Suppressors Another monotonous (yet relevant) thread with questions concerning trusts

[kapp_badbloodz]

Hello again,

As I delve deeper and deeper into the rabbit hole to find this unicorn they call a suppressor... some questions are coming to mind. I figured i'd leave it to the experts; the owners of such mystical beasts and ask them of their adventures to find this "trust".

Okay... for real. Here we go:

1) My suppressor is on order from my dealer. My main question is can I pregame the trust or will I need any information about the suppressor itself immediately(IE serial number/ID#/whatever they use to identify THAT single suppressor)

2) If so; does the attorney usually draft up the trust and then includes the necessary information at a later date?

3) I might have this all wrong... can I have the trust infinitely longer before I receive the NFA item and then add it to the list with the stamp?


I guess what you can say is I don't really understand the chronological order of what needs to happen. I know I want to use the trust route to obtain my item. I know I need to submit a package to ATF. But what exactly needs to happen for these steps to take place? I am trying to get legal advice from "legal" while im TDY overseas but they do not know much about this sort of stuff unfortunately. As you may have already noticed; I am trying to game this as much as possible so my wait time is done while I am away overseas and not sitting at home on my couch, cradling my rifle, rocking forward and backwards going crazy because I have to wait 6-10 months more. Might as well knock another 4 off that while im downrange right.


Please tell me that I am either crazy and must wait till I am back home OR that I am still crazy but it is in fact doable while I am overseas. I just want to get the trust started so that way everything is lined up.


Any advice for a first timer?

 

[ZombieMonkey]

1) Your trust needs to be in existence before you send out forms on that can, your dealer will require this as it will be transferred to the trust, not you.

2) You need to speak with your attorney or get familiar with whichever trust you use so that you are adding things to the trust properly, do not screw around with NFA items. If you do not understand how the trust works, please find a competent attorney as what someone says online will not save your ass in the unlikely event that you ever had to go to court, etc.

3) Get your trust NOW, you can add property, i.e. the suppressor, once the tax stamp has been returned.

 

[rancilio]

kapp,

Totally doable especially since you have already ordered your suppressor. Assuming "ordered" means paid for, once the dealer receives it on a Form 3, the suppressor is ready to Form 4 to your trust with you as a trustee. As Zombie wrote, you need your trust to send in with your Form 4 application. The Form 4 has your suppressor's unique info - sn, length, manufacturer. Depending on how your trust is set up, you may have a section or Schedule that will list your suppressor. You will likely get quite a few different answers regarding how and when to list your suppresor in your trust. Form 4s have been approved with specific items listed in the trust when the trust + Form 4 packet was sent in, and Form 4s have also been approved when the section or Schedule only had some inoculous item such as $1 listed without the specific item. In the end, after your Form 4 is approved, your trust needs to list your specific item... to the best of my knowledge and experience. I am not an attorney, and as Zombie wrote, speak to an attorney.

That said, I know how difficult it is to find a mil attorney that is NFA savey. If you find one, let me know.

 

[kapp_badbloodz]

What I find odd is they didnt say they wouldnt do it but they didnt say they would either. They just sent me a bunch of random ass information about Gun Docx which I have no idea what to do with... so I may just make an appointment and see what they will do for me. They can in fact do a trust but I dont know how that will suffice with NFA items. I know they use revocable living trusts (RLTs?) or some acronym. I just need to butter them up and see if they will do it.

However, that being said. I am 99% positive that the military does not want to cosign on NFA trusts and then having it backfire on the member making them liable since we (the member) sought council and they handled it wrong. That is if the member was not abusing his item.

kapp,

Totally doable especially since you have already ordered your suppressor. Assuming "ordered" means paid for, once the dealer receives it on a Form 3, the suppressor is ready to Form 4 to your trust with you as a trustee. As Zombie wrote, you need your trust to send in with your Form 4 application. The Form 4 has your suppressor's unique info - sn, length, manufacturer. Depending on how your trust is set up, you may have a section or Schedule that will list your suppressor. You will likely get quite a few different answers regarding how and when to list your suppresor in your trust. Form 4s have been approved with specific items listed in the trust when the trust + Form 4 packet was sent in, and Form 4s have also been approved when the section or Schedule only had some inoculous item such as $1 listed without the specific item. In the end, after your Form 4 is approved, your trust needs to list your specific item... to the best of my knowledge and experience. I am not an attorney, and as Zombie wrote, speak to an attorney.

That said, I know how difficult it is to find a mil attorney that is NFA savey. If you find one, let me know.

 

[rancilio]

However, that being said. I am 99% positive that the military does not want to cosign on NFA trusts and then having it backfire on the member making them liable since we (the member) sought council and they handled it wrong. That is if the member was not abusing his item.

kapp,
I think you are giving "the military" too much credit. If you are working with or even talked to somebody in the legal office, they might go as far helping you figure out what your trust can look like, but they will not come close to cosigning anything. I would even be surprised if they talk to you about a gun trust. Likely, they might notarize your trust and nothing more. What is this gun docx stuff they sent you?

 

[kapp_badbloodz]

What I meant by cosign was that they won't assemble it or anything. I am giving them some credit because some of them know their stuff. They openly told me they don't know a lot about them.

As far as this "gun docx" nonsense they sent me... I'll have to take some screen shots when I get home and post it up here. It seems like it just expresses how important a trust is.


Their sample trust is like 10 pages long :/

 

[Conrad101st]

Personally, I can't imagine any jag officer helping a service member with estate planning. It's outside the scope of their responsibility, I suspect. I could be wrong though.

Remember, a trust really is an estate planning tool and you just happen to want to place another asset (toy) into it just like the other assets (farm, house, stocks). Some people say don't use a real trust for NFA, but the logic escapes me.

 

[Oleshep]

I used this place 199trust and my C3 dealers has referred lots of people to them. I have 2 cans and a SBR in the trust with 4th can on order..

 

[Bjm0918]

Kapp...I'm in a similar spot as you waiting for my 30p-1 to be delivered from TBAC to my dealer so they can start the paperwork. I just had my trust drawn up two months ago and this will be my first can.

My experience from dealing with lawyers on various personal and business matters, always find one who specializes in what you are trying to accomplish even if they cost more. In the end you will be paying one way or another for the inexperienced lawyers education. This is especially true concerning NFA item because of the possible lengthy prison sentence that can result from faulty paperwork. Those few hundred bucks you saved won't seem worth it when you have to snuggle up to Bubba every night for the next ten years.

I found a reliable firm in my state that does hundreds of these. The lawyer spend a hour on the phone with me answering every one of my questions and got back to me with one he didn't have the answer to. From when I mailed the check, I had the final trust in my hands to be notarized in 8 days. I spent around $550. Not as cheap as some of the other online ones but far from outrageous. I also have the piece of mind that a few complex concerns were not issues. I received the lawyers 24 hour emergency hotline for any firearms related legal emergency which is awesome.

 

[HKpirate]

Please do not kill me for asking this but is the wait time shorter going this route I want to make the plunge into this as well with my first purchase being 3 cans figured id knock most of it out at once. Is this the way to go ? If this is a way to get it pushed through a little faster im all in. sorry for very rookie questions in your thread

 

[Conrad101st]

Probably not any different. Other than the fact you can skip the fingerprints and messing with the chief law enforcement signoff.

Every time I get a hankering for a toy, I just email a PDF of my corporate charter, a screen shot of my good standing with the Secretary of State, and a credit card number. That's all you need once you have a non human entity to purchase with.
This assumes he can still use Efile and also assumes the gig under the current rules.

 

[lwrkeysfisher]

kapp,
I think you are giving "the military" too much credit. If you are working with or even talked to somebody in the legal office, they might go as far helping you figure out what your trust can look like, but they will not come close to cosigning anything. I would even be surprised if they talk to you about a gun trust. Likely, they might notarize your trust and nothing more. What is this gun docx stuff they sent you?

My military legal office notarized the NFA trust my wife wrote for me no questions asked... They'll also write you a trust (that should work), but won't include any NFA specific language as it's outside of the enumerated things they are allowed to do.

 

[Conrad101st]

A notary is just saying that they are witnessing your signature. It has nothing to do with the validity or effect of an instrument.

 

[kapp_badbloodz]

Notary is fine. I will probably use this option as its free ^____^

Lots of good feedback here. I just need to contact a firm in PA that does this so I can get it on lockdown.

 

[kapp_badbloodz]

I will go with a lawyer that specifically specializes in NFA items. I can't afford to get caught with my pants down

 

[lwrkeysfisher]

That is a smart choice. Are you a PA resident? If not and you cannot find a reasonable NFA trust attorney in PA, look at your home state as well.

 

[Bjm0918]

Kapp. Pm me and I will tell you who I used. I'm in PA as well.

 

[kapp_badbloodz]

That is a smart choice. Are you a PA resident? If not and you cannot find a reasonable NFA trust attorney in PA, look at your home state as well.

Since I am military; I will be changing my state of residency from the Republic of California to PA. I am moving there when I get off this deployment.

Bj: shooting you a PM now and THANK YOU for the recommendation.