many loyal shooters...

 

[Metalhead0483]

Re: Another Badger bolt knob down!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: M.45</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DebosDave</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I love how there is an assumption that the Badger knob can't be installed the exact same way as Randy's knob... </div></div>

That's the point of this post, it can/should be installed the same way as Randy's. The knob should come with a steel rod and new instructions on how to install it properly. </div></div>

Then your title should say "Another Remington bolt handle down!"

 

[wnroscoe]

Re: Another Badger bolt knob down!

I delivered a build two weeks ago only to have the owner drop it down a flight of carpeted stairs. The Bolt Knob mod was Tig welded on. The damage was a stock broken in half, broken erector system in the scope and yes, the attachment point for the bolt knob mod was cracked and bent. The knob was still attached to the bolt handle but cracked none the less. The point is this, no matter how attached, <span style="font-weight: bold">ANY</span> mod can fail at any given time depending on the circumstances. I agree, the turned down shank on the Remington Bolt Handle is the failure. A threaded fixture held in place with a grade 8 10x32 bolt and tig welded would not have come off so easy. I'll never install a bolt knob by threading a Remington bolt handle only. I believe Terry Cross Tig welds his as well. Glad you got it fixed.

 

[chucknelson]

Re: Another Badger bolt knob down!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And the fact remains that this would be true regardless of the manufacturer of the bolt knob whether it be BO, R&D, AZP, etc., etc. </div></div>

I can almost bet that the one remington designed that was so eloquently cut off would have stayed put.

 

[Triad]

Re: Another Badger bolt knob down!

I like Randy, and I think I coined the SH phrase of joy "POOL-PIC, POOL-PIC". I have seen several of his guns and they are all beautiful.

I don't see any broken Badger parts in your photo:

Did you mean to post something else?

 

[Triad]

Re: Another Badger bolt knob down!

OH, and thanks for not breaking the Rear Bag!!

I might have to add some info to the Triad web site:

"These Rear Bags are stronger than a Rem bolt handle that has had a leverage enhancing device installed."

Maybe a new name: Bludgeon Bag.......

 

[Victor Co Heather]

Re: Another Badger bolt knob down!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Triad</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I like Randy, and I think I coined the SH phrase of joy "POOL-PIC, POOL-PIC". I have seen several of his guns and they are all beautiful.

I don't see any broken Badger parts in your photo:

Did you mean to post something else? </div></div>

Nope, just thought it was a cool pic.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Triad</div><div class="ubbcode-body">OH, and thanks for not breaking the Rear Bag!!

I might have to add some info to the Triad web site:

"These Rear Bags are stronger than a Rem bolt handle that has had a leverage enhancing device installed."

Maybe a new name: Bludgeon Bag....... </div></div>

It wasn't your rear bag that broke it, it was a sharp yank from me days later.Tho my use of the bag as a leveraging/emotional outlet device I'm sure didn't help the situation.

Love the bag btw!

 

[GasLight]

Re: Another Badger bolt knob down!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: M.45</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DebosDave</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I love how there is an assumption that the Badger knob can't be installed the exact same way as Randy's knob... </div></div>

That's the point of this post, it can/should be installed the same way as Randy's. The knob should come with a steel rod and new instructions on how to install it properly.</div></div>

So you are saying that it has nothing to do with the design of the Badger knob? Perhaps it was the method of installation. Or perhaps it could even be the method of extracting stuck cases? I know this has been brought up here recently, and George from GA stated that they have installed 10,000 or more Badger knobs by threading the Remmy handle. If there were a flaw by installing like this, my hunch is that it would not be in constant use by one of the best gunsmith's in the business to this day. I am not saying there is something wrong with how Randy puts on a knob, it makes sense to me, and seems like it would be a lot easier to do than having a dedicated milling machine. I even think I could manage the job at my house with a drill press and a dremill... Is it stonger? Maybe likely...

Dave

 

[GasLight]

Re: Another Badger bolt knob down!

For the record, I think a tig welded milled solid steel bolt handle makes the most sense. The Cast factory bolt handle has proven to not be the most ideal for a tactical rifle. They work for most, but they do fail many times...

DD

 

[rogan]

Re: Another Badger bolt knob down!

Best endorsement in this thread is the triad bag. Been trying too justify buying one, and now I am sold. Ordering one today.

 

[Dans40X]

Re: Another Badger bolt knob down!

Adding a bowling ball or Louisville Slugger baseball bat to assist bolt manipulation, regardless how attached, does not address the LOCATION/TIMING/EXTRACTION issues.

 

[GasLight]

Re: Another Badger bolt knob down!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DANS40X</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Adding a bowling ball or Louisville Slugger baseball bat to assist bolt manipulation, regardless how attached, does not address the LOCATION/TIMING/EXTRACTION issues.

</div></div>

I can agree whole heartedly with this, do you believe that is an additional factor to the failure to extract a sticky case?

 

[Dans40X]

Re: Another Badger bolt knob down!

Handle Location & Timing will ease extraction.

 

[Nuttshooter]

Re: Another Badger bolt knob down!

Check this thread out. It covers those pesky ways of installing bolt knobs. Read the whole thing.

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1019532#Post1019532

 

[Victor Co Heather]

Re: Another Badger bolt knob down!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Nuttshooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Check this thread out. It covers those pesky ways of installing bolt knobs. Read the whole thing.

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1019532#Post1019532 </div></div>

That's a good read, thanks for the link!

 

[Mike]

Re: Another Badger bolt knob down!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: chucknelson</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And the fact remains that this would be true regardless of the manufacturer of the bolt knob whether it be BO, R&D, AZP, etc., etc. </div></div>

I can almost bet that the one remington designed that was so eloquently cut off would have stayed put.</div></div>

You mean the one that is not an actual aftermarket bolt knob? Yes, that one is such a great design that removing at and replacing it with something better is nearly everyone's first rifle mod. Remington knobs suck ergonomically. If they didn't the aftermarket knob business would not be so demanding.


I'll settle for the fact that there have literally been thousands of Badger bolt knobs installed; 10x the nearest competitor, yet we can only find a few that have been broken off. One the broken knobs in this thread where it was beaten on in a way in which it was not designed to handle. Next we'll say if it had been installed differently, it would not have come off. So my reply would be if beating the knob back with a rear bag is acceptable, is that the new standard for a bolt knob? If I break one off with a hammer does that move the bar higher too?

I know Randy et al does a good job installing their knobs, but let's keep the facts straight. The Badger is more than acceptable for the job it is designed to do.

 

[bjohnson1]

Re: Another Badger bolt knob down!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: M.45</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: USSR</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: M.45</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'll say it again, the problem is not the knob per se, it's the way it's designed to attach. Obviously it broke at the handle, but would not have if the original bolt knob had been on it.</div></div>

Uhh, bolt knobs are designed to attach to the end of the bolt handle. Blame Remington's cheap ass bolt handle, not Badger's knob.

Don </div></div>

The real lesson here Don is don't wrench the bolt handle with excessive amounts of force.

and remy's have cheap ass bolt handles! Thank God my nesika is milled.

</div></div>

The Real lesson here is don't load your ammo hot enough to where you are regularly having to beat on the bolt handle to get the bolt up...

I am surprised that it broke there instead of just ripping the whole handle off...

 

[Dans40X]

Re: Another Badger bolt knob down!

The handle will jump off the body the next time it is abused.

Downloading & putting a couple clicks of elevation is less expensive than repairing bolt handles/knobs.

 

[Stoner]

Re: Another Badger bolt knob down!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Nuttshooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Check this thread out. It covers those pesky ways of installing bolt knobs. Read the whole thing.

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1019532#Post1019532 </div></div>

good to know, thanks

 

[dogtownboogeyman]

Re: Another Badger bolt knob down!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wnroscoe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I delivered a build two weeks ago only to have the owner drop it down a flight of carpeted stairs. The Bolt Knob mod was Tig welded on. The damage was a stock broken in half, broken erector system in the scope and yes, the attachment point for the bolt knob mod was cracked and bent. </div></div>

TOO BAD IT WASNT LOADED AND ON FULL AUTO... WHAT KIND OF DORK DROPS A CUSTOMIZED RIFLE DOWN THE STAIRS... GOOOOOD GAWD ... MUSTA BEEN A LIBERAL WITH HIS FIRST GUN...LOL

 

[300sniper]

Re: Another Badger bolt knob down!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dogtownboogeyman</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wnroscoe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I delivered a build two weeks ago only to have the owner drop it down a flight of carpeted stairs. The Bolt Knob mod was Tig welded on. The damage was a stock broken in half, broken erector system in the scope and yes, the attachment point for the bolt knob mod was cracked and bent. </div></div>

TOO BAD IT WASNT LOADED AND ON FULL AUTO... WHAT KIND OF DORK DROPS A CUSTOMIZED RIFLE DOWN THE STAIRS... GOOOOOD GAWD ... MUSTA BEEN A LIBERAL WITH HIS FIRST GUN...LOL

</div></div>

que?

 

[wnroscoe]

Re: Another Badger bolt knob down!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dogtownboogeyman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">TOO BAD IT WASNT LOADED AND ON FULL AUTO... WHAT KIND OF DORK DROPS A CUSTOMIZED RIFLE DOWN THE STAIRS... GOOOOOD GAWD ... MUSTA BEEN A LIBERAL WITH HIS FIRST GUN...LOL

</div></div>

One of those things. He was in a hurry, shit happens.

As a side, I've never seen a Fully Auto-Matic Bolt Gun but, maybe I have'nt looked hard enough. How about you post a pic of yours and we can all see one.

 

[Victor Co Heather]

Re: Another Badger bolt knob down!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DANS40X</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The handle will jump off the body the next time it is abused.

Downloading & putting a couple clicks of elevation is less expensive than repairing bolt handles/knobs. </div></div>

Agreed. I've knocked my reloads down two grains and FL resized the brass. gtg!

 

[ROGUE7A]

Re: Another Badger bolt knob down!

wow... that pic reminds me of a saying:

"If you stick a Marine in a room with no windows or doors, buck naked with a ball bearing, within a half hour he will eat it, break it, steal it or lose it and be able to look at you honestly and claim that he has no idea what happend to it"

 

[bjohnson1]

Re: Another Badger bolt knob down!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wnroscoe</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dogtownboogeyman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">TOO BAD IT WASNT LOADED AND ON FULL AUTO... WHAT KIND OF DORK DROPS A CUSTOMIZED RIFLE DOWN THE STAIRS... GOOOOOD GAWD ... MUSTA BEEN A LIBERAL WITH HIS FIRST GUN...LOL

</div></div>

One of those things. He was in a hurry, shit happens.

As a side, I've never seen a Fully Auto-Matic Bolt Gun but, maybe I have'nt looked hard enough. How about you post a pic of yours and we can all see one. </div></div>

Never heard of the Pedersen Device?

I don't think it was Fully Auto, but with some modifications... who knows

No, just joking around with ya, and seeing as how they go for around 50 grand (just for the device) and their rarity, I would doubt I will ever see one in person, I did however see an '03 with the cutout for it, which I also figured I'd never see...

 

[nashlaw]

Re: Another Badger bolt knob down!

M.45, the entire problem is as plain as the nose on your face. You simply never, never, ever slap a LEFT-HANDED bolt knob with a RIGHT-HANDED bean bag.

Get back the range and work on the basics, boy!