Another collision in South China Sea .

[Clearlight]

No link as I'm on a phone , but ABC news here in Aus just ran a story
about another collision . Destroyer hit by a Liberian flagged chem/fuel
tanker . What the actual is the issue here ? I can understand the civilian
vessel not seeing the Destroyer due to ewf toys , but the Navy ship is
manoeuvrable and should have great ' eyes ' . Two times seems more than
a co incidence given the location ?

 

[sirhrmechanic]

Perhaps a legacy of using the military hard and 'putting it away wet' for eight years... followed by another eight years of neglecting it, cutting its budgets and mandating that training hours be spent on gender awareness, Muslim-science, trans-sexual-policy pop-quizzes, white-privilege-shaming-studies and CO2-is-poison recognition... instead of how to drive your ships, shoot your guns, break things and kill bad guys.

The damage won't be undone in a day... or a year. And "the Resistance" in Congress is trying to keep the last eight years alive and well...

At least the irony of it being the McCain is priceless. Though it's named after the heroic WW2 Admiral, not the current sitting senator.

Cheers,

Sirhr

 

[2ndamendfan]

[No message]

 

[Bill Larson]

Perhaps a legacy of using the military hard and 'putting it away wet' for eight years... followed by another eight years of neglecting it, cutting its budgets and mandating that training hours be spent on gender awareness, Muslim-science, trans-sexual-policy pop-quizzes, white-privilege-shaming-studies and CO2-is-poison recognition... instead of how to drive your ships, shoot your guns, break things and kill bad guys.

The damage won't be undone in a day... or a year. And "the Resistance" in Congress is trying to keep the last eight years alive and well...

At least the irony of it being the McCain is priceless. Though it's named after the heroic WW2 Admiral, not the current sitting senator.

Cheers,

Sirhr

could na said it better myself....... SO TRUE.....all of it..... plus years of wage freeze.....
now this oughta wake up alot in command.........
bill larson

 

[FS1]

Or it could have been a Tranny at the helm and he saw the Big Bulbous Bow of the tanker then got all excited....

 

[Alphatreedog]

Man I sure hope thi isn't a case of liberal shitbags in command positions scuttling our ships .

 

[_Windrider_]

Perhaps a legacy of using the military hard and 'putting it away wet' for eight years... followed by another eight years of neglecting it, cutting its budgets and mandating that training hours be spent on gender awareness, Muslim-science, trans-sexual-policy pop-quizzes, white-privilege-shaming-studies and CO2-is-poison recognition... instead of how to drive your ships, shoot your guns, break things and kill bad guys.

The damage won't be undone in a day... or a year. And "the Resistance" in Congress is trying to keep the last eight years alive and well...

At least the irony of it being the McCain is priceless. Though it's named after the heroic WW2 Admiral, not the current sitting senator.

Cheers,

Sirhr

Right? How many times did he crash a plane in nam? something like 5?

 

[shootist2004]

imagine how many ships would be damaged if we were in at war...................
do we use sonar or radar anymore?

 

[308pirate]

I'm a former USN Surface Warfare Officer. I qualified as and stood many watches as officer of the deck on a frigate all over the pacific on my first sea tour. I also stood many watches as the CIC Watch Officer, backing up the bridge team with the surface picture and navigation on the same ship. I have more than a passing familiarity with what goes on a warship navigating the congested waters of the western Pacific.

Regardless of all the high tech radar and computer-aided collision avoidance systems now in use, it is still not an easy task to maintain an accurate view of the surface picture around your ship in congested waters. Every contact on the screens needs to be correlated with what you see out the windows/bridge wings. Every one must be constantly tracked through target motion analysis to determine what the course, speed, and closest point of approach (CPA) will be. Every course and/or speed change of own ship triggers a recalculation of every contact's CPA. Add nighttime or low visibility and the problem becomes exponentially more difficult. A clear night is the absolute worst, as many (most) commercial and fishing vessels observe zero light discipline and are illuminated with all sorts of floodlights and deck lights that make quick observation of their navigation lights (which can give instant information to a trained observer) virtually impossible. Relative motion between ships tends to happen very slowly and trends that are easily apparent on the road, in small boats, or in aircraft are difficult to visually detect until it's almost too late, hence why plots of bearings and ranges over time are kept. Add to all of that the fact that congested waters often also restrict your ability to maneuver due to shoal water, etc.......

That all needs to be done in addition to all other tasks the OOD and JOOD need to do. Of course the OOD and CICWO have teams of people who should be trained and organized to do these tracking tasks. There will be a lot of information shared and communicated between the bridge and CIC as well as between watchstanders in each of those two places. There are many opportunities for errors to be made and compounded.

A well trained, disciplined, and motivated bridge watch and CIC watch can execute all these tasks correctly and safely, but it isn't easy. A poorly trained, lax, and/or unmotivated watch team leads to a collision at sea, despite all the better gear we have today (that I didn't have in 1990) to help improve one's situational awareness.

I don't buy that "running the military hard" has anything to do with this. Operational tempo should increase your readiness, not diminish it. But having poorly trained watch team certainly does and that is an issue that lies directly with the commanding officer. I do concede that a lot of time spent on bullshit PC training does hurt training on how to sail your ship without hitting things and how to use your ship's weapons to fuck shit up.

PS, sonar has fuck all to do with avoiding a collision at sea with other surface ships.

 

[QuickNDirty]

308pirate,

do you think the damage on that ship is consistent with it having been moving at the time of the collision?

Some speculation it was disabled and rammed intentionally.

https://twitter.com/DavidLarter/status/899571137717444608

 

[...]

im sorry......but any excuse is complete bullshit.......

its a fucking destroyer.....not a dinghy......you dont need radar/ sonar/ gaydar to fucking see it........you just need fucking eyeballs.

2 collisions within a few months.....there is no way these are "Accidents".

 

[_Windrider_]

I do concede that a lot of time spent on bullshit PC training does hurt training on how to sail your ship without hitting things and how to use your ship's weapons to fuck shit up.

.

Bingo

 

[QuickNDirty]

Seems like it'd be hard to dodge anything when the chicoms turned off your boat.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

Very well said .308... And my point of,operational tempo is not that it has worn folks out but that attrition following thr high tempo... Has left a force that was not what it was 16 years ago. But your points are excellent and well-appreciated.

And I don't think these were intentional. Its a lot harder to control a tanker and ram it into a destroyer than to hit a snowflake with a dodge.

Occams razor says accidents for the very reasons being discussed above.....

Holding hopes for the sailors.

Sirhr.

 

[QuickNDirty]

Very well said .308... And my point of,operational tempo is not that it has worn folks out but that attrition following thr high tempo... Has left a force that was not what it was 16 years ago. But your points are excellent and well-appreciated.

And I don't think these were intentional. Its a lot harder to control a tanker and ram it into a destroyer than to hit a snowflake with a dodge.

Occams razor says accidents for the very reasons being discussed above.....

Holding hopes for the sailors.

Sirhr.

I think if you had a guy on board who was capable of docking one of those big bastards it would be pretty possible to pilot it into disabled destroyer sitting dead in the water. I'm really curious if you boat guys think the damage there looks like the destroyer was stationary at the time of collision.

I'm no expert there by any means, but it just seems like there would be some scraping going on with a huge boat hitting a pretty damn big boat if both were moving.

Similar damage on the Fitzgerald, as well. Like, 0 attempt to avoid impact, and no details that I can see that would indicate either destroyer was in motion.
[IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"https:\/\/media3.s-nbcnews.com\/j\/newscms\/2017_24\/2041576\/170616-uss-fitzgerald-collision-ac-804p_b6fd36b9183c6be82702d3de26edb3c2.nbcnews-ux-2880-1000.jpg"}[/IMG2]

Also, the ACX Crystal had a pretty funky route. Interesting bits around 1:00 and 3:00

 

[308pirate]

I can't say from the photo of the McCain's damage if our ship was dead in the water or under way. And I'm not going to entertain stupid ass conspiracy theories.

The last thing I'm going to do is consider the points made by people who have zero knowledge of how things work at sea and have no business interpreting any data they may come across.

My training and experience says this was negligence up and down the chain of command, mostly down since the CO owns all fuckups no questions asked.

 

[308pirate]

its a fucking destroyer.....not a dinghy......you dont need radar/ sonar/ gaydar to fucking see it........you just need fucking eyeballs.

You're assuming that merchant seamen keep a diligent and efficient bridge watch at all times. You're assumption is quite wrong.

2 collisions within a few months.....there is no way these are "Accidents".

Yes, there are many ways that can lead to these collisions being negligent.

And let me be 100% crystal clear: regardless of which ship is the stand on vessel and which is the give way vessel, COLREGS and USN regulations REQUIRE all ships in danger of collision to take evasive action to avoid that collision when the vessel responsible for maneuvering is not doing enough. There is NO, ZERO, NINGUNA excuse for a USN combatant ship to be involved in a collision at sea regardless of its responsibility to maintain or alter course according to the rules of the road.

Is there anyone here, besides me, who has actually spent time on ship's bridge in a position of responsibility? Serious question.

 

[_Windrider_]

You're assuming that merchant seamen keep a diligent and efficient bridge watch at all times. You're assumption is quite wrong.


Yes, there are many ways that can lead to these collisions being negligent.

Is there anyone here, besides me, who has actually spent time on ship's bridge in a position of responsibility? Serious question.

I was a p-3 guy. Closest I got was 300 ft to the bridge.

 

[308pirate]

I was a p-3 guy. Closest I got was 300 ft to the bridge.

Close enough, considering

 

[308pirate]

Seems like it'd be hard to dodge anything when the chicoms turned off your boat.

Do you realize how dumb you look to those who actually know how this shit works?

 

[Flyingbullseye]

The ships captain be like....

 

[Marinevet1]

308pirate,

do you think the damage on that ship is consistent with it having been moving at the time of the collision?

Some speculation it was disabled and rammed intentionally.

https://twitter.com/DavidLarter/status/899571137717444608

I served in the Marine Corps......air wing......no time on a boat......but I can tell you without any doubt, that, boat, ship, or what ever you call it, was not in motion when it was hit.....right angle, t-bone.......no signs of anything other than a straight hit...

 

[QuickNDirty]

Do you realize how dumb you look to those who actually know how this shit works?

I'm ok with that. I don't know exactly how that shit works.

I mean, maybe you're a RSE, maybe you know the ins and outs of all the different detection mechanisms employed on these ships, maybe you know all about the operating systems that drive them. Maybe you're totally confident that this was just a case of people not doing their damned jobs.

My concern here is, if you're right about the rules, that they should have taken some evasive action, but maybe they couldn't for one reason or another.

From the information available to a dumb civilian like me, it looks like they didn't try to get out of the way. It's kind of alarming to me that two destroyers have been rammed by presumably civilian boats this year. It's also alarming that we've got planes and drones crashing and shit, too. I'm worried that we're starting to find out how fucked we are that we put made in China tech in our war implements, and just how hard Bill and company have fucked us.

I mean, Putin did go on that very calm rant about how we're making them nervous by placing anti-missile systems in Romania and other places that they feel are intended for them, and how they're developing technology that makes our shit obsolete. I would consider having the ability to turn off our destroyers and probably other things to be about right for such a statement.

It also doesn't seem like a good sign to me that the Navy has been 'paused for a day'.

Again, maybe I do look dumb. It isn't the first time, and definitely won't be the last time. I assure you, though, I am not a total fucking retard. Just look, my crypto bot has been doing great these last 515 hours. You can't do shit like that if you're a total fucking retard.

2017-08-21 20:31:28,412 INFO - [515.22] - Currently in on 67 buys, profits: 1.37980224, Percent gains: 85.26, Wins: 650, Losses: 11, Pending buys: 0, Pending sells: 0

 

[308pirate]

I served in the Marine Corps......air wing......no time on a boat......but I can tell you without any doubt, that, boat, ship, or what ever you call it, was not in motion when it was hit.....right angle, t-bone.......no signs of anything other than a straight hit...

Look at the picture again, the dent is not symmetrical. Those ships met at an angle. If that had been a perpendicular hit there would be a hell of a lot more damage above where the bow bulb holed the hull.

I love it when people who freely admit zero experience can be cocksure of what happened.

 

[ArmyJerry]

Been on many vessels in shipyards all over the world, a cargo or container ship of today would lift that little pissant boat out of the water as soon as it T boned it. Suprised to see this many people from the USMC's parent service on here, boat drivers no less. What you see in tat pic is about the size of a bow tube. I think this is just shitty training, shitty cohesion, lack of discipline and a sign our military has been taken over by the mediocrity that social experiments like affirmative action and quotas of various type Bree's, Its a goddam cancer, just think the same is happening in the AF and these little fkrs are in charge of minuteman missiles.

 

[308pirate]

It also doesn't seem like a good sign to me that the Navy has been 'paused for a day'.

Safety stand downs have been happening in the military since before I was in. That term, it doesn't mean what you think it means.

Again, maybe I do look dumb. It isn't the first time, and definitely won't be the last time. I assure you, though, I am not a total fucking retard. Just look, my crypto bot has been doing great these last 515 hours. You can't do shit like that if you're a total fucking retard.

I didn't say you were stupid. I said you look stupid by straying far from your lane with idiotic theories about subjects you have zero understanding of. Your ability to make money off bitcoin doesnt mean shit.

 

[Maggot]

I think if you had a guy on board who was capable of docking one of those big bastards it would be pretty possible to pilot it into disabled destroyer sitting dead in the water. I'm really curious if you boat guys think the damage there looks like the destroyer was stationary at the time of collision.

I'm no expert there by any means, but it just seems like there would be some scraping going on with a huge boat hitting a pretty damn big boat if both were moving.

Similar damage on the Fitzgerald, as well. Like, 0 attempt to avoid impact, and no details that I can see that would indicate either destroyer was in motion.
[IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"https:\/\/media3.s-nbcnews.com\/j\/newscms\/2017_24\/2041576\/170616-uss-fitzgerald-collision-ac-804p_b6fd36b9183c6be82702d3de26edb3c2.nbcnews-ux-2880-1000.jpg"}[/IMG2]

Also, the ACX Crystal had a pretty funky route. Interesting bits around 1:00 and 3:00

The path of the Crystal says it was being steered by a drunk or madman. Its last turn is to head directly into the Destroyer.

 

[QuickNDirty]

Safety stand downs have been happening in the military since before I was in. That term, it doesn't mean what you think it means.

I didn't say you were stupid. I said you look stupid by straying far from your lane with idiotic theories about subjects you have zero understanding of. Your ability to make money off bitcoin doesnt mean shit.

Oh, I see.. I totally agree with your last statement, making money off of bitcoin is pretty easy. Coding up a bot that makes money 24/7 is the way cooler aspect. That's not something everyone can do, y'know.

Anyway, as part of my day to day, I have to keep abreast of current threats because motherfuckers want to take control of my shit so they can spam the planet, and I tend to wander around in that space because, fuck... It's amazing how much havoc any idiot can wreak these days.

I just wanted to be reassured by someone in-the-know that it wouldn't be possible for one of our enemies to simply turn a ship off by broadcasting some Chinese gibberish in its general direction. I dunno if you're one of those people or not, but I do appreciate the time it took you to respond, and I thank you for your service.

 

[pmclaine]

Looks like a glancing blow bit forward of where the other ship strike occurred.

Im guessing a solid T bone from one of those big bastard cargo ships would likely wrap a ship of frigate or destroyer size into a horse shoe.

They were lucky while being "unlucky"

Was watching a container ship today "steaming" north along the coast of Cape Cod from Truro, MA. It looked like part of the horizon was on the march.

Gave me something to do while out of the water for a Great White sighting.

Someone needs to pay for the fuckup that resulted in the loss of more sailors.

Dying in battle is one thing. Drowning in your bunk after your compartment has been watertighted during a calm cruise is another.

Interesting that the McCain was the most recent ship to do a drive by on those bullshit manufactured Chinese sand bars last week.

I say we start extending Hawaii out by 1000 or so miles by throwing some floating pontoons in the South China Sea.

 

[QuickNDirty]

I mean, WaPo is totally fake news, right? Hell, the DoD report linked in the article doens't even exist anymore... Page 33 definitely isn't a big deal.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...=.e4186bd5f3b8

Among more than two dozen major weapons systems whose designs were breached were programs critical to U.S. missile defenses and combat aircraft and ships, according to a previously undisclosed section of a confidential report prepared for Pentagon leaders by the Defense Science Board.

 

[Dirty D]

Is there anyone here, besides me, who has actually spent time on ship's bridge in a position of responsibility? Serious question.

I qualified helm, lookout and QMOW and sailed some very busy waters, watching the radar track of the first collision made me think there was some intent on the part of the freighter but the OOD should have been able to avoid the collision anyways. A second collision in a month makes me wonder if we are being prepped for an attack, if an enemy can take out several of our cruisers by collision and not sound any alarms they may feel that they can deal with the rest of the fleet the old fashioned way.

 

[308pirate]

I qualified helm, lookout and QMOW and sailed some very busy waters, watching the radar track of the first collision made me think there was some intent on the part of the freighter but the OOD should have been able to avoid the collision anyways. A second collision in a month makes me wonder if we are being prepped for an attack, if an enemy can take out several of our cruisers by collision and not sound any alarms they may feel that they can deal with the rest of the fleet the old fashioned way.

You don't think this is a training issue?

How can you discern intent from the ACX's track when a) you can't see the tracks of any other shipping in the area at the same time b) you don't know what comms that ship had with home office c) you don't know if those were delaying maneuvers to wait out a particular time for the pilot's arrival and d) several other rational possibilities that I haven't thought of?

Dude I expect tinfoil hat stuff from those who know nothing, but you've BTDT.

 

[308pirate]

Looks like a glancing blow bit forward of where the other ship strike occurred..

The McCain was hit much, much further aft and on the port (opposite) side.

You're correct about the nature of the blow though. A t bone looks like this most of the time and will leave a huge V shaped notch on the side of the victim:

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

There is this http://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/nation-world/national/national-security/article168470432.html
But this is more worry some to me http://bgr.com/2017/08/18/brain-hack-science-limb-control/

 

[pmclaine]

The McCain was hit much, much further aft and on the port (opposite) side.

You're correct about the nature of the blow though. A t bone looks like this most of the time and will leave a huge V shaped notch on the side of the victim:

My bad regards hit area.

Took a quick look at picture from top of post. Thought those hedgehog looking launchers were forward of the superstructure but after the red flag review it does look like it is port, aft of superstructure.

Gosh I love sailor talk. Did I get port and starboard right or am I abaft of my beam?

We are heading out for a whale watch trip today.

We are leaving from Provincetown, MA.

If I am lucky we should get some Village People "In the Navy" action before we board our "vessel".

While out at sea Ill practice my sailor talk.

 

[Maggot]

I will admit I have 0 experience n this area but two things seem out of place to me.

-It just seems odd that a crew could miss something as large as a cargo vessel, electronics or no. What ever happened to 'eyes on'..unless it was dark.

-If you didnt take the time to watch it, do so now...the video below..the path of the cargo ship looks like it was being guided by a drunk...or someone with an agenda.

 

[308pirate]

My bad regards hit area.

Took a quick look at picture from top of post. Thought those hedgehog looking launchers were forward of the superstructure but after the red flag review it does look like it is port, aft of superstructure.

Gosh I love sailor talk. Did I get port and starboard right or am I abaft of my beam?

Yep, you're one squared away Marine....

 

[308pirate]

The path of the Crystal says it was being steered by a drunk or madman. Its last turn is to head directly into the Destroyer.

-If you didnt take the time to watch it, do so now...the video below..the path of the cargo ship looks like it was being guided by a drunk...or someone with an agenda.

As I said before that track, in isolation and without additional context, means absolutely nothing.

 

[Maggot]

As I said before that track, in isolation and without additional context, means absolutely nothing.

Understood, but still....

 

[2ndamendfan]

While i also do not want to spread conspiracy theories. It was reported this morning that the USA ship might have had a rudder failure and they are looking into (repeat looking into) possible issue of hacking remotely into the controls/systems.

Just stating that because. I think we all know that war is going cyber FAST.

 

[Slash0311]

I may be dumb but I'm going to ask a legit question. How would a cyber attack cause the collision? I get that one could change or corrupt navigation screens and GPS positions. I see how a "ghost ship" could show one thing but be somewhere else. I don't have a issue with that. But could a cyber attack help steer a ship into the path of the other? (For example, the helmsman turns to port but the ship goes starboard?) What about eyes on the horizon and look outs, being the human element?

Don't get me wrong. I think there's a whole lot here that doesn't pass the smell test and every day Joe's may never find out the truth behind what actually caused it. But two incidents in roughly the same area makes me wonder too.

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

I may be dumb but I'm going to ask a legit question. How would a cyber attack cause the collision? I get that one could change or corrupt navigation screens and GPS positions. I see how a "ghost ship" could show one thing but be somewhere else. I don't have a issue with that. But could a cyber attack help steer a ship into the path of the other? (For example, the helmsman turns to port but the ship goes starboard?) What about eyes on the horizon and look outs, being the human element?

Don't get me wrong. I think there's a whole lot here that doesn't pass the smell test and every day Joe's may never find out the truth behind what actually caused it. But two incidents in roughly the same area makes me wonder too.

With the correct info any system can be over rode, that is proven fact. Back in the day many systems had remote access, I could reprogram a Genset/s and it's/their switch gear, from home on the other side of the world to the point I could lock out any an all local input. We seen this as great and disastrous at the same time, so we changed the installed PLC's hard points to not allow inputs outside of a given window. Even then we found drawing board theory vs real life hacking had different outcomes. Even in today's world if the gear has a addy a smart hacker can bring shit to a halt quickly, one of the reasons most critical systems now require two inputs to reprogram remotely. One on site, w/a special hard key an pin to allow remote reprogramming. Even then a on site button still has to be held while the re-flash is taking place. Open harness none shielded systems are but receive antennas. Once you know the wire length (tech spec manuel's on line) the freq to transmit on is staring you in the face. Should the wire not be protected you can own that circuit, quickly. Knowing what circuits to own, then owning them, now local input means nothing. All none shielded Electronic devices can be "Owned" by others rather quickly.
.

 

[QuickNDirty]

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-navy-crash-china-idUSKCN1B20O2?il=0

"The investigations into the latest collision will take time to reach their conclusions, but there is no denying the fact that the increased activities by U.S. warships in Asia-Pacific since Washington initiated its rebalancing to the region are making them a growing risk to commercial shipping,"

Could they end up banning us from that area?

 

[2ndamendfan]

I may be dumb but I'm going to ask a legit question. How would a cyber attack cause the collision? I get that one could change or corrupt navigation screens and GPS positions. I see how a "ghost ship" could show one thing but be somewhere else. I don't have a issue with that. But could a cyber attack help steer a ship into the path of the other? (For example, the helmsman turns to port but the ship goes starboard?) What about eyes on the horizon and look outs, being the human element?

Don't get me wrong. I think there's a whole lot here that doesn't pass the smell test and every day Joe's may never find out the truth behind what actually caused it. But two incidents in roughly the same area makes me wonder too.

Well let me take control of your steering wheel in your car and see how well you can control your car. If you think that there is a direct mechanical linkage between the helm and the rudder i would think you are mistaken. Everything is normally fly buy wire.

Now i can tell you roughly how it works. And i do agree that it is a stretch to think that is what happened.

The control normally has some sort of potentiometer. Normally in a fly by wire system at least 3 for back up. Lets use the automotive sytem as an example. With something that has a center like a rudder 1/2 voltage would be center. So 5 volts in 2.5 out. A computer with it's software reads this and then engages a big servo or motor to move the rudder. The rudder has the same potentiometer set up on it and the computer is programmed to move the rudder to a position that matches the controls. Both potentiometers will basicly read the same.

Now it wouldn't take much to disable the comouter, which would disable the rudder. It also wouldn't take that much more to program the computer to do the opposite.

To take full control would require a bit more work.

You might not know it but for almost 20 years your car accelerator has worked that way. Starts at about .80 volts and goes to about 4.5 volts. Anything below .5 or above 4.8 is a fault recognized by the computer.

 

[_Windrider_]

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-navy-crash-china-idUSKCN1B20O2?il=0



Could they end up banning us from that area?

International waters. No they can't.

 

[308pirate]

Every vital system on a navy ship has local control override that eliminates electronics from the control loop and puts it back straight into mechanical or electro-mechanical (not digital) control.

But I guess you had to have been a BTDT type of guy, qualified in those systems operation, to know that. Conspiracy theorists needs not apply.

 

[2ndamendfan]

Every vital system on a navy ship has local control override that eliminates electronics from the control loop and puts it back straight into mechanical or electro-mechanical (not digital) control.

But I guess you had to have been a BTDT type of guy, qualified in those systems operation, to know that. Conspiracy theorists needs not apply.

I would hope so. By local i am assuming you mean at the servo/motor. Also are we talking a mechanical hand crank or another "touch pad". How fast could that be actived?

If you have ever experienced a total brake faliure you shit your pants before anything else. I am not suggesting that such systems wouldn't work. But with no warnings or flashing light how would they know to engage such systems instantly.

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

Every vital system on a navy ship has local control override that eliminates electronics from the control loop and puts it back straight into mechanical or electro-mechanical (not digital) control.

But I guess you had to have been a BTDT type of guy, qualified in those systems operation, to know that. Conspiracy theorists needs not apply.

The fly by wire systems world wide are not as bullet proof as BTDT types would have you believe. Ask Air Bus, Boeing, Ford, GM, P&W, GE, Cummins, Detroit Diesel, Cat, an even Eaton (wire shifted transmissions), how many anomalies they have had to contend with. Was it not FBY an servos that inverted many of Boeing's cattle cars. Those issues were proven to be from the drawing board, not systems trying to be owned. Odd folks in high places seem to be looking at 2 Sats, but as you state they may be or have been BTDT types.

 

[_Windrider_]

The fly by wire systems world wide are not as bullet proof as BTDT types would have you believe. Ask Air Bus, Boeing, Ford, GM, P&W, GE, Cummins, Detroit Diesel, Cat, an even Eaton (wire shifted transmissions), how many anomalies they have had to contend with. Was it not FBY an servos that inverted many of Boeing's cattle cars. Those issues were proven to be from the drawing board, not systems trying to be owned. Odd folks in high places seem to be looking at 2 Sats, but as you state they may be or have been BTDT types.

As a pilot of an airbus, I can tell you the FBW systems are very good and redundant. But like anything else, it can fail. But I can't remember the last incident report I read of a complete failure of all systems that wasn't caused by some moron pushing a button he wasn't supposed to.

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

As a pilot of an airbus, I can tell you the FBW systems are very good and redundant. But like anything else, it can fail. But I can't remember the last incident report I read of a complete failure of all systems that wasn't caused by some moron pushing a button he wasn't supposed to.

I love FBY no matter the conveyance/task, early entry's into the arena not so much. The issue I've always had is when life & Limb takes a back seat to R&D, then more so, when production begins. Actuary numbers, should not even be taken into account but they are.